I would say that design-wise Carrot looks exactly like a generic "rabbit-girl" anyone would draw if asked to. Chopper is a very specific Oda-way to design a reindeer with humanoid features. That's the difference for me.
Chopper looks exactly like what anyone would draw if you asked them to draw a reindeer plushy, the actual purpose of his main design/form.
I leave this thread for a few days, and suddenly there was a war over blond hair?
The second most common hair colour in OP being the second most common hair colour on the crew is not a big deal. And even then, Oda made them have different shades of blond.
Purely coincidence
I'm sure if it were an colored comic full time Robin would have purple or dark blue hair, and Usopp would have dark brown or something. But as a predominately black and white manga, of COURSE a huge chunk of them are going to have black hair. That's just part of the medium. If it were straight to anime or Oda used more ziptone, it'd be a different matter.
I thought Robin's hair was suppose to have purple highlights? At least I thought I remembered some old color spreads that had some dark purple highlights.
Usopp… now there's an interesting situation because Oda does have a case that he could make Usopp a blond or even brown later in life. XD now to divert the thread…. just look at his dad, Yasopp. When Shanks first met him, Yasopp had black hair despite his early appearances had him dark blond. .... then years later he gets dreadlocks a, in the anime they look more brown than blond.
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manga vs anime
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Either Yasopp can naturally go through the spectrum (skipping red by going black-brown-blond) or we have a case first evidence of Clairol existing in OP.
@Count:
Furry animal-like. I would give Carrot more of a chance if she were at least, say, a reptile, bird, amphibian, etc. But no, she's a talking furry animal part of the race that Luffy literally called "an island full of Choppers". A rabbit and reindeer have fur, small triangle noses, and mouth shapes in common according to Oda's art-style.
The problem with your argument is that because she looks like an animal, she shouldn't be considered a valid SH candidate. I'm assuming you made that same assumption before Chopper joined, right? That he wasn't a human, so he wouldn't join. I seriously doubt it, but the point is, there's nothing from the current design of either that shows them looking alike. They have the same nose shape. That’s it. Sanji and Zoro share the same nose/mouth shapes. So, one of them shouldn't have joined? I doubt you'd agree to that either. Point is, if her nose was slightly different and her hair was a different color, that would suddenly make her a more viable candidate?
But that hasn't even been my main argument. My main argument is that Chopper has several other physical traits that make him more unique than talking male reindeer, whereas Carrot's design is solely defined as talking female rabbit. The former is Oda's occasional attempt at making a main character standout in the entire manga. The latter is introducing a supporting character of the arc that can fade in the midst of a background with whatever faction they belong to.
Just looking at Chopper himself (set aside his different forms for a sec since he spends 99.9% of the time in his base form), he's a little talking reindeer with a buckle on one antler and a blue nose. That's it. If you call Carrot a talking female rabbit, Chopper can be broken down as a talking male reindeer. Anything is simple if you break it down. There are plenty of distinctions between the two, not just physically, but from a background perspective as well. But because her nose is shaped the same as Chopper and her hair color matches another SH, she can’t possibly be considered a serious candidate (unless her mouth looked slightly different and her hair was a different color)?
The fact they have this sibling relationship clearly illustrates how Oda is having fun with how similar they look. As seen in Robby's images. Chopper and Usopp already have brotherly relationship at that, so this would only be a redundant dynamic on the ship.
It isn't redundant. She's been overly friendly to everyone by running around hugging them, biting them, and cheering them on. This isn't about her replacing Usopp. It's about her forming a bond with a SH, which she's done not just with Chopper, but everyone else. Yes, that’s a familiar trait among her race, but it’s unique compared to the SHs.
The only trait you kept pointing out is that she's a rabbit.
"White fur". "Long ears". "Big bushy tail". "Pink nose."
Rabbit. Rabbit. Rabbit. Rabbit.
They are synonymous. Whenever I describe Chopper's traits, I don't only say that he has antlers, brown fur, or hooves. Although those traits certainly stood out when he was the only talking animal in the series pre-timeskip aside from the Fishmen. When I describe Chopper's traits, I say:
"Broken antler." "Chibi mascot size." "Blue nose." "Pink top hat with white X." "Seven different transformations."
Correct. She's based on a rabbit. Distinct in many ways from everyone else in the crew. Chopper can be broken much the same way you just did. Antlers, brown fur, hooves. Of course, there's more to him than that, which you've mentioned. Carrot would be the same if you took into consideration that, amongst the SHs, she physically separate from everyone else (she's a mink, no one else is) regardless of what you would consider too similar to other characters. She uses a gauntlet, likes biting people, can generate electro (or are you still assuming Chopper can use electro?), can use sulong (still assuming Chopper can learn this too?), etc. Yes, there's technically some overlap if you're looking at things in a basic sense, but none of those things are exact matches within the crew. Multiple SHs can use fire, transform, etc.
Would you use any of those traits I mentioned to describe he average reindeer? No. In fact, I want you to go on Google Images right now. Type in "blue nosed reindeer" and tell me what the very FIRST image result is. Then type in "pink nosed rabbit" and tell me the first THIRTY image results for that are. Don't worry, I have a feeling you won't have to type as much as that sounds. This is why you can't use her basic stereotypical rabbit traits to say she has a unique design compared to how much quirky creativity Oda put into all of the other Straw Hats.
Haha! I'm not doing that. You're talking about one part of their anatomy. Google long nose, orange hair, swirly eyebrow. You'll get a bunch of useless pics. Most of her traits line up with rabbits because she's supposed to resemble one. Most of Chopper's traits line up with reindeer because he's supposed to resemble one. Even throwing out her physical appearance, she still has enough distinguishing things about her personality or traits that would make her different from other SHs.
But wait, I know what you're going to say next. Carrot's rabbit traits are still unique from the other crew members and the Minks. This is technically true. But a key point I keep bringing up in this discussion is how Oda puts unique quirks into his character designs that make them stand out.
Besides her physical perks, how many other SHs fight with a gauntlet (this isn't about other minks, just the SHs)? How many of them can generate electricity from their own bodies? How many of them seemingly enjoy biting and hugging other people? How many of them can harness a full moon and use a special ability? Differences are there even if you choose not to look or think they’re good enough by Oda’s standards.
Robin is not just another Nami clone, she has a unique nose bridge, irises, had definitive cowgirl attire in her first appearance, shoulder-length hair, and spawns multiple limbs from thin air.
Franky is not just a cyborg, a light blue pompadour and aloha shirt/sunglasses like Ace Ventura, blue star tattoos on his Popeye-shaped forearms, a metal nose, a speedo without any pants to cover his hairy legs, a three triangle-shaped chin.Brook is not just a talking skeleton, he has an afro, Victorian suit, small top hat, a cane sword, plays the violin, drinks tea, and is extremely thin/tall.
Jinbe is not just a fishman, he has a two sharp teeth poking out his mouth like an oni, big nose, fat body shape, red sun brand mark on chest, two gold streaks in his topknot hair, a kimono with a cape, wooden sandals, thick goatee, lightning-shaped scar on one eye, tidal gold tsunami-shaped eyebrows/sideburns, and makes martial arts poses.
I'll copy and paste the first four male Straw Hats from a couple pages ago too for your convenience:
Luffy: Straw hat, vest, shorts, sandals, constantly stretches his body, scar on right cheek
Zoro: Three katana, three earrings on right ear, green hair, green haramaki belly warmer, dark bandana usually wrapped around right arm
Usopp: Long nose, frilly hair, large lips, three eyelashes per eye, only person to wear goggles/satchel/slingshot/overalls
Sanji: Blonde hair, hair covering one eye, curly eyebrows, light goatee, smokes cigarettes, business suitIf you were describing this crew to someone who didn't read One Piece and threw in Carrot, do you really think they would be able to point her out as not being the SH or unique enough? I've already given you enough things that distinguishes her from everyone else.
Any similarities the other Straw Hats have at the time they joined the crew are EXTREMELY minor at best, and had more than enough unique design traits to make up for them. Unlike Carrot's design resume only having "RABBIT" written all over it like on her shirt.
Again, her distinction as a mink (and the characteristics that come with her being a relative of the rabbit) are still enough to make her unique against the rest of the crew. Her hair is a similar color to another SH's and her nose is similar to another's. Those seem like extremely minor similarities to me considering everything else about her is unique compared to them.
She is only distinct as a rabbit. You have still yet to name any physical trait she has that is neither one the average rabbit already has nor a hair color that a Straw Hat already has.
For the 50th time, her being based on a rabbit still separates her from the rest of the SHs. You keep going back to the hair and nose well, but I've already given you plenty of other physical traits she has that no one else does. You can say, "Well, she's based on a rabbit," but that fact doesn't disqualify any of her physical rabbit traits or anything else (her guantlet, personality quirk for hugging/biting regardless of if other minks do it, none of the SHs do).
It does matter when every single Straw Hat stood out in the island they were introduced in. Jinbe is unique from every fishman, and not just because he is the only one themed after whale sharks. Chopper was the only talking animal on Drum, and has unique traits in his design aside from having reindeer descent.
