Chapter 621: Otohime and Tiger

TLC

@RobbyBevard:

Not only was it skipped, it was skipped last chapter AND this one. It was skipped TWICE.

I have to assume its because
a)Jimbei wasn't there to see it and this is HIS story
b)it may be a great moment but its unimportant to the current story and would slow it down for like 4 chapters to show properly
c)we'll see it properly later
d)its not being shown so that Luffy doing similar feats remains more impressive. (Same reason we'll never really see Roger in action.)

Or maybe all of the above.

Ah sorry, I meant to say I hope it won't BE skipped, I can wait till later but I want it to be shown eventually. I wanna see the whole thing in all its glory, Fisher climbing the red line, Fisher going berserk on the world nobles, Fisher freeing slaves. I like to think that the reason we didn't get a Hancock flashback is so that Oda could tell it properly without leading on anyone into thinking Hancock is next crew material. It's interesting to see that Fisher is more of a mellow dude than previously thought so I would like to see him in his batshit insane mode.

StrawHatJedi

Maybe we'll see a flashback of Tiger storming Marijora later in this arc…or when a character in the present storyline cough Luffy cough does something similar.

Also, we better see Roger in action some day! I really hope we have a flashback of Roger vs. Whitebeard.

Monkey King

@Sonic:

I think the timeskip will be over next chapter.

That would be horrendously bad pacing.

Even as bad as the pacing was this week that would be out of the question.

Robby

@NANLIT:

Monkey King, how is this going too fast?

Because its going WAY the hell too fast.

It spends 8 pages showing a single scene with the Queen, and then it rushes through the next year of crucial world changing events in a batch of text boxes… telling, not showing, characters barely even talking to each other.

This could have easily been 3 or 4 chapters of character development and setup by itself, and thats without really going into the slave breakout.

Its also really awkward that Oda started the flashback last chapter... and then flashed back even further.

Hopefully next chapter, now that he's recapped the origin of the Sunny Pirates... AGAIN... (and ended on the same cliffhanger for the third chapter straight) will resume with normal pacing and ACTUAL storytelling... its gonna suuuck if this whole thing just gets related in brief through text boxes. Very un-Oda like.

@Vongola_Boss_XI:

Maybe we'll see a flashback of Tiger storming Marijora later in this arc…or when a character in the present storyline cough Luffy cough does something similar.

Also, we better see Roger in action some day! I really hope we have a flashback of Roger vs. Whitebeard.

Since Oda's now had THREE opportunities to properly showcase the Fisher Tiger freeing of the slaves, I have to assume he's never going to properly. I guess its falling into the same category as WB and Roger…
We're never going to see them in action at the height of their powers because it would diminish Luff's accomplishments, and it would set the precedent of scale for the end of the series with the strongest guys the world has to offer.

If we see any of these things, it'll be at the very end of the series or in spinoff specials after its done.

Sniper King

Cool chapter. Otohime looks kinda odd. Maybe it's the shape of her head. Eh.
Jimbei's a hard ass and Arlong is a rebellious…25 year old.
The fat prince is so cute. xD
...Arlong trying to stop Jimbei from being cruel to unconscious humans?! Holy crap!!
Fisher Tiger's shirt: WINNING.

Mike M

it's pretty ironic to see Arlong tell Jinbe to stop being violent. These upcoming chapters are going to be interesting.

StrawHatJedi

Eh, I don't know if it'll diminish Luffy's accomplishments….after all I'd think he's going to do something bigger than anyone else to date in not only discovering Raftel / finding One Piece, but by going a step beyond what Roger was capable of in taking down the world Government.

Monkey King

Fisher Tiger needs characterization badly, for him to be the same blank slate he was at the end of last chapter is not good.
He was just there, first an orphanage boss (that whole orphanage thing was zoomed by in mere panels! Spend more time there Oda! We need to care!) then he leaves suddenly smiling and happy, and then suddenly he's a bloodsoaked rebel leader. Through text boxes.

Even Jimbei's characterization was sloppy.

Sonic Youth

Everyone! Join hands in the quest for Queen Otohimes ghost for NN!

rubia_ryu

@RobbyBevard:

Because its going WAY the hell too fast.

It spends 8 pages showing a single scene with the Queen, and then it rushes through the next year of crucial world changing events in a batch of text boxes… telling, not showing, characters barely even talking to each other.

This could have easily been 3 or 4 chapters of character development and setup by itself, and thats without really going into the slave breakout.

Its also really awkward that Oda started the flashback last chapter... and then flashed back even further.

