Confusion on Groups & Quality

worstje

Hey there,

First of all, if this is the wrong place to post, I'm sorry, but it seemed like the best one of the bunch. And second, I know similar topics have come by in the past, but the ones I found through the search were all 2+ years old, and this sort of thing has a moving characteristic to it.

I've started a personal project to catalogue all my digital One Piece materials, which are primarily fansubs, for long-term storage and enjoyment. (Yes, Funimation blah blah blah, streams blah blah blah, dvds blahblahblah. Let's move on by the alternative solutions people will undoubtedly offer and get straight to what I know I want to talk about.)

Nobody will argue that K-F is where it is at for early One Piece. I think they're upto 300 now.

Question 1. Late K-F and early Vegapunk overlap by several episodes. Which has the better quality? Vegapunk used to be 'it' for as far sub quality was concerned, and as such I am tempted to take them over K-F. Can anyone offer insights on this, especially translation-wise?

After Vegapunk, One Piece was in trouble for a while, and stuff got really fragmented. I know I have watched Vegapunk+(1080p) Raws, INP, Nakama Fansubs, Yonkou and Yibis at various points in time, and even some really crappy subs from ADC-Elites and UTSF. (Much love to those guys, I got my fix, but they're not a quality group.) Threads from 2007 till 2011… they all have very differing recommendations as to what one ought to watch.

Question 2. But as time passed, these groups have overlapped eachother a fair bit, some have died out, and others have been really inconsistent quality-wise. Can anyone recommend the best groups from Thriller Bark (ep 337+) till wherever Yibis runs out of serious competition?

Around some point (I think Amazon Lily?), Funimation started live-streaming. This is the point where I stopped following quality fansubs since a quick fix was available. They did a lot of things well, but some translation choices I just can't agree with.

Question 3. As such.. is Yibis indeed the best group starting at that point? I believe they're the only Fansubs with an own translator that is still keeping up (<3) but if there are better alternatives, I'd love to know.

Thanks for any answers all of you can help me out with! Also, I intend to keep my collection up-to-date as years pass by, so if I get answers I'll try to update this post with the 'better episode quality' developments that have popped up.

Little list of information collected so far
K-F 1-300
Vegapunk 301-342
Vanillapunk 343-378
Nakama 379-381
Yibis 382-538

Notable borkings
K-F episodes 210-260 are in SD while HD ought to be available at some point.
Yibis refused to release filler episodes 428 & 429.
Yibis has no 492 either because it is a boring non-canon crossover with Toriko.

Demon Rin

@worstje:

Nobody will argue that K-F is where it is at for early One Piece. I think they're upto 300 now.

Wrong.

If you like edited material A-la 4kids then yes, K-F are the best. They edited the video a few times to basically do a Reverse-4kids and make a few scenes more Violent. Specifically, they added blood to the Bon Kurei Vs. Sanji fight.

Dreamer

K-F 1-300
Vegapunk 301-342
Vanillapunk 343-378
Nakama 379-381
Yibis 382-538

For me at least.
And i foresee this will turn into another k-f hate thread.

worstje

@Demon:

Wrong.

If you like edited material A-la 4kids then yes, K-F are the best. They edited the video a few times to basically do a Reverse-4kids and make a few scenes more Violent. Specifically, they added blood to the Bon Kurei Vs. Sanji fight.

I recall hearing about that in the past, and I've practically forgotten about it. Got a link to a list of such changes? Or alternatively, tell me what other group comes close to their quality releases?

That said… I don't think all of such minor edits are bad. For example, if they ever reach the Thriller Bark Oz fight, there's some shading mistakes they could fix up where part of Oz was accidentally coloured as if it were background.

@Dreamer:

K-F 1-300
Vegapunk 301-342
Vanillapunk 343-378
Nakama 379-381
Yibis 382-538

Now that's useful. It's a shame there's 3 episodes worth of Nakama in there out of a consistency point of view, but given that I expected to see three more groups in the list, that looks really good.

@Dreamer:

And i foresee this will turn into another k-f hate thread.

Agreed, I can see it happening but I hope people won't derail the subject like that. Please folks, don't go hating on K-F. They have carried more than their share of awesome subs for us. Although this does remind me…

Starting at K-F episode 210, they switched back down to SD with a crappy codec whereas the first three in the new HD format were indeed encoded in a 720P format with better colours. This goes on until episode 260, and starting at 261 they are back at the 720p resolution. Or in list format...

