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    • Smudger
      Smudger
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      Before I go into the obvious point of this thread I would like to thank all the staff, past and present over the years that have contributed so well towards making arlongpark the site it is today. From admins, mods, translators and everyone (including regular members) that take their time to make valuable contributions, thank you.

      Now I've been about for a while now from the early days as a mere lurker and beyond, and throughout that time I've seen a lot of suggestions that benefit the needs of the community. But what we really lack is an overall feedback from the members about the staff themselves, and ways in which we would like to thank or ask for small changes in the way they manage day to day running of the site. Be it a larger presence, more or less toleration and everything between.

      Saying this I don't want to see people coming in here being blunt and ruthless if they feel they have been preyed upon, or people demanding the staff slave/dedicate themselves to every single need. What i would like is for this thread to be a respectful place where we can openly and calmly express views on improving or merely thanking staff in regards to their role. After all we have a lot of staff that do masses of work for us that don't get a pat on the back or even have a chance to divulge the effort they have made towards keeping the cogs of this forum running so smoothly.

      Now on the outside everything seems calm, but in reality a lot of things happen in the background in the sub communities that paint a completely different picture of an overall view of this place, with some good and bad points that can't be expressed without fear of being targeted. This also means a lot of issues people have can't be dealt with via pm between the two as its not on display to justify a fair judgement call being made.

      Realistically we need an open place to voice these thoughts that can be seen by all to paint a clear picture of pros and cons currently held.

      I think a tiny example of this would have been the recent staff changes, that while being a delicate subject was necessary, which was impossible to discuss on a one to one basis via pm or randomly posting on an unsuitable thread.

      In short although this might be hard, it comes down to freedom of speech, something this forum needs. Or should I say a more democratic approach.
      (while being respectful of course)

      Sincerely Smudge.

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      • Kitsune Inferno
        Kitsune Inferno
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        Mad props, Smudge. In theory, this is an excellent thread with an excellent premise. Bringing issues and whatnot to the public's attention is great and helps establish voice within the forum. Sometimes, an idea that seems really bad in theory turns out great in practice. Having an open forum on the issue may bring a new perspective to the staff's attention that may not have crossed their minds before. Which is great.

        However, I know one mod said on one occasion that running a forum is not a democracy, and for all intents and purposes it isn't. We don't elect mods, we don't take a vote over site changes, etc. Everything is staff-driven and as members, we don't necessarily have rights, only privileges. We're not bound to the goings-on of the forum, so that is why our voice as a whole is diminished. We don't HAVE to be members, we just are.

        Even with that said, as a member, I can't help but agree. It's a great idea you've got, Smudge. I can see both sides of the coin, however. Even so, I'm really interested what others and staff have to say about it.

        [[Follow me on Twitch!]](http://twitch.tv/kitsuneinferno/)

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        • cactusmomma
          cactusmomma
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          Even though I'm only an IRC mod, I do agree with this idea. I hate having people stewing on something that's bothering them, such as someone bullying them or being a general ass. Sometimes person A sees something person B does not.. if they need to speak up, then let them do so. I know IRC is always open, as are our PM windows.. if no one responds, leave a message! We'll get on it!

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          • ChesCa
            ChesCa
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            This privilege is worth trying out, regardless of the results.

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            • Don Quichotte De Flamingo
              Don Quichotte De Flamingo
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              I dont know what purpose this should have. Sure some things could be handled more transparent for regular members but most decisions are made after the staff discussed about it. Some think its good, some have a problem with a decision but afterall thats the reason why we have a staff, so that not each little decision has to be discussed for days before finally something is done. It would be nice to have here a place where some decisions could be explained by the staff before every second member sends a PM to various mods to get something explained they may think was unfair or something like that.

              Unrevealed_Loki/Rocks/Im-san_

              IslandElbaf/Raftel/GodValley

              UnresolvedWeevil´s plan/Explaining DFs/Deal with Kuma-Bonney´s past/Joy-Boy/Zunisha´s story/Rocks flashback/Void Century/Rioponeglyph/Uranus/the D.clan

              DFWind/Metal/Acid/Liquid/Time-Stop

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              • Smudger
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                Well this is it you see, as you all have pointed out. Sometimes it could just something you think needs to be out in the open and discussed, as pm isn't a viable or good enough option. Such as bannings, infractions or possible distrust/friction between staff and members. Now an option that would be public as well is irc, but the downside is it is only viewed by a handful of people, their isn't a record that could be reviewed, and you would have to have a time arranged between the two parties to make it work which all in all makes a tense situation even more impossible.

                I think anything in regards to the examples i mentioned in the first post that needs to be discussed should have the option to be public, which will allow a fair and monitored system.

                Also on another note I'd just like to thank and congratulate all the newest staff we've had join the ap ranks the past few months. I have already shown my happiness for them at the time, but would like to extend that further after seeing such and excellent performance by all.

                Badass SnoCone 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • Badass SnoCone
                  Badass SnoCone @Smudger
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                  @Smudger:

                  Well this is it you see, as you all have pointed out. Sometimes it could just something you think needs to be out in the open and discussed, as pm isn't a viable or good enough option. Such as bannings, infractions or possible distrust/friction between staff and members.

                  Hmm…interesting idea.

                  Not exactly sure how this will turn out in the end. But it is certainly interesting.

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                  • Smudger
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                    You know it would also be nice to be able to find out which staff members monitor certain areas of the forum and if the need for another, or even less would be good. Take the creativity forum for an example, A place that most of the staff tend to avoid. (with the exception of Taboo and her awesome artwork)

                    This even more so after losing e1n, who took a lot of interest in that section.

                    Its one of the many things we can't ever truly discuss as a pm only falls down to one staff member which isn't the fairest route. Plus making threads for some of these issues is totally unnecessary, while some need more attention and a joint voice from the staff than found in the 'one liner questions thread'.

                    I just feel if one staff member makes a decision you think is unfair, the other staff won't get involved out of risking positions or causing some petty internal war that we all know won't happen. A joint perspective from a few people every now and then would put peoples problems, ideas and queries to rest far greater than the routes we have available so far.

                    Oh and while I'm here I do want to point out that it truly is awesome having staff members pop in and converse with the community on IRC. Not just to solve issues but to chat to on a one to one basis that reveals just how human and alike we all are. The best example I've seen is Terek, someone that's a real nice guy that has often been misunderstood, when in truth is a true gem.

                    Thanks for the feedback so far folks, much appreciated.

                    Kitsune Inferno 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                    • Kitsune Inferno
                      Kitsune Inferno @Smudger
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                      @Smudger:

                      You know it would also be nice to be able to find out which staff members monitor certain areas of the forum and if the need for another, or even less would be good. Take the creativity forum for an example, A place that most of the staff tend to avoid. (with the exception of Taboo and her awesome artwork)

                      This even more so after losing e1n, who took a lot of interest in that section.

                      Well the sub-mod jurisdiction is listed on the bottom of every forum. And the creativity (at least the Writing section) forum is also frequented by quite a few mods, like Crossword and Gekko, to be fair. But yeah, I get what you mean. Just pointing that out.

                      [[Follow me on Twitch!]](http://twitch.tv/kitsuneinferno/)

                      [[Concerto di Ali: The Battle of Solocima]](showthread.php?t=33896 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 33896") - [[Spirit Wolf]](showthread.php?t=33362 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 33362")

                      [[D.U.R.I.A.N.]](showthread.php?t=32416 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 32416") - [[Short and Sweet Writing]](showthread.php?t=30536 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 30536")

                      Smudger 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Smudger
                        Smudger @Kitsune Inferno
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                        @Kitsune:

                        Well the sub-mod jurisdiction is listed on the bottom of every forum. And the creativity (at least the Writing section) forum is also frequented by quite a few mods, like Crossword and Gekko, to be fair. But yeah, I get what you mean. Just pointing that out.

