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    Theories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread v.2

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    • G
      gyuukarubi @Ghidorah Guy
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      **Why does Zoro hate Sanji?**Fans tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I think there's actually a reason in the manga why the two don't get along. (Click on the links for relevant content.)

      Go back to Sanji's introduction on the Baratie. Zoro actually doesn't give two shits about Sanji; he's fine with him letting him be. However, something interesting happens once the threat of Mihawk and the Grand Line rear their head: Sanji shits all over Zoro's dream.

      This is the earliest instance of friction I can find and, to be honest, it makes sense. Sanji is essentially pulling a Bellamy here. Despite his dreams of wanting to find the All Blue and being Invisible, Sanji has never dedicated himself wholeheartedly to a task. He lacks true ambition. Zoro finds this weak.

      Moreover, Sanji continues to be a liability to the Straw Hats in the New World. He nearly dies against Vergo and Doflamingo and puts the crew in compromising situations almost constantly. Instead of learning from Ivankov on Kamabakka and building a resistance to his weakness towards women, Sanji arguably got worse and spent two years fucking off instead of developing (though we have yet to see the effects of Sanji's Attack Cooking on Big Mom during the climax of Whole Cake Island).

      And while Sanji dislikes Zoro, it's clear it's only because of his ego. He hates the idea of being inferior to Zoro. However, Sanji cannot, for the life of him, understand Zoro's ambition. So really, the cook's whole thing is just a pissing contest to prove he's just as good as the swordsman. But when Zoro makes a vow, he means it. He'll swallow his pride for the crew.

      Sanji, therefore, needs to swallow his pride and use what he's learned if he wants to help Luffy become Pirate King. Zoro may have already achieved his goal of defeating Mihawk over those two years, as the only Straw Hat who came face to face with his dream on multiple occasions. Until Sanji does that, he will remain a liability.

      RomanceDawn SuburbanErrorist 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • wolfwood
        wolfwood
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        Neither of them hated the other.

        There is mutual respect.

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        • RomanceDawn
          RomanceDawn @gyuukarubi
          @gyuukarubi last edited by
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          @gyuukarubi:

          **Why does Zoro hate Sanji?**Fans tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I think there's actually a reason in the manga why the two don't get along. (Click on the links for relevant content.)

          Go back to Sanji's introduction on the Baratie. Zoro actually doesn't give two shits about Sanji; he's fine with him letting him be. However, something interesting happens once the threat of Mihawk and the Grand Line rear their head: Sanji shits all over Zoro's dream.

          This is the earliest instance of friction I can find and, to be honest, it makes sense. Sanji is essentially pulling a Bellamy here. Despite his dreams of wanting to find the All Blue and being Invisible, Sanji has never dedicated himself wholeheartedly to a task. He lacks true ambition. Zoro finds this weak.

          Moreover, Sanji continues to be a liability to the Straw Hats in the New World. He nearly dies against Vergo and Doflamingo and puts the crew in compromising situations almost constantly. Instead of learning from Ivankov on Kamabakka and building a resistance to his weakness towards women, Sanji arguably got worse and spent two years fucking off instead of developing (though we have yet to see the effects of Sanji's Attack Cooking on Big Mom during the climax of Whole Cake Island).

          And while Sanji dislikes Zoro, it's clear it's only because of his ego. He hates the idea of being inferior to Zoro. However, Sanji cannot, for the life of him, understand Zoro's ambition. So really, the cook's whole thing is just a pissing contest to prove he's just as good as the swordsman. But when Zoro makes a vow, he means it. He'll swallow his pride for the crew.

          Sanji, therefore, needs to swallow his pride and use what he's learned if he wants to help Luffy become Pirate King. Zoro may have already achieved his goal of defeating Mihawk over those two years, as the only Straw Hat who came face to face with his dream on multiple occasions. Until Sanji does that, he will remain a liability.

          I can't tell if you're joking or serious. Sanji was ready to die so Zoro could continue his dream, he stated it outright. There is so much mutual respect between the two of them it's a full on bromance in disguise. You are a crooked jerky jockey and you drive crooked hoss. 0/10 won't read from you again.

          But on the subject I like how Oda more or less retrofit the idea that Sanji subconsciously hates guys who do nothing but train all day.

          Folks who read One Piece… Just better people. ¯\(ツ)/¯

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            gyuukarubi @RomanceDawn
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            @RomanceDawn:

            I can't tell if you're joking or serious. Sanji was ready to die so Zoro could continue his dream, he stated it outright. There is so much mutual respect between the two of them it's a full on bromance in disguise. You are a crooked jerky jockey and you drive crooked hoss. 0/10 won't read from you again.

            Uh. Ok.

            I think Sanji has a self-sacrificial streak throughout the manga. He was also ready to die at the hands of Pudding. What about his dreams? Why are Zoro's dreams more important than his own?

            Maybe "hate" is a strong word, but I mostly mean "dislike." Sanji isn't living up to his potential.

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            • Cockycent
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              I have 13 siblings. Sanji and Zoro are in the top 3 depictions of siblings in manga for me.

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              • Jazzy Jinx
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                Had a little thought about Doffy's "Throne Wars" speech recently. What if what Doffy was referring to wasn't the war to determine the Pirate King but instead the war to see who controls the entire world? I found it odd that he mentioned the marines and Revos who have no stake in the Pirate King title. When he mentions there is an "empty throne" what if he's in fact referring to THE Empty Throne (Im's throne)? And is instead implying that whoever discovers Raftel and the True History and fulfills the Will of D (more than likely the descendants of the Ancient Kingdom from the Void Century) they'll then wage a "Throne War" against the World Government (Throne of the Pirate King/Inheitor of the Will of D Throne vs Empty Throne/Im-sama). Therefore, the Celestial Dragons will be "dragged down".

                With the recent revelation of Rox and his ambition to rule the world… It could be that those of the D. clan are the true heirs to the world and thus have a right to the throne of the world. That's why evil D's like Rox and Teach are so eager for that type of world conquest. They both study history and are familiar with the world's taboos and probably know that the D's are the true heirs. Eh... Just some food for thought.

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                • Cockycent
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                  No theories, just ramblings of things to question as I try to piece certain parts of what Oda has given us so far.

                  Rocky Port incident involved Koby and Law. Koby and Law reached Rear Admiral and Warlord exactly when during the timeskip? When did Koby become SWORD? Law has some sort of confidence in Drake. Koby is Drake's subordinate in this SWORD group. Does Law confidence in Drake stem from the Rocky Port Incident?

