@Baou:
Well,Akainu can't use haki in logia form.Like,he can't surround his magma fist with haki-power.
We don't know this for sure. But he is Admiral Akainu, chances are he can use Haki with his fruit, much like Hancock did with her Pistol Kiss.
@Baou:
Well,Akainu can't use haki in logia form.Like,he can't surround his magma fist with haki-power.
We don't know this for sure. But he is Admiral Akainu, chances are he can use Haki with his fruit, much like Hancock did with her Pistol Kiss.
OK, Lets pretend its Very Shaky Assumptions cause We will Just go in Circles until we see more from Shanks.However I disagree with you on the 4 Yonkou being like the Monster Trio in Strength Because Shanks/Kaido/BM maybe can be like Luffy/Zoro/Sanji However WB Separates himself with the Another Title The Strongest Man In the World.
No need to pretend. Yes you already said this. I already told you I disagree completely as this makes no logical sense
This is your Misunderstanding towards me on your part. I've never Implied this. An Admiral Individually Fighting lets say Shanks Would be Just like Akainu Vs. Kuzan, With the Admiral Barely winning towards the end.
If this was really the case the Yonkou wouldn't have ever existed. The goverment would have crushed them
Another Misunderstanding you've Picked up on me.I've Stated What Oda Stated that all 7 Shichibukai and Marines Exist to Counter(NOT DEFEAT or even take on.) the 4 yonkou at Once.Counter Can be Interpreted in many different ways than.
The WG would be Destroyed EASILY by the Yonkou if they ever unite.
I don't think it's a misunderstanding since you know this has been going on for five six pages now. More like you finally realising that your notion that the WG can fight them all at once is silly to everybody in this thread/universe. But I am glad at least that's over.
too much repetition…. but I try to explain myself further Below.[/.quote]
God I hope soI Agree on Both of what you Guys are saying.However this is More About the Yonkou the Individuals than Their Entire Influence.
Whitebeard Being the Exception Among them Being the Worlds Strongest Man.If you reread My old posts you will See what i was trying to Clarify and what it came down to.:sad:
If I were to stand by what Oda has Given us by saying ALL 7 Shichibukai(with the Marines side)+ Marines to Counter ALL 4 at once.
I would have to Make them seem Stronger than the Yonkou even 2 of them Together (Not INCLUDING WHITEBEARD.) Whitebeard is an Exception Because Oda has Given him the Title of the Strongest Man in the World(which puts him Alone Individually Above the Rest Easily)
Admirals are the Back Bone of the Marines If they go down than there pretty much dead. I do not see any of the Yonkou being able to Defeat a Admiral 1 on 1.(Original Admirals)Except WB.This sems to be pretty much a repetition of your points that :
1. Whitebeard is in a whole other level then the other Younkou and can defeat them easily
2. Admirals can take on Younkou by themselvesAnd both of this both points don't make sense in the OP world because then the whole blance wouldn't exist. The WG would have crushed the Younkou ages ago na Kaidou would have never dared to go toe to toe with Whitebeard. I know that your impressed by titles but seriously dude the entire world structure makes more sense then speculating over a title
Not the entire island, just the battle field.
Plus Kizaru and Aokiji couldn't stop the earthquake after he hit Akainu. They didn't even attempt to face Whitebeard after seeing that.
As long as there was even a shred of foot hold left Whitebeard would've been dealt with swiftly.
Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk, Kuma, Boa, Don, Croc, Moria, Garp, Sengoku, Smoker, and Blackbeard all gunning for Whitebeard at the same time, with no distractions, and no one to watch his back.
And this if of course assuming that the 12 vice-admirals can't even be useful as distractions, who all know the six forms and hence doesn't really need a foot hold at all.
@Baou:
It makes perfect sense.When Teach punched Ace,it could of been the first punch has taken in a long time.Those punches Whitebeard gave him dont count.
You said that Ace would no doubt face a whole lotta haki users.Well,thats nice,but who's to say that any of 'em would land a punch on Ace.It's not just Ace dodging,etc,but Ace could just blow them up before they get to him.
So,again,it makes perfect sense.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
he doesnt stretch him limbs out.You can think of it like this.his 'real body' is in the same proportions,but when he creates his swamp,he doesnt stretch out his 'real body' along with it.. No. You know when a logia user shoots out there hand to choke or hit someone and then their element is attached to their physical hand and body. That's what i was wondering how haki would affect it.
@Baou:
Well,Akainu can't use haki in logia form.Like,he can't surround his magma fist with haki-power.
How did he punch through Ace?
Ace let him punch him.
Doesn't matter if Ace did or not, You still need a way to tag him.
! Red Dog used Haki to blast Ace, that is obvious.
As long as there was even a shred of foot hold left Whitebeard would've been dealt with swiftly.
Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk, Kuma, Boa, Don, Croc, Moria, Garp, Sengoku, Smoker, and Blackbeard all gunning for Whitebeard at the same time, with no distractions, and no one to watch his back.
And this if of course assuming that the 12 vice-admirals can't even be useful as distractions, who all know the six forms and hence doesn't really need a foot hold at all.
I think you're SEVERELY underestimating Whitebeard. First of all you have the balls to say swiftly. Theres no proof of any of this?.This is all theoretical. First Croc wouldn't join in with the rest of them, I have no idea why Moria would be there, the other marines would never team up with BB, Smoker not once ever went for WB, and neither did Garp or Don or Boa or Mihawk. Yes they were all supposed to be on the side against Whitebeard, but most of these guys did not go against him even with orders.
Plus wouldn't one quake to the chest take all if not most of these guys down?
I don't think so. As we have seen with water and sea stone Luffy's body remains rubber always. He can't revert back to human. I think it's more a case similar to logia where he can be more easily hurt by physical attacks
No, that's literally how the Yami Yami no mi works
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2651-7/one-piece/chapter-544.html
If Blackbeard grabs you, your devil fruit is turned off. End of story.
As long as there was even a shred of foot hold left Whitebeard would've been dealt with swiftly.
Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk, Kuma, Boa, Don, Croc, Moria, Garp, Sengoku, Smoker, and Blackbeard all gunning for Whitebeard at the same time, with no distractions, and no one to watch his back.
And this if of course assuming that the 12 vice-admirals can't even be useful as distractions, who all know the six forms and hence doesn't really need a foot hold at all.
Gonna play devil's advocate here :ninja:
WB was very sick, but I'm not going to extrapolate and try to assume what would have happened with all the many different circumstances that could have occurred.
But… how would everyone you mentioned above have fared against a WB and his crew if WB were in good health, and didn't have to worry about saving Ace.
WB came to war dealing with illness, a planned out strategy against him, and needing to work his way through bullets, cannons, swords and DF powers to try to save one person.
Afterall, WB wasn't even well enough to use a CoC haki blast to get rid of the fodder.
So, yes, he did not have the advantage, and he lost, but I don't think we can really extrapolate from what happened during the war how WB would have performed (with things equal on both sides) against one or more of the above mentioned characters individually, or all at once.
Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, Mihawk, Kuma, Boa, Don, Croc, Moria, Garp, Sengoku, Smoker, and Blackbeard all gunning for Whitebeard at the same time, with no distractions, and no one to watch his back.
Whitebeard had his entire CREW watch his back. Mihawk attacked Whitebeard, guess who blocked it? Jozu. Croc attacked Whitebeard? Stopped by Luffy. Marco even deflected Kizaru's lasers.
Whitebeard's crew (and friends) is just as important as Whitebeard himself when ranking him as a Yonkou.
How did he punch through Ace?
Ace let him punch him.
Doesn't matter if Ace did or not, You still need a way to tag him.
! Red Dog used Haki to blast Ace, that is obvious.
magma is superior to fire.Oda said it specificly through Akainu.It wasn't a haki thing,it was that his ability can hurt Ace, that magma burned his fire.If it doesnt make sense,well,thats how it works in One Piece.
Akainu didnt say anything about his haki being the reason he hurt Ace.God,you people….
!
I'm pretty sure Ace let Akainu punch him on purpose. If he hadn't, the magma fist would have gone through him and killed Luffy instead.
I think you're SEVERELY underestimating Whitebeard. First of all you have the balls to say swiftly. Theres no proof of any of this?.This is all theoretical. First Croc wouldn't join in with the rest of them, I have no idea why Moria would be there, the other marines would never team up with BB, Smoker not once ever went for WB, and neither did Garp or Don or Boa or Mihawk. Yes they were all supposed to be on the side against Whitebeard, but most of these guys did not go against him even with orders.
Plus wouldn't one quake to the chest take all if not most of these guys down?