Hopefully next chapter, now that he's recapped the origin of the Sunny Pirates... AGAIN... (and ended on the same cliffhanger for the third chapter straight) will resume with normal pacing and ACTUAL storytelling... its gonna suuuck if this whole thing just gets related in brief through text boxes. Very un-Oda like.

But, since it is Jinbe who is reciting the story, it makes sense in context. He's not one to elaborate too much, especially with this very long flashback. For the Otohime scene, though, I'd say it was lengthened out for the comic relief – not that Jinbe would recite it that detailedly.

Either that, or Oda realized how long it would take and had to redo his plans to fit the schedules with his staff. If anything, I wouldn't blame Oda. It was still a decent chapter anyway.

Edit: Does Tiger's shirt (the one with the hippo) have any hidden meanings?

Samwize78

Why do you all think the Queen's body "isn't as strong as normal people"?

StrawHatJedi

Wasn't that stated directly in the chapter?

Robo Gorilla

@Vongola_Boss_XI:

Wasn't that stated directly in the chapter?

I think he means the cause.

It's probably just some bone disease.

OneManCollectiblez

This is the flashback for the cliffhanger from last chapter. Obviously this preques flashback will be important for.the characters that will show up from the cliffhanger from the last chapter. Or else there is really no point in flashing back before tue huge cliffhanger from last chapter

Monkey King

@rubia_ryu:

But, since it is Jinbe who is reciting the story

NO HE ISN'T.

I don't even believe this ahhaha, of all the lies people believe about this series the "flashbacks are exactly what the characters are remembering/telling" one to only come out recently baffles my mind.
This isn't being internally narrated. Jimbei isn't telling a damn thing, it's Oda.

JUST like with Nojiko this is not what the characters are experiencing. It's Oda dragging us back into the past.

It's sloppy storytelling so far, there is no excuse for it let alone one based around something untrue.

For the Otohime scene, though, I'd say it was lengthened out for the comic relief – not that Jinbe would recite it that detailedly.

1. Comic relief sure as hell doesn't trump good pacing and actually important events and characterization.

2. That right there should let you know what you beleive about flashbacks is completely wrong. Do you really imagine Jimbei going "AND THEN OTOHIME SLAPPED A LITTLE KID ABOUT BOOGERS, AND THEN THIS GUY IN THE CROWD MADE A REMARK, MEANWHILE IN THE PALACE WHERE I WASN'T EVEN PRESENT THE QUEEN AND HER KIDS HAD THIS CONVERSATION."
It's absolute nonsense.

Either that, or Oda realized how long it would take and had to redo his plans to fit the schedules with his staff. If anything, I wouldn't blame Oda. It was still a decent chapter anyway.

Well..uh…that would be a reason to blame Oda, if he flubbed his pacing. Only maybe if an editor got on his ass and made him edit it down or something would it not be his fault.

Halfmetal-lich

This chapter makes me think Arlong was mostly just a bully before Fisher Tiger died, and then started killing people cause of it.

Sonic Youth

Yeah, I mean, he even wants a theme park. His most inner and beloved dream always shines like a flame in the night.

StrawHatJedi

Or…the flashback has only been going for one chapter so it's waaaaaay too quick to judge his pacing. Wait till it ends then decide whether the pacing of the flashback was decent or not. We don't know how much detail from this chapter will be further explained later.

Monkey King

@Vongola_Boss_XI:

Or…the flashback has only been going for one chapter so it's waaaaaay too quick to judge his pacing. Wait till it ends then decide whether the pacing of the flashback was decent or not. We don't know how much detail from this chapter will be further explained later.

That's advice for the start of an arc, not for a flashback. These aren't generally so long enough for having initial periods of confusing infodumps, that get one by one introduced and explored as the arc goes on. We have what….five to seven chapters?

TLC

I dunno, I didn't mind the pacing because I thought it was a quick prelude to set up the notoriety of the Sun Pirates and Otohime before Oda gets into actually developing them. If not, then yeah it sucks hard.

Mike M

We have only scratched the surface of the flashback. I can see why the Sun Pirates don't need much explanation. We've known who was mostly part of them for a while. I can see where it would be cool to see a little bit more detail into them forming, but I don't mind. I'm sure it will be more in depth on what's yet to come.

Samwize78

The pacing was fine for me, I'm just looking forward to what we're treated to next week. At the end though, when Jimbe said: "So this is the love of humans…..Queen Otohime?", was she already dead then? Because the flashback fast-forwarded a little towards the end of the chapter

smith

@Monkey:

That's advice for the start of an arc, not for a flashback. These aren't generally so long enough for having initial periods of confusing infodumps, that get one by one introduced and explored as the arc goes on. We have what….five to seven chapters?

