Theories That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread v.2

[Razh]

@desa:

There is so many with conqueror haki out there that I'm not even sure how limiting it would be to those chasing the One Piece. I mean the only one we met with a shot at it who doesn't have it is Blackbeard.

Well it was said roughly one in a million has it. For example, Alabasta's population is 10 million, FI has around 5.

If CoC has to exist, I prefer there a more users rather than less. To make things more interesting at least. If there were like 5-6 dudes that had it, it would make most of the other contestants irrelevant.

Also, BB still has time to show it. Oda has been keeping most of his capabilities under wraps anyway.

[Count Mario]

@desa:

Luffy is son of the most of the most wanted man, Grandson of the hero of the marines, brother of the son of the previous pirate king(and adoptive son of the ruler of the seas). He works around with the hat of the pirate king, he has the yonko that went to raftel as a mentor, and he is the only of the supernovas(that are supposed to inspire the new generation) with conqueror's haki and among the few with a D.

At this point both Luffy lineage, influence and actions are definitely special and since destiny is an actual thing Luffy definitely destined to greatness.

There is so many with conqueror haki out there that I'm not even sure how limiting it would be to those chasing the One Piece. I mean the only one we met with a shot at it who doesn't have it is Blackbeard.

I mentioned all of that in my post, and I know that Luffy is special. He's not a humble beginnings protagonist like Naruto. Luffy's credentials show that he has a lot of potential. But that's pretty much it though. Potential. It's still not an outright confirmation or destiny to become Pirate King. He still earned everything he's gotten this far thanks to effort and companionship, not his family paving out the road for him aside from saving his life once or twice. His superpower isn't really his Devil Fruit. Haki, or The Voice of All Things, but how he inspires and rallies others. Ace had a lot of potential, but he ended up dying. And Luffy has still lost a bunch of times. In a story that is about inspiring others and is about how willpower, not oppressing others or superficial pride, is the way to winning and protecting what you care about, a bloodline trait like Conquerer's Haki being necessary to access Raftel leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. There's a difference between Luffy having an advantage and most of the One Piece world's pirate population completely wasting their time.

[desa]

@Count:

There's a difference between Luffy having an advantage and most of the One Piece world's pirate population completely wasting their time

The yonkos(and grandline in general) already make it so that most pirates don't have shot at it. Between Doffly, the yonkos and even Chinjao having it, it seems a great number of those with a real shot at getting the treasure and interest in it(not just randoms like Bellamy) actually have the conqueror haki.

[Count Mario]

@desa:

The yonkos(and grandline in general) already make it so that most pirates don't have shot at it. Between Doffly, the yonkos and even Chinjao having it, it seems a great number of those with a real shot at getting the treasure and interest in it(not just randoms like Bellamy) actually have the conqueror haki.

And the Yonko earned their monopolized territories without being destined for greatness. And they're still not invincible. Conquerer's Haki signals potential in terms of ambition and willpower. It didn't literally give them all of their power. And it's not like there aren't strong people without Conquerer's Haki, as seen with Zoro and Sanji. Someone with Conquerer's could be best suited, but there shouldn't be, say, an invisible wall around Raftel you can't pass without Conquerer's Haki.

[desa]

@Count:

And the Yonko earned their monopolized territories without being destined for greatness. And they're still not invincible. Conquerer's Haki signals potential in terms of ambition and willpower. It didn't literally give them all of their power.

And since the ones we know all had conqueror haki they don't run the risk of being blocked in their path to raftel by such problem. So I ask again who is the person who has a decent shot at the title that doesn't have that haki?

And it's not like there aren't strong people without Conquerer's Haki, as seen with Zoro and Sanji.

Both are under Luffy who does have that haki.

Someone with Conquerer's could be best suited, but there shouldn't be, say, an invisible wall around Raftel you can't pass without Conquerer's Haki.

Is there actually someone with a decent shot at the title which doesn't have it. Or is your probalem that Bellamy or Sarquiss would not get it even if they had no interest and chance of getting it at first?

[Count Mario]

@desa:

And since the ones we know all had conqueror haki they don't run the risk of being blocked in their path to raftel by such problem. So I ask again who is the person who has a decent shot at the title that doesn't have that haki?

Both are under Luffy who does have that haki.

Is there actually someone with a decent shot at the title which doesn't have it. Or is your probalem that Bellamy or Sarquiss would not get it even if they had no interest and chance of getting it at first?

Crocodile, Moria, the rest of the Worst Generation as far as we know, and other Supernovas in general. Not to mention characters likenthe Admirals if they decided to become pirates instead of Marines.

That still doesn't counter my point about how you can still be extremely strong without Conquerer's Haki.

Yes, there are people with decent shots at the title. And regardless, it's more meaningful for other characters to lose out on the title due to flaws psychologically and physically that are not predetermined by birthright. I want to know that somebody like Bellamy can't become Pirate King due to not being in dreams and being subservient to others, not who his ancestors are.

[desa]

@Count:

Crocodile, Moria, the rest of the Worst Generation as far as we know, and other Supernovas in general. Not to mention characters like the Admirals if they decided to become pirates instead of Marines.