                        cough cosplay cough

                        Well that I know to some extent, but look at all the admins that work tirelessly in the background that don't get any praise and haven't had a chance to reveal to the masses just how hard they try to keep the thousands of people here happy.

                        I wonder how many people here actually know what Cinder, jonas and roboblue do here? They do a lot but only a handful know it.

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                        • Monkey King
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                          We need more democratic reforms or we'll have a revolution, 2011 should teach the tyrants of AP something.

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                          • I survived the buster call
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                            Smudge, the general section is always available for everyone to post in, and that is about the perfect way to let people know who you are and what you do a bit better. Not sure we need a thread for the staff to make themselves known to us–there's an entire forum for that.

                            Using this thread to discuss things of concern--I'm not sure I understand precisely what you are asking for here. Staff try hard to be discrete when making sensitive decisions--which is of course more respectful of the people involved and their right to some privacy and dignity. They aren't going to come here and discuss those decisions in front of the main forum--that would not only not be right for the aforementioned reasons, but it would be far too unwieldy and cumbersome when trying to come to decisions. Are you asking them to explain their reasoning after the fact? Are you asking for the general membership to have more of a voice in the most general sense? How would that work exactly, somehow using this thread? What sorts of things do you envision people posting or posting about?

                            Jazzy Jinx 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Jazzy Jinx
                              Jazzy Jinx @I survived the buster call
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                              @I:

                              Smudge, the general section is always available for everyone to post in, and that is about the perfect way to let people know who you are and what you do a bit better. Not sure we need a thread for the staff to make themselves known to us–there's an entire forum for that.

                              Using this thread to discuss things of concern--I'm not sure I understand precisely what you are asking for here. Staff try hard to be discrete when making sensitive decisions--which is of course more respectful of the people involved and their right to some privacy and dignity. They aren't going to come here and discuss those decisions in front of the main forum--that would not only not be right for the aforementioned reasons, but it would be far too unwieldy and cumbersome when trying to come to decisions. Are you asking them to explain their reasoning after the fact? Are you asking for the general membership to have more of a voice in the most general sense? How would that work exactly, somehow using this thread? What sorts of things do you envision people posting or posting about?

                              If I may add in my thoughts, I believe a major concern of this thread is simply that there's such a profound disconnect between the members and the staff. In essence, all we know is that the staff does things that change or alter stuff from time to time, and they're like this invisible presence doing said stuff without any tangible, human form.

                              Like, let me give an example. I don't even know what kind of people Satsuki or Takinawa or CCC (minus that one time he helped us) are even like. The exceptions being Gekko and eerie because I've talked to them more often. And all those people supposedly run our whole section. Now maybe it's hard to see it from our point of view because obviously you guys (the upper crust) get more opportunities to talk to each other but we (the common members) don't know shit.

                              All we know is that they're the invisible hands that moderate us and to call them up whenever we need invisible moderation to be done. You don't even get told who you were warned by or why. It's like the staff is a group of machines rather than a group of actual people, know what I mean?

                              Obviously I'm exaggerating, but at least half of the staff feels this way. The other half are naturally more social and it's not always fair to expect someone that's busy to constantly be socializing but the policies just create this disconnect that I feel shouldn't be there. So because that disconnect is there, it makes regular members more anxious and more objective because they're thinking that the forum is essentially run by them and not the invisible hand of the staff members.

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                              • Don Quichotte De Flamingo
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                                Well, i dont think its necessary that you have to know each staff member so that you feel kind of better. Afterall you always can talk to them in threads or via PM, but what does it bring you to know.."Hey, iam a 24year old guy loving OP and i live in Germany and i also moderate what you´re posting. Nice to meet you"…less being like a machine? Mhh, i can assure you theyre all decent people and when you want to talk to them...ehhm just do it and dont think "OMG, THEY ARE LIKE UNTOUCHABLE!!"

                                Unrevealed_Loki/Rocks/Im-san_

                                IslandElbaf/Raftel/GodValley

                                UnresolvedWeevil´s plan/Explaining DFs/Deal with Kuma-Bonney´s past/Joy-Boy/Zunisha´s story/Rocks flashback/Void Century/Rioponeglyph/Uranus/the D.clan

                                DFWind/Metal/Acid/Liquid/Time-Stop

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                                • Dryish
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                                  As a person who has been a moderator and who has discussed and thought about these particular things too many times elsewhere, I feel the need to post my opinion here. This issue is strongly controversial, and unless the staff states their "official" opinion it will sooner or later cause some quarrels - something I dislike. I don't have enough time to reason my own opinion well right now, so I'll return to it later, but I'll let you guys know I don't think this is a particularly good idea. If the kind of equality you talk about could be reached somehow, I'd be all for it and even trying to make it happen, but as long as there are people with different opinions and with unfriendly attitudes out there, it will never work.

                                  As sad as it is, forums really aren't democracies and the level of freedom of speech to which we're used to rarely makes things go smooth online. The situation is ideal if the staff doesn't have to tell the users why they've decided to act like they do, but the majority still understands the reasons behind the act. Believe it or not, it's good for the community. I feel a bit heartless saying this, but I've seen freedom lead to the destruction of a strong, thriving community I so loved before. It mustn't happen again. If we start condoning more from the normal users, all kinds of whiners will do more damage than the guys who'd use the chance to thank the mods can cause good. We need a strong authority who has all the power. They just have to use it wisely.

                                  And we already have the means to contact the staff if we so desire. Dropping a visitor message or sending a PM is a great way of communicating, and I'm sure that if the staff got more credit and sensible questions regarding their work that way, they'd be elated. We don't really have to make it public. If you have questions about the staff, just ask them.

                                  In Loving Memory of Toraish, Rex Avium: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40786 | 3DS Friend Code: 3196-4274-7836

                                  Jazzy Jinx 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Jazzy Jinx
                                    Jazzy Jinx @Dryish
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                                    @Don:

                                    Well, i dont think its necessary that you have to know each staff member so that you feel kind of better. Afterall you always can talk to them in threads or via PM, but what does it bring you to know.."Hey, iam a 24year old guy loving OP and i live in Germany and i also moderate what you´re posting. Nice to meet you"…less being like a machine? Mhh, i can assure you theyre all decent people and when you want to talk to them...ehhm just do it and dont think "OMG, THEY ARE LIKE UNTOUCHABLE!!"

                                    Yeah, because knowing that snippet is going to tell me exactly what kind of person they are. :getlost:

                                    And I'm guessing you missed the point of this thread because Smudge said several times already that sometimes, threads and PM's aren't enough. A lot of members don't do that stuff because they're either shy in general, intimidated, self-conscious, disgruntled or passive or whatever. What works for you or me doesn't work for everyone. And it's certainly not fair of you to come in fuming and being like, "Oh dur… Just tak to them!!!?!"

                                    Because if it was that easy or the disconnect wasn't so apparent, this thread wouldn't even exist. Consider also that we just want to have the right to know who to be proud of. I was honestly pissed off that I didn't know jonas was such a contributing person to this site. Like, that isn't something that should be hidden… we all have the right to know how much he helps our asses out.

                                    I'm sure he gets thanks in the shadows but a lot of people still think he doesn't do shit. Don't you find that the least bit fucked up?

