How did you first feel about the Luffy Vs. Usopp fight?

wolfwood

well the diffrence to me is that arlong isnt his friend they are strictly enemies so he doesnt have to care about his feelings,
usopp and luffys relationship isnt stricyly captain-crew member they are also friends good friends so he could have shown consideration of his friends feelings.

well usopp didnt start screaming right after he said it first he started questioning why they couldnt fix it and that to me would have been a great place for luffy to tell him all about what was wrong with merry and show him.

then when luffy just said that they told him so and said it was just a ship and could easily be replaced then he started screaming.

wintergt

@wolfwood:

usopp and luffys relationship isnt stricyly captain-crew member they are also friends good friends so he could have shown consideration of his friends feelings.

Yes they are friends, but when Luffy makes a captain's order, he's a captain and has to act like one.

About the other things I wanted to say, Ivotas kinda took the words out of my mouth already, so to speak. So I'll refer you to his post just above yours

edit: also, I just reread that part in the manga, you might want to do the same. Luffy did explain that going merry couldn't be fixed anymore. Usopp just didn't believe him, saying "you just believe what some stupid carpenters say?" And then Usopp started freaking out and yelling while Luffy was still calm, saying "don't act like you're a real captain" and "I've misjudged you". So…

wolfwood

of course its not a single persons fault just that i felt that i had to point out that luffy also acted like an asshole since people usualy rationlize luffys behavior with hes a captain hes supposed to be un-neccisarly cruel to his crew/friends when he s making a "captains order" which i dont agree with,

why is breaking the news to him with all the facts the same as talking to him like a sissy girl ? i just dont get that argument.

and i just dont buy this they are pirates so they dont have to care about their friends cause they are pirates doesnt mean that you can act any way you want with your friends thats how i feel about it.

and if my teacher would act against me like luffy did i would probably be like usopp,
but luckily my teacher would never do that since hes far to good of a leader to not take into consideration the feelings of his students

EDIT and no he didnt explain what was wrong with it he just said they told me so,
if he had explained like the one they got at the shipyard or the one franky gave to usopp(also showing him what was wrong) i say this whole mess wouldnt have escalated so far.

joekido the Second

Wwweelll…. You have to remamber, Usopp does not hate Luffy; he just don't agree with his decision even if he knew the ship sink. Now over a year these two are still sepearated and I'll like to see them get reunite. Usopp has showed he's the man, he dress up as Sogeking to slowly repair his ties with his former friends, I really want the chapter where Luffy and Usopp make up to come up soon and end this yearlong sepearation.

Ivotas

@wolfwood:

usopp and luffys relationship isnt stricyly captain-crew member they are also friends good friends so he could have shown consideration of his friends feelings.

Yes they are friends, but still when it getÂ´s serious most of them act like pirates. Let me just rewrite it one more time and this time I add the fact that Zoro and Luffy are also friends. Here it goes (once again):

In Rain Dinners Luffy orders Zoro to save Smokers life. Zoro canÂ´t be pleased that this dangerous guy who wants to get rid of all of them will remain walking around, but it was a captains order (no matter the friendship) and he listened to it.
While escaping from Rain Base Luffy got left behind with Crocodile. Luffy ordered the others to keep going for Arbana. It was Zoro who understand that first. Again he couldnÂ´t be pleased to leave his friend behind but it was the captains order and he accepted it (while Usopp was the only one who had a problem with it).
In Mocktown Luffy told Zoro not to fight back Bellamy. At first he wasnÂ´t pleased that his fiend and captain was knocked down by the Hyena but after taking the captains orders he decided not to fight back and get even himself beaten up.
During fight with Aokiji Luffy ordered Sanji and Zoro to retreat. They both couldnÂ´t be happy to let their friend take it out alone with a guy who was that strong, but it was the captains orders so they listened to it (while it was again Usopp who was yelling around not being able to understand it).

You see all the Strawhats are friends, but that doesnÂ´t mean that there isnÂ´t some sort of clear hirarchy when it gets to serious moments. Some crewmates have already proven that they are able to tell the difference when they are talking to Luffy the friend or Luffy the captain. And Usopp so far has proven that he is not able to make that difference.

wintergt

@wolfwood:

EDIT and no he didnt explain what was wrong with it he just said they told me so,
if he had explained like the one they got at the shipyard or the one franky gave to usopp(also showing him what was wrong) i say this whole mess wouldnt have escalated so far.

Please reread the manga chapter 331. Luffy announced his decision, calmly. Usopp started screaming (!) "what is it? Tell me! Don't worry about hurting my feelings!" Luffy got a bit heated by Usopp's reaction, but was still reasonable and said going merry was going to die. Then Usopp got even more mad and questioned the carpenters' skills and authority. Luffy then said: "What would you know? You're not a carpenter" Then Usopp got royally pissed at Luffy, saying stuff like "stop bluffing brat", "don't say 'I've decided' like you're a real captain" and "I've misjudged you". Luffy's reaction? "I have made my decision and I won't change it."