                  BM was too conveniently brought into Wano and separated from her crew. Luffy had a similar situation. The octopi was really trying to get Luffy and he is dressed similarly to other octopi that work for the bathhouse. Who runs the bathhouse and do they have an agenda? Yes, I question stuff like this too.

                  Shusui was the sword of a Wano hero. Now Zoro has replaced it with the sword of another Wano great, Oden. Sandai Kitetsu hasn't brought that much bad luck to Zoro. Zoro has shown that he is up for challenges. Nidai had Luffy end up in Udon and he became more fortunate when he wasn't with the sword. Is Nidai, Zoro's next challenge? Will this next act explore cursed swords, like examples of former user's fate?

                  Were Neko and Inu on Roger's ship for this God Valley Incident?

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                  • desa
                    desa @Cockycent
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                    @Cockycent:

                    Rocky Port incident involved Koby and Law. Koby and Law reached Rear Admiral and Warlord exactly when during the timeskip? When did Koby become SWORD? Law has some sort of confidence in Drake. Koby is Drake's subordinate in this SWORD group. Does Law confidence in Drake stem from the Rocky Port Incident?

                    I think it was a Kaido related event. Like Law destroying a shipment from Doffly to Kaido or gathering intel. Koby was the intervening officer and Drake saved him breaking his cover and probably recruited him to sword.

                    Were Neko and Inu on Roger's ship for this God Valley Incident?

                    Unlikely. Neko and Inu were with Oden and Roger got Oden from Whitebeard crew so probably much later.

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                      gyuukarubi @Cockycent
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                      @Cockycent:

                      I have 13 siblings. Sanji and Zoro are in the top 3 depictions of siblings in manga for me.

                      Oda got the friction right; I’m merely explaining the rationale. Zoro doesn’t get along with Sanji because the cook never takes the steps required to achieve his dreams and had the gall to criticize the swordsman for following his own. This interaction from Fishman Island is a good example of that.

                      Sanji is kind but I think he hates himself as a result of his childhood trauma (hence him seeking validation from women, to prove his own worth). He doesn’t care enough about himself so how could he ever put his friends first? He fears enemies he feels he cannot defeat and tends to run while telling others to abandon all hope. Not saying that this is going to be a permanent fixture of his personality, but he will be required to acknowledge and overcome his weaknesses to help Luffy become Pirate King.

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                      • Don Quichotte De Flamingo
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                        I think Luffy`s final bounty will be 5.656.000.000 Berry.
                        Barely eclipsing Gold Roger, while also having the gomu gomu number joke^^

                        Unrevealed_Loki/Rocks/Im-san_

                        IslandElbaf/Raftel/GodValley

                        UnresolvedWeevil´s plan/Explaining DFs/Deal with Kuma-Bonney´s past/Joy-Boy/Zunisha´s story/Rocks flashback/Void Century/Rioponeglyph/Uranus/the D.clan

                        DFWind/Metal/Acid/Liquid/Time-Stop

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                          Ghidorah Guy
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                          Dr. Hililuk accidentally created chemical weapons such as the Dance Powder while fabricating all kinda concoctions back in the days he not only engaged in thievery…but peddled wares as a snake-oil salesman similar to Usopp's current guise in Wano.

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                          • Kylor
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                            So I had this theory like two years ago, never got around to mentioning it, but thought it would be worth bringing up now. It has some shades of theories already brought up in this thread, but (from what I've seen, though I've only skimmed lightly) my version has a few differences that I think are worth mentioning as its own thing. But, basically…

                            The alliance between Big Mom and Kaido isn't the only alliance between Emperors right now. Shanks and Blackbeard are also allies, or at least working towards the same goal.

                            We know very little about either of them, but across the board, two things have remained consistent. The first is that they both are very occupied with fate, or seem to be convinced that events are happening on a preset path and any aberrations from that path are to be avoided. Blackbeard's comments on fate are well documented, but also note many of Shanks' more cryptic words, like how it was "too soon" for Ace and Blackbeard to fight, which are weirdly similar to some of Blackbeard's lines. The second similarity is how much they go out of their way to avoid actually fighting or meeting each other. Shanks cautions Whitebeard to avoid any confrontation with Blackbeard whatsoever, meanwhile his arrival at Marineford feels almost deliberately timed to give Blackbeard an easy opening to escape after all his objectives have already been met. With so much about the two unknown, apart from the fact that they share a history (we know that Blackbeard gave Shanks his scar but nothing else) it's entirely within the realm of possibility that they've been collaborating behind the scenes, orchestrating Blackbeard's rise to power, in order to fulfill a prophecy they both believe in.

                            I think that they both want to see a full return of the Ancient Kingdom and/or the Clan of D, perhaps following the same vision that Rocks had, and the key to doing that is on Laugh Tale. But, there's a price to pay for getting there, and that only a D is able to pay it. (remember that basically anyone in a position to go to Laugh Tale or who might know what the One Piece is, doesn't want it) Or, perhaps, the Prophecy dictates that all D's except one need to be killed off before one single carrier of the Will of D is left to inherit the world on his own. Blackbeard obviously sees himself as the one to do this, but can't achieve his dream without also suffering the price. The solution? Build up a sacrificial D, give him the hat of destiny and enough motivation to plunge ahead on his goal, do the minimum to nudge him along the right track, wait for him to open the path to Laugh Tale, not knowing the terrible consequence or the prophecy... and then swoop in and take the prize once the conditions are met and the price is already paid.

                            The thing is, while Blackbeard clearly sees the One Piece and the title of Pirate King/King of the World as his right by fate and wants it for his own gain, Shanks might genuinely think that the ultimate goal of bringing back the Ancient Kingdom is for the greater good, and would be alright with Luffy somehow subverting their design, so long as he still fulfills the conditions of the prophecy instead.

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                            • RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths
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                              Not exactly a theory but what do you think of the idea of Vegapunk inventing an anti-haki/Haki-nullification mechanism which he can implement on the Pacifistas and/or other creations? I'm speaking generally and not referring to SSG

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                              • Cockycent
                                Cockycent @RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths
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                                @RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths:

                                Not exactly a theory but what do you think of the idea of Vegapunk inventing an anti-haki/Haki-nullification mechanism which he can implement on the Pacifistas and/or other creations? I'm speaking generally and not referring to SSG

                                I don't think this would be Haki nullification, but in the Frequency theory, I hypothetically stated that Chopper's experimentation with the wavelengths of his DF, Teach taking WB's DF, Brook's ability, Haki and Kairoseki are all connected through frequency.

