Strawhats vs CP9 (who will fight?)

Yoska

Putting somebody into an ignore list is mean, a troll or not.

Adamiser_x

Yah but eventually their bound to say something of relevance….
Just skipping over their posts seems to work fine.

Polygon

@Adamiser_x:

Yah but eventually their bound to say something of relevance….
Just skipping over their posts seems to work fine.

GUTB probaley won't be on the list forever. Just until needed.It's not like I hate him.

wintergt

@Yoska:

Putting somebody into an ignore list is mean, a troll or not.

Putting someone on ignore isn't mean, it's pretty much a personal choice. Discussing it in length however is pretty mean

Ivotas

@Yoska:

Putting somebody into an ignore list is mean, a troll or not.

I think that people who are seeking attention just to bother other people very well deserve to be put on an igno list. With that you take exactly that from them which matters most: attention.

wolfwood

you know when you put it like that it sounds even meaner Ivo,

all that taking away the only thing that matters to them talk makes you sound a littlie lika an OP villan. XD

wintergt

@wolfwood:

you know when you put it like that it sounds even meaner Ivo,

all that taking away the only thing that matters to them talk makes you sound a littlie lika an OP villan. XD

I think it'd be more accurate to say that giving them attention only encourages them to continu trolling, and as such aggravates the problem. It's like if a little kid is crying because he can't get a new toy even though he got a new one the day before, his parents ignoring him so he'll stop whining isn't exactly a heinous and villainous act

wolfwood

didnt say that it was either just that phrashing made it sound that way.

wintergt

Well, Ivotas is still in his "evil Crocodile character" so it's all good :laugh:

Adamiser_x

@Ivotas:

I think that people who are seeking attention just to bother other people very well deserve to be put on an igno list. With that you take exactly that from them which matters most: attention.

Talk about ironic. In a feeble atempt to prevent this person from getting attention he now has 2-3 pages discussing soley him.

wolfwood

still what hes saying hasnt gotten any attention just the fact that hes trolling XD

and yeah jack thats gotta be it hes still in character.

wintergt

@Adamiser_x:

Talk about ironic. In a feeble atempt to prevent this person from getting attention he now has 2-3 pages discussing soley him.

We're also discussing trolling in general and how to deal with it + the moral implications of ignore lists

still what hes saying hasnt gotten any attention just the fact that hes trolling XD

Well, I've tried reasoning with him before, he just keeps making crazy theories and proclaiming them as the new gospel, and then he repeats them over and over, regardless of your arguments.

wolfwood

you make it sound so important i love that^^

but to not stray to far off topic ill add that i now honestly think that Usopp will fight the guy with the staff and try out his new battle staff.

EDIT who hasnt but still should try not to bash the guy anyhow since its against the rules.

Ivotas

Well it isnÂ´t like that. IÂ´m actually just taking my own attention away and not the attention of the entire board.

And I donÂ´t think that this is mean because we are dealing with a differnt kind of troll here. I actually even have to credit them for being very creative and charismatic. You know somebody who just walks around and insults people or puts up disgusting images will be banned pretty fast.
But in this case the kind of trolling is different because it just works if we work ourselves through the posts read it and even take our time to respond to that. ItÂ´s actually a trap and I have to credit them for getting me at first. So since theyÂ´ve did nothing wrong like insulting others or posting forbidden images they canÂ´t be banned which means they can stay here for a long time and bother the hell out of us. Therefore the only way to spoil their fun is to draw your own attention from them by putting them on your igno list. If they see that they donÂ´t bother anyone anymore then theyÂ´ll sooner or later get bored and leave.

And actually I would agree with you jack. It really isnÂ´t appropriate to discuss this in lenght over here. It was actually never my intention to start such a discussion when I made that one reply to Octogon. However I think that there are things that should be mentioned here openly. IÂ´m not blackmailing people IÂ´m just saying how it is. Those guys are trolls. Their very language indicate that they are able of constructive thinking, so itÂ´s impossible that they are too stupid to understand the replies they receive. The only logic conclusion is that they have fun bothering us. Everyone who wasted his time to talk to them knows what IÂ´m talking about. IÂ´m not offending anyone, IÂ´m just stating "facts". IÂ´m not forcing anyone to put them on their igno list. I know I have them on mine.

And with that I really hope that we can move back to the innitial discussion because even if we arenÂ´t talking with them but about them, weÂ´re wasting our precious time agian.