Seriously, who is the asshole in this discussion?…

Ivotas

@wolfwood:

why is breaking the news to him with all the facts the same as talking to him like a sissy girl ? i just dont get that argument.

How often do I have to repeat it, they are pirates for christs sake. Remember the speech Zoro gave to Chopper while he was crying after Foxy took him as crewmember? This is pirates that we are talking about, not my Little Ponies. HeÂ´s talking from man to man and a real man wouldnÂ´t freak that much out. IÂ´m not saying that Usopp did wrong with the objection. That was ok, but the way how he freaked out proves that he is not man enough to cope with it so maybe he would have been more reasoable if he would be talking to him as if he would be a sissy girl.

And just as I already said, Luffy was always sharp and clear in his statements throught the entire story and no one ever complained. So why should he have changed his behaviour here if nobody had a problem with it that far? If his words would always have caused duels between captain and crew then I would call his attitude ass-holic but this was the first time, so why blaming him for acting like he always does? His words never caused a scene like that before. Maybe Luffy would have talked differently if he would have had such an experience before but he didnÂ´t. Everyone liked Luffy the way he was and DO-N!!! out of a sudden it is not that good anymore? I fail to see the logic here.

wintergt

@wolfwood:

and if my teacher would act against me like luffy did i would probably be like usopp,
but luckily my teacher would never do that since hes far to good of a leader to not take into consideration the feelings of his students

That would actually be quite an interesting sight.

Teacher (smiles): Ok class, I've decided we're going to change classrooms
you (stands up and starts screaming): What?? Why?? Tell me and don't worry about hurting my feelings!
Teacher: We've had some carpenters over and they said this room isn't safe anymore, the ceiling could collapse
you: but I've had all these fun moments here! Who are these stupid carpenters, and what the hell do they know? Are you just gonna believe them?? (gets heated mad) A classroom is just a tool for teaching to you isn't it??!
rest of the class: eh plz calm down man..
Teacher: you're not a carpenter, how would you know?
you: (fuming mad) Stop bluffing you retard, and don't say "I've decided" like you're a real teacher. I've seriously misjudged you!
Teacher (resolute): I've made my decision and it's final
you: You cold-blooded idiot, how can you ruthlessly leave this great classroom behind? Like a dying comrade!
Teacher: That's stupid, classrooms and people are two different things!
(etc)

This is what you would do?

Seriously… who would be the asshole here?

wolfwood

jack to that question i say both
i dont feel that any of those two are without blame.

a real man huh so whats a real man is it Zoro who shuts out all his emotions and feelings and just acts like a zombie when ever luffy orders him around?
and back on track i dont care if doing it a better way would be considered a sissy way it would still be a better way of doing it.

and as said this time he crossed the line atleast to me i hope he wont do it again since hes the leader and needs to be able to talk to his crew,
pirate captains who just bark orders and ignore the needs and feelings of his crew usualy get overthrown(whats the word ? is mutiny right?) atleast in real life.

EDIT hahah thats a funny comparision but it doesnt work since i dont have any emotional ties with the class rooms:laugh:
oh and that is kinda biased isnt it ?
to make it look like i was crazy for thinking that luffy wasnt the perfect captainXD

wintergt

@wolfwood:

jack to that question i say both
i dont feel that any of those two are without blame.

You're quite the stubborn one aren't you?

Anyway, I pretty much gave the dialogue exactly how it was in the manga.. so if you keep insisting that Luffy is an asshole for saying "a ship and a person are two different things" (after Usopp called him cold-blooded and accused him of leaving behind a dying comrade) and not pointing at the cracks that Going Merry had for an explanation (after Usopp called him a damn brat and a fake captain) then, well, there's not much left to talk about.. to me, Luffy seemed to remain pretty level-headed considering the abuse he was taking from Usopp..

wolfwood

well to go back to the statment that started this it was the smiling and just basicly saying that merry didnt matter at all and could be replaced by anything,
when he knew perfectly well it matter a whole lot to usopp and that was what i considered to be bad behavior i may be weird for thinking that but thats my stance.

and as said that analogy makes no sense since i dont have the extreme emotional attachments to the classroom as usopp had to merry.
if it was something that meant the world to me and he decieded to throw it away without a proper explanation of course i would argue against it.

and to me merry was a nakama,
but if it to you it was just a ship a means of transportation ill of course your gonna take luffys side 100%.

in conclusion in my book usopp and luffy were both assholes.

wintergt

Hm, maybe that's what happened in the anime? I don't remember the exact details anymore, but maybe they changed it around a bit. In the manga (the real story) Luffy did no such things.. all he said was that ships aren't people, and he surely didn't smile. He even said that Going Merry meant a lot to him but that he had no choice. But alas, Usopp was already well beyond reason at this point.

wolfwood

well no he didnt say it outloud but thats the way i saw it when he sat there smiling and just said he had decieded that he was exchanging merry (usopps treasure) for a new ship a better ship and he showed no remorse or regret at all making it seem like he had no attachments to merry at all.

it was just before the fight begun.

and as you said when he showed that he really had some attachments for merry they had already started fighting and usopp was to pissed.