                                    @Dryish:

                                    As a person who has been a moderator and who has discussed and thought about these particular things too many times elsewhere, I feel the need to post my opinion here. This issue is strongly controversial, and unless the staff states their "official" opinion it will sooner or later cause some quarrels - something I dislike. I don't have enough time to reason my own opinion well right now, so I'll return to it later, but I'll let you guys know I don't think this is a particularly good idea. If the kind of equality you talk about could be reached somehow, I'd be all for it and even trying to make it happen, but as long as there are people with different opinions and with unfriendly attitudes out there, it will never work.

                                    As sad as it is, forums really aren't democracies and the level of freedom of speech to which we're used to rarely makes things go smooth online. The situation is ideal if the staff doesn't have to tell the users why they've decided to act like they do, but the majority still understands the reasons behind the act. Believe it or not, it's good for the community. I feel a bit heartless saying this, but I've seen freedom lead to the destruction of a strong, thriving community I so loved before. It mustn't happen again. If we start condoning more from the normal users, all kinds of whiners will do more damage than the guys who'd use the chance to thank the mods can cause good. We need a strong authority who has all the power. They just have to use it wisely.

                                    And we already have the means to contact the staff if we so desire. Dropping a visitor message or sending a PM is a great way of communicating, and I'm sure that if the staff got more credit and sensible questions regarding their work that way, they'd be elated. We don't really have to make it public.

                                    Come at me.

                                    Throwing away that you were a moderator once because I think it's irrelevant (I was an administrator on a thriving community myself), I actually do agree with you that not everyone should be given a voice. This is why I picked the third option. Basically, my stance is that people should be allowed to give feedback so long as they've earned it. Because a lot of people are stupid and are whiners.

                                    But just because of that insignificant minority, I don't think the rest of the community should have to suffer for it. And I'm not exactly suggesting a democracy be put in place either but there are certain issues that I think the community has the right to input on. Namely, community-related social issues. I'm not suggesting we have a say in what they moderate, what they decide to change around here or take away or abolishing our right to… I don't know, bold letters or something. I don't care about all that technical stuff. Keep it to yourself. And in the case of extremely private matters... whatever, keep it to yourself too. That's shit that shouldn't be made public.

                                    But whenever a community-related social issue arises and half the staff isn't social outside of their own little circles, how then is it fair for them to come to a decision without hearing our side? Like we wouldn't even be throwing it to a vote, it's just input. That's perspective gathering. That's something I would hope you would want to have whenever you're moderating a community. And I've noticed that, right on time, Hiroy actually has an issue that he would like to address.

                                    But he hasn't been vocal about it nor have others because of fear or protecting positions or whatever. But even though he's talked about it in the shadows, I know what he's talking about. And I personally feel that yeah, this is a community-wide issue. The conduct of a lot of fucking members should be addressed here.

                                    Beyond humanizing the staff, whenever the staff comes down and addresses a widespread community issue like this directly… that's when I'll feel that we're a true community.

                                    Dryish taboo Don Quichotte De Flamingo 4 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                    • taboo
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                                      ![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart")![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart") ![](images/smilies/taboo/tabs.png "Ron Swanson")

                                      Dryish 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • Dryish
                                        Dryish @Jazzy Jinx
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                                        @Uncle:

                                        But just because of that insignificant minority, I don't think the rest of the community should have to suffer for it. And I'm not exactly suggesting a democracy be put in place either but there are certain issues that I think the community has the right to input on. Namely, community-related social issues. I'm not suggesting we have a say in what they moderate, what they decide to change around here or take away or abolishing our right to… I don't know, bold letters or something. I don't care about all that technical stuff. Keep it to yourself. And in the case of extremely private matters... whatever, keep it to yourself too. That's shit that shouldn't be made public.

                                        But whenever a community-related social issue arises and half the staff isn't social outside of their own little circles, how then is it fair for them to come to a decision without hearing our side? Like we wouldn't even be throwing it to a vote, it's just input. That's perspective gathering. That's something I would hope you would want to have whenever you're moderating a community. And I've noticed that, right on time, Hiroy actually has an issue that he would like to address.

                                        But he hasn't been vocal about it nor have others because of fear or protecting positions or whatever. But even though he's talked about it in the shadows, I know what he's talking about. And I personally feel that yeah, this is a community-wide issue. The conduct of a lot of fucking members should be addressed here.

                                        Beyond humanizing the staff, whenever the staff comes down and addresses a widespread community issue like this directly… that's when I'll feel that we're a true community.

                                        Yeah, I do agree with you here Kenny. What I'm against is giving the ordinary people here a way to treat the staff as their equals and question their decisions, because that would demolish the whole forum infrastructure in the long run. Even though some people might use it for good, it would change the atmosphere and people's attitude towards the staff, both of which I think are rather healthy as they are now. If we create a way for resilient idiots to spread their own views of how things are and how things should be handled, some will start doubting the staff's motives, and that'll breed unnecessary tension between the masses and the mods. If the members don't trust and respect the ones in charge, the community caves in. And that is what could happen if we created a place where moderators could interact with others and listen to their rambling.

                                        Giving input, however, doesn't have anything at all to do with this scenario I'm so much afraid of. Of course we, the members, should be allowed to enlighten the staff about what's going on if they are to make a decision on some social issue. After all, we're the ones who are here to spend quality time talking with people. If some of us spot problems that need to be brought to the attention of the staff, we're supposed to do so. Or that's at least what I think. Letting the staff know about our opinions is important, and I'm quite sure our input is much appreciated at the other end too. As far as I know, nobody has ever forbidden that. People just don't know how much they're allowed to say - something that has quite a lot to do with common sense. The rule of thumb here is that as long as it is constructive and thought out, and doesn't offend anybody, everything can be said.

                                        But what doesn't strike me as sensible is creating a place where we could give this input or share our information with the staff. We don't really need something like that. We have the means to contact them already. If somebody encounters something unpleasant, he or she is able to report it by using the report button or by messaging the staff. In a situation where action needs to be taken swiftly, we can always post and try to cool things down that way. Then there are cases like the one Hiroy's been talking about. I know nothing of it, sadly (it does interest me, but it's none of my business so I'll just shut up and pretend to lurk as always), but what I do know is that if Hiroy thinks something more visible should be done about this particular thing, he could always post a thread about it here and ask the staff to read it. That way, they would get the knowledge somebody wishes to convey to them, and people could publicly comment on the proposition as well. I've been wondering why people don't do this more often, as they clearly seem to have a myriad things to say every now and then. I don't see why that wasn't allowed.

                                        That said, this thread is a tad pointless in my opinion. We are allowed to give feedback if we want to, aren't we? Good of people to start talking about this, though.

                                        In Loving Memory of Toraish, Rex Avium: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40786 | 3DS Friend Code: 3196-4274-7836

                                        Jazzy Jinx 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • taboo
                                          taboo @Jazzy Jinx
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                                          All seriousness, I've always felt like my Gmodhood is more of a janitorial one than one of leadership or politics. I'm always open to people telling me what they want.

                                          ![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart")![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart") ![](images/smilies/taboo/tabs.png "Ron Swanson")

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                                          • Dryish
                                            Dryish @taboo
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                                            @taboo:

                                            http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XxI1hBl8el0/TRMKUScjj-I/AAAAAAAACEk/YC1I7VlVU9U/s1600/Come+at+me+bro.jpg

                                            And thus, everybody was too scared to continue talking. I'm running to the hills already.