He was saying it in the situation that WB went there ALONE. In which case all of those people quoted basically, except Croc would have been fighting WB. At least that's what I got out of it.
@Baou:
magma is superior to fire.Oda said it specificly through Akainu.It wasn't a haki thing,it was that his ability can hurt Ace, that magma burned his fire.If it doesnt make sense,well,thats how it works in One Piece.
Akainu didnt say anything about his haki being the reason he hurt Ace.God,you people….
! http://www.mangatoyou.com/img/One_Piece/000281412/14-15.jpg
Ah, I faintly knew he said something like that, but was too lazy to check back.
Thank you.
Gonna play devil's advocate here :ninja:
WB was very sick, but I'm not going to extrapolate and try to assume what would have happened with all the many different circumstances that could have occurred.
But… how would everyone you mentioned above have fared against a WB and his crew if WB were in good health, and didn't have to worry about saving Ace.
WB came to war dealing with illness, a planned out strategy against him, and needing to work his way through bullets, cannons, swords and DF powers to try to save one person.
Afterall, WB wasn't even well enough to use a CoC haki blast to get rid of the fodder.So, yes, he did not have the advantage, and he lost, but I don't think we can really extrapolate from what happened during the war how WB would have performed (with things equal on both sides) against one or more of the above mentioned characters individually, or all at once.
Whitebeard had his entire CREW watch his back. Mihawk attacked Whitebeard, guess who blocked it? Jozu. Croc attacked Whitebeard? Stopped by Luffy. Marco even deflected Kizaru's lasers.
Whitebeard's crew (and friends) is just as important as Whitebeard himself when ranking him as a Yonkou.
Both of you guys should reread the conversation on the previous page…
cause your misunderstanding him.
I'm pretty sure Ace let Akainu punch him on purpose. If he hadn't, the magma fist would have gone through him and killed Luffy instead.
when their attacks collided and ace gets burned,Ace was in fire form.But yeah,he prolly let Akainu punch his real body when shielding Luffy.
It's backed by what? Show me the page where it explicitly says that Mihawk and Shanks are equal. If you can't do that then it's backed by nothing and it stays your own stubborn speculation.
Here you go.
! http://i14.mangareader.net/one-piece/50/one-piece-2421503.jpg
! http://i6.mangareader.net/one-piece/50/one-piece-2421505.jpg
! http://i13.mangareader.net/one-piece/52/one-piece-2421585.jpg
! http://i4.mangareader.net/one-piece/96/one-piece-2422013.jpg
! http://i16.mangareader.net/one-piece/434/one-piece-63470.jpg
Interpret it however you want or deny it if you want.
Shanks=Mihawk
Regardless of how times have changed or how long its been since they fought until we see a difference between the 2 Individuals there Equal.
@Enzeru:
Read that page. Read it twice if you don't understand it the first time. Garp is talking about Whitebeard and Shanks and calls them Yonkou. He's neither mentioning their crews nor is he saying "Oh right, your friend Shanks and his men are also a Yonkou". He is only talking about Shanks and Whitebeard as individuals. Yonkou are single persons and no fucking whole crews. Get that finally.
On the matter of Yonkou:
Enzeru is right. Yonkou is a title bestowed on a person as a result this single person is recognized as a yonkou.
When someone talks of a yonkou they are referring to one of 4 pirate captains that reign over a part of the new world and not their respective crew.On the other hand it's not like I don't get where you're coming from Applesauce you're just wording it wrong.
I think what you mean is, that the requirements for someone to be recognized as a yonkou include some form of military might which mostly likely comes in the form of a strong crew and allies. Which is most likely true, being an absurdly strong individual alone would most likely make one not a yonkou.It's the difference of it's semantic meaning and the meaning of the nature of the word (as in all of its implications).
So my two cents, in discussion stay with the semantic meaning because these are meant to be used as a means to get your info across. If you want to reference the nature of a word make it very clear.
Exactly what he said.
Thank You DarthAsthma as you can tell my grammar and vocabulary is horrible.
one of the reasons why am here.If your gonna continue to read this mess(agree or disagree doesn't matter)please do clarify my words if you think i need it(which i know i will) Thanks.
@incinerator:
A person is a Yonkou, or one of the Four Emperors, because they are rulers. It is totally ridiculous to say someone being an "Emperor" has nothing to do with their crew. If they didn't have a powerful crew, how could they be expected to rule over their territories and be a power player in the New World? One person can't be everywhere all the time.
Take, for example, the Queen of England. As an individual, she is the Queen, and her subjects are not. However, if you take away England and all the people living in it, you couldn't exactly call her a queen anymore could you?
Thank You incinerator.
@Enzeru:
And what about that crap that Shanks is on the same level as Sakazuki or Kuzan? Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support your 'theory'? Again – show me.
Here we go again. How do you know that Shanks would lose against an admiral? What are you basing your words on? Was there any interaction between Shanks and an admiral -- except the one where he easily blocked Sakazuki's punch -- that makes your words seem believable? That's the third opportunity for you to prove me wrong by showing me evidence.
If I think the Marines are the Most powerful force in the World Where the Admirals are the Backbone and am basing my argument around "The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou" Than I don't see the Admirals falling Except to the Strongest Man in the World. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME AGAIN… Please.
I've Said It before Counter does not mean to Defeat All 4 at Once or Even Take on All 4 To an Stalemate.
Nor am I implying that.
@Enzeru:
You would have to see actions from the rest to judge properly. Until that happens your theory is basically invalid. It doesn't matter how often you say it or how vehemently you try to defend it; it's nothing but speculation.
Agreed we need to wait for more action.
I wouldn't say Invalid but unlikely(I still think its most likely.)
Agreed Its Speculation we need to see more for it to be proven Wrong or Right.
@Enzeru:
Let's put it simple (that way you might understand it). The four Yonkou (Whitebeard, Shanks, Kaidou and Big Mam) are equal in terms of strength and power; that's an actual fact since it's in the manga itself. Now Whitebeard fought against Sakazuki and rather effortlessly defeated him. Got it so far? Good let's continue. Now imagine Sakazuki fighting against Kaidou (don't forget, he's one of the equal Yonkou) for example. Who would win you ask? Judging by the things we know about Yonkou and Sakazuki, only an idiot would think that one of the Yonkou couldn't defeat an admiral.
If your next post does again contain nothing but your asspuls which you mistakenly state as facts, then I'll gladly put you on my ignore list.
Not Likely. WB The Strongest Man in the World Separates himself from them. It would be an Honor to be in your Ignore list, am new to Debating and it takes me a while to type all this.It would make it easier for me that I have 1 less person to respond to.
@E7x:
As for what applesauce is saying, a yonkou's crew being generous is like half the strenght of the yonkou himself. From what we've seen from the Yonkou their power's are widely unmatched by anyone else.
If you disagree than go back, quote me, and prove anything I said as wrong.
Wrong The Marines are More Widely unmatched than A Yonkou.
OK, Lets pretend its Very Shaky Assumptions cause We will Just go in Circles until we see more from Shanks.However I disagree with you on the 4 Yonkou being like the Monster Trio in Strength Because Shanks/Kaido/BM maybe can be like Luffy/Zoro/Sanji However WB Separates himself with the Another Title The Strongest Man In the World.
No need to pretend. Yes you already said this. I already told you I disagree completely as this makes no logical sense
Quite Logical Indeed If you base you Argument around this assumption.
"The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou"
@Saturnchild:
I don't think it's a misunderstanding since you know this has been going on for five six pages now. More like you finally realising that your notion that the WG can fight them all at once is silly to everybody in this thread/universe. But I am glad at least that's over.
Nope your Misunderstanding me again. I've repeated myself Plenty of times that the WG cannot Fight them all at once.
@AppleSauce:
An Admiral Individually Fighting lets say Shanks Would be Just like Akainu Vs. Kuzan, With the Admiral Barely winning towards the end.
If this was really the case the Yonkou wouldn't have ever existed. The goverment would have crushed them.
This sems to be pretty much a repetition of your points that :
1. Whitebeard is in a whole other level then the other Younkou and can defeat them easily
2. Admirals can take on Younkou by themselves
And both of this both points don't make sense in the OP world because then the whole blance wouldn't exist. The WG would have crushed the Younkou ages ago na Kaidou would have never dared to go toe to toe with Whitebeard. I know that your impressed by titles but seriously dude the entire world structure makes more sense then speculating over a title
I Truly apologize for my lack of Explanations and Clarity.I'm Horrible at Writing. I know it's my fault this conversation has dragged, however i see this as a good opportunity to improve.