I still think it's too early to cry "Foul". Also, just to annoy you a bit - on the third page the magazine guys have written: "Jinbei tells the past of…".

And why can't it be Jinbei talking ?

Jinbei says: Otohime was an awesome goldfish who went about slapping people.
Oda draws us Otohime slapping people.

Jinbei says: Otohime was close with her children.
Oda draws us cute family photo.

We are getting the detailed picture here, the characters of OP are getting the story version.

Monkey King

@Thousand:

I dunno, I didn't mind the pacing because I thought it was a quick prelude to set up the notoriety of the Sun Pirates and Otohime before Oda gets into actually developing them. If not, then yeah it sucks hard.

IF this is true, that would make it alright. Maybe I just feel that what he skipped through needed more? I really hope you're right.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@smith:

And why can't it be Jinbei talking ?

Jinbei says: Otohime was an awesome goldfish who went about slapping people.
Oda draws us Otohime slapping people.

Congratulations! You just agreed with me though you probably will deny that you did.

Fact is, is that the Strawhats are getting a little story, and in it's place we are actually being shown past events.

Yes they are related, but to…to suggest ridiculous things like the past events...Oda's own pacing...is in any way shape or form related to physical limitations of the story Jimbei is actually telling? Is apsurd.
What next? The flashback Oda shows is effected by Jimbei taking breaths between sentences??

m00n

Right now two things are happening. One for us and one for the characters in the manga.

Oda shows the past to us, directly without having one of his characters tell it. We never actuality see Jimbei narrating. Of course we have to assume that he does that while we are reading the flashback, because the Strawhats will know this story when we return to them. However that does not mean they are being told the same story in every detail. (How could they unless Jimbei can draw as good as Oda)

Hespia Klarerin

i found the mystery of queen otohime's weakness, why she's weaker than most people
look at shirahoshi
just look at her as a baby

that must've been a hell of a childbirth

TLC

@Monkey:

IF this is true, that would make it alright. Maybe I just feel that what he skipped through needed more? I really hope you're right.

I'm personally betting he's going to go back in time a little to show the events skipped in more detail. He REALLY needs to show Fisher Tiger scaling the red line and beating the shit out of the Nobles and freeing slaves like Hancock and everything. The fact that we BARELY got anything about him this chapter though kinda indicates we're gonna get a chapter dedicated to a closer examination of the dude. Because otherwise it would be plain lousy writing. It helps that Oda has a record of being very kooky with the time frame when it comes to flashbacks.

asm00200

lol I kind of missed the point of the pages that talked about the Fishmen district and the four Fishmen. I thought it was happening at the same time but then realized it happened before the events of the chapter.

You know, I think Fisher Tiger went to mariejoa after his visit to the Ryuuguu palace. Something must have went wrong there.

Robby

The Noland flashbacks back on Skypeia were initially affected by people telling the story. We got the fable, then we got the dialogue version from his decendent… and THEN at the end of Skypeia, we got the real full blown flashback as told by the narrator of the story and not by any one given character.

Unfortunatley, we're past the "well, here's the character physically talking about it accompanied by headshots and an occassional single panel" bit. We're into the full blown thing. It had better reeeeally slow down next week, now that the origin of the sun pirates has been set up... AGAIN. (Really, this is practically the same quick overview that Hancock gave us two years ago. there is no reason for it to be so rushed.)

I suppose its possible that Oda will go back and do a different seperate flashback for this same info later... but unless there's some major key things we just aren't supposed to know yet... its uncharacteristically sloppy of him to rush and info dump like this.

RPG KING

@Hespia:

i found the mystery of queen otohime's weakness, why she's weaker than most people
look at shirahoshi
just look at her as a baby

that must've been a hell of a childbirth

I agree fully with you. child birth is hard but birthing a giant almost killed her

Monkey King

@asm00200:

lol I kind of missed the point of the pages that talked about the Fishmen district and the four Fishmen. I thought it was happening at the same time but then realized it happened before the events of the chapter.

You know, I think Fisher Tiger went to mariejoa after his visit to the Ryuuguu palace. Something must have went wrong there.

If he was in effect in charge of the orphanage, well….I assume the Fishmen there were children of Fishmen killed or enslaved by humans.

WarshipArc

@Benjaman:

The Frog/Hippo t-shirt, I want it!!

Great chapter! But Arlong having mercy? That is just weird.

Agreed on both points.
I was shocked on how big of a dick Jinbe acted back in the day.

