Bart Simpson Thread XI: The Movie - The Manga Adaption - The Animation
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Lord of the Rings's style makes much more sense once you've read some Anglo-Saxon poetry, particularly Beowulf.
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If you want something with amazing prose and a wacky "fantasy" world, i would suggest the Book of the New Sun series from Gene Wolfe.
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And the pacing…like from around book 5 to beyond. Dear god this guy got obsessed with details in his settings.
I completely agree. I just gave up on finishing the series because it was so bloated in the worst ways. Especially considering how short the time of the series actually is. (and the absurdity of the things that happen in such a short time)
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I was talking about The Warded Man by Brett. I didn't get past the first book, it was pretty plain and tried too hard to be edgy.
But now that you mention it, I do think the themes in Lord of the Rings are a bit dated. Still, it's not a bad series, even if the writing is ponderous at times. The Hobbit aged better imo.
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I'm in the beginning of A Crown of Swords right now and have been since around may.
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Well, you got that far. I never made it past the first page. The mere thought of having to go through 13 door-stoppers when the first page doesn't capture your imagination is overwhelming.
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@Cyan:
Lord of the Rings's style makes much more sense once you've read some Anglo-Saxon poetry, particularly Beowulf.
I fucking love Beowulf. Especially after having read it again a couple years ago in my college's English Lit class.
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I applaud your determination. I stopped at the 5th I think when all the female character clones all had names starting with A or E.
I didn't want to say it, but female characters are by far Jordan's biggest weakness.
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@Sen:
Well, you got that far. I never made it past the first page. The mere thought of having to go through 13 door-stoppers when the first page doesn't capture your imagination is overwhelming.
The first 3 books are amazing though. First page or chapter might not grab you, but the story gets really really good a few chapters in.
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I didn't want to say it, but female characters are by far Jordan's biggest weakness.
No shame in stating the obvious! Jordan did not do well with female characters at all. All the female characters I liked in the beginning I ended up hating.
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To be fair, when I tried to read WoT the first time, I was the type of guy who would doggedly finish a series no matter how much it'd make me want to kill myself. I finished a few anime series without subtitles just to make them more interesting. I'd be less apprehensive to start it today. (Not that I'm particularly interested.)
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@Sen:
To be fair, when I tried to read WoT the first time, I was the type of guy who would doggedly finish a series no matter how much it'd make me want to kill myself. I finished a few anime series without subtitles just to make them more interesting. I'd be less apprehensive to start it today. (Not that I'm particularly interested.)
No joke, this will be the first fantasy series I started without finishing, unless I can somehow convince myself to.
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The Mazerunner series is a very good series. The story progression, the characters, and the pace of it is quite suspenseful. The world building is sort of shaky at times, but it ultimately matches the overall theme of the series.
Imho, Mazerunner stops being interesting after Book 1. Then it just becomes really dumb. 3rd book is slightly better, but still far from being entertaining.
Playing an endlessly irritating guessing game about whether Teresa is a unfortunate puppet or just a plain manipulative asshole is not really the same "mystery" and "suspense" as the kind found in Book 1. It's disappointing.
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At one point while I was writing all of this it all got deleted and I had to type it all up again after a busy work day because "Restore Comment" gave me a giant middle finger…
Plenty of stories take characters through twists, turns, loves, losses, and developments, some of completely out of their hands or unexpected (oh, Kefka blew up the world!) and it all seems natural and like a proper progression, and those big things will shape the plot yes, and what the characters do next…. but it shouldn't singlehandedly shape the characters.
Story elements get thrown at characters, and that's the plot. How they react and change to whatever random thing a story presents, is where the character comes in.
This is a very true and extremely interesting because it makes me question whether Sasuke's responses to the "twists, turns, loves, losses, and developments" in the story have been an appropiate and natural response as demonstrated by other characters in other works and mangas. Has Sasuke's progression been a natural development or was it all just "for the sake of the plot"? I do not believe Sasuke was evil because the story simply demanded it, anymore than Vegeta was evil and then good because the story demanded it. Sasuke is just simply not the exact same person he was 3 years ago because as things changed so did his goals.