CosmicDebris

@jackvance:

Luffy would be putting his entire crew's lives at risk if he kept sailing the Going Merry when he knows it's gonna sink any second. He did the right thing. The dog analogy is majorly flawed. A better analogy would be if your mechanic told you your car could explode any minute now, would you get a new one or not?

While the dog analogy is flawed, so is the car analogy, because unlike a car, Merry is actually alive. This isn't the real world. I think a better analogy is you have a friend on life-support given an expert diagnosis certain death. One person wants to hold on to hope or recovery, the other wants to pull the plug.

Ivotas

@wolfwood:

a real man huh so whats a real man is it Zoro who shuts out all his emotions and feelings and just acts like a zombie when ever luffy orders him around?

Oh come on, youÂ´re to intelligent to really resort to such a dull argument. Just because Zoro listens to Luffy it doesnÂ´t make him a zomie. Zoro crealy elaborated what was going through his head when he was leaving Luffy behind in the desert. He told Vivi that she has to stop the war even if one of their lives will be put on the line. In MockTown he later told Nami why he didnÂ´t fight back. So donÂ´t make such a dull zombie argument.

And to spin the web even further, yes this is how I define not only a real man but also a real woman. A person who is able to puts the desires of others over his/her own ones is what makes a real person for me. Zoro has proven that because he never could have been pleased himself with the orders Luffy gave him, but they were necessary for the greater cause. IÂ´ll get back to the greater cause later again.

and back on track i dont care if doing it a better way would be considered a sissy way it would still be a better way of doing it.

Well this is where you and I are different. I say I donÂ´t care if a sissy way would be considered a better way it would still be a sissy way of doing it.

I donÂ´t think that even the Strawhats are prefer sympathy that much. Remember back in the Kuro arc where Luffy, Zoro and Nami told that they never put their lives at stake just for the sake of sympathy. The do it because they admire Usopps courage. Sympathy would be the "sissy way".

and as said this time he crossed the line atleast to me i hope he wont do it again since hes the leader and needs to be able to talk to his crew,
pirate captains who just bark orders and ignore the needs and feelings of his crew usualy get overthrown(whats the word ? is mutiny right?) atleast in real life.

What are you talking about? Usopp is the only one who doesnÂ´t think of the otherÂ´s needs. Even if Merry is a sensetive being to him, then what the hell are Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Sanji, Chopper and Robin to him? ArenÂ´t they worth less then Merry? IÂ´m sorry but he is completely egoistic because he just thinks of his own needs instead of the greater cause, his friends. This reminds me of a childs behaviour that starts fighting with his friends because of a toy. No, Usopp is not a real man here. He is egoistic. And if it is required to yell back at him for that, then so be it! ItÂ´s not like Usopp didnÂ´t deserve it with being such an egoistic asshole.

wintergt

@wolfwood:

well no he didnt say it outloud but thats the way i saw it when he sat there smiling and just said he had decieded that he was exchanging merry (usopps treasure) for a new ship a better ship and he showed no remorse or regret at all making it seem like he had no attachments to merry at all.

You're forgetting that it was a hard decision for Luffy. He surely was dead serious and not laughing when he first made and announced his decision, right after the destruction of the Franky House. But Usopp wasn't there to see it. When Usopp heard about it, much later on the going merry, it was already a "done deal", Luffy had made his decision and he had accepted it and moved on. The moment of grief had already past and Luffy was in his regular good mood, like he always is. But Usopp immediately freaked out (which was totally uncalled for - as Ivotas took great pains to explain, he is a crewmember in a pirate crew and he found out about a captain's order, even if he doesn't like it, he could at the very least have been man enough to stay calm when expressing his doubts) and started pretty severe name calling.

I'll repeat, if your gripe is that he wasn't crying or something when he told Usopp, this moment had past for Luffy and his mind was already set on selecting a new ship. That is not being an asshole (he surely didn't mean to hurt Usopp's feelings), that is Luffy being Luffy, and it is how he always has been and always will be. Usopp really should have known better than to freak out, either as Luffy's friend, knowing that Luffy would never willingly hurt him, or as a crewmember to his captain, hearing about an order.

(but like I said, the way it went he was plagued with great doubts which already put him on edge and made him snap).

Btw, it seems we've come to point of just endless repeating, so this is probably the last thing I'm gonna say about this

wolfwood

wasnt an argument was just wondering what a real man is supposed to be,
and i really think Zoro acts like a Zombie sometimes just my opinion though.

and it wouldnt be sympathy it would just be tellling him the facts like that the keel is broken and without the keel the ship cant sail,
and if he doesnt know what a keel is they could have explained it as Paulie did at the shipyard.

the last statment was just that when you said that a real captain yells orders and doesnt care what the crew thinks i said that if they did that in the real life they would have a mutiny on their hands.
it had nothing to do with luffy acctualykinda bad place to put it maybe but it just popped into my head whilst writing.

and jack thats exactly my gripe and what kinda excuse is that ?
i explained it to all the other guys so i dont have to do it with usopp he will just understand cause i told the others earlier…when he wasnt there oh well he will probably understand anywayXD.

if luffy had been crying or atleast shown some kinda sadness when he broke the news i dont think he would have been so pissed.

but oh well if you dont wanna argue some more lets just leave it at that.