Your not seeing the Whole Picture or at least what i see. The World Government Rules over the Entire World and has so many task they have to do.They've got Stations Everywhere Around the World, East Blue, West Blue, North Blue, South Blue, and Many countries on the Grand line;Some are Under their Influence or part of their system.They have all of this power Globally, Which they must protect.
EXCEPT THE NEW WORLD.
The New World they have No Influence at all except that one base that they said G5 or G8.
In fact Its mentioned that The Yonkou Rule The New World as though they are Emperors.
The New World pretty much Belongs to the Yonkou where the WG has no Authority.
We will Get back to the New world later, Lets discuss something else for now.
The World Government(Marine+Shichibukai)was Severely at a loss of power when they fought Whitebread. They did not have their full power at that time.
Jinbei who Should be on the side of the WG was with WB
Blackbeard who Should be on the side of WG was fighting against them and made things Much worse for them(lvl 6 prisoners/Magellan)etc…
Hancock who should be on the side of the WG was fighting against them(she was the same as Blackbeard a separate party.)
Whitebeard had also gained far too many allies not part of his Influence.
Croc,Ivankov,Inuzuma,Luffy,Mr.1,Mr.3,Buggy,Level 6 Prisoners,Revolutionaries/Okama.
Every Single one of these guys Pretty much Saved WB's side when the War should have ended sooner(Except the last 3).
Given The Shichibukai are pirates who follow only their goals and will never risk there lives for the marines. I'm sure The WG expected this.
However having someone who should be on your side being against you is a big loss of power and gain for the opponent.
Even after all this loss at the end of the war Only 2 Vice Admirals were defeated 1 Admiral(All By Whitebeard alone),Moria who was defeated by Jinbei and a Bunch of nameless Captains and Fodders.They pretty much had 2 Admirals and A bunch Vice Admirals Garp and Sengoku Still Capable of fighting.
While on the Whitebeard Side it was a Complete loss. Marco Defeat by(Kizaru),Jozu Defeat by(AoiKiji),Crueil Defeat by(Akainu),Ace Dead(Akainu),Oars defeat(Shichibukai),WB dead(EVERYONE)and bunch of nameless Captains and Fodders. No one able to fight on this side Complete loss in Moral.
When Shanks Showed up do I think the WG was still capable of fighting and Winning. YES I DO.(See Further Explaination Below)
Had Shanks and Whitebeard Came together do I think the WG would have lost. YES I DO.
Simply Because of this.
"The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou" I've Said It before Counter does not mean to Defeat All 4 at Once or Even Take on All 4 To a Stalemate.
Nor am I implying that.
Why did Sengoku end it when he mostly new he can win. To put it Simply. His a good Guy, When Doberman the Vice Admiral says we should hang Whitebeard and Ace's Head as trophies for the World to see to Shanks Request of Handling there bodies Sengoku accepts this request of Shank.Also Shanks Later on Says Sengoku respected Whitebeard.Sengoku also says "ONLY because its you Red Hair", Sengoku knows what type of Pirate he is.
From a Stratigic and Human point of view Sengoku no longer wanted more Casulties. They got what they wanted. Akainu and others where just greedy for more.Mihawk/shichibukai's Agreements were to fight Whitebeard and not Shanks.More Power leaving their side.
Than There's Blackbeard who's Pretty much Causing Tsunami's and Earthquakes to Far away Islands/Destroying Marine Ford.
Moral on Both sides this times is Gone. Would the Marines have Beaten Shanks in this State. We don't know. Had Blackbeard said yes to Shanks offer to fight and focused on Shanks crew with his than the Marines could have taken advantage and won.
The Sitution was a no go from all sides as soon as Shanks should up. Pointless fighting as Shanks says it.
When Shanks Showed up do I think the WG was still capable of fighting and Winning. YES I DO.
I repeat this here so that you have a more clear understanding from my above paragraph.
BUT IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO AT THAT MOMENT.
Not Just due to the lack of Power but due to Chaos, Loss of Moral on both sides, Destrution, and Pointless fighting.
Now on to the New World.
@Saturnchild:
If this was really the case the Yonkou wouldn't have ever existed. The goverment would have crushed them.
But they can Exist where the world government has no power or influence.
The New world belongs to the Emperors. The WG would not Risk Going in there all out without a sure way to win.This is Dangerous Territory Even for a Admiral.
Whitebeard was the Perfect Example, Where they had a Sure way to Lure him out and Take the Advantage.
Ace was the bait to lure in the Whale. Undoubtly they knew, everyone knew he would come.
Like i said before The marines have Tasks All over the World and Stations where They must leave many strong people behind in order to guard.
Even When fighting Whitebeard, I'll bet you we will see many new Strong Marines Vice Admiral level who will be brand new characters and we will say where was he during the war.Where was Bogart?
Whitebeard wasn't the only Threat in the world at the time.
Also Now look it this way, When Sengoku, Garp, Aoikiji the Good side of the World Government were around They were Careful, Smart, and not Hungry for blood.
Now that their gone look what Akainu just did. His Pushing in the New World. Their Second Biggest Threat in the world is out of the way(Dragon Being 1st).
From the Statement that Jinbei made about Losing Aoikiji was a great lose,Not only him but Sengoku and Garp as well, "However to fill in that gap the Government gave the Marines unforseen Power. The Headquarters has become an even Stronger Army of Justice Under Akainu."
Yes all this is PURE SPECULATION however i stand by it if i were to believe this statement.
"The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou" I've Said It before Counter does not mean to Defeat All 4 at Once or Even Take on All 4 To a Stalemate.
The Yonkou Are Extremly Overestimated especially as Individuals who's not Whitebeard and The Marines and Shichibukai are Extremly underestimated.
I hope this post was much clear than my previous ones.
rofl you guys are still discussing power levels? Its impossible to guess who would win in a yonkou vs admiral fight.
i MUST say this however. You guys are retards for saying that admiral > yonkou. Either say that you dont know or say that yonkou is stronger. Let me clarify.
Rayleigh, the first mate of Gol D Roger, being old as he is, can easily deal with Kizaru
What gives you guys ANY idea that shanks is weaker than him? Whitebeard can pwn Akainu. Whitebeard = Rogers >= Rayleigh >= Admiras.
Now Shanks in his youth is no weaker than sick, old whitebeard. He may not be stronger, but is not weaker certainly. I can't believe you guys keep this "Strongest man in the world" crap hype you up forever. Yes he is the strongest man in the world. But he's only a man with one heart. He cannot win forever. Please listen to whitebeard. He is not god. Even the strongest man gets weak due to age, everyone noticed how weak he was compared to his former self. Marco pointed out that the old man could've easily dodged his ally's sword attack had he been younger.
I shall repeat. Whitebeard is the strongest man on earth, no doubt. But even the strongest men get weaker due to age and Shanks most likely does match his strength. I cant believe you guys think the other yonkous are far weaker than him. Their strengths are comparable. If you guys underestimate shanks again, please leave your address and I will go personally thump you.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Another quick note. The shichibukai and the marine exist to counter those 4. But in no way are those 4 allies. They counter themselves to an extent.
In fact, I would say that "The shichibukai and the marines exist to counter those 4 one-by-one". If 2 of them partnered up, the marines would be effed as noted by how much they were scared when shanks went to whitebeard. Please stop discussing power levels when you appear to know nothing of the concept. Just leave it at "they are all pretty strong" instead of saying that they can take shanks crew even after the war ended. No such thing. You underestimate shanks. Kizaru was pissing his pants when ben beckman ordered him to stop moving. I hate saying this, since I have no clue whether this is true or not. But Shanks can totally defeat Akainu. I dunno who came up with Akainu and Shanks will fight for a while, with Akainu being the victor. My guess is that the fight will last 2 mins if shanks actually wants to fight. Shanks is a calculated man, he sees no reason to fight unless he's enraged. and if he is, god save akainu's sorry little ass. Please dont fuck with a yonkou anymore! Thanks!
I do feel you are mistaken in your assumption of "7 Warlords + Marines counter ALL 4 Yonkous".
The reason why there is a balance is because the Yonkou are not allied and as such unlikely to gang up on the World Government. What's my proof? The marines insisted on getting everybody possible just to go against Whitebeard. If they could counter all 4 Yonkous by having all 7 Warlords, they wouldn't have wasted time trying to convince Hancock to join, nor would they have been agitated by Jinbei's refusal just to fight 1 mere Yonkou.
I also understand you meant all 4 Yonkou as in just their main crews and not allies? But there's no reason to assume that. Surely, the government/marines know of these allies and include them in their calculations?
