Lucchi/Jyabura rivalry

Phlemingo

Lucchi and Jyabura have some sort of rivalry, I think everyone agrees.

To have an equal rivalry such as theirs, both parties must be equal in strength, I believe.

Lucchi's douriki is almost 2000 higher than Jyabura's… that is a fact.

If that's the case, why does Lucchi still consider Jyabura a rival of his, even though his douriki without zoan transformation is so much higher? Lucchi even was beginning to morph into his leopard form if not for CP9 breaking their fight up. It puzzles me greatly why Lucchi would acknowledge someone with strength so much below his to such a great extent.

My conclusion is that Jyabura's devil fruit power far overshadows Lucchi's, hence after transformation, both have a very close douriki level. Say, since Lucchi's is a leopard, a semi-strong feline, Jyabura's would be a wolf, the strongest (?) canine around. Is that a plausible idea?

Some people mentioned that since Lucchi is a leopard, Jyabura can't be a wolf, since it's too far off in terms of power from Lucchi. I believe the opposite. Discuss, and opinion-barrage this thread please.

Irresistiblement

I agree with you, his DF would have to be something to even out the odds a bit… I can totally see Jyabura being a Wolf-Model Zoan. But in the end, Lucci is still the one on top. I suppose that Jyabura would have no trouble surpassing Kaku in terms of douriki... so that would make him the second strongest, but as for surpassing Lucci? I doubt it.

Bloodfoot

Interesting idea! If we take a cat versus dog idea and run with it…

I'm pretty sure that there is at least one bigger and badder wild canine that the wolf. I'm websearching the topic right now; be back later on that.

I do know that the leopard is the largest and strongest of the jungle cats.

Irresistiblement

I always thought that the tiger was the most powerful. :molly:

EDIT - Don't mind me… not a jungle cat.

Kakaliaha

Dingo maybe? Dingos are pretty vicious, have been know to steal babies right out from the crib and parents don't know until they wake up, of course that was a while ago, and wolfs have been known to do that as well.

Bloodfoot

OK. First pass of canine information: the grey wolf is the biggest wild canine at a weight of 25-45 kilograms. Next is the hyena, at 28-35, and the dingo is 10-24. Jackal is out of the running, since Chaka had that one. Not even looking sizes up, but I know they're small.

@Irresistiblement:

I always thought that the tiger was the most powerful. :molly:

EDIT - Don't mind me… not a jungle cat.

Wait! You may be right. Leopard is the biggest in SOUTH AMERICA, not the world. Gotta look that up, now.

Bloodfoot

This post is deleted!

Kakaliaha

Unfortunatly, a hyena is canine but not related to wild dogs or wolfs, or domestic dogs, and are much closer related to a mongoose or meerkats. But I could see it as a hyena they are known for one of the most powerful jaws and from what I here can take down a Lion, one on one.

Edit. and aren't their some Jungle Tigers in Asia?

Bloodfoot

They're still canid, so it's viable. (Besides, no nitpicky on a tentative theory!) A hyena really can't go one-on-one with a healthy lion, but a sick or injured one, yeah.

Still looking at tigers. (Holy crapping Christ are there a ton of redundant "Save the Tiger" websites.)

PS As I'm a casual, lazy-shit armchair zoologist, it's A-OK to dispute me all over the place.

Phlemingo

Actually after transformation, I'd think his power would be about the same as Lucci's, and since Luffy takes Lucchi and (i think) zoro takes Jyabura, the luffy<>zoro strength range will once again remain mysterious.

Dingoes? I think we've been through it, that Dingoes are scavengers, and are in actual fact pretty weak animals…

It could be a hyena, I actually quite like that idea of him going berserker mode rokushiki! Is a hyena stronger than a wolf?

Sigh, it's a bit hard deciding what, because domestic cats < domestic dogs but wild cats >>> wild dogs on a whole. Thanks for the replies guys!