                                            Also, taboo, you're too quick. Now this looks like totally uncanny spam. ;_;

                                            In Loving Memory of Toraish, Rex Avium: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40786 | 3DS Friend Code: 3196-4274-7836

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                                            • taboo
                                              taboo @Jazzy Jinx
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                                              Hiroy tell me who you want me to kill

                                              I'll do it for you man

                                              we tight

                                              lol@dryish

                                              ![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart")![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart") ![](images/smilies/taboo/tabs.png "Ron Swanson")

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                                              • Hiroy
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                                                If you asked me that a few months ago, I'll take up the offer quickly. But now? I don't really feel it's right to pester mods into giving into my demands. I'm sure they did the best they could at the time. Other than that, I'm not sure what to say. I don't have much problems with the staff. Well, atleast not anymore.

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                                                • Jazzy Jinx
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                                                  @Dryish:

                                                  But what doesn't strike me as sensible is creating a place where we could give this input or share our information with the staff. We don't really need something like that. We have the means to contact them already. If somebody encounters something unpleasant, he or she is able to report it by using the report button or by messaging the staff. In a situation where action needs to be taken swiftly, we can always post and try to cool things down that way. Then there are cases like the one Hiroy's been talking about. I know nothing of it, sadly (it does interest me, but it's none of my business so I'll just shut up and pretend to lurk as always), but what I do know is that if Hiroy thinks something more visible should be done about this particular thing, he could always post a thread about it here and ask the staff to read it. That way, they would get the knowledge somebody wishes to convey to them, and people could publicly comment on the proposition as well. I've been wondering why people don't do this more often, as they clearly seem to have a myriad things to say every now and then. I don't see why that wasn't allowed.

                                                  How do you say this…

                                                  That said, this thread is a tad pointless in my opinion. We are allowed to give feedback if we want to, aren't we? Good of people to start talking about this, though.

                                                  …and then say this?

                                                  You just pointed out the flaw in your own argument.


                                                  @Hiroy:

                                                  If you asked me that a few months ago, I'll take up the offer quickly. But now? I don't really feel it's right to pester mods into giving into my demands. I'm sure they did the best they could at the time. Other than that, I'm not sure what to say. I don't have much problems with the staff. Well, atleast not anymore.

                                                  Just wanted to give you the opportunity to speak if you felt you didn't have it before. If you're alright with it now then cool, that's fine. And truth be told, I'm cool with most of the staff myself. But the point was simply that… sometimes these issues do arise and it's nice to know we can discuss them.

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                                                  • freedom
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                                                    AP demands more Freedom!!!

                                                    WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!

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                                                    • Dryish
                                                      Dryish @Jazzy Jinx
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                                                      @Uncle:

                                                      How do you say this…

                                                      ...and then say this?

                                                      You just pointed out the flaw in your own argument.

                                                      Ah yeah, well, that's my mistake. I never actually checked the threads name and for some reason assumed the thread was solely for discussing Smudge's ideas. It never even crossed my mind that this too could be taken as feedback of sorts. Faulty thinking at the late hours. Sorry for that. 😛

                                                      By "it's good", I meant that it is good that people are now discussing the possibility of giving feedback, as it seems not all have known it is feasible or allowed. I always thought it was clear that we could do so. That's why the wondering.

                                                      @freedom:

                                                      AP demands more Freedom!!!

                                                      !

                                                      In Loving Memory of Toraish, Rex Avium: http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=40786 | 3DS Friend Code: 3196-4274-7836

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                                                      • freedom
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                                                        Thanks Dryish. Now everyone knows what they need to do to earn their freedom of speech :ninja:

                                                        WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!

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                                                        • Kitsune Inferno
                                                          Kitsune Inferno @freedom
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                                                          @freedom:

                                                          AP demands more Freedom!!!

                                                          This.

                                                          Anyway, so yeah, maybe I'm a little confused about the issue itself as a whole. Basically, it's a thread to discuss issues openly? And give staff feedback? But then it's more of a social issues thread? Sorry, I'm a little tangled up here.~

                                                          [[Follow me on Twitch!]](http://twitch.tv/kitsuneinferno/)

                                                          [[Concerto di Ali: The Battle of Solocima]](showthread.php?t=33896 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 33896") - [[Spirit Wolf]](showthread.php?t=33362 "Arlong Park Forums - Thread 33362")

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                                                          • Jazzy Jinx
                                                            Jazzy Jinx @Kitsune Inferno
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                                                            @Kitsune:

                                                            This.

                                                            Anyway, so yeah, maybe I'm a little confused about the issue itself as a whole. Basically, it's a thread to discuss issues openly? And give staff feedback? But then it's more of a social issues thread? Sorry, I'm a little tangled up here.~

                                                            All are applicable.

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                                                            • Smudger
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                                                              @I:

                                                              Smudge, the general section is always available for everyone to post in, and that is about the perfect way to let people know who you are and what you do a bit better. Not sure we need a thread for the staff to make themselves known to us–there's an entire forum for that.

                                                              I can understand that side of the coin but you forget the multitude of other points we might want to converse with staff in open view. So here's a few things off the top of my head (i'm tired so forgive me)

                                                              • to ask reasoning for actions staff have taken towards threads, members and even a lack of presence in the community.

                                                              • debating infractions given to yourself, or even to others which may be down to a vendetta or mere sensitivity on the subject with that particular staff member.

                                                              • also we've had several times where someone has asked for a thread on to get a 'NO', and the thread locked without any debate or feedback from us the people.

                                                              • a lot of the time i've had several people mention dislike for the ways certain staff undertake but can't say anything without the risk of being targeted.

                                                              • some issues are too big to have one member make a decision on. It would be nice to have a voice of a couple of people to know its the wisest route.

                                                              • suggesting changes in forum powers or even voting for a candidate to become part of the staff. (like we all felt with you long before it happened)

                                                              Using this thread to discuss things of concern–I'm not sure I understand precisely what you are asking for here. Staff try hard to be discrete when making sensitive decisions--which is of course more respectful of the people involved and their right to some privacy and dignity.

                                                              Again most of the big issues are between two people (staff/member) which can be unfair as the pm method doesn't mean the people making the decisions will ever have to justify and action if its deemed unfair.

                                                              Some issues are and should be on a one to one basis of course, but a fair deal shouldn't be private and me and a mass of others have voiced that on the park before. Either through pm's, post, fb or irc. This is most apparent when someone is bold enough to voice their concern, and have a hoard of people agreeing whole heartedly.

                                                              They aren't going to come here and discuss those decisions in front of the main forum–that would not only not be right for the aforementioned reasons, but it would be far too unwieldy and cumbersome when trying to come to decisions.

                                                              This sounds more like you think the staff are afraid of contradicting each other or having different opinions which might jeopardise their own position/relationship. It would explain why we haven't had anyone bold enough to vote yet, especially as I've seen a fair amount viewing the thread.

                                                              Are you asking them to explain their reasoning after the fact?

                                                              Only if the person that feels like injustice has happened would like it to be made public. This would also dissuade staff from making bold moves without taking the time to see it from both perspectives. Don't you think people with power should be held to account of mistakes? not with any punishment but maybe just giving the option to be the better man/woman to admit a fault.

                                                              This forum is not to dissimilar to governments and other powers. Democracy is the key to unifying the community as seen throughout the pages of history.

                                                              Are you asking for the general membership to have more of a voice in the most general sense? How would that work exactly, somehow using this thread? What sorts of things do you envision people posting or posting about?

                                                              Every single thing that can't be done via pm, that doesn't justify a thread or can't be put in the one liner questions thread which is a hell of a lot.

                                                              I know its a really tricky and unnerving idea for the staff but we could try it, and if it fails remove it. You never know it could best the best thing that ever happened to this place.