                                If you care…

                                http://forums.arlongpark.net/showthread.php?t=32320&page=609&p=3988701&viewfull=1#post3988701

                                It has pictures and looks cooler on the other site

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                                • RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths
                                  RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths @Cockycent
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                                  Very interesting. I've read similar theories before , the best example being CAMUNAI's on Orojackson. That theory was mindblowing, at least for how detailed it was. A shame it was lost along with the site

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                                  • Cockycent
                                    Cockycent @RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths
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                                    @RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths:

                                    Very interesting. I've read similar theories before , the best example being CAMUNAI's on Orojackson. That theory was mindblowing, at least for how detailed it was. A shame it was lost along with the site

                                    I talked to Camu about it on Joy Boy's Discord. Yeah, they are similar. Mines was made 2 years ago, but he had no idea bout it.

                                    What I don't see being questioned is if any of the CD's slaves became anything or can become crucial in the story. Maybe they can give more insight into the God Valey incident. It's understandable because there's nothing to go off of, but i've seen people make a spectacle out of less. Also, Shanks, Buggy and Teach are around the same age. Maybe, they grew up hearing of that incident even tho it was covered up by the WG

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                                      Erkan12 @Cockycent
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                                      @gyuukarubi:

                                      Uh. Ok.

                                      I think Sanji has a self-sacrificial streak throughout the manga. He was also ready to die at the hands of Pudding. What about his dreams? Why are Zoro's dreams more important than his own?

                                      Maybe "hate" is a strong word, but I mostly mean "dislike." Sanji isn't living up to his potential.

                                      That alone proves that Sanji cares about Zoro just like he cares about his other crewmates. He also sacrificed himself for Usopp in front of Enel. Sanji is a chivalry, he does that.

                                      Sanji vs. Zoro rivalry started when Zoro tried to attack Nami at East Blue when Zoro thought that Nami betrayed them, and Sanji stopped Zoro by attacking him first. That was their first argument and their first fight. Similar to his little fight with Niiji after their Vinsmoke family reunion.

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                                      • SuburbanErrorist
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                                        I don't know if it's just me thinking this up, but isn't it really obvious that the prophecy of Luffy destroying Fishman island will come true in the sense that the Fishmen will be able to live on the surface and the Noah is the ship that is going to carry them there?

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                                        • Nilitch
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                                          I'm pretty sure that's what everyone thought when they were reading the FI arc

                                          Every nation gets the government it deserves.–-- Joseph de Maistre

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                                          • SuburbanErrorist
                                            SuburbanErrorist @gyuukarubi
                                            @gyuukarubi last edited by
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                                            @gyuukarubi:

                                            **Why does Zoro hate Sanji?**Fans tend to give them the benefit of the doubt, but I think there's actually a reason in the manga why the two don't get along. (Click on the links for relevant content.)

                                            Go back to Sanji's introduction on the Baratie. Zoro actually doesn't give two shits about Sanji; he's fine with him letting him be. However, something interesting happens once the threat of Mihawk and the Grand Line rear their head: Sanji shits all over Zoro's dream.

                                            This is the earliest instance of friction I can find and, to be honest, it makes sense. Sanji is essentially pulling a Bellamy here. Despite his dreams of wanting to find the All Blue and being Invisible, Sanji has never dedicated himself wholeheartedly to a task. He lacks true ambition. Zoro finds this weak.

                                            Moreover, Sanji continues to be a liability to the Straw Hats in the New World. He nearly dies against Vergo and Doflamingo and puts the crew in compromising situations almost constantly. Instead of learning from Ivankov on Kamabakka and building a resistance to his weakness towards women, Sanji arguably got worse and spent two years fucking off instead of developing (though we have yet to see the effects of Sanji's Attack Cooking on Big Mom during the climax of Whole Cake Island).

                                            And while Sanji dislikes Zoro, it's clear it's only because of his ego. He hates the idea of being inferior to Zoro. However, Sanji cannot, for the life of him, understand Zoro's ambition. So really, the cook's whole thing is just a pissing contest to prove he's just as good as the swordsman. But when Zoro makes a vow, he means it. He'll swallow his pride for the crew.

                                            Sanji, therefore, needs to swallow his pride and use what he's learned if he wants to help Luffy become Pirate King. Zoro may have already achieved his goal of defeating Mihawk over those two years, as the only Straw Hat who came face to face with his dream on multiple occasions. Until Sanji does that, he will remain a liability.

                                            I truly think that Sanji actually knows a lot of Newkama Kenpo but has too much pride to display it.

                                            –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                            @Don:

                                            I think Luffy`s final bounty will be 5.656.000.000 Berry.
                                            Barely eclipsing Gold Roger, while also having the gomu gomu number joke^^

                                            This is actually one of the best theories I've heard. You are probably spot-on.

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                                            • SuburbanErrorist
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                                              Another reason as to why Carrot is the traitor:

                                              !

                                              Why is Carrot stated as one of the most important characters in the the volume when she has barely had any screen-time and not really have any connections in Wano?

                                              Also, she was there when the symbols and message and all the plans were explained. Then the Strawhats ship is leaked? Come on now

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                                                gyuukarubi @SuburbanErrorist
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                                                @SuburbanErrorist:

                                                I truly think that Sanji actually knows a lot of Newkama Kenpo but has too much pride to display it.

                                                My hunch is that you’re probably right on the money with this. It’ll happen when Sanji starts showing more personal growth.

                                                @Erkan12:

                                                That alone proves that Sanji cares about Zoro just like he cares about his other crewmates. He also sacrificed himself for Usopp in front of Enel. Sanji is a chivalry, he does that.

                                                I think the difference between Zoro and Sanji is illustrated by the DON moment. Zoro clearly does not intend to die and has the willpower to survive. Sanji almost always gives up in hopeless situations. He surely would have died if he took on Luffy’s pain at that moment.

                                                @Erkan12:

                                                Sanji vs. Zoro rivalry started when Zoro tried to attack Nami at East Blue when Zoro thought that Nami betrayed them, and Sanji stopped Zoro by attacking him first. That was their first argument and their first fight. Similar to his little fight with Niiji after their Vinsmoke family reunion.

                                                Nice detail. You’re almost certainly right in that it added fuel to the flames. Sanji also belittles Zoro’s dream again in that scene. But that instance is more why Sanji hates Zoro than the other way around. This goes back to Sanji’s chivalry and Zeff’s teachings, which are also a major weakness at times. Nami literally just told the crew that she killed Usopp, so Zoro took action. Sanji prioritizes his amorous feelings over his crewmates.