Btw, there are Tigers in Asia, and they are much, much stronger than leopards. Besides, not everything's about muscle, is it? Lions are lighter than Tigers, but are still a great match for them. Speed! Then there's jaguars, cheetahs, panthers, all along the line of leopard. There's so much more diversity in big cats than wild dogs... sigh.

Oro Jackson

He's Chinese-looking so maybe it's an animal found in China? Maybe it's a dragon? I doubt that though, lol.

Phlemingo

Oh dear, that would be over, overkill.

EDIT: just checked it up, and I really couldn't find anything that would be larger than a gray wolf. I suppose inu inu fruit model gray wolf wouldn't be that bad. Gray wolf was listed as biggest non-domestic canid though… what if jyabura gets a domestic breed? o.0

Irresistiblement

It could be a domesticated breed… after all, we do have the Daschund model of the Inu Inu fruit... so why not? The only problem I see with this would be the strength factor of the animals- no matter how you slice it, a domesticated dog can not compete with a wild cat.

Though, if he were to get a domesticated breed... I think a Doberman would be awesome. Or maybe a Chow.

Phlemingo

Yeah, it's the strength factor when I was thinking about a domestic breed. Chow Chows are cute I've got one. It growls and barks real scary when strangers disturb it though.

Buccaneer

Leopards suck. Lions are the fiercest, cheetahs are the fastest, tigers are the biggest. Leopards and cougars are just leftover cats. Cougars are the worst, though.

@Phlemingo:

Lucchi and Jyabura have some sort of rivalry, I think everyone agrees.

To have an equal rivalry such as theirs, both parties must be equal in strength, I believe.

Lucchi's douriki is almost 2000 higher than Jyabura's… that is a fact.

If that's the case, why does Lucchi still consider Jyabura a rival of his, even though his douriki without zoan transformation is so much higher? Lucchi even was beginning to morph into his leopard form if not for CP9 breaking their fight up. It puzzles me greatly why Lucchi would acknowledge someone with strength so much below his to such a great extent.

My conclusion is that Jyabura's devil fruit power far overshadows Lucchi's, hence after transformation, both have a very close douriki level. Say, since Lucchi's is a leopard, a semi-strong feline, Jyabura's would be a wolf, the strongest (?) canine around. Is that a plausible idea?

Some people mentioned that since Lucchi is a leopard, Jyabura can't be a wolf, since it's too far off in terms of power from Lucchi. I believe the opposite. Discuss, and opinion-barrage this thread please.

I think you're putting too much into the "douriki" thing. It didn't measure overall, just strength, if anything. Or "athletics," as stephen had Jabura and Lucci put it. It seems like you see it as DBZ power levels, where the higher number is just better in everything there is to be better in. Three things:

Speed. As Google research showed, big cats are bigger than wild dogs. Maybe Jabura has more speed?
Skill. Hitting power doesn't matter as much as some would think if the other fighter knows what he's doing.
Time. Jabura says that they've gotten stronger. Maybe his douriki was formerly equal to Lucci's? And it's not like they'd call in their rivalry after one just turns up stronger. Outdoing the other is what makes rivalries anyway.

Oh, and Lucci probably transformed to match him because if they fought, even if Jabura's DF powers couldn't match Lucci in strength, he'd probably be more ferocious. Ferocity is part of the reason that a dog sized wolverine can beat a 500 pound moose.

Vilia

@Kakaliaha:

Dingo maybe? Dingos are pretty vicious, have been know to steal babies right out from the crib and parents don't know until they wake up, of course that was a while ago, and wolfs have been known to do that as well.

Now Kakaliaha it was never conclusively proven that the dingo took Azaria without help - I don't think dingos can undo buttons

I like the idea of Jabura turning into a wolf, he could be a chinese grey wolf. Or how about a Pekinese? he he he

Could Jabura be a Snow Leopard or Ounce Uncia uncia as opposed to Lucci who I thought was an ordinary leopard Panthera pardus? The Ounce is not a true leopard but is a large cat - a bit like a Lynx (the cat not the shoe). Could there be two such DFs?

btw isn't the hyena form already taken by Bellamy??