                                                              Any doubts about the public's thoughts should be answered by the current poll figures.

                                                              Side note: sorry iv'e got loads more but im trying to cook and type at the same time.

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                                                              • Jazzy Jinx
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                                                                I can't say I fully agree with Smudge so I'll just let Dryish take that. I think he voiced why those propositions aren't necessarily good in his posts.

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                                                                • Smudger
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                                                                  I'd like to point out that the nature of this thread is as I have covered to a small degree in several of my posts, but more so to have the approval from the staff and members if they think it will work and improve the community.

                                                                  If the answer is yes then we could lock this and have another thread, or rename this thread, or perhaps even make an entire new system up all together which will solve the confusion a few members here seem to have in regards to its purpose.

                                                                  Oh and thanks for the feedback from the staff so far. Its really cool to see how you see things. As i said earlier its about sharing our views and perspectives on all manor of things to achieve/accomplish a better community, or at least one that is more at peace with the goings on.

                                                                  Cheers

                                                                  Side note: if Freedom votes 'no' I say we change his name to oppression. Or just have an alt he can switch back and fourth to depending on his mood.

                                                                  It'll be good cop bad cop with one personality behind it all lol

                                                                  Also wanted to point out how my time conversing with staff on irc has given me a much better insight into the daily work you folks have to deal with which is really great as it offered me a better understanding of why half the stuff here actually happens. But as i've mentioned before irc is only visited by a minute amount of staff at random intervals, thus the necessity of having it in black and white for all to mull over. Its a shame most of the members here haven't had a chance to see the thoughts and inner workings of the folks that have to do the paperwork.

                                                                  reads dryish's post

                                                                  I'm going to enjoy picking the bones off this theory mwhahahah!

                                                                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                  ALSO CAN I POINT OUT THIS IS NOT SIMPLY ABOUT THE STAFF OF AP AS PEOPLE ARE FOCUSING TOWARDS. This branches out in to all corners of the forums goings on so don't think some jihad, revolution, war that is going to occur because its not.

                                                                  The ultimate aim of this is to do the opposite and open up better communication and understanding between us all.

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                                                                    • Urouge
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                                                                      A lot of us have been holding back from this thread because we were curious what you guys would come up with on your own, and I'm actually fairly impressed that there isn't more dumb. But in the end, a lot of this stuff simply isn't up for debate, such as bannings. No, we don't want to get a rundown of a person's popularity every time we're on the edge of banning someone. What a horrifying thought. Also many of us post a decent amount. If someone sits in a remote corner of the forum where they never see us, well, that's too bad. It'd be hypocritical of them to complain about us not posting there when they aren't exactly well traveled, themselves.

                                                                      If someone has something they want to say, there are ways to say it. PM's, visitor messages, posts, or even making a thread in this subforum. If the person is too shy for that, well, I don't see how that's anyone's problem but their own.

                                                                      In the end, I really don't get the point of this thread. It's been up for 2 days and nothing has come of it but debate about whether this thread should even exist or not.

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                                                                      • Robby
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                                                                        1. The staff communicates regularly with each other. So big or controversial decisions are discussed beforehand usually between several people.

                                                                        2. I'm sorry if after 4 years and 12941 posts in every section of this board, you feel you don't know me that well.

                                                                        3.The Naruto thread isn't going back to what it once was, for a number of reasons. Just isn't happening.

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                                                                        • Jazzy Jinx
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                                                                          I suppose I'll add in my opinion even though this thread seems to be heading towards its downward spiral. As an option 3, I do agree with the sentiment that we should be able to give feedback but I'm also of the opinion that not everyone's feedback is exactly… well, substantial. And I've also addressed before that yeah, it wouldn't be fair to expect the half of the staff that isn't as social as the other half to start posting or going out of their way when they might be busy or just plain uninterested in participating in discussions.

                                                                          It's just that, even in the cases of social staff members, I still feel like there's a disconnect there. And this is coming from someone who actually talks to quite a few staff members. Some people might see staff members posting and get the wrong idea of who they are. Like for instance, I know taboo probably gets misunderstood a lot. I know this because I read the "I was banned…" thread from like... a year back.

                                                                          Now, how to remedy this disconnect… to be quite frank, I don't have an answer for it. But it is what causes members to think, "Oh, how should I bring this issue up? Who should I bring it to? How should I speak? Formally or informally? What if they chew me out?" etc. etc. What if I fucked up once? What if that means my voice doesn't matter anymore? People fuck up and people have issues. It's been pointed out before, a lot of members obviously have a lot of things they'd want to address but have just been silent about. If nothing else, I think it's a good way to gather perspective.

                                                                          Personally, I'm not suggesting a democracy, just a place to drop input. So I think I'm suggesting a thread like this… only with a different angle. And as an option 3, if someone says some atrociously stupid shit, boot them out of the thread until such a time that they could be seen allowed to talk again. When you showcase that the staff is willing to listen, the members react thusly. Yeah, we're told that we can talk to you guys... but how many people truly feel that way?

                                                                          You can say, "Oh, well that's their problem for not speaking up" but is that a truly fair alternative? That's condoning some kind of "only the strong survive" mentality that frankly, I don't agree with. But ultimately, you know, it's up to the staff. I think it would be an interesting way to see if the community is able to better come together and understand one another but maybe the ideas are just too vast and different for something like this to work.

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                                                                          • Smudger
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                                                                            @Urouge:

                                                                            A lot of us have been holding back from this thread because we were curious what you guys would come up with on your own, and I'm actually fairly impressed that there isn't more dumb.

                                                                            I thought one of the older admins would have made this comment tbh. Oh boy did you miss the horror of pre 2008 posters….shudders

                                                                            The thing is we have weeded out the majority of fungus here quite well over the past few years leaving a decent proportion of good/down to earth people. Its probably the manga section that has left you a little scarred. Tis a place of evil nowadays.

                                                                            But in the end, a lot of this stuff simply isn't up for debate, such as bannings.

                                                                            But what about some one the infractions themselves? it seems the current trend is all points tend to have no expiry date regardless of how minor they were. Realistically a year should be the limit, unless of course its horrendous which usually just goes straight to ban. Plus you have to keep in mind most people come back with a clean slate anyway so there isn't as much of an incentive to be good again. Think of it like your driving license…..if you've been bad and you are on your last warning you will make an extra effort to behave in the hope you can get those expiration dates off and start fresh, or at least learn a lesson and not want to go through the tedious task of treading on eggshells so much.

                                                                            No, we don't want to get a rundown of a person's popularity every time we're on the edge of banning someone.

                                                                            Well that's just the gossip side of it which i don't think is relevant to the thread, merely if the action taken was justifiable, or possibly based on a war between two people which should be dealt with through talks and not a simple hammer. Most issues we have had between people can be solved this way but never gets the chance as pm isn't the best course of action. Having a jury in the background will encourage ego's to go and negotiations and understanding to take place.

                                                                            What a horrifying thought. Also many of us post a decent amount.

                                                                            I'd say half, and that is only due to the new staff members that are amongst the ranks. Truth is most of the old standing admins/mods have got work and family and don't have time to sift through the extreme volume of text. Hence why we have had several admins leave in the past.

                                                                            If someone sits in a remote corner of the forum where they never see us, well, that's too bad.

                                                                            Staff shouldn't confine themselves to one spot either though. its something that definitely needs to be improved upon. Its just a little sad to feel so out of touch with many of the old members that were once like me but have made positions here and stopped taking an interest or revealing just how human they are.

                                                                            It'd be hypocritical of them to complain about us not posting there when they aren't exactly well traveled, themselves.