Both Croc and Moriah got destroyed and the supernovas seems pretty bad at making their way up there. Incidently they keep getting destroyed or subservient to someone with the special haki.
The admirals have no interest in it. They are actually playing the opposite game. Add to that they could just recruit someone with it.

That still doesn't counter my point about how you can still be extremely strong without Conquerer's Haki.

Strength matters to you a lot. My point was they have interest in it and are subservient to someone with that special haki.

Yes, there are people with decent shots at the title. And regardless, it's more meaningful for other characters to lose out on the title due to flaws psychologically and physically that are not predetermined by birthright. I want to know that somebody like Bellamy can't become Pirate King due to not being in dreams and being subservient to others, not who his ancestors are.

I would say lineage, conqueror and his D. already shows that Luffy has that birthright to stand at the top regardless of a physical barrier. Plus the existence of destiny and the one Roger was looking for.

At this point of the story most people either destroyed by someone with that special haki, is subservient to someone with that special haki or is not interested in that very specific goal.

[Count Mario]

@desa:

Both Croc and Moriah got destroyed and the supernovas seems pretty bad at making their way up there. Incidently they keep getting destroyed or subservient to someone with the special haki.
The admirals have no interest in it. They are actually playing the opposite game. Add to that they could just recruit someone with it.

Crocodile put up a good fight and suffered from Oda lacking the foresight to power scale him with the rest of the Warlords, and relied on his Devil Fruit as a crutch until Luffy found out his weakness. Moria got lazy for years and decided to rely on others instead of putting in effort himself. They both got wrecked for valid logical reasons, the story shouldn't need more then that when you have perfect moral lessons anyone can and should apply in their lives right there. And we'll likely see that once they come back post-timeskip and show how much they've grown, which shows how they have potential in their own right to be big-shots.

They might if the World Government ever gains access to the Road Poneglyph scripts and decide to raid Raftel themselves. And yes, they could recruit someone with Conquerer's Haki, but I still can't care much for Raftel requiring an arbitrary genetic trait for access this late in the game. It'd be a different story if Conquerer's didn't belong to Luffy and the crew had to find someone that did, but then that gets into messing up its theme of how it's supposed to belong to leaders and all of that nonsense. And I still wouldn't care for Raftel needing a special genetic technique for access. At least people can actually learn to read Poneglyph scriptures (before the World Government and Kaido made that a highly rare skill), and there's the island at the end of the Grand Line that supposedly informs people that they have to look for Poneglyphs to get to Raftel. Pudding's third eye tribe descent is also an option that's genetic-related, but at least that's an option. Not the sole mandatory route.

Strength matters to you a lot. My point was they have interest in it and are subservient to someone with that special haki.

And my point is that people don't need to rely on Conquerer's Haki to become a top player in the One Piece universe.

I would say lineage, conqueror and his D. already shows that Luffy has that birthright to stand at the top regardless of a physical barrier. Plus the existence of destiny and the one Roger was looking for.

At this point of the story most people either destroyed by someone with that special haki, is subservient to someone with that special haki or is not interested in that very specific goal.

But all three of those things aren't consistent assets in how he surpasses his obstacles, and play a role more in how people generalize and prejudge Luffy. They hint that something's special about him, but that doesn't mean the way to Raftel is paved for him and only him. At most, it's that he has the potential to make some big changes in the world.

Roger looking for someone "worthy" can end up going in a bunch of directions. It's very possible that he hopes that someone morally worthy will claim One Piece instead of someone like every Yonko besides Shanks. Although it probably connects to whatever the Roger Pirates feel about the Void Century history and what they had cold feet about doing with it. Whitebeard meaning that Teach LITERALLY cannot access One Piece because he lacks some sort of skill that Roger's successor conveniently has to access One Piece would be pretty underwhelming. I bet Roger did something like Shanks where he "bet on the new generation" or something, which is code for having high hopes for whoever manages to inherit what's left of his legacy.

And that's all just because Conquerer's Haki is Oda's narrative way of hyping up characters. So of course he's going to shove it onto every big name nowadays. That doesn't actually mean that you need it to come this far in the story. It's merely a trait to expect out of big names than the reason why they're present. When people get wrecked by a Yonko or Doflamingo, they're wrecked because they're weaker overall (and lack plot armor). It's Oda's arbitrary preference for hyped big shot characters to probably have Conquerer's Haki. Just look at how far Mihawk came, assuming he doesn't have it. He didn't need it. The other Worst Generation members are still relevant threats (or at least Oda somehow wants us to think that lol), even though we all know they'll probably become Luffy's cheerleaders whether they like it or not.

Conquerer's Haki isn't anything like being the Avatar, where you have a prophecy everybody knows is focused on one person from the get-go and need to rely on using/mastering all four elements to save the day. Conquerer's is just this minute genetic trait that doesn't play any major narrative role besides making the crowd go wild. It's randomly inherited, it's useless (for now), and it goes against One Piece's themes of ambitious dreams, willpower, bonds, and training being prevalent sources of power. Which is why I don't like a rare genetic trait like Conquerer's being essential for Raftel access after how much this series has talked about how the Age of Pirates beautifully inspires all of the different shades of morality in the world to act and achieve their dreams.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@RomanceDawn:

While we are on the subject I think Usopp will display it one day as well. God as already given the word, now all we do is have faith.