EDIT: to make it clearer, I was refering to hyena characteristics.

Phlemingo

Lol, no. Bellamy is a Hyena as much as Luffy is a Monkey. It's just a name. He was bane bane, a paramecia fruit, the spring fruit.

Vilia

Yeah I know that, but he had the name, the crazy laugh and the wild expression on his face - is there more to a hyena that could be explored in zoan form? I thought that pretty much covered the species. Anyways hyenas are scavangers not fighters - they pick up the remains after the big cats have left. I don't see a hyena being able to take on a leopard. It would get minced.

bandit_legend

Dingos are just normal dogs imported from china to kill of rabbits in australia. They soon became wild though, but that still doesn't change the fact that they're still a normal dog, strength wise and whatever. What about a great dane? Heh heh, those are like as big as ponys. If you want vicious, how about a pitbull or something along those lines?

Vilia

Actually bandit_legend I thought the dingos were introduced by the Aboringines thousands of years ago. They did interbreed with domestic dogs so there are aren't many pure bred dingos still alive but there is a pack on Fraser Island off Queensland, Australia that is about as pure as they come.

One on one dingos mightn't be that strong but in real life as they usually hunt in packs it isn't that much of a problem. On the other hand, as there is only one Jabura and not an entire pack, it would be a problem for him, if he is indeed a dingo going up against a leopard (Lucci).

Hyper Dingo

@Vilia:

Actually bandit_legend I thought the dingos were introduced by the Aboringines thousands of years ago. They did interbreed with domestic dogs so there are aren't many pure bred dingos still alive but there is a pack on Fraser Island off Queensland, Australia that is about as pure as they come.

One on one dingos mightn't be that strong but in real life as they usually hunt in packs it isn't that much of a problem. On the other hand, as there is only one Jabura and not an entire pack, it would be a problem for him, if he is indeed a dingo going up against a leopard (Lucci).

We have a winner! XD And i really hope that Jubura doesnt have the dingp fruit…thats what my one piece OC has T_T

Oro Jackson

Maybe one of these?

Paulie

Jeez. What's wrong with you people?

They're rivals because they always had been rivals. Back in the past, it is quite likely that Jabura and Lucci were equal or near-equal in power, but it's been five damn years. Lucci's power has grown substantially whereas Jabura's has not. I think it's pretty clear that Jabura and Lucci are nowhere near each other in skill any more; after all, why would Jabura worry about being stronger than Kaku if his DF lets him near equal Lucci?

It's pretty clear; Lucci is by far the strongest, so Luffy gets him. Jabura and Kaku, being the second strongest characters, go to Zoro and Sanji. Jeez.

Buccaneer

@Paulie:

why would Jabura worry about being stronger than Kaku if his DF lets him near equal Lucci?

No one can really say, that also depends on where they stood 5 years ago.

Solid

Maybe Jabura is a mane wolf..

Paulie

Like I said; Lucci and Jabura were true rivals five years ago. Kaku would have been nowhere near either. Now Jabura and Kaku stand about the same level, whereas Lucci has moved beyond.

littleredstrawhat

Alright lets think about this. Luchi is a leopard. A large sturdy African cat known more for its streangth than its speed. It is the worlds highest jumping mammal and is an expert climer capable of draging kills near it's own size up trees to safety.

If I were to guess his rival's zoan….I would say it would be a hyena.

Polygon

@Paulie:

Jeez. What's wrong with you people?

They're rivals because they always had been rivals. Back in the past, it is quite likely that Jabura and Lucci were equal or near-equal in power, but it's been five damn years. Lucci's power has grown substantially whereas Jabura's has not. I think it's pretty clear that Jabura and Lucci are nowhere near each other in skill any more; after all, why would Jabura worry about being stronger than Kaku if his DF lets him near equal Lucci?

It's pretty clear; Lucci is by far the strongest, so Luffy gets him. Jabura and Kaku, being the second strongest characters, go to Zoro and Sanji. Jeez.