WHY am I getting involved in this? I've been skimming so many posts in the hopes that these "discussions" will meet an end or something. Guess I'm just bored. Anyway, I'm gonna do my best to help better explain and pick apart certain opinions. And my apologies, AppleSauce, but my first target is you, simply because I can address a couple of your posts the easiest.
Here you go.
! http://i14.mangareader.net/one-piece/50/one-piece-2421503.jpg
! http://i6.mangareader.net/one-piece/50/one-piece-2421505.jpg
! http://i13.mangareader.net/one-piece/52/one-piece-2421585.jpg
! http://i4.mangareader.net/one-piece/96/one-piece-2422013.jpg
! http://i16.mangareader.net/one-piece/434/one-piece-63470.jpg
Interpret it however you want or deny it however you want.
Shanks=Mihawk
Very well, I shall interpret.
Page 1 fact: Stated by Zeff, Mihawk is more renown than any swordsman in the world.
Page 2 fact: Mihawk is titled as the "world's strongest swordsman".
Page 3 fact: Mihawk states he's waiting "at the top", reiterating his position of "world's strongest swordsman".
Page 4 facts: Mihawk and Shanks have fought in the past. Mihawk does not wish to duel with a one-armed man.
Page 5 fact: Mihawk and Shanks dueled in the past.
Conclusions that can be drawn from these facts:
Conclusions that cannot be drawn from only this information:
In short, you cannot state with conviction that they are equal in power. I'm not saying it's not possible, but you still haven't provided any real evidence to back it up. If you're reading something else into those pages, by all means, explain yourself instead of linking the image and saying, "If you can't figure it out, then I can't help you." Part of stating your case is actually identifying which facts back up your speculation. And from what I see, you've presented nothing to prove beyond a doubt that Mihawk is equal in power to Shanks. (Again, not saying it's not possible, it just can't be confirmed or refuted based on the information you've cited.)
When Shanks Showed up do I think the WG was still capable of fighting and Winning. YES I DO.
I repeat this here so that you have a more clear understanding from my above paragraph.
BUT IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO AT THAT MOMENT.
Not Just due to the lack of Power but due to Chaos, Loss of Moral on both sides, Destrution, and Pointless fighting.
I have a hard time accepting your arguments when you contradict yourself within the same paragraph. Right here, you say you think the WG was capable of fighting and winning… but just two sentences later you add that it was not possible to do at that moment. So they could win… but they couldn't because it was impossible. I don't know what you're trying to argue here, but I wanted to point out that you're definitely not getting your point across, whatever it may be.
I'm not gonna get involved with the rest of the arguments, though. I originally had a couple of statements here to argue about power levels or the whole Yonkou/Shichibukai/Marines balance issue, but I realized that I really didn't have anything to say. There's so much speculation involved in what's really happening in the New World that I feel there's nothing really to discuss. I've seen points raised by both sides in this discussion, but I don't feel like taking the time to pick them apart since it'd be like trying to catch fish in a torn net. They were kind of amusing to read at first, and I had some thoughts about it all, but after awhile I lost interest in debating it. Maybe a response or something will rekindle my interest.
On other notes, I'm looking forward to Jinbe traveling with the crew and finding out where they're headed to first in the New World. And here's to hoping that these little leftover plotlings from the Fishman Island arc swell into some pretty hefty problems down the road. (Looking mostly at Caribou's knowledge of Shirahoshi's powers.)
rofl you guys are still discussing power levels? Its impossible to guess who would win in a yonkou vs admiral fight.
i MUST say this however. You guys are retards for saying that admiral > yonkou. Either say that you dont know or say that yonkou is stronger. Let me clarify.
**Rayleigh, the first mate of Gol D Roger, being old as he is, can easily deal with Kizaru
What gives you guys ANY idea that shanks is weaker than him? Whitebeard can pwn Akainu. Whitebeard = Rogers >= Rayleigh >= Admiras.**
I Completely Disagree.We don't know how strong Rayleigh is compared to Shanks, he was Holding off Kizaru, not Easily. Rayleigh Couldn't do anything to save the Crew from Sentomaru pwning them.
As i have said Whitebeard Separates himself with the rest as Being the Worlds Strongest Just by how much everyone disagrees with me cause I'm saying by FAR.
Which is Something we need to find out, I will stand by until Proven other wise. "The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou" I've Said It before Counter does not mean to Defeat All 4 at Once or Even Take on All 4 To a Stalemate.
Now Shanks in his youth is no weaker than sick, old whitebeard. He may not be stronger, but is not weaker certainly. I can't believe you guys keep this "Strongest man in the world" crap hype you up forever. Yes he is the strongest man in the world. But he's only a man with one heart. He cannot win forever. Please listen to whitebeard. He is not god. Even the strongest man gets weak due to age, everyone noticed how weak he was compared to his former self. Marco pointed out that the old man could've easily dodged his ally's sword attack had he been younger.
I shall repeat. Whitebeard is the strongest man on earth, no doubt. But even the strongest men get weaker due to age and Shanks most likely does match his strength. I cant believe you guys think the other yonkous are far weaker than him. Their strengths are comparable. If you guys underestimate shanks again, please leave your address and I will go personally thump you.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Another quick note. The shichibukai and the marine exist to counter those 4. But in no way are those 4 allies. They counter themselves to an extent.
In fact, I would say that "The shichibukai and the marines exist to counter those 4 one-by-one". If 2 of them partnered up, the marines would be effed as noted by how much they were scared when shanks went to whitebeard. Please stop discussing power levels when you appear to know nothing of the concept. Just leave it at "they are all pretty strong" instead of saying that they can take shanks crew even after the war ended. No such thing. You underestimate shanks. Kizaru was pissing his pants when ben beckman ordered him to stop moving. I hate saying this, since I have no clue whether this is true or not. But Shanks can totally defeat Akainu. I dunno who came up with Akainu and Shanks will fight for a while, with Akainu being the victor. My guess is that the fight will last 2 mins if shanks actually wants to fight. Shanks is a calculated man, he sees no reason to fight unless he's enraged. and if he is, god save akainu's sorry little ass. Please dont fuck with a yonkou anymore! Thanks!
Well thats not what we were told and that is not what i'm basing off of.
And I saw your post where you Posted those pictures of Whitebeard Acknowledging he cant remain the Strongest forever. I agree Luffy, Blackbeard will Surpass him.He got Weak in his old age, Yet More than capable of never falling to the ground even with so much against him. I know your being forced to say things which you don't want to Just like I am (by Taking this stance that we have taken Especially me) However whatever I say or whatever anyone else says can't be proven until we see more. Most of you believe my assumption are Way off from your some of your point of views, However I believe they are right on the dot, that's why I insisted on continuing, however I will end here since i pretty much clarified my old post with the long ass previous one. Yes we need to see more.
I do feel you are mistaken in your assumption of "7 Warlords + Marines counter ALL 4 Yonkous".
The reason why there is a balance is because the Yonkou are not allied and as such unlikely to gang up on the World Government. What's my proof? The marines insisted on getting everybody possible just to go against Whitebeard. If they could counter all 4 Yonkous by having all 7 Warlords, they wouldn't have wasted time trying to convince Hancock to join, nor would they have been agitated by Jinbei's refusal just to fight 1 mere Yonkou.
I also understand you meant all 4 Yonkou as in just their main crews and not allies? But there's no reason to assume that. Surely, the government/marines know of these allies and include them in their calculations?
We need more proof from the Yonkou especially the Individual captain to see if my assumption is off.
Again i Repeat Their fear of Whitebeard is much greater than the other 3.
Why would they not gather Most of there capable Fighters when they know a war is gonna go down?
Actually WB Allies included, The people Luffy brought were Unexpected allies who should not be included.
WHY am I getting involved in this? I've been skimming so many posts in the hopes that these "discussions" will meet an end or something. Guess I'm just bored. Anyway, I'm gonna do my best to help better explain and pick apart certain opinions. And my apologies, AppleSauce, but my first target is you, simply because I can address a couple of your posts the easiest.
Very well, I shall interpret.
Page 1 fact: Stated by Zeff, Mihawk is more renown than any swordsman in the world.
Page 2 fact: Mihawk is titled as the "world's strongest swordsman".
Page 3 fact: Mihawk states he's waiting "at the top", reiterating his position of "world's strongest swordsman".
Page 4 facts: Mihawk and Shanks have fought in the past. Mihawk does not wish to duel with a one-armed man.
Page 5 fact: Mihawk and Shanks dueled in the past.Conclusions that can be drawn from these facts:
- Since it's been stated three times, okay, Mihawk is the "world's strongest swordsman". Though who knows where he stands as of now in the post-timeskip world.