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                                                  Erkan12 @gyuukarubi
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                                                  @gyuukarubi:

                                                  My hunch is that you’re probably right on the money with this. It’ll happen when Sanji starts showing more personal growth.

                                                  I think the difference between Zoro and Sanji is illustrated by the DON moment. Zoro clearly does not intend to die and has the willpower to survive. Sanji almost always gives up in hopeless situations. He surely would have died if he took on Luffy’s pain at that moment.

                                                  Nice detail. You’re almost certainly right in that it added fuel to the flames. Sanji also belittles Zoro’s dream again in that scene. But that instance is more why Sanji hates Zoro than the other way around. This goes back to Sanji’s chivalry and Zeff’s teachings, which are also a major weakness at times. Nami literally just told the crew that she killed Usopp, so Zoro took action. Sanji prioritizes his amorous feelings over his crewmates.

                                                  Zoro does intend to die, I am not sure how did you come to that conclusion. Zoro specifically asked Kuma to take his head instead of Luffy's. He was ready to die and he gave up. As well as against Mihawk, he gave up and he opened his arms and waited for Mihawk's strike and accepted his fate.

                                                  And to say that Sanji would die is completely baseless as well. You're either overrating Zoro or underrating Sanji. Even in East Blue, he took a full beating from Pearl, he probably broke a few ribs of Sanji yet he still fought with Gin and landed solid kicks to him in that situation. And despite getting a smackdown under the water from Kuroobi, he still beat him after. Even against Bon Clay when Bon turned into Nami and he took several cheap-shot beatings from Bon Clay, Sanji still managed to won the fight at the end. Sanji took a solid beating from Kalifa and then he fought with Jabra and defeated him, easily Kaku level opponent or even better due to his mastery of DF power. He also took a beating from Invisible Absalom and he even knifed him from behind but Sanji still stomped Absalom in that situation. Sanji wasn't anything less than Zoro, and like Zoro, he wins his fights due to his durability and stamina. In Shabody, he took a direct laser hit from Pacifista, and he still continued to fight and Kuma had to deflect his attack with his ability. In his entire life, Sanji always resisted an intense beating (by both from his siblings and Zeff) and he always survived in the end.

                                                  No one told Zoro to attack Nami, Luffy probably didn't believe and if someone needs to do something that was the captain Luffy, not Zoro. Sanji was right to stop him.

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                                                    gyuukarubi @Erkan12
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                                                    @Erkan12:

                                                    Zoro does intend to die, I am not sure how did you come to that conclusion. Zoro specifically asked Kuma to take his head instead of Luffy's. He was ready to die and he gave up. As well as against Mihawk, he gave up and he opened his arms and waited for Mihawk's strike and accepted his fate.

                                                    And to say that Sanji would die is completely baseless as well. You're either overrating Zoro or underrating Sanji. Even in East Blue, he took a full beating from Pearl, he probably broke a few ribs of Sanji yet he still fought with Gin and landed solid kicks to him in that situation. And despite getting a smackdown under the water from Kuroobi, he still beat him after. Even against Bon Clay when Bon turned into Nami and he took several cheap-shot beatings from Bon Clay, Sanji still managed to won the fight at the end. Sanji took a solid beating from Kalifa and then he fought with Jabra and defeated him, easily Kaku level opponent or even better due to his mastery of DF power. He also took a beating from Invisible Absalom and he even knifed him from behind but Sanji still stomped Absalom in that situation. Sanji wasn't anything less than Zoro, and like Zoro, he wins his fights due to his durability and stamina. In Shabody, he took a direct laser hit from Pacifista, and he still continued to fight and Kuma had to deflect his attack with his ability. In his entire life, Sanji always resisted an intense beating (by both from his siblings and Zeff) and he always survived in the end.

                                                    No one told Zoro to attack Nami, Luffy probably didn't believe and if someone needs to do something that was the captain Luffy, not Zoro. Sanji was right to stop him.

                                                    The difference behind Zoro and Sanji in their actions are the emotions behind them. Zoro’s declaration was “reluctance, yet willing to sacrifice pride for the sake of another’s goals.” Sanji’s is “regret and sacrifice due to low self-worth.” Zoro reluctantly sacrifices himself, yet his inner monologue never indicates he’s fully intends to die. Sanji’s inner dialogue always indicates he is ready to die (with regret).

                                                    The concept of Haki, literally “ambition,” is a very philosophical and symbolic power. Ultimately it is representative of the willpower one must attain to reach the top (strength, observation, and determination). There’s a reason why Sanji’s haki has consistently crumbled in Part 2… his ambitions aren’t as strong.

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                                                      Erkan12 @gyuukarubi
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                                                      @gyuukarubi:

                                                      The difference behind Zoro and Sanji in their actions are the emotions behind them. Zoro’s declaration was “reluctance, yet willing to sacrifice pride for the sake of another’s goals.” Sanji’s is “regret and sacrifice due to low self-worth.” Zoro reluctantly sacrifices himself, yet his inner monologue never indicates he’s fully intends to die. Sanji’s inner dialogue always indicates he is ready to die (with regret).

                                                      The concept of Haki, literally “ambition,” is a very philosophical and symbolic power. Ultimately it is representative of the willpower one must attain to reach the top (strength, observation, and determination). There’s a reason why Sanji’s haki has consistently crumbled in Part 2… his ambitions aren’t as strong.

                                                      What ambition are you talking about? Zoro already gave up on his dream in order to help Luffy and he begged Mihawk for to be trained. He also gave up on his ambition for Luffy's sake when he begged Kuma. Sanji did the same for helping others. There is no difference.

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                                                        gyuukarubi @Erkan12
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                                                        @Erkan12:

                                                        What ambition are you talking about? Zoro already gave up on his dream in order to help Luffy and he begged Mihawk for to be trained. He also gave up on his ambition for Luffy's sake when he begged Kuma. Sanji did the same for helping others. There is no difference.

                                                        Those were both “DON” moments in the manga. Zoro setting aside his pride for his captain is a valiant act, we all know and realize how serious Zoro is about his dream. He constantly works towards it and doesn’t really goof off as much as Sanji does.

                                                        Sanji has not taken his dream (nor his captain’s dream) as seriously, hence his weak haki (ambition). He is not being ambitious enough. He is flippant and distracted. Oda wants readers to see this.

                                                        Think of haki as more than just “magic” and you’ll start to understand.