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[/hide]You believe that Sasuke is the exact same as he was before but in their previous battle you have to remember that he spared Naruto's life in the end. The fact is he wasn't turning evil just because reasons…[hide]
[/hide]He was holding on to his humanity and he eventuall slipped. Do you believe he would have spared Naruto's life if he won the current battle? Absolutely not. There are some obvious changes and developments that took this little boy bent on justified vengeance against one man and turned him into a young man that would even sever the closest thing he has to a friend to create his version of peace in this world. A young man influenced by his older brother who did something very similar for Sasuke's sake. Yes, there are plenty of similarities to the Sasuke of old and the current Sasuke. That is no surprise because it's the same person. How much did Goku or Gohan change from the beginning until the end? Yeah, they took on more responsibility as the defenders of earth but at heart they were the same people. Sasuke has taken on a measure of responsibility but he's still the moody violent guy who approaches problems with his sword first rather than diplomacy.But I think the main problem is people just believe Sasuke wakes up one day and decides to change his mind on everything which is false. Why did Sasuke want to destroy Konoha after he learned about Itachi and what he did for Konoha? Well, the Konoha government assigned his brother to commit genocide on his own clan, branded him as a traitor, and knowing all of this the elders did nothing while Sasuke grew hate like an infestation in his heart and dedicated his life to murdering his brother. I think Sasuke has some right to be peeved at the village.
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[/hide]So yeah, after Sasuke learned the truth he wanted to destroy Konoha and furthermore…that wasn't even a change of mind. At that point his brother was already dead so in fact it was just his next goal. Why did he change his mind from there though and decide to help the village then? Because before all he heard of the incident was from outsiders. He then got to hear it straight from his brother who he was now talking with on an equal basis with no lies between them and that had a HUGE sentimental impact.[hide]
[/hide]Still, even then he didn't change his mind about attacking Konoha until he talked with all the past Hokages and learned even more about the deeper feud between the Uchiha and the Senju.[hide]
[/hide]Only then did he change his mind about destroying Konoha and at that point it's not like he was in the middle of an attack and decided to stop and help rebuild the village. He hadn't even touched a hair on Konoha. Nagato's switcharoo, now that was a change of mind purely for plot purposes. Of course, we all know what happens after Sasuke is finished lending a hand to the Shinobi Alliance. Sasuke wants to become Hokage and start a "Revolution" and now he has to kill Naruto, the only man standing in his way! Was the final battle kinda forced? Yes. Was it predictable? Yes. Was it a complete change of attitude on Sasuke's part? No, not really.This is chapter 635.
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[/hide]Which happened only 8 chapters after he said this.[hide]
[/hide]Yeah, Sasuke's "Revolution" was his plan all along from the very start of him joining the war. Kishi foreshadowed Sasuke's "turn" 57 chapters (techically 65 chapters) before he said it outright. Making sure his brother and the village didn't go to waste was not switched out for "Revolution!" In Sasuke's mind, his "Revolution" was following in the steps of his brother in shouldering people's hate to ensure peace. Someone he truly thought was the embodiment of Hokage.[hide]
[/hide]It was never 'Sasuke + Naruto fighting together must mean Sasuke is a super good guy now! Oh wait, now Sasuke is fighting against Naruto he just flipped out of nowhere and turned totally evil!!!' Those were his intentions from the start. Also, It's not like Naruto defeated Kaguya all by himself and proved he was the strongest and his way was the right way. Naruto AND Sasuke used their new powers to defeat Kaguya together and they gained their powers on giving 2 separate answers to the Sage of 6 Paths.[hide]
[/hide]They were headed 2 seperate ways the entire time and in the end they came to a head. Their final clash wasn't just to settle their long feud but also to see whose answer and strength in ideals would prevail. Sasuke was convinced because even at that final moment Naruto still did not try to kill Sasuke when Sasuke sure as hell was trying to kill him, and yet Sasuke still couldn't win. As a result he gave into Naruto's guts/resolve. You could call it is sappy and you'd be right.[hide]
[/hide]The resolve bit is kind of like what happened in between Madara and Hashirama.[hide]
[/hide]Inb4 "Ha! See Kishi is trying to redeem Madara like Kishi is trying to redeem Sasuke! Similar fates!" Untrue.Anyway, when I say something like this.
http://www.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=41343&page=134&p=3317475&viewfull=1#post3317475
I'm saying it in a joking manner but with some truth behind it. There is some flip-flopping going on but that's only because as the story progresses so does Sasuke's character develop as his goals naturally change according to the situation (see first lines of post). And Naruto finally knocked some sense into him.
Everything's Eventual…
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Sasuke had character development. He developed into a shittier character.
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@Purple:
Sasuke had character development. He developed into a shittier character.
Haha.
Hey, NaruHina.
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I completely agree. I just gave up on finishing the series because it was so bloated in the worst ways. Especially considering how short the time of the series actually is. (and the absurdity of the things that happen in such a short time)
The pacign fixed itself after Jordan died and Brandon Sanderson took over. The last 3 books are pretty good and move at a good clip.
However, having re-marathoned the entire thing prior to the final book's release, man… the last books Jordan wrote were just soooo bloated. Its at its worst when it eventually spends several hundred pages just covering a single day from like 18 different viewpoints.
And yes, he had problems with female characters, which is odd given a full half the story was flat out built around them.