Adamiser_x

I agree with many of the above people in that now we should resume the original topic, not that this hasn't been fun and all. Anyway I posted this question near the begining of this side issue, so needless to say it was over looked. Here goes…

The defence technique that CP9 use that make them hard. Is that only on the outside? (like a really hard skin) cause if so Usopp won't have as a big a disanvantage as normal. He will be fighting with dials (99% sure) and the impact dial hurts you internally correct? So all he'll need to do is get one clean hit and whoever is history.

Ivotas

@Adamiser_x:

The defence technique that CP9 use that make them hard. Is that only on the outside? (like a really hard skin) cause if so Usopp won't have as a big a disanvantage as normal. He will be fighting with dials (99% sure) and the impact dial hurts you internally correct? So all he'll need to do is get one clean hit and whoever is history.

It does? I always understood it like this that impact dials absorb the impact of a strike and release it again later. Which means if a dial absorbs the energy of a strike from a huge hammer that would have caused damage on the outside, then the release of this energy would have the same effect meaning that it hits you on the outside. Just as the hammer would have done it.

changsho

Nope, see this page from volume 26.

Adamiser_x

I thought at one point it said that it attacked internally… Ah,well. Either way the question becomes whether there attack is stronger than their defence, since it will be returned to them. Also will Usopps shoulder be able to last for that long or do you think thats what hes got on the end of the staff? Imagine he uses it with a jet dial on the other side, like that one godofficer did with his punch. A reject dial with the forward power of a jet dial. Holy shit! I really doubt the staff would survive that.

Usopp's fight will probably be pretty funny. I can just see him trying to block a shigun with an impact dial and it being cracked in half. Right after he explains to his opponent how superior they are.

^^edit Ah-ha that is how I thought it worked. Will their defence technique work against that?^^
(just finished watch that in the anime...)

Buccaneer

Which is why it hurt Luffy, who's invulnerable to hits.

You know, it'd be funny if the staff never made an appearance.

changsho

@Adamiser_x:

^^edit Ah-ha that is how I thought it worked. Will their defence technique work against that?^^

I don't think so. Tekkai may provide protection for the outer body, but there's no way to train your inner organs.

Oda rocks for creating Impact and giving it to Usopp. I'm just worried he might not remember that page from volume 26 ^^;

Ivotas

@ changsho: Well then IÂ´m curious what you say about this pages from when Gan Forr elaborates how a dial works which would be exactly as I described it.

@Buccaneer:

Which is why it hurt Luffy, who's invulnerable to hits.

Since when did Luffy became invulnerable to hits. Whenever one of his enemies struck him with his fists or feet it already made an impact on him. They maybe werenÂ´t enough to take him down but it doesnÂ´t mean that he was invulnerable to them. It just like saying that Zoro is invulnerable to cuts. He getÂ´s cut all the time but it never is enough to take him down.

Besides if Luffy would be invulnerable to hits, would he bleed then after he got beat up by Bellamy? He wasnÂ´t using any weapon against him. And IÂ´m sure that the kick Kuro gave Luffy made an impact on him too, not to mention the stomp Drogy gave him.

His DF powers make him take much more then the average human but it doesnÂ´t mean that hits donÂ´t hurt him. An impact dial is not different here.

Adamiser_x

@Changsho. His reindroduction of dials during Usopp's fight with Luffy shows that he definitly did not forget. But still a shigun could easily break a dial right?

Also since Usopp now has this distinct advantage I wouldn't be surprised to see him fight the second or third top person. Sanji will, I think, be facing Blueno be cause he has to prove he can break Tekkai. (yes final some new moves from Sanji. With the exception of the knife ones…)

@Inotas. You were a few pages off but he still doesn't explain how they work. Sanji only blows up the barrel. And even then it's not like he put a hole in it, rather he blew the whole thing up, almost as if the damage was being dealt on the inside causing the barrel to explode out wards.

However even if I'm wrong an impact dial is stronger than sanji's kick no? and if sanji almost broke Tekkai.... plus I think he might have some rejects up his sleeve, in case the fight gets dirty.

edit yet again I agree with you on the Luffy count. Luffy takes tons of damage he just seems to have not working pain reseptors (is it will or can he just not comprehent pain, stupidity that is?)
Luffy takes tons of pain but he just sticks his chest out with a DON!

Buccaneer

@Ivotas:

@ changsho: Well then IÂ´m curious what you say about this pages from when Gan Forr elaborates how a dial works which would be exactly as I described it.