SD: 001-208 (all in 4:3 format, so nothing wrong with that.)
HD: 207-209
SD: 210-260 (WHY?!?!)
HD: 261+

Is there anyone who can tell me why this is? While I don't care much for the arcs (except for Water 7) that those 51 episodes are a part of, I do want a consistent quality. I know that once upon a time, I watched those episodes in HD, so I really wonder what motivates K-Fs decision there. And does anyone know of a group with better encodes that might be a good replacement for K-F there?

Demon Rin

@worstje:

I recall hearing about that in the past, and I've practically forgotten about it. Got a link to a list of such changes? Or alternatively, tell me what other group comes close to their quality releases?

That said… I don't think all of such minor edits are bad. For example, if they ever reach the Thriller Bark Oz fight, there's some shading mistakes they could fix up where part of Oz was accidentally coloured as if it were background.

It's still altering the art as it was originally presented. Saying "Well, it's ok to edit the video" is equivalent to saying "Well, 4kids didn't really do anything bad to the series".

@worstje:

Starting at K-F episode 210, they switched back down to SD with a crappy codec whereas the first three in the new HD format were indeed encoded in a 720P format with better colours. This goes on until episode 260, and starting at 261 they are back at the 720p resolution. Or in list format…

SD: 001-208 (all in 4:3 format, so nothing wrong with that.)
HD: 207-209
SD: 210-260 (WHY?!?!)
HD: 261+

Is there anyone who can tell me why this is? While I don't care much for the arcs (except for Water 7) that those 51 episodes are a part of, I do want a consistent quality. I know that once upon a time, I watched those episodes in HD, so I really wonder what motivates K-Fs decision there. And does anyone know of a group with better encodes that might be a good replacement for K-F there?

It most likely has something to do with the fact that while 207+ were animated in HD, HD Raws of those episodes were not released online for a very very long time. Before 261, One Piece Raws were simply not released in HD. They were released in Widescreen at that point but still in SD.
There is some debate about whether or not they originally aired in "EDTV" (SD but in Widescreen) and that's why there were only SD rips, or if it was aired in HD but nobody thought to Rip it in HD until 261.

They most likely got their hands on HD Raws for 207+ now (Probably thanks to a re-run of the show or something) and are going back and re-releasing those episodes in HD. But since they're no doubt more focussed on where they currently are in the plot (300) and K-F typically take quite a bit of time to do releases in General, they haven't gotten past 210 in this HD re-release.

worstje

@Demon:

It's still altering the art as it was originally presented. Saying "Well, it's ok to edit the video" is equivalent to saying "Well, 4kids didn't really do anything bad to the series".

That depends on what you expect to receive, I suppose. (And even then I reckon comparing any party to the 4kids abuse is a huuuge stretch.) Do you want the One Piece series Toei released, or do you want the One Piece series that most closely matches the manga?

I personally feel that Toei makes plenty of mistakes in how they adopt the source material, and in that sense that they are no better than 4Kids nor Funimation: all of them make edits and decisions as to how best represent the material for their viewers. They leave out blood, or they add in extra scenes to explain manga plotholes.

Fansubbers do not have the resources any of the above 3 have, so subtitles is generally where they are limited. K-F will no doubt make bad decisions, but if they want to fix the odd visual error like a miscoloured limb or lacking blood.. I won't complain. Those are fixes, 'v2's so to speak. If they start adding or removing scenes, changing names and essentially make changes that do not change the material into something closer to the source manga material, then I will start complaining.

Hell, members on this forum have 'Abridged' projects where all stretching and filler is cut out to really closely resemble the manga. And people are praising those few folk doing it big time. If those people had the raw editing materials to work with, so that scene transitions weren't such a disaster audio-wise, I could probably stomach and enjoy them. But to me those limitations ruin it, so I settle for 'the original anime with minor edits that bring the whole closer to the source manga material'.

@Demon:

It most likely has something to do with the fact that while 207+ were animated in HD, HD Raws of those episodes were not released online for a very very long time. Before 261, One Piece Raws were simply not released in HD. They were released in Widescreen at that point but still in SD.
There is some debate about whether or not they originally aired in "EDTV" (SD but in Widescreen) and that's why there were only SD rips, or if it was aired in HD but nobody thought to Rip it in HD until 261.