- The duel(s) ended with both parties left alive, and no readily apparent scarring due to their clash(es).
Conclusions that cannot be drawn from only this information:
- Mihawk is as strong/stronger than Shanks because the latter fights with a sword and thus must be a swordsman, and since Mihawk is the "world's strongest" then he has to be better than Shanks. Has Shanks ever been introduced specifically as a swordsman, and as such, a contender for Mihawk's title? If not, then Mihawk's title has no bearing here. And if it did, it would only mean that Mihawk is in fact stronger than Shanks, not equal.
- Mihawk and Shanks fought evenly in their duel. All we know is that they clashed and both lived to tell the tale. You could say the same thing about Zoro and Tashigi, and I doubt you'll find anyone on this forum who believes that the pretty sergeant major is stronger than Mr. Bushido, or even on equal footing.
- Mihawk is equal to Shanks. You provide those pages, but it's never explicitly stated or shown that the two are equals. The duel was in the past and no details about it have been provided. (Whitebeard didn't even mention who won, or if they were evenly matched, just that he considered their duel to be recent news.) They have never fought at present, so you cannot compare their strengths there. They haven't even fought the same people, so you can't even make an extrapolation from that.
In short, you cannot state with conviction that they are equal in power. I'm not saying it's not possible, but you still haven't provided any real evidence to back it up. If you're reading something else into those pages, by all means, explain yourself instead of linking the image and saying, "If you can't figure it out, then I can't help you." Part of stating your case is actually identifying which facts back up your speculation. And from what I see, you've presented nothing to prove beyond a doubt that Mihawk is equal in power to Shanks. (Again, not saying it's not possible, it just can't be confirmed or refuted based on the information you've cited.)
Thanks I agree with this. However People saying Shanks is Stronger than Mihawk can't be proven for same reason you've listed.
Very nicely Organized and written out.
I have a hard time accepting your arguments when you contradict yourself within the same paragraph. Right here, you say you think the WG was capable of fighting and winning… but just two sentences later you add that it was not possible to do at that moment. So they could win… but they couldn't because it was impossible. I don't know what you're trying to argue here, but I wanted to point out that you're definitely not getting your point across, whatever it may be.
I'm not Contradicting myself If you reread the paragragh below. I'll try explain what i was saying more clearly after copy and paste.
Why did Sengoku end it when he mostly new he can win. To put it Simply. His a good Guy, When Doberman the Vice Admiral says we should hang Whitebeard and Ace's Head as trophies for the World to see to Shanks Request of Handling there bodies Sengoku accepts this request of Shank.Also Shanks Later on Says Sengoku respected Whitebeard.Sengoku also says "ONLY because its you Red Hair", Sengoku knows what type of Pirate he is.
From a Strategic and Human point of view Sengoku no longer wanted more Casulties. They got what they wanted. Akainu and others where just greedy for more.Mihawk/shichibukai's Agreements were to fight Whitebeard and not Shanks.More Power leaving their side.
Than There's Blackbeard who's Pretty much Causing Tsunami's and Earthquakes to Far away Islands/Destroying Marine Ford.
Moral on Both sides this times is Gone. Would the Marines have Beaten Shanks in this State. We don't know. Had Blackbeard said yes to Shanks offer to fight and focused on Shanks crew with his than the Marines could have taken advantage and won.
The Sitution was a no go from all sides as soon as Shanks should up. Pointless fighting as Shanks says it.
When Shanks Showed up do I think the WG was still capable of fighting and Winning. YES I DO.
I repeat this here so that you have a more clear understanding from my above paragraph.
BUT IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO AT THAT MOMENT.
Not Just due to the lack of Power but due to Chaos, Loss of Moral on both sides, Destrution, and Pointless fighting.
Pretty much Sengoku relized as well it was pointless to continue with all this Happening. Sengoku is no Akainu where he just chases his target to no end.
Sengoku is Strategist he would see great loss on both sides and in the world had the battle raged.NO ONE EXCEPT BLACKBEARD A FEW VICE ADMIRALS AND MAYBE ADMIRALS WERE SPIRITED ENOUGH TO FIGHT. Marines were dieing Pointlessly when they had already achieved there goal.
So to Fight on after all this was Impossible as soon Shanks showed up.
I'm not gonna get involved with the rest of the arguments, though. I originally had a couple of statements here to argue about power levels or the whole Yonkou/Shichibukai/Marines balance issue, but I realized that I really didn't have anything to say. There's so much speculation involved in what's really happening in the New World that I feel there's nothing really to discuss. I've seen points raised by both sides in this discussion, but I don't feel like taking the time to pick them apart since it'd be like trying to catch fish in a torn net. They were kind of amusing to read at first, and I had some thoughts about it all, but after awhile I lost interest in debating it. Maybe a response or something will rekindle my interest.
Agreed we need to see more and i'll wait and I'll hold off on this discussion until we see more.
Why would they not gather Most of there capable Fighters when they know a war is gonna go down?
Why would they focus on one or two potential dropouts like Hancock and Jinbe if an entire force could deal with ALL FOUR Yonkou like you suggest? Let me be clearer, just so we're on the same page.
According to your assumption: "7Warlords+Marines = 4Yonkou"
then surely you are suggesting "5Warlords+Marines > 1Yonkou"
But that's not the case because they wanted to have all 7 just to go against one Yonkou. Which contradicts your assumption that the Marines balance all 4 Yonkou simultaneously.
Actually WB Allies included, The people Luffy brought were Unexpected allies who should not be included.
What the hell are you on about? The Marines didn't know before the war that Luffy would show up with a couple of allies(and I never brought this up), but WB allies certainly were not 'unexpected'? Are you saying the marines assumed Whitebeard would show up at the war just with his crew when they know how much of an influence he has in the New World?
If I think the Marines are the Most powerful force in the World Where the Admirals are the Backbone and am basing my argument around "The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou" Than I don't see the Admirals falling Except to the Strongest Man in the World. DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND ME AGAIN… Please.
I've Said It before Counter does not mean to Defeat All 4 at Once or Even Take on All 4 To an Stalemate.
Nor am I implying that.
Well,the Admirals really arent the 'backbone' of the Marine organization.They're more like nukes.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Thanks I agree with this. However People saying Shanks is Stronger than Mihawk can't be proven for same reason you've listed.
Very nicely Organized and written out.
Cause a Yonkou is stronger then a Shichibukai
@Baou:
Cause a Yonkou is stronger then a Shichibukai
Don't assume all the Shichibukai are the same.
Basically, yes.
Caribou is the New World Buggy (or even worse, because Buggy is too proud to be DoFlamingo's bootlicker)
More Buggy is the new Warlord so Caribou is going to join his crew.
Did anyone else notice the scar under smoker's right eye?
Thanks I agree with this. However People saying Shanks is Stronger than Mihawk can't be proven for same reason you've listed.
Very nicely Organized and written out.
True. Shanks has only been involved in two clashes to date – a single crossing of blades with Whitebeard and blocking a single attack from Akainu – and neither really shows exactly how strong Shanks is. Thus, Mihawk and Shanks really can't be compared at all, and we have no indication as to which one is stronger. Undoubtedly, Shanks' entire organization/crew is probably stronger than Mihawk, a solitary pirate who seems to work alone. But who can say how a matchup between the two of them would end. And even that earlier assumption is still mere speculation based upon what one would believe to be true.
I'm not Contradicting myself If you reread the paragragh below. I'll try explain what i was saying more clearly after copy and paste.
Why did Sengoku end it when he mostly new he can win. To put it Simply. His a good Guy, When Doberman the Vice Admiral says we should hang Whitebeard and Ace's Head as trophies for the World to see to Shanks Request of Handling there bodies Sengoku accepts this request of Shank.Also Shanks Later on Says Sengoku respected Whitebeard.Sengoku also says "ONLY because its you Red Hair", Sengoku knows what type of Pirate he is.
From a Strategic and Human point of view Sengoku no longer wanted more Casulties. They got what they wanted. Akainu and others where just greedy for more.Mihawk/shichibukai's Agreements were to fight Whitebeard and not Shanks.More Power leaving their side.
Than There's Blackbeard who's Pretty much Causing Tsunami's and Earthquakes to Far away Islands/Destroying Marine Ford.
Moral on Both sides this times is Gone. Would the Marines have Beaten Shanks in this State. We don't know. Had Blackbeard said yes to Shanks offer to fight and focused on Shanks crew with his than the Marines could have taken advantage and won.
The Sitution was a no go from all sides as soon as Shanks should up. Pointless fighting as Shanks says it.