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                                                          Erkan12 @gyuukarubi
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                                                          @gyuukarubi:

                                                          Those were both “DON” moments in the manga. Zoro setting aside his pride for his captain is a valiant act, we all know and realize how serious Zoro is about his dream. He constantly works towards it and doesn’t really goof off as much as Sanji does.

                                                          Sanji has not taken his dream (nor his captain’s dream) as seriously, hence his weak haki (ambition). He is not being ambitious enough. He is flippant and distracted. Oda wants readers to see this.

                                                          Think of haki as more than just “magic” and you’ll start to understand.

                                                          And what's the difference Sanji is doing the same for Zeff and then for his crewmates?

                                                          Luffy and all of his crew, risk their lives for their crewmates, as we've seen from Enies Lobby. You're acting like Zoro is kind of different than his crewmates, and as if only he sacrifices himself and his pride for his captain. That's ridiculous.

                                                          Sanji is specialized in CoO Haki, Zoro is specialized in CoA Haki, Oda said that in SBS. Everyone is different. Sanji is better than Zoro in Observation Haki, which is why he was able to dodge even Katakuri's FS attack, while Zoro couldn't deal with Gyukimaru and Killer at the same time and he gets wounded heavily because of that and he gets KOed.

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                                                            gyuukarubi @Erkan12
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                                                            @Erkan12:

                                                            And what's the difference Sanji is doing the same for Zeff and then for his crewmates?

                                                            Luffy and all of his crew, risk their lives for their crewmates, as we've seen from Enies Lobby. You're acting like Zoro is kind of different than his crewmates, and as if only he sacrifices himself and his pride for his captain. That's ridiculous.

                                                            Pay attention to the characters' inner monologues. In Zoro's moments of sacrifice, he never thinks to himself "I'm ready to die… I've had a long life, etc." (Exhibit A, Exhibit B). This is because his willpower never be broken, even if he is killed. Death is always a possibility along the path that Zoro walks, Zoro always puts up a fight when death comes knocking.

                                                            Sanji resigns himself to senseless death consistently (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C). Essentially, Sanji is giving up without a fight in these moments. He can't understand Zoro in these moments because his ambition isn't there yet.

                                                            @Erkan12:

                                                            Sanji is specialized in CoO Haki, Zoro is specialized in CoA Haki, Oda said that in SBS. Everyone is different. Sanji is better than Zoro in Observation Haki, which is why he was able to dodge even Katakuri's FS attack, while Zoro couldn't deal with Gyukimaru and Killer at the same time and he gets wounded heavily because of that and he gets KOed.

                                                            Yes, Sanji has good observational skills. We've known this for a while. But he is poor at arming himself against danger. Zoro is not very observant, hence him getting lost a lot. "Ambition" is just as much metaphorical as it is an actual power.

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                                                            • Kishido
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                                                              So know Sanji got a power boost because he has overcome his shit in WCI

                                                              Super Haki plus raid suit Sanji incoming

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                                                                @gyuukarubi:

                                                                Pay attention to the characters' inner monologues. In Zoro's moments of sacrifice, he never thinks to himself "I'm ready to die… I've had a long life, etc." (Exhibit A, Exhibit B). This is because his willpower never be broken, even if he is killed. Death is always a possibility along the path that Zoro walks, Zoro always puts up a fight when death comes knocking. Sanji resigns himself to senseless death consistently (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C). Essentially, Sanji is giving up without a fight in these moments. He can't understand Zoro in these moments because his ambition isn't there yet. Yes, Sanji has good observational skills. We've known this for a while. But he is poor at arming himself against danger. Zoro is not very observant, hence him getting lost a lot. "Ambition" is just as much metaphorical as it is an actual power.

                                                                You have double standards. First of all, Sanji was sacrificing his dream for Zeff, he had a debt to Zeff and which is why he was staying at Baratie. The same thing Zoro did for Luffy when Zoro sacrificed his dream for Luffy. Zoro had no one to sacrifice his dream for of course he would do that, he even wants to do it because he gave his word to his dead friend Kuina. Secondly, Sanji has principles and he never crosses that line even if it kills him, he can't kick a woman even if it kills him. Against Kalifa, even his zombie shadow says the same thing at Thriller Bark. This is a willpower as well, even if he is killed. He feeds the hungry people even if he is killed, this is a willpower as well. He also tried to protect Baratie, even if he is killed.

                                                                Zoro had nothing other than the word he gave to Kuina who is already dead. Which is why he couldn't turn back and he had to fight against Mihawk. While Sanji still had Zeff and Baratie, it was different for Sanji and it was different for Zoro.

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                                                                  gyuukarubi @Erkan12
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                                                                  @Kishido:

                                                                  So know Sanji got a power boost because he has overcome his shit in WCI

                                                                  Super Haki plus raid suit Sanji incoming

                                                                  Not quite. Sanji may have learned to stop running from his past and to embrace his heritage, but he hasn't learned his full lesson yet. He hasn't overcome his weaknesses yet. He is kind to a fault (resulting in self-sacrifice and not fighting back), will still easily abandon his dreams, and he is weak towards women. Truthfully, Sanji is holding himself back from achieving greatness.

                                                                  Zeff told him all of these things in the Baratie arc. Sanji couldn't understand why Luffy and Zoro would fight back, but he should have learned a lesson (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C). He needs more grit.

                                                                  @Erkan12:

                                                                  You have double standards. First of all, Sanji was sacrificing his dream for Zeff, he had a debt to Zeff and which is why he was staying at Baratie. The same thing Zoro did for Luffy when Zoro sacrificed his dream for Luffy. Zoro had no one to sacrifice his dream for of course he would do that, he even wants to do it because he gave his word to his dead friend Kuina.

                                                                  I think it may help you to reread the Baratie arc. Sanji sacrificing his dream for Zeff is the exact opposite of what Zeff would have wanted him to do.
                                                                  "Three things can never be stopped: inherited will, the dreams of men, and the flow of time." - Gol D. Roger

                                                                  Why did Zeff sacrifice his leg for Sanji? Because he had the same dream as him.
                                                                  Sanji was the one inheriting the dream of Zeff. Time had already passed for far too long for Zeff, thus Sanji will carry the torch for him.

                                                                  @Erkan12:

                                                                  Secondly, Sanji has principles and he never crosses that line even if it kills him, he can't kick a woman even if it kills him. Against Kalifa, even his zombie shadow says the same thing at Thriller Bark. This is a willpower as well, even if he is killed. He feeds the hungry people even if he is killed, this is a willpower as well. He also tried to protect Baratie, even if he is killed.