All in all, I'd say if you've already gotten several books into the series, its worth the slog to finish... especially now that the books are written and the middle can be read through or skimmed quickly instead of taking years... but if you've never touched the series at all, its hard to recommend even with the strong start and ending.
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So guys, what do you think was the absolute rock bottom of this manga? The lowest of all terrible low points?
For me it was the reveal of Kaguya. I literally had to double-take when I heard about her and then confirm it because I couldn't believe that Kishi could something so dumb.
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So guys, what do you think was the absolute rock bottom of this manga? The lowest of all terrible low points?
For me it was the reveal of Kaguya. I literally had to double-take when I heard about her and then confirm it because I couldn't believe that Kishi could something so dumb.
The only time when I said to myself, "God Kishi has some really lazy ass tendencies and isn't just getting less talented." Was at the end of the first night of the war when we got the silly ass death count. Basically the whole format of the war was terrible and it was terrible because he was ready to end the manga. (even if it ended up taking forever)
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Pretty much everything about Obito. From his ridiculous motive for turning evil, to his equally ridiculous redemption, he's just plain awful all around.
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"You thought Madara was the big bad, but it was I, Dio! Actually I'm not Dio but a magic talking sleeve of this one character who was introduced like ten chapters ago!"
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Pretty much everything about Obito. From his ridiculous motive for turning evil, to his equally ridiculous redemption, he's just plain awful all around.
Not to mention running around with the alias: "Tobi". I mean seriously, folks made jokes that it was Obito simply because how flipping stupidly obvious it is and then when it turned out to be Obito…well...um...yeah it's just stupid.
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@Purple:
"You thought Madara was the big bad, but it was I, Dio! Actually I'm not Dio but a magic talking sleeve of this one character who was introduced like ten chapters ago!"
you know I`m just going to say that I still can't believe that's a thing. I mean, a talking sleeve as the big bad. I will go record and that is the dumbest thing I Have ever had the displeasure to read in fiction. good lord how did kishi think that was a good idea just how
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Imho, Mazerunner stops being interesting after Book 1. Then it just becomes really dumb. 3rd book is slightly better, but still far from being entertaining.
Playing an endlessly irritating guessing game about whether Teresa is a unfortunate puppet or just a plain manipulative asshole is not really the same "mystery" and "suspense" as the kind found in Book 1. It's disappointing.
Book 1 and Book 4 are probably the best for me. Its concept was interesting.
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Not to mention running around with the alias: "Tobi". I mean seriously, folks made jokes that it was Obito simply because how flipping stupidly obvious it is and then when it turned out to be Obito…well...um...yeah it's just stupid.
I just like to pretend that Obito murdered the real Tobi sometime during the Deidara fight and took over his identity with no one the wiser.
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The lowest of the low points of this manga? Karin's entire character. It's like Kishi went out of his way to make a character made up entirely of Sakura's bad points.
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Lowest point for me. I would have to say Suigetsu, Juugo, Karin, Kaguya, and Rin.
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I finished the entire series of Wheel of Time, solid good series that, as Robby said suffers from bloat, drawn out plots, too many characters, and a strange fixation on spanking.
But damn, when it was on form though, and Sanderson really straightened it up.
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There was this time where an extremely powerful ninja put a giant ass crater in the center of Konoha and I was like, "Cool!"
Then he revived everyone he just killed in the village because of a book title and…that was a pretty freaking stupid.
On a different note.
The highest point of the series for me was definitely Orochimaru's attack on Konoha and this might seem like a strange concept now but back then the badguy that attacked the village didn't kill himself undoing all the damage he had done.
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I hated the majority of the Obito moments (and the Rin flashbacks) and the Kaguya fight. Something else that bothered me: Why did nearly all of the antagonist need to be misunderstood people with a tragic past? I mean it's good for some of them but nearly all of them had one.
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I just saw the threat title change…
...I hate you all...
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So guys, what do you think was the absolute rock bottom of this manga? The lowest of all terrible low points?
For me it was the reveal of Kaguya. I literally had to double-take when I heard about her and then confirm it because I couldn't believe that Kishi could something so dumb.
the uchiha love cancer and when naruto called obito a "cool guy"
but yeah kaguya was pretty bad too.
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I hated the majority of the Obito moments (and the Rin flashbacks) and the Kaguya fight. Something else that bothered me: Why did nearly all of the antagonist need to be misunderstood people with a tragic past? I mean it's good for some of them but nearly all of them had one.
Yeah, I think I mentioned it earlier.
This manga needed more assholes like Hidan.
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Hey now, he wasn't just any ol' "cool guy". He was the "coolest"!
Everything's Eventual…
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Hey now, he wasn't just any ol' "cool guy". He was the "coolest"!