When Shanks Showed up do I think the WG was still capable of fighting and Winning. YES I DO.
I repeat this here so that you have a more clear understanding from my above paragraph.
BUT IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE TO DO AT THAT MOMENT.
Not Just due to the lack of Power but due to Chaos, Loss of Moral on both sides, Destrution, and Pointless fighting.
Pretty much Sengoku relized as well it was pointless to continue with all this Happening. Sengoku is no Akainu where he just chases his target to no end.
Sengoku is Strategist he would see great loss on both sides and in the world had the battle raged.NO ONE EXCEPT BLACKBEARD A FEW VICE ADMIRALS AND MAYBE ADMIRALS WERE SPIRITED ENOUGH TO FIGHT. Marines were dieing Pointlessly when they had already achieved there goal.
So to Fight on after all this was Impossible as soon Shanks showed up.
Your wording is still suspect. Saying that they could win but it was impossible even at that moment is a contradictory statement, by the very fact that something that is impossible cannot be done. I'd actually like to go on record and say that no one at this point would win. The Whitebeard pirates had already lost their captain and second division commander, so nothing they did at this point could ever bring them any sort of victory. The Marines allowed Whitebeard to reaffirm the existence of the One Piece, an act that would only increase piracy in the near future and make it even harder to maintain order and achieve dominance over pirates. Even if the Marines could kill every other pirate left at Marineford, which I highly doubt possible, ultimate damage had been done since they had killed the biggest shark but left the bloodiest possible mess in the waters attracting a whole swarm of smaller sharks. And I'd still say that the Marines couldn't actually defeat everyone there to "win", since while both Whitebeard's crew/allies and the Marines were tired from the battle, Shanks' crew looks ready to rock and roll.
On another note, since I'm at the point of Shanks showing up at the end of the war, there just has to be some sort of hierarchy among the Yonkou crews. They can't all be equally powerful. I mean, Shanks clashed with Kaidou just the day before, and he's already at Marineford looking none the worse for wear. How could Shanks and his organization be anything but stronger than Kaidou's if he could engage the other Yonkou in combat, stop him from advancing to interfere with Whitebeard, and then himself come to end the war without looking like he just fought a fellow emperor? Ergo, could it then not be possible that Big Mam, while being one of the Four Emperors, is still the weakest of the four? That her influence is merely strong enough to single her out apart from the other pirates in the New World alongside the other emperors? I'm not saying it has to be true, but the Yonkou simply cannot be equally as powerful as each other. It's an arbitrary equalizer, and reality is anything but equal. Likely, they each have a stronghold where assault by any other Yonkou or the Marines would be suicide. Or they're simply wandering battalions like Whitebeard where attacking them head-on is testament to suicide. (Twenty-three Navy ships can attest to this.)
Well, looks like I got drawn in anyway. Cheers, everyone. I'm going back to watching some football.
Heh, that'd be an amusing One Piece animated short, the Grand Line Super Bowl. Luffy would be a wide receiver and a defensive linesman. Zoro, Franky, and Jinbe would be linesmen, with Zoro likely the center. Sanji and Chopper would be tight ends and either a cornerback or a safety. Usopp would be a running back and another cornerback; or possibly the quarterback, with his accuracy. Brook would be a running back and another safety. Robin would be a wide receiver or the quarterback. Nami would be a kicker and punter, or possibly another running back. Vivi, Kiwi, Mozu, Nojiko, Keimi, and Kokoro (ack!) would be cheerleaders.
Could you-know-who be Buggy and Caribou one of the Impel Down escapees who joined Buggy after the war? The hatred of the Straw Hats fits and the faith in you-know-who does too. It might be a stretch, but something to think about I guess.
Couldn't be bothered reading through 30 pages of power levels bickering, but has this been suggested by anyone in this thread?
@cooldud_21:
Could you-know-who be Buggy and Caribou one of the Impel Down escapees who joined Buggy after the war? The hatred of the Straw Hats fits and the faith in you-know-who does too. It might be a stretch, but something to think about I guess.
Couldn't be bothered reading through 30 pages of power levels bickering, but has this been suggested by anyone in this thread?
What has been suggested several times is that Caribou would be the New World version of Buggy. ITs been suggested that You-know -who is a Yonkou or Doflomingo. But I've not seen anyone suggest that it's Buggy. Be a nice and a different theory. Nice in that it if its true then we get double the fail of them together
On a different note= Anyone else suddenly reminded of Harry Potter when reading the hyphenated term "you-know-who"? There's an idea of a OP xover…. Caribou meets with Wormtail and discussing their lord/ boss/contacts
Why would they focus on one or two potential dropouts like Hancock and Jinbe if an entire force could deal with ALL FOUR Yonkou like you suggest? Let me be clearer, just so we're on the same page.
According to your assumption: "7Warlords+Marines = 4Yonkou"
then surely you are suggesting "5Warlords+Marines > 1Yonkou"But that's not the case because they wanted to have all 7 just to go against one Yonkou. Which contradicts your assumption that the Marines balance all 4 Yonkou simultaneously.
Why not when the WG can use them like the Shichibukai are using them.Also they maybe need more Reliable and capable hands to deal with other matters, Such as places in the world which they need to protect from pirates or revolutionaries. The Shichibukai are better used for the task of War.
Your not the first to misunderstand my words, most of you guys are claiming this for me "7Warlords+Marines = 4Yonkou"(WHICH IS NOT TRUE) you aren't reading my post., "The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou" Counter does not mean to Defeat All 4 at Once or Even Take on All 4 To a Stalemate. Counter Can be Interpreted in many different ways than.
The WG would be Destroyed by the Yonkou if they ever unite.(IF we include Whitebeard as 1 of the 4 Yonkou in to this).
Also Your forgetting How much of a difference I am Suggesting their is between each Yonkou, Especially the Individuals the Captains.
Theirs a HUGE GAP Between Yonkou WB The Worlds Strongest Man than the Rest of them.
Whitebeard Alone with his second Title Makes that huge jump in Strength/power.
The Worlds Strongest Man Title Separates Whitebeard From the Rest of the Yonkou.
This whole discussion Started because people were using whitebeard as a Measuring stick for the Power of the rest of the Yonkou as INDIVIDUALS.
You cannot use Whitebeard to Gauge the power of the other Captains/Individuals the Yonkou Such as Shanks/Kaido/BM when they do not share the Title of the Strongest Man or Women in the World.They only share the Titles of Emperors.
**Whitebeard(the Individual) had no equal during the end of his life.**This alone is a HUGE GAP.
Some of you were saying if the marines were as am suggesting them to be than the Yonkou wouldn't Exist, However they can dwell in territories where the WG has NO AUTHORITY The New World. The New World pretty much Belongs to the Yonkou.
The Yonkou aren't the only threat to the WG, there is a more threatening force to the WG who is Dragon/Revolutionaries.
Than there are Thousands of Pirates Fodders and Hundreds of Worthy and capable and Threatening Pirates and a Handful of Serious contenders who may be capable of giveing a Yonkou a tough time and in the near future even take such a title.
The World government has to be capable of dealing with all of this.They have to be as powerful as I'm suggesting in order for them to stabilize the world from chaos.Also they cannot leave some of the post they have set up in the world or else Pirates or Revolutionaries will take advantage and take over.
The Marines cannot simply send their entire force or even half to deal with the 1 or 2 yonkou in the New World when they have so much to look after.
Perfect Example is Whitebeard. They brought him out instead of going in.
If they aren't at least as strong as this "The Shichibukai All 7 on the Marines Side + Marines To Counter All 4 Yonkou", than the WG wouldn't exist.
Also notice From the Statement that Jinbei made about Losing Aoikiji was a great lose,Not only him but Sengoku and Garp as well, "However to fill in that gap the Government gave the Marines unforseen Power. The Headquarters has become an even Stronger Army of Justice Under Akainu."
The WG Shouldnt be underestimated.
What the hell are you on about? The Marines didn't know before the war that Luffy would show up with a couple of allies(and I never brought this up), but WB allies certainly were not 'unexpected'? Are you saying the marines assumed Whitebeard would show up at the war just with his crew when they know how much of an influence he has in the New World?
Sorry if hadn't made it clear, I was Saying WB allies the 40 + captains he brought ARE part of his Influence the People Luffy brought are not.
Offcourse the Marines expected WB the YONKOU(His entire Influence) is coming.