There's no reason to assume that Oda will continue down that trope given what he did with Jinbe. he was introduced on a completely different island and he still hasn't join. Oda has already broken that trait, so there's no reason to assume that since she didn't stand out on Zou that she never would, especially because Zou wasn't the end point of some great conflict. Would you agree that she's had a lot more relevance during WCI? Now, what if she has even more at Wano?
I wouldn't bring up Yonji because Sanji already joined the crew. If Sanji didn't join the crew, he might be as probable a candidate as Carrot. Although I would doubt him just the same because of his green hair being similar to Zoro. And yes, I would TOTALLY bring up Viola (along with Hancock) looking too much like Robin. What makes you think I wouldn't use these comparisons? Of course I would.
I only brough up Yonji because of his green hair and propensity for getting into an argument with Sanji just like Zoro. We're in agreement of the Viola/Hancock/Robin paradigm.
Do you think I have some sort of bias towards Chopper's design exclusively? I am comparing Carrot to every crew member, not only Chopper. Chopper just happens to be the one she happens to share the most similarities with. She stands out compared to everybody else aside from Sanji and Brook's hair/body colors. Every new Straw Hat needs unique design features that stand out compared to their race (being a rabbit Mink is just as "unique" as being a dog or cat Mink) and already existing crew members. You keep spinning this into some sort of criticism about how if a straw hat
She has fur and a similar nose when compared to Chopper. How many SHs have the same skin color and a regular nose? Zoro, Sanji, Nami, Robin, and Usopp don't stand out agains their race. By comparison, they're extremely plain. As I've said about Jinbe, compared to the SHs, no one is even close to him, but when you compare him to other fishmen, he blends in just like Carrot does. That's why I say compare them to the SHs only, not their race.
Yes, none of the Straw Hats are rabbits. They're not dogs, cats, leopards, lions, or bears either. Thus, I think it's reasonable to assume that (assuming deaths are null as usual) Nekomamushi, Inurashi, Wanda, Pedro, Pekoms, and Bepo are all fair game for joining the crew in Wano Country. Everyone is saying that Carrot can get more character development there, right? So can they! And you know what sounds even more unique than maroon eyes you would barely see the color of? A third eye! Maybe Pudding can stow away on the Thousand Sunny like Carrot did. Assuming that ship is still in one piece, of course.
No, they aren't. I'm not gonna spend much time on this one since none of them have endured everything that Carrot has up to this point, besides the fact that none of them (besides Carrot) have expressed any interest in traveling with the SHs or being curious about the larger world.
Let's keep this topic on character design rather than using her personality to compensate for that. Not that she has much personality to compensate with aside from being energetically carefree and dreaming of high seas adventures like Luffy, Chopper, and Usopp. Hence why she keeps joining on their group gags. But hey, maybe that one girly drawing gag out of nowhere can be expanded upon. Even though Usopp is already a good artist and drew the ship's flag.
As I've said, amongst the crew, she's the only one that hugs and bites randomly, is apparently obsessed with carrots and is willing to kill for them, has to be patted on the head to calm down, draws everyone as if they're a woman, can apparently float in the air without using geppo, fights with a gauntlet (again, amongst the SH crew itself), etc. How many can you think of for Jinbe? Does he pass this personality test?
No, let's keep this on the topic of Oda's character design style and source of inspiration. Oda obviously didn't simply make a talking reindeer, but his own specialized talking reindeer with unique design traits. Therefore, it is completely fair to compare those attributes to Carrot, who lacks any semblance of unique design traits outside of being a talking rabbit.
But if Carrot was pink and had blue hair, that would make her a viable candidate despite all of your other preconceived objections about her? That isn't a question you need to respond to, but I find it interesting that you could then overlook her similar nose to Chopper or her general "rabbit" look.
Gender making Carrot unique is irrelevant when there are already two female crew members, unless she were eventually identify as non-binary or steal Ivankov's Devil Fruit for gender fluidity. That "generic human" doesn't work because humans are the standard status-quo for the series since East Blue. It is the fictional races exclusive to One Piece's world that are meant to be unique gimmicks for a single crew member respectively. It isn't different from black is the basic neutral hair color Oda uses for four Straw Hats while everybody else has a unique hair color.
There are two female members of the crew who, again, by design are extremely generic compared to other female characters in the OP universe. Look at Nami and Robin and compare them to Brulee, Miss Monday, Miss Doublefinger, etc. Considering that, Carrot is drastically more distinct that Nami and Robin (people she should be compared to). That why characters like Viola and even Pudding were never serious candidates for me. A vision DF and a third eye wouldn't be enough to make them visually distinct when they are in a setting with Nami and Robin.
When all you have are similar traits and barely any unique traits, that's a problem for an artist as creative as Oda.
Carrot's main problem isn't even that she is a rabbit girl, but that she is ONLY a rabbit girl. This is how you know Oda didn't spend twenty years constantly redesigning her like he did with the other Straw Hats if you look at the One Piece datebook green Straw Hat Pirates concept art made before the series started. Chopper is more than a reindeer boy in comparison. Oda thought that a rabbit girl would be a fun and fitting supporting character for a fairy tale-themed arc, and he sketched her up in a couple hours at most.Again, black is the default hair color Technically, black is the absence of color. Every true color that you see along the rainbow's spectrum is only used for one crew member.
Name one unique thing about Carrot's design compared to all of the Straw Hats that is not "different species". I bet you can only clawed gloves like the other Minks.
At this point, I feel like I've gone through the list countless times. When we first met jinbe, he stood out from every other character we had seen at Impel Down. At FI, however, he didn't seem so unique at all. He lost a log o his visual appeals among the other fish people. That's what happened to Carrot. Rather than appearing somewhere like dressrosa, she appeared among her people, which may have reduce her overall impact, but she's still stands out against the SH crew, which is ultimately the bigger point (queue the Sanji/Chopper stuff again).
I emphasize the physical traits because that is what she shares in common with Chopper. If she had a top hat like Chopper, or if she wore a business suit like Sanji, I would also bring that up. And staying in the crow's nest is not a design trait.
She has fur and a similar shaped nose. She doesn't have antlers or a blue nose. She doesn't wear a pink hat. She's not a deer or a reindeer. She's not brown. She has hair. She's a mink. I've gone through the list already.
Why are you taking a Straw Hat's unique physical traits and swapping them for another? It doesn't matter if they all look the same if you strip down their uniqueness. The point in Oda's creativity is that they have these unique details to begin with. Unique details that are more than "different species". One of Chopper's most unique details is being mostly brown fur and one of Brook's most unique details is being mostly white. Combining them does not make for unique trait that makes her creatively stand out in a character lineup. It only draws comparisons like what I'm doing now.
I did that because you're associating blond hair with Sanji and a button nose with chopper, never mind the fact that while those things may be unique to them among the crew, they also have other overlapping physical or social characteristics.
You know what neither Nami nor Robin's designs do? Rip off the guys. I don't see Nami having blonde hair or Sanji having orange hair. I don't see Robin having the same nose as Usopp or vice-versa. I don't see either of them wearing aloha shirts but having flower patterns instead of palm trees. No, they still have their distinct flavors despite not looking anywhere as fun or wacky as the guys.
Again, I've already addressed this. She's not ripping anybody off. Hair color is not unique within the crew and neither are noses. Those are shared across multiple SHs. Her sharing a similar hair color to Sanji should be no more disqualifying for her than it would be for any SH with black hair.
Overlapping similarities should disqualify them. This is a crew that looks as vibrant as a circus (unfortunately that means they need a hideous circus ship too). You don't have you own unique shtick? They're not sharing the main spotlight. But you can't change those unique traits, and they have more than only one or two unique traits. That is the point I am making.
Again, even if you look at her and compare her to the crew both physically and from a personality perspective, she's unique enough. Would she be Oda's best example of a NN candidate that we’ve ever seen? Nope, but enough distinction already exists when comparing her to everyone else.
You are correct. But Jinbe has the most unique details going into his design that are not solely aquatic animal-based. Oni teeth, gold tidal wave eyebrows/hair, topknot hairstyle with two gold streaks, wooden sandals, fat body, plump nose, a red sun brand on his chest, and makes martial arts poses aside from Kuroobi, Hack, and Koala (who are all inferior when it comes to Fishman Karate prowess). He is not just the whale shark Fishman, he is the fat oni yakuza boss whale shark fishman.
The Fishmen looking that unique are a testament to how much effort Oda put into their design compared to the Minks in my opinion. Aside from the chieftains' cool designs, Pekoms' pink mafia suit, and maybe Pedro aside from his blonde hair and cigarettes, they all have that boring musketeer shtick for their attire. But even then, there are some among them that have more unique design traits than Carrot, like Sicilian having a red beard.Right. I agree that he's distinct enough, but among the rest of the weird fishmen we saw, he lost some of him uniqueness. That's the same thing we have with Carrot. We've already seen Nekomamushi, so she's lost some of her shine, just like Jinbe did when we saw the NFP or Fisher Tiger or Vander Decken. Again, Oda has always shown a penchant for making his male characters extremely dynamic. His female characters are much simpler by design. That's why I'm saying a simple design for Carrot would fall in line with that practice. By comparison, there are only a handful of uniquely designed female characters compared to the male characters.