GUTB

Oh god, look.

Ussop was RIGHT and Luffy was WRONG. Luffy saw the ship as just a tool with a lot of sentimental value. It was important to him, but if it interfered with his dream or endangered his nakama, than it can be discarded "nakama are people, ships are different!" But Luffy didn't know about the Klaubertmann, about how the ship did have a soul and that it loved them SO much that even went to the unheard of extreme to repair itself. Ussop felt that the ship was a nakama, not just a tool. That is why Ussop was right and Luffy was wrong.

But on the other side of things, Luffy is a pirate captain. Pirate captains are the captain because they are the strongest. That's pretty much all there is to it when it comes to pirates. So when it comes down to it, might makes right in a pirate crew, even as one as nice and friendly as the Straw Hats. What Luffy says goes and if someone doesn't like it the issue would naturally have to be resolved by a fight.

wolfwood

well im not claiming to be right what i say is just how i feel about this whole situation and i think both luffy and usopp acted bad….

joekido the Second

Hey Wolfwood, quit being a stubborn whippsnapper will ya?

Anyway let's analyze it closer and Wolfwood mark my words, "Pay Attention":

1. Usopp was responsible to carry 200 million berries, he wondered off, meanwhile in a shipyard Kaku tells Luffy that the ship is irrepairable; how did Luffy react? He was all "No! No! The Going Marry was sailing just fine! Damn please! We have 300 million berries! Please repair our ship; this ship crossed the mountain, it got shot up in the sky and it was sailing just fine! I thougth you guys are frist-rated shipwrights!!" and where was Usopp? Getting mugged by the Franky Familiy and got dragged somewhere else and did he see Luffy reacting that way? No. Did Luffy laughed about the news? No. Luffy was just how Usopp is going to act later. Iceburg said even with 300 million berries they will never save the ship and he remarked that he was disgusted by Luffy's initial reaction; Iceburg even said "You called yourself captain? You disgusted me". Iceburg is right because he is older then Luffy and Usopp and he has more experiance then them. And did Luffy became a zombie or just sudden agreeing with Iceburg? No.

2. Usopp was mugged during that situation; he was suppose to take care of the 200 million berries, why? Is it because it's his responsiblity? No, he wanted them to save his ship, he did not care about what is going on, he thinks olny about his ship the whole time; his shows he never really cares about his friends and puts his self-esteem on a ship. Usopp may help his friends olny because they would not make any choices he don't like. Yes the ship orginally belonged to Kaya, it was his treasure but the ship is just ship, Usopp did not seaprate the differance between something that is made of flash and blood from something that is not alive. He sees the ship more of an important then his friends.

Let's look closer

Lack of commutication: In the warehouse he told Franky that he knew the ship was going to sink and he told him about a strange figure that repaires the ship back to it's orginal shape in Skypiea. Franky understood him and told him about the Klabutermann. Tell me why did he not tell Luffy what he told Franky? If Usopp tell Luffy this he could understand but it seems he thinks if he tells him won't mean a thing. Any crew would have a gut tell his captain what he thinks if a crew does not for a reason for himself then he is not a real crew. Usopp thinks that Luffy is mean yet he expect Luffy to read his mind, he said he misjudged Luffy. He expect Luffy to just shut up and move on.

Misunderstanding: When Kaku threw the ship into the ocean Usopp freaks out. Tell me did Luffy want to to do that? After Luffy and his crews ruined the Franky house Luffy made a hard decision that he is not happy about you can look at his expression. He decided to PART from the Marry, where was Usopp? Lying on the ground knocked out by the Franky Family earlier. He was not wake to see Luffy does care. Luffy decided to leave the Going Marry, Luffy and the crews understood and the deal was pasted. Zoro once said that a wonded man recoverd and become stronger but for a ship it olny gets weaker. Luffy would be an asshole if he just listens to Usopp and puts his friends in danger. Luffy did what it takes to be a captain and Usopp doubted Luffy.

wolfwood

no i wont ill stand up for my opinion even if it bother you

and to be totaly painfuly honest i cant understand half of that due to the bad grammar:hmm:

but what little i can make out doesnt change my opinion the least since your talking about something entirely diffrent.
im talking about one moment aboard when luffy acted like an ass your way out there talking about the other things that happend before and after,
maybe you have an excellent point but i just dont get it.

oh yeah please dont act like your obviously right and im wrong i hate when people do that,
thats how you look at it and i have a diffrent way of seeing it…..

wintergt

@GUTB:

Ussop was RIGHT and Luffy was WRONG.

That's great GUTB, but that's not what this discussion was about. It was about whether or not Luffy was an asshole in the argument with Usopp.

And btw, you're wrong too. Because if Usopp was right, and they would have gone with his "right opinion" - fixed the Going Merry up and set sail again - then they would have sank and died.

wolfwood

@jackvance:

That's great GUTB, but that's not what this discussion was about. It was about whether or not Luffy was an asshole in the argument with Usopp.