Since when did Luffy became invulnerable to hits. Whenever one of his enemies struck him with his fists or feet it already made an impact on him. They maybe werenÂ´t enough to take him down but it doesnÂ´t mean that he was invulnerable to them. It just like saying that Zoro is invulnerable to cuts. He getÂ´s cut all the time but it never is enough to take him down.

Besides if Luffy would be invulnerable to hits, would he bleed then after he got beat up by Bellamy? He wasnÂ´t using any weapon against him. And IÂ´m sure that the kick Kuro gave Luffy made an impact on him too, not to mention the stomp Drogy gave him.

His DF powers make him take much more then the average human but it doesnÂ´t mean that hits donÂ´t hurt him. An impact dial is not different here.

Beginning of the series, Luffy gets hit by Alvida and says it won't work.

Luffy can feel them, but he isn't affected. A blow to the neck or stomach would take his breath, but you can pound his face all day and not knock him out. If you could, then a large amount of bullets would harm him as well.

1. When Kuro kicks him, he makes it a point to say his lip is cut.

2. Bellamy and co. were knocking him through glass and wood.

Ivotas

Well I take that if something absorbs a strike and releases it then it is actually the same just that it has been contained. ThereÂ´s no mention of it to be transformed. Besides if it would cause damage from the inside then actually all the hit characters would actually have the part of their body that has been struck blown up instead of pressed together like when something hits them from the outside.

But thereÂ´s no use in discussing this because we have to go with what Oda tells us. And since I never trust the scanslations that much I go with stephenÂ´s scripts just as always. However this time my english is not good enough to understand the meaning behind what the words. In stephenÂ´s translation of chapter 246 Satori says: "It's not a blow… "IMPACT"!!! The shock destroys your body from the "frame"!!!"

Well if "from the frame" means from the same as from the inside, then I have to problem accepting it. I just didnÂ´t go by it so far because I donÂ´t trust those scanslations any further then I can throw them.

Polygon

@Buccaneer:

Beginning of the series, Luffy gets hit by Alvida and says it won't work.

Luffy can feel them, but he isn't affected. A blow to the neck or stomach would take his breath, but you can pound his face all day and not knock him out. If you could, then a large amount of bullets would harm him as well.

1. When Kuro kicks him, he makes it a point to say his lip is cut.

2. Bellamy and co. were knocking him through glass and wood.

You're saying he is invunrable to pain? That cannot be the case.

Buccaneer

Oh, yeah. I checked stephen's too just to be sure. XD

And yeah, that's what I'm saying. Luffy kinda….said it himself.

EDIT: Argh, not pain, but hits. He can feel just fine it seems, but his body doesn't take damage from direct impacts because of its rubber properties.

Ivotas

@Buccaneer:

Beginning of the series, Luffy gets hit by Alvida and says it won't work.

Oh come on, this is Alvida we are talking about. Of course the first opponent he faces wonÂ´t be able to even scratch him. The harder the opponents get the stronger the impact of their strikes.
The fact that Dory stomp had an effect on him proves that. It is just that it has to be a very strong strike to take him down as much as his own strikes must be very strong and fast if he wants to hurt somebody with his rubber fists.

Luffy said it himself before he even knew what Shichibukai, Marine Admirals and Cipher Pol agents were. He definitely knows by now that he can get hurt by strikes if the opponent is strong enough.

Buccaneer

He popped right back up from the stomp Dorry put on him during their fight.

Polygon

@Buccaneer:

EDIT: Argh, not pain, but hits. He can feel just fine it seems, but his body doesn't take damage from direct impacts because of its rubber properties.

I'm sorry Buc but that wouldn't fit right. If that has been true then I really have no reason to watch one piece. If he can't feel pain then these past fight would have no meaning.

warp

so wait luffy bleeds but doesnt feel pain unless sharp objects and stuff.

wolfwood

im with Buc on this one,

and to add to the "proof"(i cant think of a better word) that Buc has given ill add this from the very first chap of OP
-what an intresting body seems like Punches and kicks wont do any harm to him.

since its been said in the manga and it has been said so many times on a many diffrent occasions i dont see any reason for me to doubt it.

wintergt

They also hit him with swords (sharp objects) which broke in half.. the validity of that first arc is kinda hazy..

Oh and I think Luffy really does feel pain when he gets bludgeoned, and it could potentially wear him down, but he's just very resilient against it.

Buccaneer

Argh, different things here.