                                                                            True enough but most of us visit all sections of the forum. Some just don't post in the sections as they feel either out of their depth or have nothing new to add to the table. I'm like that in the gaming section….frequent it a lot but rarely get a chance to add something or beat people to news and updates.

                                                                            If someone has something they want to say, there are ways to say it. PM's, visitor messages, posts, or even making a thread in this subforum. If the person is too shy for that, well, I don't see how that's anyone's problem but their own.

                                                                            So if i had an issue with you i couldn't resolve how would we resolve that. Putting on your wall isn't really the route as its more a social feature, a thread might inflame the situation, and a pm wouldn't be open to let people see if a fair course of action is taken.

                                                                            In the end, I really don't get the point of this thread. It's been up for 2 days and nothing has come of it but debate about whether this thread should even exist or not.

                                                                            The landslide poll outcome should give away that a good deal of people feel its necessary.

                                                                            I think your just worried about a grand conflict spawning when the posts here so far should prove the majority of us are mature enough to discuss the important issues that arise on a daily basis.

                                                                            @RobbyBevard:

                                                                            1. The staff communicates regularly with each other. So big or controversial decisions are discussed beforehand usually between several people.

                                                                            If they are so big why not share your joint feelings with the forum then as more often than not those decisions can be misunderstood by a great deal of people.

                                                                            2. I'm sorry if after 4 years and 12941 posts in every section of this board, you feel you don't know me that well.

                                                                            Funnily enough we don't. Its usually banter with no exposure into anything outside the forum. I'd love to see you on irc or something every now and then for a chat and get to know you a little more as more often then not as you know we've clashed over misunderstandings or trivial stuff in the na…n..naru coughs out blood the glossy black thing. lol It got ridiculous for a while and only really found a common ground through pm's which works but is hard to fully elaborate of explain what you mean without misunderstanding and paranoia setting in.

                                                                            3.The Naruto thread isn't going back to what it once was, for a number of reasons. Just isn't happening.

                                                                            And nobody minds it as you've given your reasons why. You'd be amazed at how much we mere members feel in the dark about this kinda stuff due to the staff not thinking it warranted/needed to be put in black and white.

                                                                            I don't want to mention names of a few staff i originally had issues with over the years, but after speaking to them through pm, fb, ap and irc I've sussed out the personalities a bit better and recognised original fears i had were untrue. Me for example, i'm often mistaken for stuff when i only mean it as banter or just dry humour, though I think or hope people would agree i've made significant changes thanks to feedback and conversations i've had with people in the places i mentioned above.

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                                                                            • Don Quichotte De Flamingo
                                                                              Don Quichotte De Flamingo @Jazzy Jinx
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                                                                              @Uncle:

                                                                              Yeah, because knowing that snippet is going to tell me exactly what kind of person they are. :getlost:

                                                                              I dont think a manga forum is the appropiate place to get to know a person for real. Also why do you have to know THAT much about them?…theyre mods and not people you have to know everything about. I don`t see mods posting here in an open for everyone thread much about their private life.

                                                                              A lot of members don't do that stuff because they're either shy in general, intimidated, self-conscious, disgruntled or passive or whatever. What works for you or me doesn't work for everyone. And it's certainly not fair of you to come in fuming and being like, "Oh dur… Just tak to them!!!?!"

                                                                              Well, without talking to them i don`t think you get to know anybody here. When some are to shy to post on a i-net forum then iam sorry for them, but thats not a reason why everyone else has to post here private stuff so that everyone who never posts in here gets to know those people.

                                                                              Consider also that we just want to have the right to know who to be proud of.

                                                                              Thats why you can view them on the forum leader site..that automatically shows that they work here for you guys..everything beyond that you want to know could be easily asked via PM and who doesnt do that,i think doesnt rly want to know more. Also you dont have the right to know anything about them just because theyre mods here..thats their own decision who theyre telling stuff and who doesnt get to know more.

                                                                              Unrevealed_Loki/Rocks/Im-san_

                                                                              IslandElbaf/Raftel/GodValley

                                                                              UnresolvedWeevil´s plan/Explaining DFs/Deal with Kuma-Bonney´s past/Joy-Boy/Zunisha´s story/Rocks flashback/Void Century/Rioponeglyph/Uranus/the D.clan

                                                                              DFWind/Metal/Acid/Liquid/Time-Stop

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                                                                              • Robby
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                                                                                @Smudger:

                                                                                If they are so big why not share your joint feelings with the forum then as more often than not those decisions can be misunderstood by a great deal of people.

                                                                                Because discussing stuff like "Should this thread be closed" or "should I ban this spambot" is pointless. Things like "Hey, this member is consistently acting up" or "this group of people wants a new subsection for X" gets discussed plenty.

                                                                                And infractions are permanent because that's the default setting for them and they don't get handed out that often and we're pretty lenient about them. If someone gets one, having the reminder down the line is helpful. If its from a year or two years prior, thats taken into consideration. We don't even automatically ban someone after three strikes or anything. But generally if someone is acting up enough to get infractions in the first place, especially two or three in short order, well, they need the slap on the wrist and we need the note that lets us know they've been given warnings before. They don't impede anything you can do on the forum and I think they're even invisible to everyone but the user and the mods, so… not a big deal?

                                                                                Funnily enough we don't. Its usually banter with no exposure into anything outside the forum.

                                                                                I work in comics and I post here. There really isn't much else. I have no life. Comics eats it. I work 15 hours a day most of the time, then sleep. The threads I post in should reveal my interests and what I do in my free time pretty well? If I'm in the Disney thread and talking about the first time I saw Goofy Movie 14 years ago and why its my favorite, then… isn't that insight? If I make a thread about the Muppets and set it up as a romantic comedy thread to help carry the joke of the trailer, and say "I love romantic comedies" isn't that an insight? If I'm excited about Okamiden or Pokemon and talk about it for months and give status updates as I make my way through the game? If I mess with the thread title of the Naruto thread, thats my personality and what amuses me.

                                                                                I'm not about to start blogging "Fed the cat. Went to work. Sat in front of the computer. For lunch today I had a hotdog. Went home, had supper. Played the video game I've been talking about in the thread about that video game for the last two months. Watched a movie that I've been talking about all week."

                                                                                I really don't understand what it is you want.

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                                                                                • Jazzy Jinx
                                                                                  Jazzy Jinx @Don Quichotte De Flamingo
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                                                                                  @Don:

                                                                                  I dont think a manga forum is the appropiate place to get to know a person for real. Also why do you have to know them THAT much about them…theyre mods and not people you have to know everything about. I don`t see mods posting here in an open for everyone thread much about their private life.

                                                                                  It's not about getting to know their social life. I don't see how you didn't get this the first time I responded to you. What I wanted to know is simply how they've contributed and whether or not I can approach them. Having a thread for feedback would solve this in a heartbeat because it's group mentality over individual mentality. In that instance, you wouldn't need to be familiar with a mod, you could just simply post about it and potentially learn more about them without the need of asking them directly.

                                                                                  Like Gekko for instance, he's a cool guy but he's usually busy. I know this so I leave him alone. Do you know this? Does everyone else know this? He's approachable, sure. But I wouldn't want to bother him to help me with something when I know the dude is busy. So who else can I approach? That kind of shit.

                                                                                  And even though it has nothing to do with my actual point, "a manga forum isn't a good place to get to know someone for real". Seriously? You're going to play that card? You're going to shit all over anyone who's ever made an online friend before? Or that it's a kind of friendship that's less or inferior because we're not holding hands and skipping through the meadows?