I thought we were talking about character designs, not personalities. There is nothing about Carrot's design that alludes to her tomboyish personality. Maybe that would work if she looked more androgynous (not that tomboys have to look androgynous, but it is the common visual indicator fiction likes to use). Such as having hair as short as Luffy and Zoro, and not wearing a dress. She looks just as feminine as Nami, Robin, and every princess we've seen.
How about the fact that she's never looked afraid? Nami, Chopper, Brook, and Usopp freak out in the face of danger. She doesn't. When it came to going to WCI, saving the Vinsmokes, fighting that centipede at sea, or going after Katakuri, she's never hesitated to engage in combat. The fact that she's ready to throw down when the opportunity presents itself says that she doesn't mind getting dirty.
Having blonde hair like Sanji and a nose/mouth like Chopper is neither masculine nor feminine. I have no idea where you're going with this. They're gender neutral derivative traits, end of story.
If they're gender neutral, then why do you keep saying she has too much in common with the male characters (including Brook for some reason).
Anyway, curse you for dragging me down this rabbit hole (pun intended)! Feel free to respond if you'd like, but I think I've made my point.
Just to give some context to my overall rationale for Carrot potentially joining, my main reasoning is not based on any of the physical arguments we've been having. It's not even based on the Pedro revelations or how unique she is among the crew. The main reason why is from a narrative standpoint, we're far closer to the end of the series than we are to the beginning.
The SHs are about to face their biggest test of the entire series. It will have the biggest impact in the series besides Luffy finding OP or the final war. With that being the case, it's inconceivable to think that a new SH will be allowed to join the SHs immediately after Wano unless it's someone who's journeyed with them and made sacrifices along the way. Someone who was unique enough from the rest of the crew and strong enough to help them in the last push of their journey. As someone else said, any new character joining after Wano would be like someone hitching their wagon to a winning team, which I completely agree with.
So, you may say, "Maybe someone at Wano will join!" First of all, they would've missed out on everything pre-time skip and everything post-timeskip, including their toughest test yet of invading an emperor’s territory, stealing poneglyghs, facing an emperor's crew, and more. Second, these are all of the major players that we'll be seeing at Wano.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Franky, Brook, Jinbei, Carrot, Law, Law's crew, Momo, Kinemon, Kajuro, Raizo, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Marco, Kaido, The Shogun, Sheepshead, Ginrummy, Scotch, Jack, the two other calamities, X Drake, Apoo, Hawkins, Kidd, and possibly Weevil, Moriah, and Caesar.
In effect, there's no room for a major SH candidate to show up and have a place in that arc given who we already know will be involved (again, a new candidate wouldn't have been present at Zou or WCI). If we look at Carrot, she's already been established, and subsequent to that, she has a reason for seeing the SHs succeed given Pedro’s will. Also, having a mink be present in the future PKs crew (given the fact that the SHs and minks fates are now linked because of the road poneglyghs and their mutual alliance against Kaido).
From a narrative standpoint, she just makes the most sense. Is she designed as uniquely as she could be? Nope. But given the fact that I believe the last SH has to join before the end of Wano, there's no other candidate or potential that makes sense.
Anyway, I've stated my piece. Thanks for the engaging discussion.
Clearly, Carrot can't compete against these amazing designs…
/s
Purely coincidence
Clearly, Carrot can't compete against these amazing designs…
Context? lol.
You're not acknowledging about 20 years of evolution in Oda's character design.
Nami and Robin were unique when they were introduced, Carrot is not.
Nami is still more unique than Carrot, the red hair, the tattoo, the log pose and the eccentric dresses she wears now are enough to distinguish her from other human females. Carrot has not the same amount of unique/personal features to distinguish her from the other minks.
Every personal feature Carrot has is related to the fact that she is a rabbit mink, the same way every personal feature other minks have are related to what kind of animal they are.
Except for Pedro, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, the three Musketeers, and even the freaking goat doctor who integrate other features in their design.
Also I like how you chose the sloppiest anime frame of Robin lol. Why don't you compare the dress she had in her first appearance to the one Carrot had in hers?
First appearance post ts does that too:
You should do those montages with Nami too. Show him how unique she was back then. Show him good! Compare her to the other East Blue girls, or to other East Blue characters in general, he will be left with no defenses after that.
@.access:
You should do those montages with Nami too. Show him how unique she was back then. Show him good!
I write things hoping other people read them:
Context? lol.
You're not acknowledging about 20 years of evolution in Oda's character design.
Nami and Robin were unique when they were introduced, Carrot is not.
Nami is still more unique than Carrot, the red hair, the tattoo, the log pose and the eccentric dresses she wears now are enough to distinguish her from other human females. Carrot has not the same amount of unique/personal features to distinguish her from the other minks.
Every personal feature Carrot has is related to the fact that she is a rabbit mink, the same way every personal feature other minks have are related to what kind of animal they are.
Except for Pedro, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, the three Musketeers, and even the freaking goat doctor who integrate other features in their design.
Compare her to the other East Blue girls, or to other East Blue characters in general, he will be left with no defenses after that.
I thought we were talking about nakama and main characters's design
It's like the last 2 days of discussion never happened. Too bad I'm off to work, starting my day walking in circles sounded very compelling.
If we ever get a third woman I want her to be like Houhou from Hitori no Shita. I love that kind of character (a mix of beauty, badassness and airheadedness) I would love to see such character interact with the crew.
@.access:
It's like the last 2 days of discussion never happened.
16 chars of I agree.
Also I like how you chose the sloppiest anime frame of Robin lol. Why don't you compare the dress she had in her first appearance to the one Carrot had in hers?
Because the women constantly change their outfits. Their clothes don't matter when discussing their design if they don't stay consistent. Franky's spido and open shirt are relevant to his design, Robin's cowboy hat and armband aren't.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
If we ever get a third woman I want her to be like Houhou from Hitori no Shita. I love that kind of character (a mix of beauty, badassness and airheadedness) I would love to see such character interact with the crew.
This person?
That's too close to Robin in appearance for my tastes. But "badass" and "airhead" are two words I would use to describe Carrot.
The problem with your argument is that because she looks like an animal, she shouldn't be considered a valid SH candidate. I'm assuming you made that same assumption before Chopper joined, right? That he wasn't a human, so he wouldn't join. I seriously doubt it, but the point is, there's nothing from the current design of either that shows them looking alike. They have the same nose shape. That’s it. Sanji and Zoro share the same nose/mouth shapes. So, one of them shouldn't have joined? I doubt you'd agree to that either.
When he first appeared looking like Kureha's pet reindeer in a restaurant, no. He only look liked an easy reference to Santa Claus' flying reindeer. But as soon as Luffy climbed up to Kureha's castle and we saw Chopper's hybrid form when Nami woke up, I immediately thought he would be an awesome person to join as soon as he started talking. Mostly because we never saw a talking animal before. And as we got to know more and more about him, like how he was discriminated against because of his blue nose, broke his antler and had it repaired by Hililuk, has a precious pink top hat he got as a gift from Hililuk, got a unique name from Hililuk that repeats the first name twice and is a pun on how his antlers look like he could cut down trees, and has seven different forms he can use for battle, he looked freaking awesome. Unlike Carrot. Who is the 137th talking animal character we've seen at this point, doesn't seem to have any quirky nuances to her design besides being a talking rabbit and using claw gloves the rest of her race uses, and whose name is as simple as "rabbits eat carrots".
And why do you keep saying nothing looks alike between them when they both have fur and the same-shaped mouths/noses? Zoro and Sanji share the same faces, but they have loads of other traits distinguishing them. Traits that aren't just "one's this different species", which is the only argument you keep using for visual differences. Carrot has rabbit trait this, rabbit trait that. Nothing actually unique separating her visually from a normal rabbit or even other animated rabbit characters across fiction that has Oda's unique signature on it, which he does with all of this other main characters. The exception being women of course, but again, he doesn't copy unique hair colors (aside from default Japanese population, black-and-white manga black) and facial features for Nami and Robin either.
My main point is that Carrot has an extremely lazy design characteristic of a supporting character because almost ALL of her design traits, not just one or two like Zoro and Sanji, are borrowed from the Straw Hats, don't stand out from how the rest of the Minks are mostly based on a single animal species without more creativity in their design, and only takes design cues from everyone's perception of a normal rabbit.
Point is, if her nose was slightly different and her hair was a different color, that would suddenly make her a more viable candidate?
Hell yeah it would. That is how you know Oda put more thought into her design than "I'll take a rabbit and make her look like a cute girl in this warrior animal race where every single member is based on a different species". I would also appreciate a different mouth and at least a couple other design quirks that aren't just basic rabbit traits.
Just looking at Chopper himself (set aside his different forms for a sec since he spends 99.9% of the time in his base form), he's a little talking reindeer with a buckle on one antler and a blue nose. That's it. If you call Carrot a talking female rabbit, Chopper can be broken down as a talking male reindeer. Anything is simple if you break it down. There are plenty of distinctions between the two, not just physically, but from a background perspective as well.