They most likely got their hands on HD Raws for 207+ now (Probably thanks to a re-run of the show or something) and are going back and re-releasing those episodes in HD. But since they're no doubt more focussed on where they currently are in the plot (300) and K-F typically take quite a bit of time to do releases in General, they haven't gotten past 210 in this HD re-release.

Thanks for that explanation, it's useful to know. :) I'll keep an eye out for any new releases they end up doing for these episodes.

Demon Rin

@worstje:

That depends on what you expect to receive, I suppose. (And even then I reckon comparing any party to the 4kids abuse is a huuuge stretch.) Do you want the One Piece series Toei released, or do you want the One Piece series that most closely matches the manga

The only problem with that is, the main edit I cite from K-F was made to a sequence that Toei added completely and had No equivalent sequence to in the manga. All of the actual manga parts from that fight were presented by Toei faithfully.

If K-F's aim was just "To correct mistakes" and "Make it closer to the manga", why did they not edit Bon Krei's back to say "Crossdresser"? No, they left every mistake and alteration Toei made into the show, but suddenly went "Lets make this fight bloodier for no reason whatsoever."

@worstje:

I personally feel that Toei makes plenty of mistakes in how they adopt the source material, and in that sense that they are no better than 4Kids nor Funimation: all of them make edits and decisions as to how best represent the material for their viewers. They leave out blood, or they add in extra scenes to explain manga plotholes.

Ok, no. FUNimation's release is ENTIRELY uncut, and thanks to K-Fs odd decisions, it is now the ONLY source to consistently release the series uncut since they started their DVD releases. Because K-F decided to edit some of their releases, they cannot claim to be "Uncut" and therefore FUNimation's release is the only source in which the content of the episodes is completely 100% faithful to the original broadcast.

FUNimation presents the material exactly as it's presented in the material Toei presented.

@worstje:

Fansubbers do not have the resources any of the above 3 have, so subtitles is generally where they are limited. K-F will no doubt make bad decisions, but if they want to fix the odd visual error like a miscoloured limb or lacking blood.. I won't complain. Those are fixes, 'v2's so to speak. If they start adding or removing scenes, changing names and essentially make changes that do not change the material into something closer to the source manga material, then I will start complaining.

But that's the thing. They have never fixed an actual "Error". They left all the major mistakes in, even the two Zoros in the Davy Back Fight. All they've ever done edit wise is make things bloodier for no reason whatsoever. That's the exact same thing 4Kids did just in reverse. 4Kids tried to make it too kiddy and K-F tried to make it too adult.

@worstje:

Hell, members on this forum have 'Abridged' projects where all stretching and filler is cut out to really closely resemble the manga. And people are praising those few folk doing it big time. If those people had the raw editing materials to work with, so that scene transitions weren't such a disaster audio-wise, I could probably stomach and enjoy them. But to me those limitations ruin it, so I settle for 'the original anime with minor edits that bring the whole closer to the source manga material'.

But those are flat out advertised as "Abridged". There is complete transparency, you know you're getting something edited because it's right there in the title.

K-F claim to just be releasing a fansub, and claim their releases are uncut which they very plainly are not. Not all of them at least.

And again, the parts they added blood too were NOT IN THE MANGA. They added blood to a bit Toei added. Toei, to their credit, had blood in all the places blood should have been when compared to the Manga. K-F just layered more blood on to make it more violent for the sake of making it more violent.

Darkstorm

Basically what dreamer said. Except that funi would be my preferred choice for the dvd episodes they've covered so far(can't say the same for their web episodes though. the quality of funi's web subbing has been rather sub-par).

KF did like two edits from memory - the blood one, which was stupid, and editing an ending of an arabasta ep to mirror the original japanese TV ending(the dvd ending which they worked have had been changed by toei). Say about two minutes total out of 300 eps? Not really a big deal.

Dark Ren

It is just some edit of 10 seconds or something. Not a big deal. Those who complain just take this matter way too seriously. If they don`t like it then go find somewhere else. I believe those who complain still archive K-F episode in their DVD / HDD. Thanks to K-F I can watch One Piece for a great quality.