It's not as simple as that. We don't know enoughf about them to conclude that. Remember when it was measured it was about the current state. So, for all we know he does have a DF that makes him stronger. Since zoan can have different strebghs for each form. But then again maybe you're right and he only was turning into a leopard to do him in as much a possible.

Bloodfoot

Hell, I'm getting in on this particular speculation because I like animals. If Jabura turns out to be something entirely different, my feelings aren't going to be hurt.

Phlemingo

Paulie: Relax…

I know that Lucci has to be the strongest enemy, but looking at douriki (which isn't that super accurate, but it's what we got to compare) we know how strong he is. How much more strength will a leopard fruit give him? Maybe what, 3 times? 12000 douriki? That's 6 friggin times Kaku's and Jabura's. I'm just speculating that maybe Jabura's fruit makes him 5 times stronger or something to that extent, still placing him below Lucci but at a more rivalable level.

I'm aware that Jabura might've been near Lucci's level back then, and this is just a theory of my own that the DF fruits balance out their strength. It's still established that Lucci has to be the strongest though.

Btw, it's a given that Jabura > Kaku ...

Paulie

I don't think it gives them a boost that big. Nor do I think it's a given that Jabura is stronger than Kaku. I'm thinking a small but noticable boost, not a "Hey look I've gone super saiyan" kind of power jump.

Oda wouldn't say Kaku is the second strongest only for him not to be.

Phlemingo

Actually from prior experience, Lucci had indeed shot way past his former power after transforming. Perhaps I exaggerated a bit but yeah, it was alot, alot more, seeing the way he shigan'd Luffy and the power of Rankyaku after transformation.

Did Oda ever say Kaku is the second strongest? If anything, he hinted that Jabura was second strongest. Furthermore Douriki isn't a sure fire way of who's stronger, more of who's got more speed/power. A (maybe) 20 Douriki Usopp beating a 2200 douriki Kaku wouldn't do much for Douriki's power measurement accuracy would it?

Buccaneer

Jabura goes "hey! I have DF powers, so I could still beat you!" and Kaku says he doesn't care. I think that strongly hints that Jab's still the 2nd man.

bandit_legend

@Vilia:

Actually bandit_legend I thought the dingos were introduced by the Aboringines thousands of years ago. They did interbreed with domestic dogs so there are aren't many pure bred dingos still alive but there is a pack on Fraser Island off Queensland, Australia that is about as pure as they come.

One on one dingos mightn't be that strong but in real life as they usually hunt in packs it isn't that much of a problem. On the other hand, as there is only one Jabura and not an entire pack, it would be a problem for him, if he is indeed a dingo going up against a leopard (Lucci).

Bah, shows what I know about my own country. Must have them mixed up with something else then…....

Ivotas

@Buccaneer:

Jabura goes "hey! I have DF powers, so I could still beat you!" and Kaku says he doesn't care. I think that strongly hints that Jab's still the 2nd man.

Yeah and Don Krieg thinks that heÂ´s the strongest pirate and Luffy doesnÂ´t care. People who lose sight of their objective because of their ego mostly lose against those who donÂ´t have an ego problem. Not because they are weaker but because their ego hinders them on giving all they got. And so far Jabura seems to have some ego problems while Kaku is the calm guys what would give him an advantage in a fight.

Buccaneer

Krieg and Luffy challenged each other, Kaku was indifferent.

Ivotas

DoesnÂ´t negate the ego argument though. Besides Jabura appears to be very competative and if it wouldnÂ´t be for his superior Spandam he maybe would have already started a fight because of his ego.

Buccaneer

Yeah, I agree about his ego. But there's a chance that Kaku knows he can't beat Jabura anyway, since he doesn't even care.

Phlemingo

To argue it technically, leopards are definitely many times stronger than people. What Lucci said: Zoan forms' strength increase as you train them. Hence you have a 4000 douriki normal Lucci but a god-only-knows douriki many-times-stronger animal form.