Aside from all of the times he's walking with the Straw Hats in his natural reindeer form or human form, which he frequently transforms into pre-timeskip. And even if you want to set aside the different forms, just his hybrid form is unique compared to the rest of the main cast and the Minks. Buckle on antler, blue nose, small chibi mascot size, and pink top hat with a white x on it. Oh, and he's also shirtless. But like usual, I know you are going to swap or get rid of those unique traits to prove that he looks similar to other talking animals (which only proves my point about Carrot).
Let's look at their background. Chopper is cast out from his race because of having a blue nose, eats a Devil Fruit giving him human intelligence and multiple forms, gets feared as a monster similar to the Abominable Snowman by island inhabitants, is saved and trained by two doctors, one of his doctors blows himself up, creates a tool that gives him even more forms to use to be more unique than the average Zoan, and vows to see the world (like Usopp) and cure all illnesses as his dream.
Carrot is born on an island as one of many Minks who are talking humanoid mammals (like Chopper), Carrot sucks at swordplay (like Zoro's flashback) and gets given clawed gloves by her mentor (which a bunch of other Minks also use), learns to use Electro (like every other Mink), stows away on board the Thousand Sunny (like Robin) because she dreams of seeing the world (like Chopper and Usopp), her mentor blows himself up (like Chopper's mentor) to save his comrades, and she can transform during the full moon (like the rest of the Minks).
Of course anything is simple if you break it down. That's why we're breaking these characters down, to get the simple truth about how much effort Oda put into Carrot's design compared to the rest of the Straw Hats. I'm actually looking at the characters, their backgrounds, and their sources of inspiration. Not switching and erasing traits like you to prove a nonexistent point about character design similarities.
But because her nose is shaped the same as Chopper and her hair color matches another SH, she can’t possibly be considered a serious candidate (unless her mouth looked slightly different and her hair was a different color)?
Yep. Along with a few more design quirks and more unique standout background/arc role/abilities/talent/mentor relationship.
It isn't redundant. She's been overly friendly to everyone by running around hugging them, biting them, and cheering them on.
Am I going to have to post every single manga panel where other Minks rub themselves on the Straw Hats, love to chew and slobber all over Brook's bones, and support their aspirations?
This isn't about her replacing Usopp. It's about her forming a bond with a SH, which she's done not just with Chopper, but everyone else. Yes, that’s a familiar trait among her race, but it’s unique compared to the SHs.
A redundant bond where Chopper and Carrot are siblings because of how similar they look and act, which only proves my point even further. Yes, forming a bond over how similar you are to another person surely fits a crew as eclectic as the Straw Hat Pirates.
Correct. She's based on a rabbit. Distinct in many ways from everyone else in the crew. Chopper can be broken much the same way you just did. Antlers, brown fur, hooves. Of course, there's more to him than that, which you've mentioned. Carrot would be the same if you took into consideration that, amongst the SHs, she physically separate from everyone else (she's a mink, no one else is) regardless of what you would consider too similar to other characters. She uses a gauntlet, likes biting people, can generate electro (or are you still assuming Chopper can use electro?), can use sulong (still assuming Chopper can learn this too?), etc.
Distinct in many ways like how every Straw Hat is unique in more ways than only "human, reindeer, cyborg, skeleton, or fishman"?
Let's not pretend the Minks were not inspired by making animals talk like Chopper which Luffy blatantly says the first time he sees their village, hinted even more when Chopper gets a crush on a female reindeer nurse, presented further when all of the dogs want to chew on Brook, and hit over your head with a mallet when Nekomamushi wants to play with balls and eat lasagna like Garfield. Everything similar these characters have does not matter to you if there is even one insignificant minutia of difference, so I'm beginning to think pointing all of this out to you is useless. This is like saying Fishmen are not humans fused with aquatic creatures and Giants are not humans made gigantic, it's literally what their names mean. They don't descend from humans, but it's obvious that their source of inspiration was "Human + insert weird trait here." You might as well argue those cyborg animals in the timeskip island Franky was on could have joined if we got to know more about them despite them obviously being ripoffs of Franky and likely Chopper.
Gauntlet with claws is a bit different, but not that much. Especially when her whole race uses this, but you'll ignore that to selectively focus on the Straw Hats. And yes, I still think Chopper can learn Electro when it's clearly based on animals building up static electricity with their fur like in real life. Just like how we found out Haki can be used by people who aren't Skypieans. And before you mention how Carrot said Randolph isn't a Mink because he does not use Electro, that can be implied to either mean Electro is genetic or Electro is a cultural norm for Minks, the latter being possible so long as you have their physical characteristics and training like Chopper could obtain. As for Sulong, I'm not sure. But if he can make a drug that gives him six more forms, then maybe…
Yes, there's technically some overlap if you're looking at things in a basic sense, but none of those things are exact matches within the crew. Multiple SHs can use fire, transform, etc.
Except that everybody else has at least one unique trait nobody else uses while all Carrot has is "bites people for comedic effect" and "transformation her entire race can use limited to full moon".
Well if you "break down" Chopper the same way you ignore and switch the East Blue Straw Hats' traits, then sure, he's similar to Carrot. Carrot, the character that has no unique traits compared to them and her race to ignore and switch like those other characters besides rabbit anatomy.
Haha! I'm not doing that. You're talking about one part of their anatomy. Google long nose, orange hair, swirly eyebrow. You'll get a bunch of useless pics. Most of her traits line up with rabbits because she's supposed to resemble one. Most of Chopper's traits line up with reindeer because he's supposed to resemble one. Even throwing out her physical appearance, she still has enough distinguishing things about her personality or traits that would make her different from other SHs.
It takes less than a minute.
I'm talking about one part of their anatomy you keep claiming are equally unique even though popular media shows that pink nose on rabbits clearly aren't. I wouldn't be bringing this up if you weren't listing rabbit traits as unique traits compared to the Straw Hats.
I type in "green hair three swords" on Google Images and immediately get Zoro. I googled "sniper liar long nose" on Google Images. An image of Usopp didn't show up, but you know what is one of the top suggestions I could click on? "Usopp". I type in "blonde hair kicking cook cigarette" and you know what I see as a top suggestion? "Sanji". I type in "straw hat stretch sandals scar" and I get both images of Luffy and a top suggestion saying "Luffy". You know what I get when I type in "white rabbit claw glove electricity bite"? Rabbits, rabbt claw gloves, Electro the Spider-Man villain, disgusting bugs, and then I finally come across Carrot from One Piece over halfway down the page.
What distinguishing traits? I keep bringing this up and you never say anything that isn't also similar to the Minks.
Besides her physical perks, how many other SHs fight with a gauntlet (this isn't about other minks, just the SHs)? How many of them can generate electricity from their own bodies? How many of them seemingly enjoy biting and hugging other people? How many of them can harness a full moon and use a special ability? Differences are there even if you choose not to look or think they’re good enough by Oda’s standards.
I do choose to look. I also choose to look at Carrot's Mink background, which you keep saying we shouldn't do for no reason. Again with ignoring traits
Ignoring the Minks, the glove works on its own like Brook's cane sword compared to Zoro. So does the biting, ignoring the very few times Luffy bites people or people made of food. And the Straw Hats hug each other plenty to celebrate or support each other, that's not unique. Nuzzling up against their cheeks is, ignoring the Minks once again.
If you were describing this crew to someone who didn't read One Piece and threw in Carrot, do you really think they would be able to point her out as not being the SH or unique enough? I've already given you enough things that distinguishes her from everyone else.
Try telling me with a straight face that people won't say "look, there's two furry animals in the main cast! One is a rabbit and the other looks like a reindeer" while never comparing anybody else. And no, they won't say "there's several humans" when that's the basic norm for expectations in most fictional series. And hey, if they analyze them deeper, they might say "the reindeer has a blue nose, has an adorable pink hat, and has different proportions in different promotional art! Can he transform?! …And the rabbit might be a girl since she wears a dress and has boobs! I almost thought there were only two girls. But that claw glove looks a bit interesting though."
Again, her distinction as a mink (and the characteristics that come with her being a relative of the rabbit) are still enough to make her unique against the rest of the crew. Her hair is a similar color to another SH's and her nose is similar to another's. Those seem like extremely minor similarities to me considering everything else about her is unique compared to them.
Her distinction as a Mink is purely a name in the story, it is largely inconsequential. Design-wise and some parts of her personality are clearly "talking animal part of many talking animals that happens to be a rabbit". People won't confuse Carrot and Chopper for one another, but their only distinction between the two is "different species and genders". While looking at everybody else, they say "this guy in a suit has swirly eyebrows and smokes! This one with the straw hat can stretch! The Pinocchio-looking guy with poofy lips can use a slingshot! The green haired guy holds three swords! That lady spawns multiple arms! That fat shark guy with big teeth that looks very Japanese. And there's even a freaking cyborg not wearing pants and a tall afro skeleton!"
Do you still not understand how underwhelming it is for the Straw Hat crew to only be distinguished by "different species/genders" design-wise by now?
For the 50th time, her being based on a rabbit still separates her from the rest of the SHs. You keep going back to the hair and nose well, but I've already given you plenty of other physical traits she has that no one else does. You can say, "Well, she's based on a rabbit," but that fact doesn't disqualify any of her physical rabbit traits or anything else (her guantlet, personality quirk for hugging/biting regardless of if other minks do it, none of the SHs do).