Urouge

Ok, the chapter:

The Usopp Pirates get their own cover! I thought they might be in with Kaya and Merry but it looks like they'll get their own next week. I love this cover series.
The flashback starts by going further backwards in time. A bit unexpected but it seemed like it was skipping a lot without it.
Queen Otohime is surprisingly strong… and surprisingly tiny and frail all at the same time. She's pretty awesome overall. I like her design too.
She's willing to break her hand to teach kids the finer points of snot management. That's the sign of a good woman.
She has good intentions and I want to root for her, but she seems a bit overly (and naively) optimistic of this process.
Otohime's and Babyhoshi's sizes are reversed! I can't imagine what bones she broke during that delivery. It's no wonder she quit having kids.
It's cool to see a mermaid be born with mantra like Aisa was. I suppose this means that a fishman could theoretically be a king's haki user, too. I hope it's not left just as a theoretical.
Ooh, the king referenced a similar failed event hundreds of years ago, and there's that giant ship again. Good thing Robin's not far away, that should be an interesting ~~plot tool~~ story.
Arlong's picking on people, and Jinbe's surprisingly uncaring about the whole thing.
Jinbe looks kinda dumb in that soldier's uniform.
Fisher Tiger, on the other hand, looks very awesome in that amazing tshirt.
So this is why Arlong was considered to be shoulder to shoulder with Jinbe (I guess Macro should count too making it a trio loool). They were like classmates who didn't necessarily like each other but all respected their teacher.
So, every person that we know on Tiger's crew was around before the incident and therefore wasn't a slave. That's very surprising.
Hachi wasn't a slave, so he could have gotten branded anywhere and chose his forehead…
So we get the same cliffhanger for the 3rd straight week (the formation of the Sun Pirates). I suppose that means it's the official "beginning" of the flashback, and this week's chapter was basically the prologue/introduction/setting for it, as it quickly summed up how they got there. I suppose that means that the first real chapter of the most anticipated flashback of the entire series comes next week. I can't wait.
I'm renewing my fanfic theory that Doflamingo is the big bad behind everything in this arc. Hopefully there on the orders of some ugly government noble bastard that interested him. A couple deaths (at least one being an assassination), possible destruction of an island, lots of racial hate, and a possible villain who can control people.

Samwize78

We need to also find out where Arlong is in the current time of the story by the end of this flashback too.

Nekketsu

It's not that hard to understand…

End of the previous chapter started with the flashback taking place 15 years in the past.

This latest chapter has told us some of the story one year prior to these events. It served to tell about the ideologies of both Tiger and Otohime as well as background from some of the most important fishmen and how those ended up joining Tiger and became the Sun pirates.

And thus, the chapter ended going back again to where we were left (one year later), with the marine vessel already annihilated by Fisher Tiger and his crew.

Robby

@Samwize78:

We need to also find out where Arlong is in the current time of the story by the end of this flashback too.

He's… in jail. We've known this for a long time.

Samwize78

Well we need to see him in jail at least.

Chopper Madness

why? what relevance to the story does that have

asm00200

@Monkey:

If he was in effect in charge of the orphanage, well….I assume the Fishmen there were children of Fishmen killed or enslaved by humans.

Are you saying that was the reason for the attack? Do you think his trip has anything to do with it? Because, why now? Why not before?

Hespia Klarerin

@GoustiFruit:

Sure, most fish (and underwater creatures) lay eggs. And most of the time there is no penetration too (I won't go into technical descriptions, DuckDuckGo is your friend)

no way, kokoro explained that mermaids can reproduce with human, so the fishman and merfolk's reproduction is Mammal-like

she actually gave birth to that giant

-shudders-

Samwize78

@Chopper:

why? what relevance to the story does that have

None really the flashback would seem completed if at the end it showed all the old Sun Pirates mentioned in their current locations.

MDL

arlong could very well by roaming free for all we know, we can't say for sure.

all it takes is for ONE guard to make ONE slip up in the 2+ years of custody, and BAM! arlong's free.
he's ruthless, so if there was even the slightest chance of escape, he'd charge toward it like a motherfucker.

Nekketsu

I think I got the meaning of Fisher Tiger's shirt.

ChesCa

Don't know if this has been covered or not, but here are my thoughts on the chapter:
Me: Yay! TigerFisher's here!
Story reveals that he freed the slaves
Me: Yea–-huh, what? We're past that part already? :blink:
Okay, maybe it's going to be covered some other time?