Now applying this to Jabura, I think it can very easily cover the 20 douriki difference between him and Kaku. So what if Kaku is calm? If he just can't match Jabura in speed and strength, there really isn't a contest.

Ivotas

@Buccaneer:

Yeah, I agree about his ego. But there's a chance that Kaku knows he can't beat Jabura anyway, since he doesn't even care.

It is likely because as Lucci stated back in Water 7 only Zoan types boost your speed or was it athletics up. ThatÂ´s actually why he and Jabura are so large Zoans. ItÂ´s a combo of the DF and Rokushiki.
But as it says in the Pirelli commercial "Power is nothing without Control". If he loses control because of his ego, then Kaku can overcome him since heÂ´s always the calm and sneaky guy for the final strike (remember when he took down Zoro and Sanji?).

ItÂ´s like in every sports game no matter what sport. Not the one with the strongest shot or punch, highest jump, best tenchnique or whatsoever is always the winner. ItÂ´s the one who knows the strenghtÂ´s and weaknesses of both himself (his team) and the opponent (team) and knows how to overcome it who wins the game. And Kaku seems like the kind of guy. ThatÂ´s why I said back then that he appears to be the second strongest.

Buccaneer

Maybe. I can't argue in skill yet, but I'm confident Jabura is at least stronger. But kaku only got those shots because they weren't looking. XD

Ivotas

ThatÂ´s what makes a good strategist. In sports you score mostly because other guys make mistakes. But just making a mistake isnÂ´t enough you also need the one to take advantage of that. If thereÂ´s nobody of the class to take advantage then you can make lots of mistakes and still win. Know what I mean?

wolfwood

im pretty convinced that Jabura is second in command both in leadership,fighting skills and tactics second only to Luchi since its already been proven that hes second strongest and going by the fact that hes in command of the Second division of CP9 id assume that hes gotta a pretty big brain on him to not just brawn,

but Kaku seems to be closing in too fast for comfort in the fighting department(thought hes still out matched by Jaburas) which seems to be pissing Jabs off.

but i still stand by my notion that Kaku will have a hard time 1-on-1 when he doesnt have any confusion to take advantage off or some cheap shots to get in but i suppose we will see soon.

Ivotas

@wolfwood:

since its already been proven that hes second strongest and going by the fact that hes in command of the Second division of CP9

IÂ´m sorry if we get back to that discussion wolfwood but where exactly is it a fact that he is in command of a second division. Moreso where it is evidentally proven that there is a second division and third if there really is two divisions who says that the one with Jabura is first? You just make things up and claim for them to be facts.

And one last thing, it is not proven that he is second strongest. Just because he thinks that he is stronger then Kaku it doesnÂ´t mean that it is like that. Don Krieg also thought that heÂ´s the most powerful and even attacked Mihawk because of that attitude. Does that mean he is stronger then Mihawk just because he said so?

Buccaneer

Implied things have almost as much weight as things stated. They don't have to tell you Zoro has earrings, do they?

8 members. 4 of them go on a certain mission for 5 years, and 3 of the others do different missions during the time, reporting back to the one that doesn't attend missions. they may not have titles like "division leader," but CP9 has been divided for all this time, so technically, they are divisions.

Jabura being the second group's leader is as obvious as Lucci being the first's. They never say commander Lucci or anything, Spandam is the only ranked one. But we still know Lucci's at least top dog of the main four, and it'd only make sense for Jabura to be the other's.

And it's pretty much stated that Jabura is second strongest. He's behind Kaku by 20 measly points, without transforming. Why would he even bother using his powers if they barely affect his strength?

wolfwood

yup seriously i get the feeling your just trying to take down my arguments on technicaltys sure it hasnt been said but so heaily implied,
just like franky joining its been so implied that people can see it even thought it hasnt been stated,
if i started saying at this point well Paulie is gonna join instead you would just say christ not this again doesnt he see its as good as proven wrong and this is just how i see this argument,

hes stronger cause theres only a 20 diffrence normaly putting them on equal fotting and his Zoan type DF amplifies the users strenth many times thus putting him out of Kakus league you cant argue with that,

hes the one whos taking charge of his group or divsion and as buc said that is just as obvious as that Luchi is the leader of the first i dont see why you want to argue with that.