For the 50th time, every Straw Hat has more unique quirks in their designs than "human or non-human" and does not rip off uniquely prominent head features. This is what Carrot lacks in her design. Every physical trait you mention is what a normal rabbit has. That is it. Carrot could have looked unique before Drum. But now, after everybody we have seen either in or out of the crew? Not at all.
It is very clear that your bar for character design unique in the Straw Hat crew is solely limited to the Straw Hat crew. But what I keep saying over and over again is that Oda's character design preferences are not limited to solely the Straw Hats and he differentiates the Straw Hats more than he does with Carrot if she's grouped in with them. This discussion is about Oda's pattern of artistic preferences first and foremost. Looking like a rabbit and sharing traits with your non-human race does not cut it anymore for him.
There's no reason to assume that Oda will continue down that trope given what he did with Jinbe. he was introduced on a completely different island and he still hasn't join. Oda has already broken that trait, so there's no reason to assume that since she didn't stand out on Zou that she never would, especially because Zou wasn't the end point of some great conflict. Would you agree that she's had a lot more relevance during WCI? Now, what if she has even more at Wano?
The problem with your assertion that Oda breaks traits is that it's so vague. Sure, he COULD break patterns. But how do we know which patterns he can break without evidence? Jinbe took a long time to join, but he still had his "I'll join you guys one day" exchange with Luffy at the end of Fishman Island, his unique characterization and design, and we had lesser examples with how long it took to find out about Nami and Robin's backstories. We have no reason to assume Carrot is getting further development in Wano Country, an island she has no connection to whatsoever and will have to share the spotlight with the rest of her race, other than being a Straw Hat ally for an arc (like the samurai, who actually ARE the focus of Wano Country but still won't join) and her last minute rushed relationship with Pedro that rips off at least two Straw Hat backstories. Assuming Pedro is even dead since we also have the precedent of Oda almost never killing his characters.
Yes, she has had more relevance in Totland than in Zou. Even though she was practically nonexistent in Zou and mostly nonexistent in Totland outside of loligagging with Chopper in the Mirror World, Pedro's death for two chapters, and a Sulong transformation for two chapters. Add all those together and that's about four-five chapters at most she's been the main focus, and I'm using "main focus" very loosely. Wow, how impressive. That really measures up to how much story focus every other Straw Hat got in the arc where they wanted to join the crew or their backstory got revealed, where I can actually say the arc was more about them than any of the other Straw Hats.
"Oda could do something different this time" is not a valid argument without enough supporting evidence.
I only brought up Yonji because of his green hair and propensity for getting into an argument with Sanji just like Zoro. We're in agreement of the Viola/Hancock/Robin paradigm.
Which is why I said Yonji would have a chance if he was the first Vinsmoke introduced and dyed his hair another color.
She has fur and a similar nose when compared to Chopper. How many SHs have the same skin color and a regular nose? Zoro, Sanji, Nami, Robin, and Usopp don't stand out agains their race. By comparison, they're extremely plain. As I've said about Jinbe, compared to the SHs, no one is even close to him, but when you compare him to other fishmen, he blends in just like Carrot does. That's why I say compare them to the SHs only, not their race.
Skin color, not much if at all. But that goes to show how Oda almost never distinguishes his main characters by skin color. But you know what he does like to differentiate? Noses! Like Usopp's long nose. Robin's wide nose bridge. Franky's metal nose. Brook having no nose. Jinbe's fat nose. The first few Straw Hats don't have unique noses, but that means noses are a trait that Oda could take it or leave it, and the noses Luffy/Zoro/Nami/Sanji have are very basic. However, do you think that Oda would introduce another Straw Hat that has the unique one of a kind noses they have amongst the crew? Do you think he would introduce another long nose, wide nose bridge, metal nose, no nose, or fat nose? I doubt it. Just like I doubt he would introduce another blonde-haired crewmate.
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji and Robin actually do stand out among the human race in different ways. Different hair colors, eyebrows, noses, abilities, eye shapes, clothes, addictions, etc. They don't all have unique eyebrows and noses, but that makes the Straw Hats who do have those unique features stand out even more. Chopper stands out a lot with his small triangle nose. So why do you think Oda would want to take away Chopper's uniqueness like that?
Jinbe blends in with his race, but he has clear differences compared to them that aren't just "I'm a whale shark while this guy is an octopus and the other is another type of shark". No, he has a distinct attire style, teeth style, hairstyle, body shape, All things that do are not synonymous with what ties the Fishmen race together, which is "talking aquatic animal people". Much like how the Minks are "talking furry animal people." Which is why i must ask why Carrot, who will supposedly be the next crewmate, has no unique features exclusive to her outside of her animal species like Jinbe?
No, they aren't. I'm not gonna spend much time on this one since none of them have endured everything that Carrot has up to this point, besides the fact that none of them (besides Carrot) have expressed any interest in traveling with the SHs or being curious about the larger world.
Chopper said he wanted to see the world in Drum, and he has an extra dream on top of that to cure every illness. Usopp constantly lied about seeing the world in Syrup Village and decides he wants to see the world similarly too, although not as emphasized. And he wants to become a brave warrior of the sea. AND he wants to become the sniper king. Meanwhile, Carrot wants to see the world over halfway into the series.
As I've said, amongst the crew, she's the only one that hugs and bites randomly, is apparently obsessed with carrots and is willing to kill for them, has to be patted on the head to calm down, draws everyone as if they're a woman, can apparently float in the air without using geppo, fights with a gauntlet (again, amongst the SH crew itself), etc. How many can you think of for Jinbe? Does he pass this personality test?
But if Carrot was pink and had blue hair, that would make her a viable candidate despite all of your other preconceived objections about her? That isn't a question you need to respond to, but I find it interesting that you could then overlook her similar nose to Chopper or her general "rabbit" look.
It would help.. So long as the blue hair is much darker shade than Franky's. It shows that Oda put more thought into Carrot besides "girl + rabbit + electric glove Mink warrior". And I wouldn't overlook those traits. They would still make me doubt her crewmate potential. Man, your "GOTCHA!" traps really need work since you keep relying on these weird straw man fallacies ignoring the intent and context about what I'm saying.
There are two female members of the crew who, again, by design are extremely generic compared to other female characters in the OP universe. Look at Nami and Robin and compare them to Brulee, Miss Monday, Miss Doublefinger, etc. Considering that, Carrot is drastically more distinct that Nami and Robin (people she should be compared to). That why characters like Viola and even Pudding were never serious candidates for me. A vision DF and a third eye wouldn't be enough to make them visually distinct when they are in a setting with Nami and Robin.
Nami is the first female Oda designed. She only looks generic after the fact of her debut. Same for Robin, but she is the first female of her kind that Oda introduced. Yet Carrot somehow can't be compared to only then when, again for the dozenth time, NEITHER NAMI NOR ROBIN SHARE DESIGN TRAITS WITH THE GUYS. Oda's exception with women is only that "body shapes and faces will mostly look the same". Not "women only rip off hair colors and facial features the guys already have". Despite being women in Oda's manga, Nami and Robin still have different facial features and hair colors (aside from black) compared to them. Why does Carrot get to be the exception ripping off Chopper and Sanji in your arbitrary rule that she can only be compared to the other girls who aren't ripping off guys' designs.
At this point, I feel like I've gone through the list countless times. When we first met jinbe, he stood out from every other character we had seen at Impel Down. At FI, however, he didn't seem so unique at all. He lost a log o his visual appeals among the other fish people. That's what happened to Carrot. Rather than appearing somewhere like dressrosa, she appeared among her people, which may have reduce her overall impact, but she's still stands out against the SH crew, which is ultimately the bigger point (queue the Sanji/Chopper stuff again).
Name one Fishman who has Jinbe's huge teeth, his Japanese attire, facial hair shapes, and has that same fat Goomba body shape. Notice how not one of those details said "name one Fishman who is also a whale shark". He has not lost most of his visual appeal.
And seriously, why do you keep saying all the Fishmen look the same together but Carrot not standing out on One Piece' Volume 81 cover is A-OK? That is straight up hypocritical. You can't keep saying "CARROT MUST ONLY BE COMPARED TO THE STRAW HATS, NOT THE MINKS" and then on the mutter on the side, "but Jinbe doesn't look all that different compared to the Fishmen." It's like you're admitting Carrot has a design as unremarkable as most of her race but are too arrogant to let it be used as a legitimate critique against her.
She has fur and a similar shaped nose. She doesn't have antlers or a blue nose. She doesn't wear a pink hat. She's not a deer or a reindeer. She's not brown. She has hair. She's a mink. I've gone through the list already.
Not having certain quirks does not mean she has unique quirks to compensate. And wow, Carrot has hair like every other human and Mink. And the same hair color as a human. You realize you basically said "Chopper doesn't have Sanji's hair" as a reason why Chopper and Carrot are different, right? "Mink" is only a word. Describe the design on what it is clearly based on. Talking animals.
I did that because you're associating blond hair with Sanji and a button nose with chopper, never mind the fact that while those things may be unique to them among the crew, they also have other overlapping physical or social characteristics.