                                                                  It's not about kicking a woman. Like Nami says… his chivalry is worthless if it gets him killed, and he could just run away if he can't handle that enemy. For Sanji, it's about pride and self-sacrifice.

                                                                  Sanji made a vow to be a Straw Hat Pirate but still isn't doing as much as he can to make Luffy's dream come true, nor is he following his own dream wholeheartedly. This will eventually change, but I hope Sanji doesn't die soon after he realizes it.

                                                                  @Erkan12:

                                                                  Zoro had nothing other than the word he gave to Kuina who is already dead. Which is why he couldn't turn back and he had to fight against Mihawk. While Sanji still had Zeff and Baratie, it was different for Sanji and it was different for Zoro.

                                                                  I would reanalyze this.

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                                                                    Theory to why Carrot is the traitor:

                                                                    Expanded panel shows that there was a fourth calamity. It looks like it has Rabbit ears.

                                                                    !

                                                                    The only way to get to Zou is with a vivre card

                                                                    !

                                                                    It could be that Carrot hates people from Wanokuni since they killed her mother or father (a former calamity) and in order to get revenge she handed a piece of her own vivre card to one of the beast pirates. Considering that the beast pirates are all about having a beast theme, it is not far fetched that they had a mink in their crew.

                                                                    There has also always been a fourth commander in crews, such as Snack and Thatch who are known to be defeated/killed. So if Carrots parent was a calamity, they probably suffered a similar fate.

                                                                    Jack found the location of Zou twice and knew that Raizou was on the island, something only the minks could know. It definitely wasn't a vivre card of Raizou since if they did have it, they would instantly find his location.
                                                                    Carrot isn't high ranking so she didn't know where Raizou was hidden. Only a few people knew of his location in the whale tree. Carrot only knew he was in Wano, but not of his location.
                                                                    Also on Carrots vivre card, it says she has the ability of showing different emotions. Which sounds interesting and could be a hint that she could be good at acting.

                                                                    On top of this why could Carrot be listed as one of the most important characters in the volume when she had about 2 panels and the information about the markings/secret message were leaked?

                                                                    !

                                                                    Then we have the Strawhats ship location being leaked in one of the latest chapters.

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                                                                      Kishido @SuburbanErrorist
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                                                                      @SuburbanErrorist:

                                                                      Theory to why Carrot is the traitor:

                                                                      Expanded panel shows that there was a fourth calamity. It looks like it has Rabbit ears.

                                                                      ! [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/bh8cLFW.png[/qimg]

                                                                      The only way to get to Zou is with a vivre card

                                                                      ! [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/fTEmjew.png[/qimg]

                                                                      It could be that Carrot hates people from Wanokuni since they killed her mother or father (a former calamity) and in order to get revenge she handed a piece of her own vivre card to one of the beast pirates. Considering that the beast pirates are all about having a beast theme, it is not far fetched that they had a mink in their crew.

                                                                      There has also always been a fourth commander in crews, such as Snack and Thatch who are known to be defeated/killed. So if Carrots parent was a calamity, they probably suffered a similar fate.

                                                                      Jack found the location of Zou twice and knew that Raizou was on the island, something only the minks could know. It definitely wasn't a vivre card of Raizou since if they did have it, they would instantly find his location.
                                                                      Carrot isn't high ranking so she didn't know where Raizou was hidden. Only a few people knew of his location in the whale tree. Carrot only knew he was in Wano, but not of his location.
                                                                      Also on Carrots vivre card, it says she has the ability of showing different emotions. Which sounds interesting and could be a hint that she could be good at acting.

                                                                      On top of this why could Carrot be listed as one of the most important characters in the volume when she had about 2 panels and the information about the markings/secret message were leaked?

                                                                      ! [qimg]https://i.imgur.com/UwKsgE4.png[/qimg]

                                                                      Then we have the Strawhats ship location being leaked in one of the latest chapters.

                                                                      Rabbits are evil
                                                                      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Story_of_a_Fierce_Bad_Rabbit

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                                                                        Erkan12 @gyuukarubi
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                                                                        @gyuukarubi:

                                                                        Not quite. Sanji may have learned to stop running from his past and to embrace his heritage, but he hasn't learned his full lesson yet. He hasn't overcome his weaknesses yet. He is kind to a fault (resulting in self-sacrifice and not fighting back), will still easily abandon his dreams, and he is weak towards women. Truthfully, Sanji is holding himself back from achieving greatness.

                                                                        Zeff told him all of these things in the Baratie arc. Sanji couldn't understand why Luffy and Zoro would fight back, but he should have learned a lesson (Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C). He needs more grit.

                                                                        I think it may help you to reread the Baratie arc. Sanji sacrificing his dream for Zeff is the exact opposite of what Zeff would have wanted him to do.
                                                                        "Three things can never be stopped: inherited will, the dreams of men, and the flow of time." - Gol D. Roger

                                                                        Why did Zeff sacrifice his leg for Sanji? Because he had the same dream as him.
                                                                        Sanji was the one inheriting the dream of Zeff. Time had already passed for far too long for Zeff, thus Sanji will carry the torch for him.

                                                                        It's not about kicking a woman. Like Nami says… his chivalry is worthless if it gets him killed, and he could just run away if he can't handle that enemy. For Sanji, it's about pride and self-sacrifice.

                                                                        Sanji made a vow to be a Straw Hat Pirate but still isn't doing as much as he can to make Luffy's dream come true, nor is he following his own dream wholeheartedly. This will eventually change, but I hope Sanji doesn't die soon after he realizes it.

                                                                        I would reanalyze this.

                                                                        So Sanji should've left Zeff behind without caring about him or his restaurant even after everything Zeff has done for him? The only person who puts his dream above of anyone else is Blackbeard. Even Luffy wouldn't sacrifice his friends for his dream. He said Usopp that he would give up on being pirate if they learned the truth about One Piece. I guess Luffy's ambition is weak because he gives up in that situation? According to your logic it must be. Luffy would sacrifice his dream for the lives of his friends, as well as Zoro did that for Luffy. Sanji was no different in that situation. Of course Sanji is following his own dream wholeheartedly, it's just you're misinterpreting the situations, as if Luffy or Zoro wouldn't sacrifice their dreams for their friends, the whole point of Zoro's ambition comes from his dead friend Kuina, if he didn't have that word he gave to Kuina, he wouldn't follow that path. They all sacrifices their lives in different situations. Sanji wanted the same for Zeff and Baratie, you can't expect him to give up on protecting them so easily, he needed time and full approval of Zeff and Baratie crew, when he understood that they totally want him to follow his own path Sanji did the right thing and joined Luffy.