And btw, you're wrong too. Because if Usopp was right, and they would have gone with his "right opinion" - fixed the Going Merry up and set sail again - then they would have sank and died.

even i will agree with that:laugh:
and just to make it clear to everyone who hasnt had the time to read the whole thread since i started arguing( i know i tend to get a little long winded) im not saying usopp was right im merly stating my opinion that the way luffy broke the news to usopp was fricking stupid and that he acted like an ass(for that breif moment)….

EDIT and damn i never thought we could have such a long argument about such an insignificant thingXD

wintergt

@wolfwood:

the way luffy broke the news to usopp was fricking stupid and that he acted like an ass(for that breif moment)….

You know if you had said it like that I probably wouldn't even have argued (although I probably would have worded it as "unfortunate how he broke the news").. but when you called Luffy an asshole, it kinda made me think you were saying he was berating Usopp on purpose or something

and damn i never thought we could have such a long argument about such an insignificant thing

lol.. a friend just called me on the phone
him: "You have an exam in two days right? So how's the studying going?"
me, looking at these boards: "about that…"
gah..

Ivotas

@wolfwood:

wasnt an argument was just wondering what a real man is supposed to be,
and i really think Zoro acts like a Zombie sometimes just my opinion though.

You wanna elaborate that a little bit, just that I see where that impression comes from.

Other then that I have nothing else to say to the matter because everything was said and it would just get repetative from there on. To me Usopp acted like a little kid. If he would have been mature enough he would have dealt differently with that situation, no matter what Luffy said. IÂ´ll leave it like that.

@GUTB:

Ussop was RIGHT and Luffy was WRONG.

With that youÂ´ve just made my igno list. Feel free to post more of your "my opinion is the only right one" posts, cause they wonÂ´t be getting on my nerves ever again. Have fun trolling around.

Polygon

Oh god, look.

Ussop was RIGHT and Luffy was WRONG. Luffy saw the ship as just a tool with a lot of sentimental value. It was important to him, but if it interfered with his dream or endangered his nakama, than it can be discarded "nakama are people, ships are different!" But Luffy didn't know about the Klaubertmann, about how the ship did have a soul and that it loved them SO much that even went to the unheard of extreme to repair itself. Ussop felt that the ship was a nakama, not just a tool. That is why Ussop was right and Luffy was wrong.

Luffy never, ever saw Merry as just a tool. D you not remember all those times when he was talking to merry or when he said that merry is there nakama?The ship did have a soul, But remember it's words in skypeia? It went " It's okay i'll carry you all just a little longer." This shows that merry knew it would meet it's fate, Sailing with the going merry any further would be torture for it considering it is living. Would you make a treasured horse carry you with a broken leg?Ussop like any other mugiwara considered the ship a nakama, the only difference is that ussop couldn't handle not having the merry.

But on the other side of things, Luffy is a pirate captain. Pirate captains are the captain because they are the strongest. That's pretty much all there is to it when it comes to pirates. So when it comes down to it, might makes right in a pirate crew, even as one as nice and friendly as the Straw Hats. What Luffy says goes and if someone doesn't like it the issue would naturally have to be resolved by a fight.

Pirate captions are not the captions because they are the strongest, but rather because they are the caption. The issue didn't HAVE to be resolved in a fight, but it was.

GUTB

Okay, yes, Luffy was being an authoratarian ass. He was completely in the "I'm the senchou!" mode. HOWEVER! It is completely wrong to think that Ussop would have backed down on the issue if Luffy had been nicer about it. Because to Ussop, hearing Luffy declare Merry dead and wanting a new ship was the same as hearing him proclaim a best friend or loved one dead, and how they were going to get a new one.

wintergt

GUTB.. who/what are you replying to? Is there like an alternate reality with different posts that you read but your replies end up here?

GUTB

…? You were the one who felt the need to remind the thread that it was about wether or not Luffy was being an ass. So, okay, yes, he was being an ass.

However, it wouldn't have made a difference even if he was being nice. The only thing he could have done was give in to Ussop, and went on a search for a way to fix Merry. But he didn't. He basically told him that if he didn't like it he could leave the crew -- in so many words.

And a pirate captain is a captain because he's the strongest. That is a universal fact in the series that's never been countered. Luffy is the captain because he's the strongest of the Straw Hats. That doesn't mean he rules based on violence, but in his case, the crew admires him for his greatness.

wintergt

Ok so you are capable of reading other people's replies, just checking. I don't agree at all with what you said, but you're just fishing for a repeat of the argument we just had so whatever.

GUTB

No, I entered this debate because incredbly wrong things were being said about Ussop and the whole Merry thing.

Luffy considered the ship not a living person. That is a FACT. He SAYS so during the argument "Nakama are people, ships are different!" which was in response to Ussop's assertaion that Merry was a nakama. Luffy said that Merry was going to sink, that she can't be fixed, and they WILL part with her here. If Luffy really thought of Merry has a nakama, would he say those things? No he wouldn't.