                                                                                  Smudge and Nami are going out. Is their relationship less or fake? Mind you that, once again, this has nothing to do with my actual point, but it is a mentality that I can't stand seeing.

                                                                                  Well, without talking to them i dont think you get to know anybody here. When some are to shy to post on a i-net forum then iam sorry for them, but thats not a reason why everyone else has to post here private stuff so that everyone who never posts in here gets to know those people just because theyre mods.

                                                                                  They don't need to post anything private. They just get our feedback and choose to comment if they want to.

                                                                                  Thats why you can view them on the forum leader site..that automatically shows that they work here for you guys..everything beyond that you want to know could be easily asked via PM and who doesnt do that,i think doesnt rly want to know more.

                                                                                  I don't know what half the people on that list do.

                                                                                  Robby Don Quichotte De Flamingo 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                                  • Robby
                                                                                    Robby @Jazzy Jinx
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                                                                                    We do this in our free time, its not a full time job. We just had a large staff shake up for people that don't have as much time to dedicate here anymore, and promotions of a couple people that do.

                                                                                    You can report stuff. It goes to all mods and admins. Whoever is available and sees it first, deals with it, you don't have to approach a specific person. That simple.

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                                                                                    • Jazzy Jinx
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                                                                                      @RobbyBevard:

                                                                                      We do this in our free time, its not a full time job. We just had a large staff shake up for people that don't have as much time to dedicate here anymore, and promotions of a couple people that do.

                                                                                      You can report stuff. It goes to all mods and admins. Whoever is available and sees it first, deals with it, you don't have to approach a specific person. That simple.

                                                                                      But then… the disconnect remains. =P

                                                                                      I don't know, maybe I'm the only bugged by it. Truth be told, it isn't a big deal and I'm not expecting the staff to come out with their life stories or anything like that. I just figure that some issues are more general sometimes and not necessarily capable of being resolved by one staff member. It's true that the threads you mentioned get discussed here but without a general feedback thread, it almost feels like a lot of things go by without a word.

                                                                                      And this kind of thread is going to pop up again. It always does. It's not even that I'm condoning heavy staff criticism or something, I'm more of the opinion that it should just be an input thread, not a critical thread. You could make the argument that this entire sub-forum serves that purpose but then, how many people have the nerves to actually make a thread? Know what I mean?

                                                                                      But eh… at most I just wanted to throw the idea out there. If the staff feels they don't want to do this then no one is in a position to demand otherwise. Certainly not myself of all people.

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                                                                                      • Don Quichotte De Flamingo
                                                                                        Don Quichotte De Flamingo @Jazzy Jinx
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                                                                                        @Uncle:

                                                                                        I don't give a crap about their social life. I don't see how you didn't get this the first time I responded to you. What I wanted to know is simply how they've contributed and whether or not I can approach them.

                                                                                        I thought you would be talking about the people behind all that and not about their doing in here. I dont see why you need an updated thread who exactly now fixed this or that problem(because their rang in here actually tells you who handles what)because the whole stuff is working on the problems..sure some more and some less, but i dont think it`s rly that important who did what now.

                                                                                        But I wouldn't want to bother him to help me with something when I know the dude is busy. So who else can I approach? That kind of shit.

                                                                                        When somebody is busy he will tell you and you have a lot of other people to chose from..its not that hard and they wont hate you because you asked. Also by accepting to be a mod they kind of knew that they will get a lot of requests and so you arent rly bothering them.(as long as you dont PMing them all the time for useless stuff)

                                                                                        And even though it has nothing to do with my actual point, "a manga forum isn't a good place to get to know someone for real". Seriously? You're going to play that card? You're going to shit all over anyone who's ever made an online friend before?

                                                                                        Ehhm no i don`t. I just think that many get to know each other here and start to talk more on more private places(then for real, while on the forum they may share interests). The forum itself is in my eyes less used for such "real talk" i mentioned.(PMing may be excluded) (or i would be at least astonished when some people talk here all the time about private stuff in open threads instead of doing that between each other somewhere else)

                                                                                        Unrevealed_Loki/Rocks/Im-san_

                                                                                        IslandElbaf/Raftel/GodValley

                                                                                        UnresolvedWeevil´s plan/Explaining DFs/Deal with Kuma-Bonney´s past/Joy-Boy/Zunisha´s story/Rocks flashback/Void Century/Rioponeglyph/Uranus/the D.clan

                                                                                        DFWind/Metal/Acid/Liquid/Time-Stop

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                                                                                        • Vanessa
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                                                                                          Two big problems I see here:

                                                                                          1: The basis you're working off of are assumptions that are dead wrong, and that it somehow leads into wanting explanations for decisions that we have to make.

                                                                                          2: These are superficial reasons at best, and are very disproportionate to the types of things you'd want.

                                                                                          • For the first point, one of you mention that apparently we make decisions on our whims when common sense should tell you that isn't the case. We don't have to give an explanation when someone screws up and is dealt with since just because you weren't logged on or whatever when that member got themselves in trouble doesn't mean it magically didn't happen and they were "unfairly" taken care of. Whether a staff member does or not is personally up to them, as you've all seen with robby or buster call who pretty much always explain why they took action or with me in which I rarely if ever bother to unless explicitly asked.

                                                                                          You guys want a chance to say if you think there's a problem. Thing is we already have that, as others have said you guys have a bunch of different ways to voice a problem or want an idea to be looked at. For the former you all can report, send PMs and everything else Urouge mentioned. You guys may say it's a two way street, but it really isn't since if you guys think there is a problem, if it's something you all think we haven't drawn attention to then just post it. This dumb crap about being intimidated or shy or whatever is ridiculous; if you won't even do something as simple as type up some wrods and hit the reply button due to petty things like the aforementioned then for all we know there isn't any kind of concern. And the latter, you're pretty much being redundant at this point when you've made a topic in the suggestion subforum on if we should have a thread for suggestions. Stop being all roundabout and say what you think the problem is without hollow praises placed at the end. Voice your viewpoint and step up; being all passive aggressive and coy about whatever your opinion is won't lead to anything.

                                                                                          "Yeah there was a problem that insert name here won't say nor will I go into detail about it myself"

                                                                                          This is the kind of things you all have been saying, this isn't he said she said bullshit so unless you all are willing to mention everything and name names, even if it's over PMs so OMG MAH FRIENDZ WONT KNOW IT WAS ME, then headway won't be made. Otherwise you're wasting your time and ours.

                                                                                          • Second of all, whether members who make up the staff are "social" or not is irrelevant and one of the dumbest things to have any kind of concern over. It has no bearing over when dealing with choices we have to make when problems arise. Fact of the matter is: some of us want to be private and don't want to talk about ourselves. Me personally, I'm private as hell: barely post, and even less about any kind of personal stuff unrelated to One Piece. If that's honestly something you see as a factor that gets in the way of doing things then you're wrong. Which goes back to the first point anyway since you guys claim to want "understanding" yet there has always been multiple methods of voicing your opinions which we mention any time someone has had a problem with reaching us.

                                                                                          Hell, the one who made this thread was wanting to split up posters in the manga section on some kind of ridiculous "elite section" in a former suggestion made in this section where if they don't "prove themselves" shouldn't be allowed to post, this is a public forum for God's sake. This one among others lead me to the viewpoint of not giving you guys a say on our decision making.

                                                                                          If you members have a problem with something, fine, bring it up and us staff will look into things and discuss it between ourselves. That's not anything new considering we do all that anyway, but letting you guys factor into everything decision we make? No.

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                                                                                          • Robby
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                                                                                            @Uncle:

                                                                                            how many people have the nerves to actually make a thread? Know what I mean?