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                                                                          gyuukarubi @Erkan12
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                                                                          @Erkan12:

                                                                          So Sanji should've left Zeff behind without caring about him or his restaurant even after everything Zeff has done for him?

                                                                          Yes. That’s what Zeff wants for his son.

                                                                          @Erkan12:

                                                                          The only person who puts his dream above of anyone else is Blackbeard.

                                                                          Even with all his amorality, on some level Blackbeard has figured something out about dreams. There is an inherent selfishness to them that cannot be ignored.

                                                                          @Erkan12:

                                                                          Even Luffy wouldn't sacrifice his friends for his dream. He said Usopp that he would give up on being pirate if they learned the truth about One Piece. I guess Luffy's ambition is weak because he gives up in that situation? According to your logic it must be. Luffy would sacrifice his dream for the lives of his friends, as well as Zoro did that for Luffy. Sanji was no different in that situation. Of course Sanji is following his own dream wholeheartedly, it's just you're misinterpreting the situations, as if Luffy or Zoro wouldn't sacrifice their dreams for their friends, the whole point of Zoro's ambition comes from his dead friend Kuina, if he didn't have that word he gave to Kuina, he wouldn't follow that path. They all sacrifices their lives in different situations. Sanji wanted the same for Zeff and Baratie, you can't expect him to give up on protecting them so easily, he needed time and full approval of Zeff and Baratie crew, when he understood that they totally want him to follow his own path Sanji did the right thing and joined Luffy.

                                                                          Luffy would never sacrifice his friends for his dreams, but they all must be ready to sacrifice their dreams to help his dream come true. That was the commitment they made to him. That’s best encapsulated by Jimbei’s sacrifice at the end of Whole Cake Island (and Pedro’s).

                                                                          You keep bringing up Zoro and Kuina without paying attention to the Gold Roger quote in my last post, so here it is again:

                                                                          "Three things can never be stopped: inherited will, the dreams of men, and the flow of time." - Gol D. Roger

                                                                          This is actually a really important part of understanding One Piece as a series. Zoro has inherited Kuina’s will, whose time was cut short by a tragic accident. He fights for his dreams for her. Sanji should be doing the same for Zeff, but he’s busy frivolously gallavanting around and not making the strides he needs to in order to attain his goals. Achieving your dreams isn’t easy and you need to fight for them everyday. Sanji needs to overcome himself. Zeff may still die but that’s always a possibility. He told Sanji to move forward and not look back. Such is the path they chose. The hero’s journey.

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                                                                            Erkan12 @gyuukarubi
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                                                                            @gyuukarubi:

                                                                            Yes. That’s what Zeff wants for his son.

                                                                            Even with all his amorality, on some level Blackbeard has figured something out about dreams. There is an inherent selfishness to them that cannot be ignored.

                                                                            Luffy would never sacrifice his friends for his dreams, but they all must be ready to sacrifice their dreams to help his dream come true. That was the commitment they made to him. That’s best encapsulated by Jimbei’s sacrifice at the end of Whole Cake Island (and Pedro’s).

                                                                            You keep bringing up Zoro and Kuina without paying attention to the Gold Roger quote in my last post, so here it is again:

                                                                            "Three things can never be stopped: inherited will, the dreams of men, and the flow of time." - Gol D. Roger

                                                                            This is actually a really important part of understanding One Piece as a series. Zoro has inherited Kuina’s will, whose time was cut short by a tragic accident. He fights for his dreams for her. Sanji should be doing the same for Zeff, but he’s busy frivolously gallavanting around and not making the strides he needs to in order to attain his goals. Achieving your dreams isn’t easy and you need to fight for them everyday. Sanji needs to overcome himself. Zeff may still die but that’s always a possibility. He told Sanji to move forward and not look back. Such is the path they chose. The hero’s journey.

                                                                            You're ignoring the fact that Sanji is different than the rest of the crew. No one in the crew has suffered the same things that Sanji suffered in his past due to his biological father Judge. Not Luffy, not Zoro, no one else suffered that. Of course Sanji would feel more indebted to his ''real'' father Zeff more than anyone else. Even then Sanji already said Luffy that he will go after his dreams after he pays his debt to Zeff, probably he was waiting until Zeff dies. And that's only natural. The guy sacrificed everything he has for Sanji. He wanted Sanji go after his dreams, but Sanji never said he isn't going after his dreams, he just said it wasn't the right time. He also didn't know Zeff fully agreed with that which is why he surprised to hear them, read the end of chapter 67. And after learning that Sanji changes his mind.

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                                                                            • Kishido
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                                                                              Am I wrong or Zoro said to Luffy if he ever stood on his way becoming the WSS he will leave.

                                                                              So much for everyone sacrificing their dream. Everyone would do so but Luffy for sure wouldn't allow it.

                                                                              But hey double standards

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                                                                                desa @Kishido
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                                                                                @Kishido:

                                                                                Am I wrong or Zoro said to Luffy if he ever stood on his way becoming the WSS he will leave.

                                                                                That was when they first met and barely knew each other.

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                                                                                  @desa:

                                                                                  That was when they first met and barely knew each other.

                                                                                  Yeah I know just pointed it out.

                                                                                  I do not get the argument… He says each SH would sacrafize their dream for Luffy's dream but if Sanji does so he is somehow weak in mind LOL

                                                                                  But it's obvious that he has some strange look at thinks and ist biased as fuck in this case

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                                                                                    gyuukarubi @Erkan12
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                                                                                    @Erkan12:

                                                                                    You're ignoring the fact that Sanji is different than the rest of the crew. No one in the crew has suffered the same things that Sanji suffered in his past due to his biological father Judge. Not Luffy, not Zoro, no one else suffered that. Of course Sanji would feel more indebted to his ''real'' father Zeff more than anyone else. Even then Sanji already said Luffy that he will go after his dreams after he pays his debt to Zeff, probably he was waiting until Zeff dies. And that's only natural. The guy sacrificed everything he has for Sanji. He wanted Sanji go after his dreams, but Sanji never said he isn't going after his dreams, he just said it wasn't the right time. He also didn't know Zeff fully agreed with that which is why he surprised to hear them, read the end of chapter 67. And after learning that Sanji changes his mind.