Polygon

@GUTB:

No, I entered this debate because incredbly wrong things were being said about Ussop and the whole Merry thing.

Luffy considered the ship not a living person. That is a FACT. He SAYS so during the argument "Nakama are people, ships are different!" which was in response to Ussop's assertaion that Merry was a nakama. Luffy said that Merry was going to sink, that she can't be fixed, and they WILL part with her here. If Luffy really thought of Merry has a nakama, would he say those things? No he wouldn't.

You know what's wrong with you?

You're big, Green and ugly.

CosmicDebris

What are you talking about? Usopp is the only one who doesnÂ´t think of the otherÂ´s needs. Even if Merry is a sensetive being to him, then what the hell are Luffy, Zoro, Nami, Sanji, Chopper and Robin to him? ArenÂ´t they worth less then Merry? IÂ´m sorry but he is completely egoistic because he just thinks of his own needs instead of the greater cause, his friends. This reminds me of a childs behaviour that starts fighting with his friends because of a toy. No, Usopp is not a real man here. He is egoistic. And if it is required to yell back at him for that, then so be it! ItÂ´s not like Usopp didnÂ´t deserve it with being such an egoistic asshole.

OK, this is the kind of post that really pisses me off. Haven't we been through this before?

Merry is not a toy. Merry is alive. Merry is nakama. Therefore, you cannot logically say Usopp is being egotistical for not wanting leave nakama behind. That has nothing to do with his own needs. The rest of the crew isn't less important, but he became disillusioned because his friends were suddenly deciding that nakama is only as good as their usefullness.
Usopp may have been wrong to get into a fight and leave the crew, but it's nothing less than admirable to stand up and put your life on the line for someone you care about.

joekido the Second

@CosmicDebris:

OK, this is the kind of post that really pisses me off. Haven't we been through this before?

Merry is not a toy. Merry is alive. Merry is nakama. Therefore, you cannot logically say Usopp is being egotistical for not wanting leave nakama behind. That has nothing to do with his own needs. The rest of the crew isn't less important, but he became disillusioned because his friends were suddenly deciding that nakama is only as good as their usefullness.
Usopp may have been wrong to get into a fight and leave the crew, but it's nothing less than admirable to stand up and put your life on the line for someone you care about.

God, this topic is about "What did you frist react about the Luffy Vs. Usopp fight" Not "Who is the asshole; Luffy or Usopp" This is not a flame war attempt. Usopp and Luffy both screwed it up.

Ivotas

@CosmicDebris:

OK, this is the kind of post that really pisses me off. Haven't we been through this before?

First of all IÂ´d like to ask you to pay a little bit more attention on your wording if that is not too much asked, ok?

And secondly, if you could calm down and try to read through the entire argument without reacting hysteric then you see what the point is. IÂ´m not going to repeat myself. IÂ´ve said everything in all my posts. I made it clear how much I love Usopp and why I have my reasons to think of it that way. Please respect that and donÂ´t overreact like your favorite character himself.

IÂ´m not trying to diss you or anything, but if you canÂ´t stay cool on the topic, then perhaps you should just sit that one out. I have no interests in flame wars here. This is a discussion board now is it?

CosmicDebris

@Ivotas:

First of all IÂ´d like to ask you to pay a little bit more attention on your wording if that is not too much asked, ok?

And secondly, if you could calm down and try to read through the entire argument without reacting hysteric then you see what the point is. IÂ´m not going to repeat myself. IÂ´ve said everything in all my posts. I made it clear how much I love Usopp and why I have my reasons to think of it that way. Please respect that and donÂ´t overreact like your favorite character himself.

IÂ´m not trying to diss you or anything, but if you canÂ´t stay cool on the topic, then perhaps you should just sit that one out. I have no interests in flame wars here. This is a discussion board now is it?

Just because I said it pisses me off, all of a sudden I'm hysterical? The rest of my post was very calm. Maybe you should have paid more attention to the wording in your own post first. I think it's totally uncalled for you to say Usopp was being "an egotisical asshole". I wasn't over-reacting. Just vehemently disagreeing.

wintergt

@CosmicDebris:

Merry is not a toy. Merry is alive. Merry is nakama. Therefore, you cannot logically say Usopp is being egotistical for not wanting leave nakama behind. That has nothing to do with his own needs. The rest of the crew isn't less important, but he became disillusioned because his friends were suddenly deciding that nakama is only as good as their usefullness.

I agree with Ivotas here. Even if I go along with the premises that a ship can be a full-fledged nakama (which is debatable, but I'll go along with it), it wasn't the lack of usefullness that made Luffy abandon Going Merry, it was the fact that continuing to hang out with this nakama would kill him Ã¡nd his crew. Usopp insisted on staying with Going Merry, while he very well knew the shape she was in (he confessed this to Franky lateron). So he put his own needs (wanting to stay with the ship) before that of his nakama (because they would all drown and die if they stayed with the Going Merry). So yes, Usopp was being selfish.