So Carrot doubling down having blonde hair like Sanji AND other humans is okay because…? And there has not been a single character in this series as irrationally chivalrous and prideful as Sanji. Zeff, his mentor, comes closest. I don't see anybody else hiding behind walls and acting embarrassed when they get compliments most of the time like Chopper.
Again, I've already addressed this. She's not ripping anybody off. Hair color is not unique within the crew and neither are noses. Those are shared across multiple SHs. Her sharing a similar hair color to Sanji should be no more disqualifying for her than it would be for any SH with black hair.
Only black hair, the default hair color for 99% of the Japanese population, is not unique. Only regular triangle noses that Oda used a lot during East Blue are not unique. That is the only point you proved.
Again, even if you look at her and compare her to the crew both physically and from a personality perspective, she's unique enough. Would she be Oda's best example of a NN candidate that we’ve ever seen? Nope, but enough distinction already exists when comparing her to everyone else.
Personality-wise, nope. Aside from the close nuzzling, she drew a pretty picture once and only joins in group gags with Luffy and Chopper. Your threshold for distinction is very low.
Right. I agree that he's distinct enough, but among the rest of the weird fishmen we saw, he lost some of him uniqueness. That's the same thing we have with Carrot. We've already seen Nekomamushi, so she's lost some of her shine, just like Jinbe did when we saw the NFP or Fisher Tiger or Vander Decken. Again, Oda has always shown a penchant for making his male characters extremely dynamic. His female characters are much simpler by design. That's why I'm saying a simple design for Carrot would fall in line with that practice. By comparison, there are only a handful of uniquely designed female characters compared to the male characters.
Some of it, but not all. That is bound to happen when Jinbe is the first crewmate that is part of a major non-human fictional One Piece race. And Yet I am still listing characteristics that are still unique in Jinbe while you can only keep saying "rabbit" for whatever comparison you use her in.
Oda's female characters are simpler, but his main female characters still don't rip off male character design traits other than black hair and basic triangle noses.
How about the fact that she's never looked afraid? Nami, Chopper, Brook, and Usopp freak out in the face of danger. She doesn't. When it came to going to WCI, saving the Vinsmokes, fighting that centipede at sea, or going after Katakuri, she's never hesitated to engage in combat. The fact that she's ready to throw down when the opportunity presents itself says that she doesn't mind getting dirty.
So she's not afraid like Luffy, Zoro, Sanji, Robin, Franky, sometimes Brook, and Jinbe? Maybe that looks more unique when, I don't know, half the crew is gone and Jinbe was not introduced in the arc yet?
If they're gender neutral, then why do you keep saying she has too much in common with the male characters (including Brook for some reason).
Carrot's gender doesn't matter at all when it comes to comparing her to male characters. I would say everything I'm saying regardless of her gender. What makes you think I'm fixated on the word "male"? I'm only using "male" sometimes as shorthand so I don't have to constantly type out "Sanji, Chopper, and Brook" in full all over the place.
Why do you keep saying being white is a unique visual characteristic for Carrot when Brook is white? Taking Chopper's fur does not make that visual cue look any less redundant.
Anyway, curse you for dragging me down this rabbit hole (pun intended)! Feel free to respond if you'd like, but I think I've made my point.
I think I have made mine as well.
Just to give some context to my overall rationale for Carrot potentially joining, my main reasoning is not based on any of the physical arguments we've been having. It's not even based on the Pedro revelations or how unique she is among the crew. The main reason why is from a narrative standpoint, we're far closer to the end of the series than we are to the beginning.
Shouldn't that work against how grand Carrot's dream is?
The SHs are about to face their biggest test of the entire series. It will have the biggest impact in the series besides Luffy finding OP or the final war. With that being the case, it's inconceivable to think that a new SH will be allowed to join the SHs immediately after Wano unless it's someone who's journeyed with them and made sacrifices along the way. Someone who was unique enough from the rest of the crew and strong enough to help them in the last push of their journey. As someone else said, any new character joining after Wano would be like someone hitching their wagon to a winning team, which I completely agree with.
Why can't a completely new but unique strong crewmate join during Wano to help out against the Beast Pirates then?
So, you may say, "Maybe someone at Wano will join!" First of all, they would've missed out on everything pre-time skip and everything post-timeskip, including their toughest test yet of invading an emperor’s territory, stealing poneglyghs, facing an emperor's crew, and more. Second, these are all of the major players that we'll be seeing at Wano.
Like how Carrot didn't help invade Enies Lobby, one of the World Government's strongholds? Or trained during the timeskip? Or helped take down any of three Warlords? Emphasizing Totland's infiltration is arbitrary and the battle in Wano Country is arbitrary, even if a new crewmate participating in those events is preferable.
How do you know that new characters won't be introduced in an island we have yet to see and is third longest built-up island in the series after Raftel and Elbaf?
Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Usopp, Sanji, Chopper, Franky, Brook, Jinbei, Carrot, Law, Law's crew, Momo, Kinemon, Kajuro, Raizo, Inuarashi, Nekomamushi, Marco, Kaido, The Shogun, Sheepshead, Ginrummy, Scotch, Jack, the two other calamities, X Drake, Apoo, Hawkins, Kidd, and possibly Weevil, Moriah, and Caesar.
I bet we're getting more considering how large Dressrosa and Totland are.
In effect, there's no room for a major SH candidate to show up and have a place in that arc given who we already know will be involved (again, a new candidate wouldn't have been present at Zou or WCI). If we look at Carrot, she's already been established, and subsequent to that, she has a reason for seeing the SHs succeed given Pedro’s will. Also, having a mink be present in the future PKs crew (given the fact that the SHs and minks fates are now linked because of the road poneglyghs and their mutual alliance against Kaido).
Tell that to Oda. And we still don't know what Pedro's will is.
From a narrative standpoint, she just makes the most sense. Is she designed as uniquely as she could be? Nope. But given the fact that I believe the last SH has to join before the end of Wano, there's no other candidate or potential that makes sense.
Anyway, I've stated my piece. Thanks for the engaging discussion.
That is why we have to wait for a completely new character with actual crewmate potential to appear.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
@Count:
When he first appeared looking like Kureha's pet reindeer in a restaurant, no. He only look liked an easy reference to Santa Claus' flying reindeer. But as soon as Luffy climbed up to Kureha's castle and we saw Chopper's hybrid form when Nami woke up, I immediately thought he would be an awesome person to join as soon as he started talking. Mostly because we never saw a talking animal before. And as we got to know more and more about him, like how he was discriminated against because of his blue nose, broke his antler and had it repaired by Hililuk, has a precious pink top hat he got as a gift from Hililuk, got a unique name from Hililuk that repeats the first name twice and is a pun on how his antlers look like he could cut down trees, and has seven different forms he can use for battle, he looked freaking awesome. Unlike Carrot. Who is the 137th talking animal character we've seen at this point, doesn't seem to have any quirky nuances to her design besides being a talking rabbit and using claw gloves the rest of her race uses, and whose name is as simple as "rabbits eat carrots".
You make a lot of good points, but I'm not sure if the name is necessarily something to hold against her. After all, Nami's name means "wave", the first part of Usopp's name means "liar", and Jinbei's named after his species.
Also, I'm not sure if emphasizing the battle in Wano as a stopping point is arbitrary. I'm not one for setting points where people can't join the crew, but after Kaidou's beaten, they'll have three of the four Red Poneglyphs and the means to translate them, which makes it seem like the series is entering its endgame. Beyond that, all they'll need to do is find the fourth Red Poneglyph and use the information from those to reach Raftel. While it likely won't be as simple as that, beating Kaidou puts them closer to One Piece than anyone on the planet.
You make a lot of good points, but I'm not sure if the name is necessarily something to hold against her. After all, Nami's name means "wave", the first part of Usopp's name means "liar", and Jinbei's named after his species.
Also, I'm not sure if emphasizing the battle in Wano as a stopping point is arbitrary. I'm not one for setting points where people can't join the crew, but after Kaidou's beaten, they'll have three of the four Red Poneglyphs and the means to translate them, which makes it seem like the series is entering its endgame. Beyond that, all they'll need to do is find the fourth Red Poneglyph and use the information from those to reach Raftel. While it likely won't be as simple as that, beating Kaidou puts them closer to One Piece than anyone on the planet.
They will never concede Jinbe's name set the bar much lower than Carrot's would, give up.
As for the other two, I disagree. Nami is a straight refference, nothing groundbreaking, but at least a bit less obvious than Carrot's. As for Usopp's, I actually think "lying Aesop" is a pretty clever wordplay.
You make a lot of good points, but I'm not sure if the name is necessarily something to hold against her. After all, Nami's name means "wave", the first part of Usopp's name means "liar", and Jinbei's named after his species.
Also, I'm not sure if emphasizing the battle in Wano as a stopping point is arbitrary. I'm not one for setting points where people can't join the crew, but after Kaidou's beaten, they'll have three of the four Red Poneglyphs and the means to translate them, which makes it seem like the series is entering its endgame. Beyond that, all they'll need to do is find the fourth Red Poneglyph and use the information from those to reach Raftel. While it likely won't be as simple as that, beating Kaidou puts them closer to One Piece than anyone on the planet.