True. Shanks has only been involved in two clashes to date – a single crossing of blades with Whitebeard and blocking a single attack from Akainu – and neither really shows exactly how strong Shanks is. Thus, Mihawk and Shanks really can't be compared at all, and we have no indication as to which one is stronger. Undoubtedly, Shanks' entire organization/crew is probably stronger than Mihawk, a solitary pirate who seems to work alone. But who can say how a matchup between the two of them would end. And even that earlier assumption is still mere speculation based upon what one would believe to be true.
Agreed, so I hope we can finally drop Shanks and Mihawk.
Your wording is still suspect. Saying that they could win but it was impossible even at that moment is a contradictory statement, by the very fact that something that is impossible cannot be done. I'd actually like to go on record and say that no one at this point would win. The Whitebeard pirates had already lost their captain and second division commander, so nothing they did at this point could ever bring them any sort of victory. The Marines allowed Whitebeard to reaffirm the existence of the One Piece, an act that would only increase piracy in the near future and make it even harder to maintain order and achieve dominance over pirates. Even if the Marines could kill every other pirate left at Marineford, which I highly doubt possible, ultimate damage had been done since they had killed the biggest shark but left the bloodiest possible mess in the waters attracting a whole swarm of smaller sharks. And I'd still say that the Marines couldn't actually defeat everyone there to "win", since while both Whitebeard's crew/allies and the Marines were tired from the battle, Shanks' crew looks ready to rock and roll.
I was trying to say had Blackbeard Accepted Shanks request to fight and the battle raged. The world government wouldnt be on the sides watching… atleast not for long until they could see that ethier Shanks is weakened and Blackbeard has fallen or that they simply have a 3 way battle royal...
I guess your right and its safe to say No one would win cause its a no go situation to start with.
I dont think they allowed it.... No one wanted to go near the guy or even attack him from range or he might have busted out another earthquake.
I agree with everything else you said afterwards.
I think it's more along the lines that they can always hit the physical body but people on Admirals level are so hardcore that they can essentially ignore huge injuries that can criple a normal man. Hell look at all the damage Zoro took with Daz Bones. Now imagine him after 20 years of training. So that's my theory on how Akainu could take Vista's and Marco's attack
I don't think so. As we have seen with water and sea stone Luffy's body remains rubber always. He can't revert back to human. I think it's more a case similar to logia where he can be more easily hurt by physical attacks
That and the Straw Hat crew has already fought jointly both against Moria(where they showed they are ridicuously coordinated. Seriously it's like they were reading each other mind) and a Pacifista so it won't be out of the norm
About Haki I'm starting to agree with the theory that it hardens the enemy pretty much like it hardens the user. Its logic and simple. Of course I would like some crazy plot line were devil fruits and Haki were interconected in deeper ways but I don't see Oda following that route.
We've seen Luffy getting hurt when Smoker attacks him with the Jute, so Kairoseki does bring him back to normal, while water does not.
And now that I reread my post I feel even more stupid for killing the english language with typos.
But yes, I love those battle that seem like they were rehersed a couple of times. Its pretty cool to see, specially because the weaker members are very effective in that kind of battle, and its not all about the monster trio.
The only thing stopping a 10 vs 1 is the other members of the Big Mom crew. But maybe she will take the bomb as a personal offense and decide she will deal with them personally. Well I don't know, but its definitly the best I can think off.
I'm also eager for the sea battle against smoker. If they meet in the sea it will be an awesome battle between Sunny-Go and marine ships. Gaoh Cannon should work wonders. And then Nami and Robin could finish with AoE, so they would get some fighting.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also Apple Sauce, Whitebeard admitted he could not be the strongest forever, so why do you believe he was the strongest untill he died? You're contradicting the manga with that statement.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
Also, the situation in the war is not a good one to calculate Shanks power, nor the Marine's power, as organizations.
Even if the marines could "win" as in killing Shanks and Black Beard, the aftermath would lead to total anarchy and a tremendous lost of influence. Many of the soldiers there were leaders of weaker bases, essential to keep peace in their villages, and a loss of a single one of those despite appearing insignificant did matter to the overall situation.
This because Marines are not pirates, they are the police. They can't be worriyed only about the 4 strongest crews, they have to keep control over all 5 seas.
They gave up and even so there was an huge increase in piracy, and many bases were in trouble until the marines sucessfully reorganized. Fighting 2 other Younkous (Black Beard must have had a power rivalling one by then) would at least double the casualties, and that would lead to a simple defeat of the World Government. Big Mom and Kaidou would be free to attack, as would Dragon and his army.
But in terms of managing to win, I think the marines had a slight chance of pulling it off as long as Garp went back into normal spirit. They had 3 admirals good to go and all. If it was a totally new battle and they had had time to reorganize they could win. But Akainu was already in the front lines, and I doubt he could resist an attack from 10 of shanks crew, potentially assisted by Marco. I think it would come down to how strong and willing to help were Doflamingo and Boa Hancock.
This in a totally rational point of view, as I'm sure, even tough I can't back it up with arguments, that Whitebeard would have won if it wasn't for the strategy imployed by the marines.
About the power of a single Yonkou, I think that even if they have differences between themselves, those matter not. They are all MONSTERS which no Rookie should defeat with mere 2 years of training. Luffy will need some New World experience before that. Defeating Big Mom in 3 days would be a joke to all other Yonkous. Like:
"You wimps, you could have just went there and kicked her ass, why didn't you… She was so week .-."
Just a quick note to the Shanks thing; after seeing this page here I'm sure as hell that the marines would've get their asses handed to them. It's of course only my personal estimate of the situation but still. A man like Shanks'd never openly challenge the remaining combatants without being sure that he'd win.
I was trying to say had Blackbeard Accepted Shanks request to fight and the battle raged. The world government wouldnt be on the sides watching… atleast not for long until they could see that ethier Shanks is weakened and Blackbeard has fallen or that they simply have a 3 way battle royal...
I guess your right and its safe to say No one would win cause its a no go situation to start with.I dont think they allowed it.... No one wanted to go near the guy or even attack him from range or he might have busted out another earthquake.
Well, of course, if Shanks and Blackbeard were gonna tear it up in Marineford, then the Marines definitely wouldn't just sit there and watch. Still, we're agreed that additional fighting would have been a pointless waste of life and energy.
But that's not the problem. It's the fact that they left Buggy to his own devices, with a working Den Den Mushi, that Whitebeard saying "One Piece definitely exists!" was broadcast to the folks watching at Sabaody, and from there became worldwide news. The Marines certainly had no problem detaining Buggy; Aokiji easily froze him and his entire lot just to cancel the broadcast. If he'd simply fished out the snail then, the WG would have avoided letting reporters and regular citizens view a live statement about One Piece's existence. Only the Marines and pirate crews already at Marineford would have heard Whitebeard's final words, and it wouldn't have made the same kind of stir at all. The Marines wouldn't have cared about the One Piece, and the pirates probably had already made up their minds about its existence. Letting the general populace know, however, would have brought out many new pirates, just like Gold Roger did 22 years ago.
And even if no one wanted to go near Whitebeard to silence him… that's still a decision to not intervene, and means they still allowed him to make the proclamation. Doesn't matter if any attackers would have been creamed by an earthquake, they still let him make that statement.
@gotta<3OP:
About Haki I'm starting to agree with the theory that it hardens the enemy pretty much like it hardens the user. Its logic and simple. Of course I would like some crazy plot line were devil fruits and Haki were interconected in deeper ways but I don't see Oda following that route.
We've seen Luffy getting hurt when Smoker attacks him with the Jute, so Kairoseki does bring him back to normal, while water does not.
The Jutte did not hurt luffy (no more than any other non haki pyhsical attack) but the seastone in the Jutte does take his energy away. Seastone DOES NOT bring him back to normal. The only thing capable of that is BB's DF.
@gotta<3OP:
Also Apple Sauce, Whitebeard admitted he could not be the strongest forever, so why do you believe he was the strongest untill he died? You're contradicting the manga with that statement.
Not a Contradiction.He was told to us By Oda himself that he was the strongest, simple as that.
Luffy, Blackbeard and few others will surpass him as the story progresses, Thats how i see Qoute everyone keeps bringing up that "Whitebead wont stay the Strongest forever".
@gotta<3OP:
Also, the situation in the war is not a good one to calculate Shanks power, nor the Marine's power, as organizations.
Even if the marines could "win" as in killing Shanks and Black Beard, the aftermath would lead to total anarchy and a tremendous lost of influence. Many of the soldiers there were leaders of weaker bases, essential to keep peace in their villages, and a loss of a single one of those despite appearing insignificant did matter to the overall situation.
This because Marines are not pirates, they are the police. They can't be worriyed only about the 4 strongest crews, they have to keep control over all 5 seas.