CosmicDebris

@jackvance:

I agree with Ivotas here. Even if I go along with the premises that a ship can be a full-fledged nakama (which is debatable, but I'll go along with it), it wasn't the lack of usefullness that made Luffy abandon Going Merry, it was the fact that continuing to hang out with this nakama would kill him Ã¡nd his crew. Usopp insisted on staying with Going Merry, while he very well knew the shape she was in (he confessed this to Franky lateron). So he put his own needs (wanting to stay with the ship) before that of his nakama (because they would all drown and die if they stayed with the Going Merry). So yes, Usopp was being selfish.

But I agree with all of that too…except that Usopp was being selfish. Usopp doesn't need Merry. It was nothing about his own needs. It's just part of his character that he doesn't want to give up hope. When his mom was on her deathbed, even though he knew she was dying, he was still hoping for that miracle cure that didn't exist.

And believe me, I understand the other side of the issue. Over on another forum, I've had some big arguments for Luffy's side with Usopp fans that don't want to see Luffy's side at all.

Ivotas

This post is deleted!

Ivotas

@CosmicDebris:

Just because I said it pisses me off, all of a sudden I'm hysterical? The rest of my post was very calm. Maybe you should have paid more attention to the wording in your own post first. I think it's totally uncalled for you to say Usopp was being "an egotisical asshole". I wasn't over-reacting. Just vehemently disagreeing.

I can call a characterÂ´s behaviour whatever I want to if I feel that it is right. You haver targeted your wording not towards a character but towards my post and indirectly towards myself. IÂ´m sure youÂ´re smart enough to see the difference.

And just to finish this thing once and fore all. I already said that Merry is a sesitive being for him. But what are the otherÂ´s then? I never said that it is easy on chosing between lives but he definitely wasnÂ´t calm enough to make a reasonable consideration of the entire situation. His emotions got over him and made him make an egoistic decision. I stay by it. I donÂ´t say that he does it because he has a bad character. No, he has a pure heart and thatÂ´s the reason why is so fired up about it. And sorry, but he is selfish in a non-greedy way. He commits to Franky that he knew about MerryÂ´s bad condition already. And he was still willing to put his nakamaÂ´s lives at stake just to keep with Merry? IÂ´m sorry, Usopp maybe has a good heart but not thinking of the common good of the entire crew is what makes him egoistic. IÂ´m sorry but thatÂ´s how I see it. I donÂ´t dislike him, but he didnÂ´t think of the others. If you remember correctly it was also because he felt inferior. ItÂ´s all about his own problems that made him act irrational. And thatÂ´s where it gets selfish, if he just seeÂ´s his own problems and not the ones of the others.

I hope you understand that I donÂ´t have a problem with Usopp himself but with his behaviour in the entire scene.

GUTB

As has been pointed out, Ussop wasn't ignorant about Merry's condition. He just felt it was wrong to abandon her to die. He thought it was wrong because he sees Marry as being living being, a nakama. Luffy didn't. But IF Luffy knew otherwise, if he could see the ship as a living person, than it would be unthinkable for him to abandon her and get a new ship.

CosmicDebris

@Ivotas:

I can call a characterÂ´s behaviour whatever I want to if I feel that it is right. You haver targeted your wording not towards a character but towards my post and indirectly towards myself. IÂ´m sure youÂ´re smart enough to see the difference.

Show me where I said something bad about you?

And just to finish this thing once and fore all. I already said that Merry is a sesitive being for him. But what are the otherÂ´s then? I never said that it is easy on chosing between lives but he definitely wasnÂ´t calm enough to make a reasonable consideration of the entire situation.

True, but as I said, the others did something that caused him to lose a certain degree of trust and respect for them. He believed very strongly that Merry was just the same as the rest of his nakama. How could he just sweep something under the carpet that violated his sense of morality so deeply? I think he realized his mistake later when he talked to Franky because Franky agreed the ship was alive but explained that a ship is only happy as long as it can keep the crew safe, and also, with the situation with Robin he was able to reaffirm that Luffy was someone he could have faith in.

I hope you understand that I donÂ´t have a problem with Usopp himself but with his behaviour in the entire scene.

I do understand that. I just don't agree with your assessment of the situation entirely. I hope you don't think I have a problem with you as a person because I disagree.

Redpirate

I think Usopp saw the Merry as his last tangible link to Kaya.
So, in a way, he was blinded by love. Not just for the Merry but Kaya and probably his home as well.
His actions were selfish as JackVance said, but under the circumstances, understandable.
He's in a frightening place a long way from home and the only part of home he could bring with him is going to be discarded.
So he clings to it. He knows it's not the right thing to do and he makes up for it later without loosing face but at that moment he probably feels like his identity is being stripped away and he's scared because he has to let go of village boy Usopp and so the game ends.
Now it's for real like never before.

Forbidden Toast

I guess I'll put the standard of both characters up to avoid appearing to take sides.

Usopp veiwed the Going Merry as his last like to Kaya (as said very well by Redpirate), on the other hand, Luffy, was seeing the ship as in the way of his own dreams and ideals. Luffy didn't get the ship as a gift, nor lived in the same village as Usopp, so although he had feelings for the ship he knew it was time to move on, because nothing stands in the way between him and his quest for One Piece.