Nami simple but stil creative. Just like Zoro being based on, well, Zorro. I agree on Jinbe, I keep forgetting that.
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
Also, Carrot's name is "Carrot", not the japanese word for "Carrot". So to Oda and his main readers it's more special. You would think her name was more creative if it was "Morkov" even though that's just "Carrot" in romanian.
We just think its less special because we speak english fluently.
It still doesn't change the fact that her name is just written as the English translated name of Ninjin, one of Usopp's friends from Syrup Village. It wouldn't matter if the name was in any other language, because it'd still be a repeat of a previous name used in the series.
It's her name because she's a rabbit, and because rabbits are usually depicted as liking carrots (they don't eat them). It's "Ha ha, very funny", but it doesn't help her chances at all that Oda reused a name that he used on a boy that resembles a Carrot.
Ninjin, Carrot in Japanese, was ironically already taken by one of the Usopp Pirates.
EDIT: Been a while since I was ninja'd.
Because the women constantly change their outfits. Their clothes don't matter when discussing their design if they don't stay consistent. Franky's spido and open shirt are relevant to his design, Robin's cowboy hat and armband aren't
The clothes a character wears in his first appearance are a huge part of the way an artist has conceived them. And they are usually an indication of the effort put into their creation.
This is not always true for all cartoonists, but Oda is probably the most glaring example I can think of.
Starting clothes are also part of the narrative. When an important character is introduced, elaborated / particular / personal / unique / unusual clothes are used in order to make them stand out, so the readers can immediatly distinguish them from less important characters. This happens because to make a main cast character memorable, to imprint his/her looks in the mind of readers, are main goals for a shonen manga (especially if it runs a merchandising empire).
It was't until Water 7 that Oda started messing with Robin's cowgirl looks: by that time the readers already aknowledged her as part of the main cast.
And even then Oda was pretty consistent with her style. He focused more on the grim features in Water 7 and Thriller Bark, and then returned to the cowgirl looks in Sabaody.
And all those clothes Nami and Robin wore AFTER they became popular characters, were more elaborated, thought out, and as a result memorable, than Carrot's.
Probably I could've put any of Robin or Nami designs from all the main arcs close to that Carrot image and I'd still have made my point (except maybe from Dressrosa Robin, that dress was pretty basic, and I'm probably forgetting something else but I don't want someone to point out the two weak ass clothes I forgot just to ignore the rest of my post).
Im still hung up on the fact that carrot can't join because her and sanji are both blonde that is the most laughable thing I've heard here in so long
Im still hung up on the fact that carrot can't join because her and sanji are both blonde that is the most laughable thing I've heard here in so long
If it makes you laugh even harder, it's also why Vivi will never join again after Franky.
@.access:
You should do those montages with Nami too. Show him how unique she was back then. Show him good! Compare her to the other East Blue girls, or to other East Blue characters in general, he will be left with no defenses after that.
Made me lol.
This thread in short.
Almost makes me want to see Carrot as the next SH just so I can watch the implosion. If she doesn't become the next SH… nothing will happen. But if she does, oh boy...
Almost makes me want to see Carrot as the next SH just so I can watch the implosion. If she doesn't become the next SH… nothing will happen. But if she does, oh boy...
What implosion?
It'd be disappointment in Oda. But no one is actively going "I HATE CARROT, GRR, SHE TERRIBLE, ME DROP SERIES IF SHE JOINS."
She's just lacking the qualities of a lead, and if she is supposed to be one, then her entire setup from introduction, to design, to flashback, has been below Oda's usual standards and those are things he's consistently nailed since the start of the series.
She's perfectly fine as a secondary support character.
What implosion?
It'd be disappointment in Oda. But no one is actively going "I HATE CARROT, GRR, SHE TERRIBLE, ME DROP SERIES IF SHE JOINS."
She's just lacking the qualities of a lead, and if she is supposed to be one, then her entire setup from introduction, to design, to flashback, has been below Oda's usual standards and those are things he's consistently nailed since the start of the series.
She's perfectly fine as a secondary support character.
That would be more of an explosion. Implosion would be if a bunch of vocal Carrot opponent members just had a rug pulled under them by Oda and accepted it with silent grief.
I really don't care whether she joins or not. I'd prefer not, for many reasons already mentioned here, even by me, like 50 or 100 pages back. Or both. But if she does join, it will mean Oda won't be focusing much on either her or Jinbe or most of the other members. It has already become evident. He needs to split the crew in order to give everyone space to act. In that sense, Carrot would be just someone that fills up the space and hasn't had much thought put into them, compared to other members.
Personally, I think someone from Elbaf with an interesting zoan would be a lot more interesting as an addition, but it would probably mean Sunny did get seriously rekt, because there's no way a giant can fit through any doors at the moment. And I don't believe Sunny is in bad shape and there's also that interview according to which the new members will join in quick succession.
What implosion?
It'd be disappointment in Oda. But no one is actively going "I HATE CARROT, GRR, SHE TERRIBLE, ME DROP SERIES IF SHE JOINS."
She's just lacking the qualities of a lead, and if she is supposed to be one, then her entire setup from introduction, to design, to flashback, has been below Oda's usual standards and those are things he's consistently nailed since the start of the series.
She's perfectly fine as a secondary support character.
That's pretty much my exact sentiment. Every other Straw Hat, barring Robin (whose unique ability is her real sticking point, but everyone's warmed up to her by now anyway) has been someone we've been given every reason to think is worthy of a spot there, even if at the time we didn't realize how great the stakes of everything would be (Nami not having her Clima Tact til the latter part of Alabasta) and how their combat prowess would be a significant factor. It wasn't til Nami got the potential for something that would even leave Vivi in the dust that we had any reason to believe that she could hold her own like the rest of the crew (and why Vivi had no chance of joining regardless of her politics).
Carrot's a great girl. But Oda can do better for someone who's going to be there permanently.
This is why I don't post in here.
I really like Carrot and I'd like her to join, but the entire concept that there are hints or tells about her either joining or not joining is foreign to me. I guess I don't pay nearly enough attention to this stuff lol.
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That's pretty much my exact sentiment.
Mine too, and I sincerely hope that after all the stuff that has been said this doesn't look like an "i like her/I hate her" discussion lol
This is why I don't post in here.
I really like Carrot and I'd like her to join, but the entire concept that there are hints or tells about her either joining or not joining is foreign to me. I guess I don't pay nearly enough attention to this stuff lol.
You kind of have to care enough about the details to really get into it, yeah, so the debate won't appeal to everybody.
Mine too, and I sincerely hope that after all the stuff that has been said this doesn't look like an "i like her/I hate her" discussion lol
I definitely like her as a Mink, more than Pekoms and Bepo, but that just hurts her uniqueness regardless. I wish there was something to really set her apart but Oda didn't give us that. For some reason I see the next Straw Hat lady being something of a mix of Cindry and Baby 5, maybe with a little Kalifa thrown in (very stiff and business-like and extremely serious about performing what they perceive as their 'duty' even if no one asks them or if it's an imposition on someone else).
Given the timing, that quote was almost certainly referring to the strawhat fleet from Dresserossa, not 10 and 11.
Also "the boss character" quote was about the Impel Down crew.
That's great news. Well, news to me anyway. Might get my giant after all.
I was considering Wano for a while, but Zoro basically has the fighting style and tradition nailed down, and Luffy and Robin can mostly make up for Momo's CoO and heritage.
That's great news. Well, news to me anyway. Might get my giant after all.
I was considering Wano for a while, but Zoro basically has the fighting style and tradition nailed down, and Luffy and Robin can mostly make up for Momo's CoO and heritage.
In spite of everything, Shirahoshi's size was probably the biggest thing against her joining when it was being discussed. But at least she could swim beside the ship, a normal giant couldn't handle that.
I dont consider a giant that likely unless oda not only goes back on his practice of not using filler fruits again in the main series (like he did with oven) but does that for a main character. Once that filler girl had a shrinking fruit, it cleared out the chances of a giant crewmember having it, because oda obviously wouldnt let a filler character have the same fruit as a future strawhat. And why do I care so much about the fruit being a delbreaker? Size. Full size giants with no shrinking ability were off the table when the sunny was introduced. And having a regular sized human giant kind of defeats the point.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
In spite of everything, Shirahoshi's size was probably the biggest thing against her joining when it was being discussed. But at least she could swim beside the ship, a normal giant couldn't handle that.
Whoa whoa whoa easy with that racism pal. Next you'll be mentioning they cant be doctors or scientists and they're all naturally athletic :ninja:
TBH the size is a legit issue
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
I liked Lily. Canonize Lily.
I dont consider a giant that likely unless oda not only goes back on his practice of not using filler fruits again in the main series (like he did with oven) but does that for a main character. Once that filler girl had a shrinking fruit, it cleared out the chances of a giant crewmember having it, because oda obviously wouldnt let a filler character have the same fruit as a future strawhat. And why do I care so much about the fruit being a delbreaker? Size. Full size giants with no shrinking ability were off the table when the sunny was introduced. And having a regular sized human giant kind of defeats the point.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Whoa whoa whoa easy with that racism pal. Next you'll be mentioning they cant be doctors or scientists and they're all naturally athletic :ninja:
TBH the size is a legit issue
Actually the Kachi Kachi no Mi was about skin hardening, the adding heat part to it was…just dumb, frankly, so I don't consider that breaking canon to give Oven the heat ability by itself.