Octogon, I don't deny that he feels pain. I said he does, but BLUNT HITS have no toll on his body. For a normal man, being smashed in the head is fatal not because of the overwhelming pain, but because of the damage it causes internally. Once the skull and brain are ruptured, you're pretty much done for. However, Luffy is basically rubber, so his skull bend and shift, and not break. Same with his brain, logically.

wolfwood

@jackvance:

They also hit him with swords (sharp objects) which broke in half.. the validity of that first arc is kinda hazy..

Oh and I think Luffy really does feel pain when he gets bludgeoned, and it could potentially wear him down, but he's just very resilient against it.

uh what ?
who stabs luffy in the first chap, none of higumas guys does that,
but he does stab himself in the begining if thats what your refering to.

Ivotas

IÂ´m still waiting for someone to answer my question on what it means when someone says "from the frame" is it the same meaning as "from the inside" or not? That info would be really helpful because I have no idea on how to understand that sentence.

And IÂ´ll stay with Octogon on this one. If Luffy doesnÂ´t feel pain then it would really appear dull to me. If it works for you then so be it, but I consider it dull. And even if he stood up after Dory stomped him, he looked a bit worked out. Just remember that he wasnÂ´t stomping him through solid rock but through grass and earth and it that was enough to make him look a bit worn out.

And just as I said if he isnÂ´t able to feel pain with his rubber body, then he shouldnÂ´t be able to do damage with his rubber body. It either works both ways or none. If a rubber fist can hurt a normal human then it should also work vice versa. It all depends on the strenght of the hit.

wintergt

@Buccaneer:

Octogon, I don't deny that he feels pain. I said he does, but BLUNT HITS have no toll on his body. For a normal man, being smashed in the head is fatal not because of the overwhelming pain, but because of the damage it causes internally. Once the skull and brain are ruptured, you're pretty much done for. However, Luffy is basically rubber, so his skull bend shift, and not bend. Same with his brain, logically.

We're treading on thin ice here.. and this pertains to the whole pseudo-realism Oda uses. I mean, Luffy has blood. And what are his internal organs made of? Are they all rubber, or is it just his outer skin? And what about his brain, is it rubber too? Logically, he still has to have synapses and electrical signals coursing through his brain, whatever it may be made of. So blows to the head, even with blunt weapons, can cause internal damage. Same with the rest of his internal body.. since he definately has blood running through his veins, and the signals through his body have to be transmitted through electrical pulses, they can also be damaged. And his bones have to be made of rubber too, or he couldn't stretch the way he did.. but that makes it hard to imagine that he can even stand upright. So to make a long story short.. yeah, it's whatever Oda wants, because Luffy's body doesn't make much physical sense.

And I personally subscribe to the theory, like I said before, that he does take damage from blunt hits, he has so far simply never sustained enough to really be brought down.

who stabs luffy in the first chap, none of higumas guys does that,

It's in the first ep of the anime, I think around chapter 3 of the manga or so, right after Luffy jumps out of the barrel.

what it means when someone says "from the frame" is it the same meaning as "from the inside" or not?

The frame is definately the outside..

wolfwood

i dont mean that he doesnt feel pain either,

i think Buc summed it up pretty nicely in his latest post.

Buccaneer

He'd be able to stand upright if the rubber is as thick as his body. Like you said, if only his skin was rubber, he wouldn't be able to stretch the way he does.

And Ivotas, that line is a little vague for me. I combine it with the scanlation line is because it seems that they have the same general message, as things translated by two different people would.

wolfwood

well thats kinda useless to discuss since Odas world has its own rules,

if you think like that and try to make sense of the OP chars physology then the existence of logias must drive you crazy how can you live when your brain turns into sand XD

Adamiser_x

@Ivotas:

IÂ´m still waiting for someone to answer my question on what it means when someone says "from the frame" is it the same meaning as "from the inside" or not? That info would be really helpful because I have no idea on how to understand that sentence.
.

I think we will nee to wait for stephan or oceanizer or someother japanesse litreate person to explain this to use. When I hear frame I think ribs, spine etc so i dont know….

AS for pain I have no doubt that he feels it but just pushes past. The blows do however effect as can be seen in EVER SINGLE fight thus far. (okay maybe not all)

Polygon

**This is how I see it….

Blut hits affect luffy like they would any other man. Perhaps he feels just a tiny bit less pain than someone of his strengh, but he odes feel pain. So perhaps he doesn't feel as much pain as another man of his power would but fells it nontheless.