Can't not wonder what the hell was going through Kishi's mind when forming that dialogue.
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The low point was definitely Kaguya hands down. My high point was tied between the Sasuke retrieval arc and the Pain arc
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Naruto is one of those mangas where you knew Kishi didn't plan ahead enough. Shippuden felt too different from the original. It's hard to explain since I fell out of it but hopefully someone can understand.
FMA 03> FMA Brotherhood
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Naruto is one of those mangas where you knew Kishi didn't plan ahead enough. Shippuden felt too different from the original. It's hard to explain since I fell out of it but hopefully someone can understand.
It was even more evident to someone who started with anime. Shippuuden suddenly featured a more serious soundtrack (some people called it "epic" at that time). Yes there are some good and creepy sounding songs (they were spot on with Hidan/Kakuzu arc) but it was a big difference.
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The low point was definitely Kaguya hands down. My high point was tied between the Sasuke retrieval arc and the Pain arc
If I honestly had to pick a high point, it'd be Shikamaru defeating Hidan. Cool guys walk away from explosions
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I really enjoyed Deidara vs Sasuke. Especially someone giving Sasuke trouble part. Then Kishi pulls that crap with Manda.
Sasuke is so cool, he managed to summon Manda, hypnotize it and get into it's mouth all in a matter of few seconds and despite having no chakra left.
The worst part was some people claiming Sasuke won that fight. Technically, maybe. But nope, not really. His enemy chose suicide attack, he ran. Those cancel eachother out.:ninja:
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Naruto is one of those mangas where you knew Kishi didn't plan ahead enough. Shippuden felt too different from the original. It's hard to explain since I fell out of it but hopefully someone can understand.
I never felt like it was too different. The change from part 1 to part 2 was the tonal shift that is supposed to come when a story shifts its focus from preteens to young adults. It just seems like a rapid shift because a timeskip is the instant rather than gradual transition. Contrast that with Rowling who used the entire 4th book to transition the tone of Harry Potter. I don't necessarily think one is better than the other though.
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I'm surprised more aren't picking the Zabuza arc as a high point. Many people usually refer to that as the best Naruto arc.
Everything's Eventual…
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Wasn't Deidara the one who said Sasuke had no chakra left? IIRC Sasuke didn't confirm or deny if Deidara was right was about him not having chakra, Deidara could have made a false assumption.
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@Monkey:
Wasn't Deidara the one who said Sasuke had no chakra left? IIRC Sasuke didn't confirm or deny if Deidara was right was about him not having chakra, Deidara could have made a false assumption.
Sasuke was visibly exhausted, no matter what Deidara said. Besides, even if he had some chakra left, that's not really enough to summon something like Manda. He fell to his knees after freeing himself from Deidara's clay snakes with lightning. There was nothing that implied he was faking it afterwards. He didn't even have to use that chakra that held Orochimaru's cells under control (like vs Itachi). And it was before his chakra levels started spiraling up with EMS and shit.
It was just Kishi being lazy.
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I'm surprised more aren't picking the Zabuza arc as a high point. Many people usually refer to that as the best Naruto arc.
I've never really understood this one. People calling it the "best arc" and all. It seems like calling Syrup Village the "best one piece arc". It's got moments that I love, and it has all the elements that will go on to make up the series, but there's just so little of it to love. And the characters are still establishing themselves in relation to eachother. I guess it's cool to see that happen, but for my money the Chuunin Exam that follows just has so much more to offer.
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I will chose 3 peaks…3rd vs. Oro,then Kakashi Gaiden and then Pain arc....
I have two wishes now for the last two chapters..one is seeing Kakashi without mask smiling with team 7 and the other is final panel in final chapter being a double spread showing full Konoha and Naruto's face in the hokage mountain... -
I've never really understood this one. People calling it the "best arc" and all. It seems like calling Syrup Village the "best one piece arc". It's got moments that I love, and it has all the elements that will go on to make up the series, but there's just so little of it to love. And the characters are still establishing themselves in relation to eachother. I guess it's cool to see that happen, but for my money the Chuunin Exam that follows just has so much more to offer.
I think it's a number of factors. Everyone had a part to play. Kakashi was a badass jounin level ninja and he proved it. Naruto and Sasuke improved greatly in their training and both of them fought Haku. Sakura cowered somewhere around the client they were supposed to be protecting. Cassic 'Naruto'.
It was also the first time they were out if the country so it was a bit of world building.
Zabuza and Haku made awesome villains and their tragic relationship (that of a tool and his master) made you sympathize for them.
Naruto's talk-no-jutsu was actually super effective where it really counts. On the audience.
You didn't hate the characters by that point.
I don't know, not my favorite arc either, but I really enjoyed it.
Everything's Eventual…