Besides which, I'm not interested in another DF user joining. They already have four hammers, and only one qualified lifeguard who can save and carry all of them at once, so adding another would be ridiculous. And a giant whose body is built for floating in water and traveling quickly through it is objectively more capable than one that is not. Although Rayleigh didn't seem very tired after swimming all the way to Amazon Lily even though he also killed a Sea King along the way, so who knows what relative stamina will be like? Unless Franky upgrades the ship AGAIN to accommodate a giant. Like putting a big set of bike pedals on the back and a paddlewheel that a giant can use to make the ship move way faster. But then the front end of the ship would need a huge counterweight to keep from falling over backwards, and they'd need a place for the giant to be able to lie down and sleep, and to keep enough food on hand to feed them, and...wait, were you just messing with me?
I was gonna say "What if this SH giant was Bastille's size?", then I remembered Oda's current SBS shot that idea down.
The face of a Straw Hat.
@The:
I was gonna say "What if this SH giant was Bastille's size?", then I remembered Oda's current SBS shot that idea down.
I don't even remember who the hell that is.
Actually the Kachi Kachi no Mi was about skin hardening, the adding heat part to it was…just dumb, frankly, so I don't consider that breaking canon to give Oven the heat ability by itself.
I was referring to Don Accino who was the main villain of the filler arc between Enies Lobby and thriller bark. He had the exclusive ability to control his own heat and throw it like balls. It wasnt that good fo a fight and luffy could still touch him at a 10000 or something completely stupid.
Besides which, I'm not interested in another DF user joining. They already have four hammers, and only one qualified lifeguard who can save and carry all of them at once, so adding another would be ridiculous. And a giant whose body is built for floating in water and traveling quickly through it is objectively more capable than one that is not. Although Rayleigh didn't seem very tired after swimming all the way to Amazon Lily even though he also killed a Sea King along the way, so who knows what relative stamina will be like? Unless Franky upgrades the ship AGAIN to accommodate a giant. Like putting a big set of bike pedals on the back and a paddlewheel that a giant can use to make the ship move way faster. But then the front end of the ship would need a huge counterweight to keep from falling over backwards, and they'd need a place for the giant to be able to lie down and sleep, and to keep enough food on hand to feed them, and…wait, were you just messing with me?
Maybe but your idea intrigues me. Maybe they can give him a hummingbird zoan so he never has to land at sea lol
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
I was referring to Don Accino who was the main villain of the filler arc between Enies Lobby and thriller bark. He had the exclusive ability to control his own heat and throw it like balls. It wasnt that good fo a fight and luffy could still touch him at a 10000 or something completely stupid.
Maybe but your idea intrigues me. Maybe they can give him a hummingbird zoan so he never has to land lol
And they would need to eat a thousand times what Luffy could every day to not die.
But now you're on to something! I never thought of using a living thing as an airship, but what if they had a bunch of those giant birds from the Torino kingdom holding a small island aloft, and there would be space for other such birds so that they can swap out whenever they got tired? Or just on the back of a giant with a flying ability? Like of Broggy or Dorry got Buffalo's DF and turned into a giant airplane human.
Actually the Kachi Kachi no Mi was about skin hardening, the adding heat part to it was…just dumb, frankly, so I don't consider that breaking canon to give Oven the heat ability by itself.
Besides which, I'm not interested in another DF user joining. They already have four hammers, and only one qualified lifeguard who can save and carry all of them at once, so adding another would be ridiculous. And a giant whose body is built for floating in water and traveling quickly through it is objectively more capable than one that is not. Although Rayleigh didn't seem very tired after swimming all the way to Amazon Lily even though he also killed a Sea King along the way, so who knows what relative stamina will be like? Unless Franky upgrades the ship AGAIN to accommodate a giant. Like putting a big set of bike pedals on the back and a paddlewheel that a giant can use to make the ship move way faster. But then the front end of the ship would need a huge counterweight to keep from falling over backwards, and they'd need a place for the giant to be able to lie down and sleep, and to keep enough food on hand to feed them, and...wait, were you just messing with me?
Sanji also counts as a lifeguard. He saved Kin'emon from drowning/freezing in Punk Hazard. While in Nami's body no less.
And they would need to eat a thousand times what Luffy could every day to not die.
Uhhhhhhh he has photsynthesis due to a rough childhood
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
Uhhhhhhh he has photsynthesis due to a rough childhood
Someone with plant-like abilities would be awesomesauce. Like if it's a race of plant-people, like a flora version of Minks or Fishmen, who can do that without a Devil Fruit? That would be so badass.
Someone with plant-like abilities would be awesomesauce. Like if it's a race of plant-people, like a flora version of Minks or Fishmen, who can do that without a Devil Fruit? That would be so badass.
You want Usopp to join the crew?
Spoiler:
"Life's not about finding out which card is yours, but finding out which cards you're not."
@Count:
You want Usopp to join the crew?
Think about the potential of someone like that, though; I'd actually written a fanfic where someone had a plant-based Logia DF where they didn't get immunity from damage, but they could regenerate instantly by absorbing any nearby plant matter. Someone could feasibly grow to giant sizes with a plant-based ability, control existing plants, regenerate damage, etc. Maybe use pollen to confuse or entice enemies, something I'm not sure if Usopp's Pop Greens can.
@Count:
You want Usopp to join the crew?
Gardener Usopp will always feel kind of like a retcon to me. I know oda had another character with the ability in a rough draft but the buildup for such a change always felt out of nowhere.
It was like " I guess usopp is a gardener now. Real man of the soil apparently. I guess him being from a small town explains it well enough"
Chapter 437 Discussion after franky decides to join the Strawhats:
So who think Usopp is inside that duffelbag?
H x H Chimera Ant Arc / OP Manga Spoiler
Spoiler:
Gardener Usopp will always feel kind of like a retcon to me. I know oda had another character with the ability in a rough draft but the buildup for such a change always felt out of nowhere.
It was like " I guess usopp is a gardener now. Real man of the soil apparently. I guess him being from a small town explains it well enough"
And big bulky-armed Franky feels the same way to me. I so miss his original look.
I feel like Usopp's plant stuff is a remnant from the plant guy from the original crew sketch who got replaced by Robin. I wish Usopp utilized it a bit more interestingly.
Hey, THAT'S how the Sunny gets saved! Usopp's plants were obviously in the garden, and one of them inflates and does things when the ship is "sunk" or exposed to heat or something.
I'm still waiting for Usopp to combine his plants, dials, and oldest items in an organic crazy way at some point.
I also still want him to have impact dials built into his shoes so he does crazy jump landings and just eats the impact for later.
@Count:
You want Usopp to join the crew?
Ignoring Usopp is apparently a new requisite for crewmate theories.
She's just lacking the qualities of a lead, and if she is supposed to be one
Let's suppose that I agree that Carrot doesn't have the qualities to be part of the main cast, which I don't. Are we in this parallel universe now? Ok. Now let me propose a different discussion.
I think there's a huge difference between the first batch of Strawhats and one that is presented after chapter 800. The first ones are the real core of the crew, not only because of our emotional attachment, but because there are very good reasons for them to be there since the beginning to fulfill essential roles under a plot-wise perspective. I'm not talking about navigators, cooks or swordsmen, but of characters in a story. The first Strawhats, mainly the guys from East Blue, were the most substancial additions to complete Luffy as a character (
) and to develop the crew's concept/mood. Even on an individual level, it's arguable that they were Oda's masterpieces to live the role of main characters.We want new Strawhats, but the crew has been complete for a very long time. Answering the phrase I'm quoting, w_e don't need more leads_. Even charismatic guys like Franky and Brooke feel less important and underused in the series because they're more of ornamental additions, not essentials. Sure, they expend the lore of the crew, makes sense to have a musician and a shipwright, they're fun to watch, they fight, have a backstory, may become fan favorites… but they are not leads. To be completely fair, though, they are well rounded out characters to have around that add a just little something more of essential. However, for each new crew member, the less we need another one.
I'm not trying to lower expectations of how much work Oda should put into a new Strawhat (and I think he's yet to finish Carrot's development for that purpose), but we should understand what a new crew member will mean to the narrative. It seems to me that everyone is somewhat conscious of this secondary role, so that's why we try to rationalize the reasons why we think Carrot is good enough or not good enough to have around. However, we just shape our own preferences into a list of "objective" prerequisites in order to justify our desire to have or not said character in the main cast.
What's the minimum requirement for an ornamental character though? Of course I want a well rounded out character with cool a design (Carrot, check for me), development (Carrot, almost check) and else, but one thing that I never see people mentioning is the requirement of someone that really matches the established vibe of the crew in order to fit along well in the journay of the real leads. What do we accomplish with a great flashback, for example, if later the character will become background material that Oda have no idea how to write for 95% of their screentime, like Chopper or Robin? One thing that nobody can take out from Carrot is the fact that she really fits in the crew. She's even got blonde hair like Sanji (-joking).