That's really pretty much all there is too it, I think. Neither one was being a jerk, they both had perfectly good reasons for what they were doing. It's like the Going Merry is old and dying- Usopp wants to keep him alive, but Luffy knows that the Going Merry has made all his life accomplishments a reality and is ready to move on. It's more of an acceptance problem.

GUTB

How many of you actually paid attention to what was actually said in the argument:

Ussop: "Merry is a nakama, a living being with her own potential! Are you going to throw away a nakama because they aren't useful?"

Luffy: "Nakama are people, ships are different! Merry is going to die! Merry can't be fixed! So we're going to get a new ship and that's final!!!!"

Ussop saw the ship as a nakama equal to any other Straw Hat. Luffy say Merry as an object with a lot of sentimental value. In the real world, Luffy would be correct; if a ship was going to sink it endangered the crew and so must be thrown out. But in OP, Merry actually does have a soul and a will of her own, so in this case Ussop is correct. If Luffy knew that, had seen the klaubertamann and heard the ship talk to them then he wouldn't be abandoning Merry.

Polygon

@GUTB:

How many of you actually paid attention to what was actually said in the argument:

Ussop: "Merry is a nakama, a living being with her own potential! Are you going to throw away a nakama because they aren't useful?"

Luffy: "Nakama are people, ships are different! Merry is going to die! Merry can't be fixed! So we're going to get a new ship and that's final!!!!"

Ussop saw the ship as a nakama equal to any other Straw Hat. Luffy say Merry as an object with a lot of sentimental value. In the real world, Luffy would be correct; if a ship was going to sink it endangered the crew and so must be thrown out. But in OP, Merry actually does have a soul and a will of her own, so in this case Ussop is correct. If Luffy knew that, had seen the klaubertamann and heard the ship talk to them then he wouldn't be abandoning Merry.

NO, merry knew what was going to happen. Sailing any further would kill him. Luffy wanted to leave the ship in peace. Taking ussop's side would destroy merry. Would you rather a sick friend stayed in bed or ran outside? Luffy did consider the sa nakama. He never said nakama are only people. Ussop knew merry would die if they sailed any further.

changsho

He never said nakama are only people

Food for thought. (Personally, I'm still confused.)

From stephen's translation, chapter 227:
_Usopp: Dammit.
THAT STUPID ORANGUTAN!!!
He busted up the ship even more!!!

Zoro: You wake up, and this thing is falling apart…
Time to get a new one?

Usopp: YOU SHUT THE HELL UP!!

Luffy: Hey, don't complain about it, Usopp!
The Going Merry is our good companion.
Let's try hard! And fix it up!!

Usopp: Luffy...!! You're such a pal..._

From stephen's translation, chapter 331:
_Usopp: Listen Luffy, not everyone can live their life so free and without regret as you!!
I can't just leave an injured partner behind and keep going onward!!!

Luffy: That's ridiculous!! People and ships are not the same thing!!!_

Polygon

@changsho:

Food for thought. (Personally, I'm still confused.)

From stephen's translation, chapter 227:
_Usopp: Dammit.
THAT STUPID ORANGUTAN!!!
He busted up the ship even more!!!

Zoro: You wake up, and this thing is falling apart…
Time to get a new one?

Usopp: YOU SHUT THE HELL UP!!

Luffy: Hey, don't complain about it, Usopp!
The Going Merry is our good companion.
Let's try hard! And fix it up!!

Usopp: Luffy...!! You're such a pal..._

From stephen's translation, chapter 331:
_Usopp: Listen Luffy, not everyone can live their life so free and without regret as you!!
I can't just leave an injured partner behind and keep going onward!!!

Luffy: That's ridiculous!! People and ships are not the same thing!!!_

Exactly, Luffy never said the ship wasn't their nakama. He said that the ship and people are two completly different things. Meaning he knew that if they went any further with merry he would be endangering the whole crew including merry. Ussop knew this as well but didnn't want to accept this.Ussop didn't treasure the ship more than his nakama, to him it was like luffy threw away sanji because he lost the ability to cook.

hanlesky

i think the battle between them shows that luffy has good leadership quality because as a captain you must be decisive and the fight also made usopp stronger which was good

taboo

Awww, crap not this argument AGAIN. >__>

Usopp did care about the other members of the crew.

See here, I wonder if ODA PUT THIS IN HERE FOR A REASON? Considering he already had Klabautermann planned by this time, there's no reason to think that he didn't.

And let's not forget that Luffy also defended the ship as strongly as Usopp did, right up until Iceburg questioned his captaincy. That, I think, is why Luffy was so unforgiving to Usopp. "IT'S MY DECISION AND IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU CAN JUST [LEAVE]!!" Dosen't sound like the Luffy we know and love. Iceburg also reminded him that he was responsible for the entire crew's lives and that the Going Merry was just a ship.

I'd like to get this back on topic but, you know. ^^;