Ivotas

@Buccaneer:

Implied things have almost as much weight as things stated. They don't have to tell you Zoro has earrings, do they?

No they donÂ´t have to tell me because I can see it as everyone else who isnÂ´t blind. What kind of argument is that anyway? :laugh:

8 members. 4 of them go on a certain mission for 5 years, and 3 of the others do different missions during the time, reporting back to the one that doesn't attend missions. they may not have titles like "division leader," but CP9 has been divided for all this time, so technically, they are divisions.

Doing things seperately doesnÂ´t necessarily mean that there are divisions. WeÂ´ve seen Usopp and Chopper work together alone, so what if there would have been a very easy task just for Kumadori and Fukuro whereÂ´s the division logic then?
I understand wolfwoods idea behind it but still it is jumping to conclusions deviding a group of 8 people in two devisions somehow just doesnÂ´t sound right. WeÂ´ve so far only one time heard of a division and that is the second division of the Whitebeard pirates. And as little as we have seen of them they still are more then just eight guys.

Jabura being the second group's leader is as obvious as Lucci being the first's. They never say commander Lucci or anything, Spandam is the only ranked one. But we still know Lucci's at least top dog of the main four, and it'd only make sense for Jabura to be the other's.

Making sense is something different then saying that it is a fact. As I said I understand why Jabura would lead the pack if it is the three guys together, but it just isnÂ´t a fact that there is something as different divisions. TheyÂ´ve just been seperated. And I donÂ´t think that the seperation follows a division but skills for a mission. Would you really send Fukuro on a five year undercover mission at Water 7? DidnÂ´t think so.

And it's pretty much stated that Jabura is second strongest. He's behind Kaku by 20 measly points, without transforming. Why would he even bother using his powers if they barely affect his strength?

The last sentence confuses me. Because the way I read it his DF powers barely affect his strenght what would mean that you are saying that he actually is behind Kaku even if he is transformed. Or am I misunderstanding things here? :wacko:

Polygon

Actually if you think about it. Jabura is only 20 behind Kaku as a human. Remember that in zoan type fruits each body can be trained seperatly.So we have no idea how much stronger he wwill be when he transforms. And even if the DF doesn't give much power-wise, 20 Douriku is not that much. So he will be able to be stronger than Kakau atleast by a small margin.

Ivotas

@wolfwood:

yup seriously i get the feeling your just trying to take down my arguments on technicaltys sure it hasnt been said but so heaily implied,
just like franky joining its been so implied that people can see it even thought it hasnt been stated,

Hey I was just getting back at the itÂ´s a "fact" that he is the leader of the second division. It is only a fact if it is mentioned like that. In my hundreds of Franky will join posts youÂ´ll never heard me saying that it is a fact that heÂ´ll join I only said why it makes most sense. And I see why to you it makes sense that Jabura leads guys like Fukuro and Kumadori because I think so too but thereÂ´s no fact for having division one and to especially when actually Jabura could be leader of division one and Lucci of division two. IÂ´m not interestend in having a real argument here, I just wanted to say that we shouldnÂ´t label things a proven facts just because they are plausible to us. You, Buccaneer, I and the other guys over here who take part in the really big discussions and are able to express their idea in in constructive thoughts and words understand it most of it. But thereÂ´s also people who donÂ´t bother to read and understand what most of us say and then they run around making threads and posts on what guys like us say thinking that it is official facts.

IÂ´m not really disagreeing with you, I just think you should reconsider the wording a little bit because sooner or later youÂ´ll get quoted by somebody for something you said, but never meant that way like the third person claims it to be. Understand what I mean?

wolfwood

oh i see ill start thinking about my wording thanks for the tip bro=)