They gave up and even so there was an huge increase in piracy, and many bases were in trouble until the marines sucessfully reorganized. Fighting 2 other Younkous (Black Beard must have had a power rivalling one by then) would at least double the casualties, and that would lead to a simple defeat of the World Government. Big Mom and Kaidou would be free to attack, as would Dragon and his army.
But in terms of managing to win, I think the marines had a slight chance of pulling it off as long as Garp went back into normal spirit. They had 3 admirals good to go and all. If it was a totally new battle and they had had time to reorganize they could win.
My Point Exactly.
@gotta<3OP:
But Akainu was already in the front lines, and I doubt he could resist an attack from 10 of shanks crew, potentially assisted by Marco. I think it would come down to how strong and willing to help were Doflamingo and Boa Hancock.
Its better to stick with the fact that No one would fight as soon as Shanks showed because Marines had already Won and the reasons i posted and some you yourself added.
@gotta<3OP:
This in a totally rational point of view, as I'm sure, even tough I can't back it up with arguments, that Whitebeard would have won if it wasn't for the strategy imployed by the marines.
I guess we will never find out.
@gotta<3OP:
About the power of a single Yonkou, I think that even if they have differences between themselves, those matter not. They are all MONSTERS which no Rookie should defeat with mere 2 years of training. Luffy will need some New World experience before that. Defeating Big Mom in 3 days would be a joke to all other Yonkous. Like:
"You wimps, you could have just went there and kicked her ass, why didn't you… She was so week .-."
umm… I don't think anyone suggested that luffy would beat Big mom. However people were suggesting that Luffy would not have the slightest bit of chance against her 1 on 1 is something we don't know.
There was a misconception that its 1 Yonkou= Shichibukai + Marines however that's FAR from the Truth.
Also The misconception that Every Single Yonkou the Captains is at least around as strong as Whitebeard When he should not be used to determine the Individual power of yonkou cause he separates himself from them being the Strongest man in the world.
The Marines and All 7 Shichibukai on the WG side exist to Counter The 4 Yonkou at ONCE.
Just a quick note to the Shanks thing; after seeing this page here I'm sure as hell that the marines would've get their asses handed to them. It's of course only my personal estimate of the situation but still. A man like Shanks'd never openly challenge the remaining combatants without being sure that he'd win.
Sure could be a possibility if things turned out in shanks favor had the battle raged.However lets leave it at there would be no fighting to begin with for now…even if we think differently who the Victor would be.
Pretty much my goal was the Above paragraph(my reply to gotta) I've written, so I don't want to go any further than this.
@Enzeru Shanks could pretty well have gone there knowing that the marines would retreat as soon as they saw his pretty face. No need to be that smart to figure out that fighting Shanks wouldn't be a good strategy.
@AppleSauce
I personally see Crocodile flat out calling White Beard weak as a sign he is not the strongest anymore.
But I agree with you with everything but when you said "Admirals=Yonkou" or something of that kind. I don't quite agree with that specially because that would mean the marines had 5 'yonkou level' guys in their side. And it seems silly to get freaked out by the meeting of 2 Yonkou, when you have 5 characters as strong as them.
But obviously it is not 1 Yonkou=Marines + 7 Shichibukai.
Its suposed to be 1Yonkou= 1 Yonkou = 1 Yonkou = 1 Yonkou = Marines = 7 Shichibukai
Marines + Shichibukai + special forces= World Government.
World Government > 1 Yonkou > Rev Army (for the time being I'll admit the WG has more influence and power), and has the power to keep control over all 4 yonkous. Not counter them, as that would mean they could counter attack them, which is not totally true.
Thats so obvious its no use arguing, I think.
Lets just put it like this:
If the WG joined all the forces and attacked 2 Yonkous head on, the Yonkous would probably not stand a chance. But then half of the marine force would be dead, whole islands would be left umprotected, and Pirates would pille them. The Rev. Army would take the chance to gain territory and influence, The two other Yonkous would take the oportunity to gain even more territories, and it chaos would rulle.
Now that I talk about this, it will be fun if Big Mom goes down, wonder what would happen conserning politics and territories.
Eh, you're making assumptions about the Rev Army there, we still don't know the full extent of their capabilities.
@E7x:
Luffy got a 400kk bounty back when he was nothing compared to Pekoms. Becomes one shot a supernova without even using his full abilty, He still has a sword. Since he most likely doesn't have a crew or haev done anything to outrageous i'd say that his 330kk bounty is much more impressive than Luffy's or Jenbe's. Though bounties don't mean much in the new world.
I guess they mean their very purpose : indicating the level of "fear" from the World Gouvernement.
Eg. Pekoms leave Big Mum and go searching for the Ancient Weapons with a few friends, his level of threat towards the WG clearly increased, compared to being a nice lil' soldier of Big Mum.
You're thinking about the G8 base, the one with the fishing vice-admiral.
That's right, thank you!
Hmm didn't Mihawk want to know how close he was to Whitebeards level? Pretty sure Shanks fought Whitebeard without any hesitation and he came out of it without having his ass handed to him on a plate. So Shanks believed he was strong enough to fight Whitebeard but Mihawk was unsure of himself.
So either Shanks is stronger than Mihawk or Shanks is over confident and Mihawk is a coward. ( I know it doesn't work like this but my bullcrap logic is just as good as anyone elses. )
Mihawk hasn't challenged anyone of value in years, this is why he doesn't know his distance from Whitebeard.
Meanwhile Shanks kept getting stronger.
So yes, Mihawk is the strongest swordsman to Luffy and Zoro, but as he himself said to reach Pirate King you have to surpass even Mihawk.
With WB dead, Shanks is the closest to One Piece, he just doesn't want it.
There's also an unexplained element that Oda will reveal explaining why Mihawk is a bitch ass government Dog.
There's something more to his story, however either way, Shanks is not merely a swordsman.
He's the closest man to One Piece.
Is there a number on the number of Vice Admirals? (I was thinking 7) Also since their is only thinking 1 admiral at the moment who are the replacements. Do you think it will stay all logia or one of each devil fruit type?
Is there a number on the number of Vice Admirals? (I was thinking 7) Also since their is only thinking 1 admiral at the moment who are the replacements. Do you think it will stay all logia or one of each devil fruit type?
There are way,way,way more then just seven VA's.
@Baou:
There are way,way,way more then just seven VA's.
1 for each Strawhat then for the marine battle >.> But if there are way more can you send me a link a scene showing most of them
1 for each Strawhat then for the marine battle >.> But if there are way more can you send me a link a scene showing most of them
There are more than what have been named, several were shown in the war but were never named.
here's a list of known names http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Vice_Admirals#Vice_Admiral
this one shows profile pics for theknown marines and list name and rank under pic http://onepiece.wikia.com/wiki/Marines
Ohohohoho to whoever suggested that Lola being Big Mom's daughter will calm Big Mom's Wrath on Luffy. Well how about this, Big Mom doesn't really love Lola and is even more enraged that Lola would try to get in her way but Lola tries to survive by living off of her mother's name. I'm sure that if Lola happened to return to the NewWorld during Luffy's battle, Big Mom would say some things….do some things.. Luffy would get mad at how Lola is being treated since they are friends and then turn into an anime frenzy giving him more strength hmmm yeah
i am kinda inclined to agree with the guy who said that "Shanks is the one closest to one piece". I think Shanks is probably the top guy. Of course… this may not be true due to the presence of Blackbeard. Especially after 2 years, we don't know where the power levels lie.
But yeah, there is a reason why the emperors are the rulers of the new world and are the ones closest to one piece. Not because they are all admiral level. I am amazed at how many people keep comparing shanks to mihawk and consider him admiral level or below. Thats just messed up.
Mihawk hasn't challenged anyone of value in years, this is why he doesn't know his distance from Whitebeard.
Meanwhile Shanks kept getting stronger.
Hmm, I wonder if Mihawk's sort of despondent with his position as the strongest swordsman in the world. As in he too was like Zoro and set out to become the strongest swordsman in the world, but now that he's achieved it he's sort of lost purpose for himself while watching Shanks form a crew and basically enjoy himself in the New World. It would explain why he's a shichibukai (since it means the WG would leave him alone), why he was "bored" enough to sink all of Kreig's ships, and whey he's so interested in Zoro, particularly why he trained him during the timeskip. His whole purpose for living is to uphold the dignity of being the strongest swordsman in the world, and he sees in Zoro both a little bit of himself (Dedicated swordsman aiming for the top), but also a little bit of Shanks in that he's not only doing it for himself so he can hold the title, but has another purpose that lies beyond it.
Just a theory anyway.