Jinbei: I'mma' guard you're pirate scum Arlong.
Arlong: Don't be like that bro. Oh look, Tiger Fisher's here.
Palace: He freed the slaves! What?
Jinbei: Screw this job. Let's go pirate again.
Me: Tilting head, not really sure what to make of such a rash decision

And Otohime is...Otohime. Shrugs
I don't know. I don't want to call this chapter horrible, but something just felt off to me.

Nekketsu

@Cuddles:

Jinbei: Screw this job. Let's go pirate again.

WTF bro, Jinbei was never pirate before joining Fisher Tiger.

And read the chapter again, coz I think you didn't get anything. This chapter just told us about the ideals of both Fisher Tiger and queen Otohime and how may factions and soldiers refusing to let their bro die left their former occupations and joined his crew. Pretty simple to understand.

wolfwood

@MDL:

arlong could very well by roaming free for all we know, we can't say for sure.

all it takes is for ONE guard to make ONE slip up in the 2+ years of custody, and BAM! arlong's free.
he's ruthless, so if there was even the slightest chance of escape, he'd charge toward it like a motherfucker.

Well he'd be what about a level 3-4 if i were incarcerated in ID?

So one would hope that they'd have i'm chained up enough so that he's not freed at the drop of a hat.

MDL

my bad, i should have stated that when i wrote my post i was imagining arlong in an east blue prison.
not all dangerous pirates get taken to impel down though, so it's still possible until we know for sure.

ChesCa

@Nekketsu:

WTF bro, Jinbei was never pirate before joining Fisher Tiger.

On that I'll concede. I'm just too used to thinking of Jinbei as a pirate that it slipped.

And read the chapter again, coz I think you didn't get anything. This chapter just told us about the ideals of both Fisher Tiger and queen Otohime and how may factions and soldiers refusing to let their bro die left their former occupations and joined his crew. Pretty simple to understand.

Reads Chapter Again to make double sure I know what I'm talking about
Oh, I got the Fisher Tiger and Otohime ideologies, as well as the fact that a lot of Fishmen liked Tiger enough to side with him, but if we hadn't known that Jinbei was going to be tied to him already, his decision would seem kind of shallow. No matter how much you like a person, abandoning a job guarding the palace as quick as he did with no screen time of him thinking about his decision just kind of made him look flighty more than anything.
Hell, you could have ended the chapter with Fisher Tiger delivering the news of what he did to the Holy City, spent the next chapter exploring the consequences, and THEN paint a clearer picture of why Jinbei would throw away such a good job just to take on the dangers of the high sea. We're talking about guarding the palace and the royal family here, not just another criminal from Fishman Island taking on another criminal job.
All in all, the last few pages just feel like a missed opportunity and really made the characters look a little bad. Jinbei struck me more like Jon Snow from Game of Thrones than someone with the maturity one would expect from a guard his age.
The next chapter could've even explored the Orphanage District more in depth than just some text boxes, like having the fish crew talk everything out there.

igetownd

Um, the problem is not the logic, but the social consequences of wearing clothing with Engrish and cartoons on them while attending middle school…

I find it strange that Fisher Tiger can wear that shirt and be cool nonetheless. Maybe it's his figure and face, which says "Don't mess with this Badass Mofo".

Urouge

@Cuddles:

On that I'll concede. I'm just too used to thinking of Jinbei as a pirate that it slipped.
Reads Chapter Again to make double sure I know what I'm talking about
Oh, I got the Fisher Tiger and Otohime ideologies, as well as the fact that a lot of Fishmen liked Tiger enough to side with him, but if we hadn't known that Jinbei was going to be tied to him already, his decision would seem kind of shallow. No matter how much you like a person, abandoning a job guarding the palace as quick as he did with no screen time of him thinking about his decision just kind of made him look flighty more than anything.
Hell, you could have ended the chapter with Fisher Tiger delivering the news of what he did to the Holy City, spent the next chapter exploring the consequences, and THEN paint a clearer picture of why Jinbei would throw away such a good job just to take on the dangers of the high sea. We're talking about guarding the palace and the royal family here, not just another criminal from Fishman Island taking on another criminal job.
All in all, the last few pages just feel like a missed opportunity and really made the characters look a little bad. Jinbei struck me more like Jon Snow from Game of Thrones than someone with the maturity one would expect from a guard his age.
The next chapter could've even explored the Orphanage District more in depth than just some text boxes, like having the fish crew talk everything out there.

You're upset with Jinbe for not giving his two week notice, then?

The beginning of the flashback story is when the Pirates of the Sun were formed. This chapter was just to provide a little background on how they got to that point. If Oda spent 3 chapters on it, they might not leave Fishman Island until 2015.