                                                                                            No one is stopping anyone from communicating with anyone else?

                                                                                            You have to interact to be interacted with. If you want to get to know someone better… then take the initiative and talk to them! Share your interests, make a thread about something your interested in, report someone if they're bothering you. We aren't mind readers. If people don't speak up and express an opinion, whatever the topic, (and especially with problems with other posters) then like Urouge said, it's hypocritical to complain about us not responding when they aren't posting themselves.

                                                                                            You guys are arguing for theoretical shy people who can't speak for themselves? Or the lurkers who never post? Or are you arguing opinions that you personally have while hiding behind the facade of "other people" ? I... really don't understand what the complaint is.

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                                                                                            • freedom
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                                                                                              This makes me wonder. For the people that want to get to know the staff, do you also try to get to know the people who work at your electric company? Or the people at the Cable company. Or do you just call the service number when something is wrong, and you want this service fixed as quickly as possible so you can resume using said service.

                                                                                              I'm not saying that the staff don't want to get to know other members of the forums. I'm just saying, there's no reason to make a point of it. If a member and a person on staff happen to post in the same thread, or have a conversation on IRC, then this is just a natural part of crossing paths with someone. Liked you'd do if you met someone in a coffee shop, library, or event.

                                                                                              WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!

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                                                                                              • Jazzy Jinx
                                                                                                Jazzy Jinx @Robby
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                                                                                                @RobbyBevard:

                                                                                                No one is stopping anyone from communicating with anyone else?

                                                                                                You have to interact to be interacted with. If you want to get to know someone better… then take the initiative and talk to them! Share your interests, make a thread about something your interested in, report someone if they're bothering you. If people don't speak up and express an opinion, whatever the topic, then like Urouge said, it's hypocritical to complain about us not responding when they aren't posting themselves.

                                                                                                I... really don't understand what the complaint is. You guys are arguing for theoretical shy people who can't speak for themselves? Or the lurkers who never post?

                                                                                                I have my own opinions on the subject different from Smudge's opinions. But namely yeah, the ignorance. At its most core level, it's just about how approachable each staff member is. And it's not necessarily true of shy people or lurkers, it could just as well be in my case. Like if I get chewed out right now (which the chances of that are pretty high), I'm kinda stuck in a fucked up spot. There just seems to be a general disconnect between the two groups.

                                                                                                Like I'm just curious how much the two groups even truly understand about one another. I wasn't suggesting you know, posting every decision or having us involved in everything but just having a thread around where we can throw in our opinion. That's it. It isn't even a group decision, it's just input. With that, you naturally learn more about what the community on a whole thinks and we naturally learn more about the staff (in whoever decides to comment).

                                                                                                But honestly, I think this thread has gotten too aggressive in its back-and-forth. Truth be told, on either side, it's not that big an issue. At this point, I'm fine with dropping it. It was just something I've noticed that I wanted to pass on. Didn't mean to point fingers or anything if it seemed that way.

                                                                                                @freedom: Well then there, I was simply ignorant about how the staff views their positions. I thought the stance was different and I'm obviously wrong.

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                                                                                                • Robby
                                                                                                  Robby @Jazzy Jinx
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                                                                                                  @Uncle:

                                                                                                  Like I'm just curious how much the two groups even truly understand about one another.

                                                                                                  Uhm… I was a regular member for three years before I became a mod? And I still post the same amount as I did before? I talk to anyone that talks to me?

                                                                                                  You're imagining divisions and barriers that aren't there.

                                                                                                  Staff job is mostly janitorial duty for cleaning up spam and trolls, its something we do to help keep this forum, which we enjoy, running smoothly. I accepted the job mostly so I could retitle the Naruto threads at whim. It's... not whatever you guys seem to think it is.

                                                                                                  Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to have caviar with the Queen of England.

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                                                                                                  • Jazzy Jinx
                                                                                                    Jazzy Jinx @Robby
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                                                                                                    @RobbyBevard:

                                                                                                    Uhm… I was a regular member for three years before I became a mod? And I still post the same amount as I did before? I talk to anyone that talks to me?

                                                                                                    You're imagining divisions and barriers that aren't there.

                                                                                                    Which is the issue. A lot of regular members fall into this mentality. That's literally, the only point that I even have. But I think freedom said it best, I honestly had no clue how the staff viewed their positions. So then now I won't make the same mistake twice. =P

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                                                                                                    • Silence
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                                                                                                      A few things, though others have mostly all said what needs saying.

                                                                                                      It isn't really necessary for the mods to have more transparency, imo. A lot of them say what they're on about if you only ask. Things are happening all the time, visibly and otherwise, and as has been said, just because you're not online at the time doesn't mean they aren't happening. Truth of the matter is, if the matter of, say, banning people was up to debate, or even discussion, the forum would be flooded with folks going "this mod doesn't like, this mod did that, fuck the mods, dickriding the mods" and all that everywhere… and REALLY, this isn't an environment worth that. We could have much, much worse than what we've got. It's been said that the mods here are running everything swimmingly, right? You posted a suggestion in the suggestion forums and here it is, effectively being considered.

                                                                                                      Isn't that proof the lines of communications are clearly open? I mean, like, the mods post ALL over. If you want to know about someone, chat them up!

                                                                                                      Do people really think of the mods as these officious schoolmarms that slap your hand with a ruler if you so much as make eye contact? How can they, when they're over posting about what they didn't like about the latest Final Fantasy, or the most recent episode of Adventure Time, Thundercats, etc, just like the rest of us? They're all over the place! Stalk 'em a little. They're no different than a regular member in that regard.

                                                                                                      Maybe I'm just not understanding the issue.

                                                                                                      If something more specific than "the mods don't talk enough about themselves" or "new members who haven't spoken to a mod haven't spoken to a mod" or "i want more say" that can be parsed from all this it'd be nice to hear it.

                                                                                                      What is really being asked for, here?

                                                                                                      Originally Posted by Wagomu

                                                                                                      There's a great lighthearted vibe around here, because no matter how serious we might get, we're all together because of some magical pirate.

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                                                                                                      • I survived the buster call
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                                                                                                        Oddly enough, perhaps, to you, Kenny and Smudge, I think its more important that the staff know the people of the general forums, than the other way around. After all, they are making decisions about those folks. As long as they post, or read, at the least, and keep a healthy attitude towards the hijinks of members, then that can be enough to do the job (though I wish those from the main staff that don't would post more since they are often among the best theorizers on the forums, but that is a whole different issue, and still I recognize that its not anything that they owe anyone else…)

                                                                                                        The fact that there is a group of mods who actively discuss the larger things means almost by definition that there is probably always a sort of built in checks and balances system, since statistically speaking, any given group of people is going to disagree on certain points at certain times, which requires discussion. If the members of said group happen to get along well, as our staff do, then all the better for the healthy discussion necessary and the resultant healthy functioning of the forums–friends are more free to disagree and work it out than those who are uncomfortable with each other, not the other way around, as many seem to think when they post about worries that staff don't want to contradict each other for fear of… something, I'm not quite sure what these people think they will fear, actually. They aren't young children--all of the staff are responsible adults--fully able to think for themselves and express opinions within the group.

                                                                                                        Any additional feedback that forum members feel needs to be expressed has many avenues to make its way to staff members in existence already. I agree with those who've said that staff don't owe anyone here personal information any more than anyone else on the forums. Its a discussion forum for One Piece, primarily. It can be more to many people, and frequently is, but there is no necessity for anyone to be more involved than they chose to--certainly not at a personal level--even, or especially, the staff.

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