And I agree with what dreamer said, K-F, Vegapunk and Yibis are the best fansubs out there. I can`t say a thing about the gap between Vegapunk and Yibis. I like flashy subtitle, so maybe my taste is not the same with yours. And since K-F and Vegapunk overlapping each other, you can pick either K-F or Vegapunk. It is all yours

worstje

I stand corrected on the nature of the K-F edits, then. :) But regardless, I still think they're the best choice since I am basing my collection on fansubs that I can download as opposed to DVDs with even crappier quality I'd need to rip. :)

Demon Rin

@worstje:

I stand corrected on the nature of the K-F edits, then. :) But regardless, I still think they're the best choice since I am basing my collection on fansubs that I can download as opposed to DVDs with even crappier quality I'd need to rip. :)

why do the DVDs have "crappy quality"?

Crossword

Well, from what I've watched of the DVDs, artifacts crop up very often because the masters given weren't top quality.

Demon Rin

I've never seen any artifacting, can you post an example?

worstje

DVD uses the MPEG2 standard for video compression. It looks crap for even for old SD stuff, but for modern stuff it is totally atrocious. Given the fact that anime have clear lines, it is the absolutely wrong wrong wrong sort of compression if you don't want very messed up video streams.

Crossword

Sure, I actually posted an example in the animation thread a while back: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/695/artifactc.png/

There were times when the whole screen would look like that for a second or two. Not a deal-breaker for me personally, but it is very noticeable and I can see how it would be distracting to some.

worstje

That's a nice example, Crossword. :) Now imagine how that butchers the Davy Back Fight and beyond arcs which are downscaled to SD resolution from a more HD-oriented style that has way more detail on it. Details that survive the resizing will get butchered a second time by the outdated MPEG2 codec.

Demon Rin

Uum, FUNi has confirmed they have the Native HD Masters for the DBF+, so we're probably getting Blu-rays.

worstje

Which I'd still need to 1) wait for, and 2) rip. I hate discs, they're not accessible enough for my tastes. :) But it is good that Funi gets the Native HD Masters at least.

sukitha

Are yibis translations accurate? Read in the one piece wiki that their translations are localized somewhat. :wassat:
Eg: Navy instead of marines. (don't understand why they'd use navy when the ships are clearly marked as Marine)
I don't care about karaoke and stuff like that. If the translations are accurate and the video quality is good that's enough for me. Can someone suggest me a good fansub? Downloaded episode 543 from CCS and their video quality is pretty good and the translations seems to be using the correct terms.
Should I stick with yibis or switch to CCS?

Dreamer

Yibis,Yibis.
But if you like nakama,marines and stuff then you wont like them.

sukitha

Just want the sub to be accurate as possible.

Demon Rin

Then go for any sub that doesn't use "Nakama" and you should be good.

evilvanessafan

@Demon:

Then go for any sub that doesn't use "Nakama" and you should be good.

there are no sub groups anymore that use that word, the last one was nakama-fansubs and even they only used it between the straw hats themself…

OPF

I don´t know wether it´s the right thread for it, but since you all mentioned that Vegapunks releases are the best, I wonder if there is still a working torrent for their releases, because on Nyaa torrents the status for the episodes seems to be unknown.

Dark Ren

Go to Yibis homepage. They released a batch torrent for 1-516, all Vegapunk eps included

prada

I noticed that Yibis translates Haki. Are their any groups from 417 onwards that don't translate it?

Skull Kid

@prada:

I noticed that Yibis translates Haki. Are their any groups from 417 onwards that don't translate it?

Yibis isn't translating Haki anymore I don't think. They keep it as Haki and have been doing that for some time. Is Yibis still the best fansub group for new episodes by the way?

Galaxy 9000

@Skull:

Yibis isn't translating Haki anymore I don't think. They keep it as Haki and have been doing that for some time. Is Yibis still the best fansub group for new episodes by the way?

They're the only fansub group that's up to date, so yes.

Skull Kid

@Galaxy:

They're the only fansub group that's up to date, so yes.

Ok thanks. Does anyone know if Yibis has done any blood edits (adding blood or turning spit into blood) like KF did in the Sanji vs Bon Kurei fight, or if they have done any other edits of note? I know for sure that in episode 630, Yibis changed some text on a map of Dress Rosa and Green Bit from Japanse to English, which is a video edit. Doesn anyone know of any other edits? I still use KF and Yibis and appreciate their work, I just want to know if any other edits are known.