EDIT: Now that I think about it Daz bones was steel but when zoro hit him he stll felt the pain and flew back.**

wintergt

@Buccaneer:

He'd be able to stand upright if the rubber is as thick as his body. Like you said, if only his skin was rubber, he wouldn't be able to stretch the way he does.

But there's a very good evolutionary reason why we have bones. If Luffy's bones are really made of thick rubber, then either it's really really thick, almost bone-like (which doesn't rhyme well with the stretching) or it's flexible, which means any sort of pressure applied to his body will trip him over.

I mean, the human body is pretty much the best thing nature could come up with.. if rubber insides were to make us invulnerable to blows, you can be sure we'd all be rubber men right now.

if you think like that and try to make sense of the OP chars physology then the existence of logias must drive you crazy how can you live when your brain turns into sand XD

That's kinda my point. You can't deduce that he takes no damage from his physiology since it doesn't make sense anyway. But we do know that Luffy feels pains.. and pain is basically a body's warning that damage has been done. So yeah, he takes damage. He's just very resilient to it. Look at what Zoro can sustain with his human body.. you don't need a rubber body to be near invulnerable in the One Piece world

Ivotas

Ah ok, now I get what you and Buc mean. Well I actually mean almost the same thing just that I explained it from the opposite angle.

But this brings us back to the innitial discussion about the impact dials. They do hurt him like strong punches and kicks. ThatÂ´s the reason why he was able to take much more then Usopp or Sanji.

Besides even if the dials would hurt people from the inside (what I still donÂ´t believe until finally somebody answers my question about that one statement) then I ask isnÂ´t LuffyÂ´s inside also rubber. I mean when he stretches his arm is it then only stretched on the outside but not on the inside? Of course not, so the impact dial doesnÂ´t make much of a difference if it hurts from the in or outside because both of them are rubber for Luffy.

Therefore the usage of Luffy as an example doesnÂ´t work actually for that dial discussion. It all actually comes down to a proper translation of SatoriÂ´s original statement. I have no problem accepting it if impact dials hurt from the inside, I just want to hear it from a reliable source and not from the guys who named Bellamy the Hyena "Dachshund Binami".

Adamiser_x

The original discussion isn't about impact on Luffy its about impact against Tekkai. Your definitly right that they hurt Luffy but wheter internal or external Luffy has gotten used to pain. CP9 seems to rely heavly on Tekkai as the only means of defence (other than dodging). There resistance to pain without that is probably pathetic, I mean check out Blueno's face when he's kicked. An internal hit would de even more. thats the only reason i asked.

GUTB

Hmm. CP9 members are 6-form masters, abilities which required extreme training ever since a young age. I would say each of them are very used to pain. But that doesn't mean they can stand up to what high-level pirate fighters are capable of dishing out.

The thing with the 6 forms is that you are covered every way in combat. That means if a CP9 is facing an enemy that break their Tekai (Sanji, Zoro, Luffy), they can use Kame to dodge the attacks instead, and vice versa for other kinds of opponents. If an opponent is stronger than them up close, they can hang back with air techniques. They have all the bases covered.

But, with that being said, a DF ability is still > martial arts. It doesn't matter how many technqiues they have if go up against a logia user, they are owned, plain and simple. So Crocodile, Ace, Smoker, Aikoji, etc, could own the entire CP9 at once.

Adamiser_x

^at one point they were probably incredibly used to pain but once you start relying on some other thechneque that pain-defence starts to go away. If the CP9 have been using Tekkai for many years i really doubt (although im definetly not positive) they have actually felt pain in quite some time.

maybe

luffy vs blueno n lucchi
zoro vs kumadori
sanji vs jyabura
chopper vs fukurou
nami vs calipha
usoop vs kaku ( long nose)
robin n franky vs spandam not fight cp9

Ivotas

Well the question is whether or not the inside of the Rokushiki users also gets hard when they use Tekkai or not. If Tekkai is just an outside thing then the Impact Dials can make damage if they realease the energy on the inside. If Tekkai is an in and out thing then the dial wont do much unless of course it releases a super strong impact energy.

ron_8

i hope sogeking has a secret dial tho,
maybe he salvaged the reject dial hehe

Ivotas

Well there must be a huge lot of dials we didnÂ´t see so far. He had a large bag full of dials with him when they left Skypiea and we almost didnÂ´t see nothing of them. So it would only make sense if we get surprised every here and then with a couple of new dials. At least I hope for it.