                                                                                    Shit happens in life. You deal with it. Everyone in One Piece had a tough past, but that doesn’t mean that Sanji is exempt from competence because of his past.

                                                                                    Sanji’s actions literally have ended up causing the revival of the strongest pirate crew of all time (and potentially the deaths of their allies). He’s gotta step it up.

                                                                                    And answer me this… what steps has Sanji consciously taken to reach his goals? How has he detracted from Luffy’s goal and potentially put his allies in jeopardy? Put your critical thinking hat on. “Critical” thinking.

                                                                                    @Kishido Sanji isn’t sacrificing anything for his crew. He’s kind but also selfish. He has a weak mind. I’ve already explained it all, so it really just comes down to you understanding it. This doesn’t mean that Sanji can’t change or get better, but he’s still a weakling (comparative to his potential) by choice for now.

                                                                                    The key words here are “by choice.”

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                                                                                      EvoWarrior5 @gyuukarubi
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                                                                                      @gyuukarubi:

                                                                                      Sanji’s actions literally have ended up causing the revival of the strongest pirate crew of all time (and potentially the deaths of their allies). He’s gotta step it up.

                                                                                      Idk if it's because I'm drunk but who tf are you talking about here? ._.

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                                                                                        @Kishido:

                                                                                        Yeah I know just pointed it out.

                                                                                        I do not get the argument… He says each SH would sacrafize their dream for Luffy's dream but if Sanji does so he is somehow weak in mind LOL

                                                                                        But it's obvious that he has some strange look at thinks and ist biased as fuck in this case

                                                                                        He also claims that haki is measured in DON so… I think he just takes whatever theory he sees on YouTube.

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                                                                                        @EvoWarrior5:

                                                                                        Idk if it's because I'm drunk but who tf are you talking about here? ._.

                                                                                        He's talking about how because of him Luffy went to WCI, and because he crashed the wedding BM followed Luffy to Wano.
                                                                                        Which is actually a fair point. But Sanji DID say pre-TS that he's the one who's going to cause a storm in the NW.

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                                                                                            EvoWarrior5 @mbaruh
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                                                                                            @mbaruh:

                                                                                            He's talking about how because of him Luffy went to WCI, and because he crashed the wedding BM followed Luffy to Wano.

                                                                                            Riiight the Rox pirates, wasn't thinking about that because I still don't see 2 members getting together again as a proper "revival" (apparently Kaidou was just an apprentice at the time so we're not sure if they were elite members). But fair enough, I get it now

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                                                                                              mbaruh @EvoWarrior5
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                                                                                              @EvoWarrior5:

                                                                                              Riiight the Rox pirates, wasn't thinking about that because I still don't see 2 members getting together again as a proper "revival" (apparently Kaidou was just an apprentice at the time so we're not sure if they were elite members). But fair enough, I get it now

                                                                                              Yeah this Rocks thing can go anywhere at the moment. Either way I highly doubt Oda intended for the blame to be put on Sanji, but rather just used him as a plot device for this to happen.

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                                                                                                gyuukarubi @mbaruh
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                                                                                                @mbaruh:

                                                                                                He also claims that haki is measured in DON so… I think he just takes whatever theory he sees on YouTube.

                                                                                                If you’re not paying attention to the sound effects, you’re still asleep. This isn’t even a YouTube theory… this is my own analysis.

                                                                                                @mbaruh:

                                                                                                Yeah this Rocks thing can go anywhere at the moment. Either way I highly doubt Oda intended for the blame to be put on Sanji, but rather just used him as a plot device for this to happen.

                                                                                                Would this have happened if Sanji hadn’t defected?

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                                                                                                  mbaruh @gyuukarubi
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                                                                                                  @gyuukarubi:

                                                                                                  Would this have happened if Sanji hadn’t defected?

                                                                                                  Of course he's part of it, but no one will point fingers at him for getting trapped between a yonko and his abusive cyborg-family.
                                                                                                  It's like saying that Robin is a bad character because she cooperated with CP9.
                                                                                                  Or the same for Nami, for leaving for Arlong Park.
                                                                                                  Or the same for Ussop, for trying to save Merry.

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                                                                                                    gyuukarubi @mbaruh
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                                                                                                    @mbaruh:

                                                                                                    Of course he's part of it, but no one will point fingers at him for getting trapped between a yonko and his abusive cyborg-family.
                                                                                                    It's like saying that Robin is a bad character because she cooperated with CP9.
                                                                                                    Or the same for Nami, for leaving for Arlong Park.
                                                                                                    Or the same for Ussop, for trying to save Merry.

                                                                                                    But actions have consequences. People make choices and whatever results is usually a direct result of their own decisions, positive or negative. Regardless of Sanji’s intent, it doesn’t absolve him from blame.

                                                                                                    Nami and Robin were being held hostage against their will and never “really” joined the crew until Luffy stood up for them.

                                                                                                    Usopp is the rare case since he was actually correct in his judgment: he was trying to save a teammate. But he was wrong because he poorly explained his rationale and revolted against his leader. Usopp had to apologize before he returned for that reason.

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                                                                                                      mbaruh @gyuukarubi
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                                                                                                      @gyuukarubi:

                                                                                                      But actions have consequences. People make choices and whatever results is usually a direct result of their own decisions, positive or negative. Regardless of Sanji’s intent, it doesn’t absolve him from blame.

                                                                                                      Nami and Robin were being held hostage against their will and never “really” joined the crew until Luffy stood up for them.

                                                                                                      Usopp is the rare case since he was actually correct in his judgment: he was trying to save a teammate. But he was wrong because he poorly explained his rationale and revolted against his leader. Usopp had to apologize before he returned for that reason.

                                                                                                      His crewmates were held at gunpoint (literally), and his mentor's life was threatened. How much hostage do you need?
                                                                                                      And Robin was part of the crew. It may have been superficial at first, but by Water 7 she was literally willing to die for them.

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                                                                                                        gyuukarubi @mbaruh
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                                                                                                        @mbaruh:

                                                                                                        His crewmates were held at gunpoint (literally), and his mentor's life was threatened. How much hostage do you need?
                                                                                                        And Robin was part of the crew. It may have been superficial at first, but by Water 7 she was literally willing to die for them.

                                                                                                        What’s stopping Big Mom from taking out the Baratie right now? Nothing. And Sanji + Brook + Nami + Chopper + Caesar could have taken out Bege.

                                                                                                        Also, have you noticed how Oda entitles chapters when the crew members officially join “The #th person”? Hence the title of Ch. 439 representing the official join of Usopp and Robin.

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