If i weren't with Miroku's greatness on my signature, i would put this on it.

My appreciation is that among the crew, Zoro and Usopp have the requirement, i mean… it's about this:

!

Luffy and Usopp's dreams are exactly about this, Luffy unlocked it for plotsake but Usopp still don't get serious for the same reason. I take strongly the word "overcome" for my examples, just like when Zoro overcame steel and for sure that's what his master meant at explaining the pinnacle of swordmanship. For Usopp, Sogeking is the more adapted to overcome the spirit of others… and he first appeared when he wasn't part of the crew and when fighting a girl.

[desa]

@Count:

Crocodile put up a good fight and suffered from Oda lacking the foresight to power scale him with the rest of the Warlords, and relied on his Devil Fruit as a crutch until Luffy found out his weakness. Moria got lazy for years and decided to rely on others instead of putting in effort himself. They both got wrecked for valid logical reasons, the story shouldn't need more then that when you have perfect moral lessons anyone can and should apply in their lives right there. And we'll likely see that once they come back post-timeskip and show how much they've grown, which shows how they have potential in their own right to be big-shots.

I am talking about both Crocodile &Moriah getting wrecked by yonkos in their prime long before the begenning of Luffy's journey. They may have been cool and all but when it came to their chase to the one piece they got destroyed by much bigger fishes then them who coincidently had the special haki. They did not make it to raftel and got turned down by that barrier you seem to fear. They got destroyed by bigger fish and those bigger fish problem is that they don't have the map to the location.

Luffy is not the only one with that haki and most of his serious contenders have it or fall to those who do.

They might if the World Government ever gains access to the Road Poneglyph scripts and decide to raid Raftel themselves. And yes, they could recruit someone with Conquerer's Haki, but I still can't care much for Raftel requiring an arbitrary genetic trait for access this late in the game. It'd be a different story if Conquerer's didn't belong to Luffy and the crew had to find someone that did, but then that gets into messing up its theme of how it's supposed to belong to leaders and all of that nonsense. And I still wouldn't care for Raftel needing a special genetic technique for access. At least people can actually learn to read Poneglyph scriptures (before the World Government and Kaido made that a highly rare skill), and there's the island at the end of the Grand Line that supposedly informs people that they have to look for Poneglyphs to get to Raftel. Pudding's third eye tribe descent is also an option that's genetic-related, but at least that's an option. Not the sole mandatory route.

It's not like reading superstones is any more common than that haki. As far as we know it is actually even rarer. Again Luffy is not the only one with it and most serious contender to the title has it. Finding someone for the stones is much more challenging than finding someone with that haki.

And my point is that people don't need to rely on Conquerer's Haki to become a top player in the One Piece universe.

If you are talking top player I would say Mihawk rather than Sanji & Zoro.

No, you don't need that haki to become a top player(Mihawk,Garp). Just like you don't need companion for it(Mihawk again). But if you are to become the pirate king you sure will need some companions with great skills and abilities to make it. So the way to make it varies depending on what you are trying to achieve(a sword for top swordsman).

But all three of those things aren't consistent assets in how he surpasses his obstacles, and play a role more in how people generalize and prejudge Luffy. They hint that something's special about him, but that doesn't mean the way to Raftel is paved for him and only him. At most, it's that he has the potential to make some big changes in the world.

Sure they are just things extremely rare things that happen to fall on our main character and makes him much more likely to achieve greatness than anyone else in the manga. Both D's and conqueror has been made to be special. D's create storms in the world, conquerors become the great kings of the word and he his granpa and papa are the most public figure of the marines and revolution.

But sure in a purely theoretical level he could have been a minor individual. He would need to try really hard to manage that but it is not strictly impossible. Neither is recruiting someone with that special haki. You probably have better odds finding that than being able to read the stones or Luffy failing at big shot.

And that's all just because Conquerer's Haki is Oda's narrative way of hyping up characters. So of course he's going to shove it onto every big name nowadays. That doesn't actually mean that you need it to come this far in the story. It's merely a trait to expect out of big names than the reason why they're present. When people get wrecked by a Yonko or Doflamingo, they're wrecked because they're weaker overall (and lack plot armor). It's Oda's arbitrary preference for hyped big shot characters to probably have Conquerer's Haki. Just look at how far Mihawk came, assuming he doesn't have it. He didn't need it. The other Worst Generation members are still relevant threats (or at least Oda somehow wants us to think that lol), even though we all know they'll probably become Luffy's cheerleaders whether they like it or not.

My point was no one will fail because of lacking that haki, they fail because they couldn't make it. Those who have a real shot at becoming pirate king have it. Most of the great of the world were born with that thing. It is not a coincidence. It's proof that they have the cockiness to consider greatness is for them and confidence that attract people around them and make it far.

They have drive to recruit the man power and the tools necessary to succeed. Is Mihawk great? Yes. Is he going to commit to amassing the power and knowledge needed to navigate this sea, search unreadable stones to then find some convoluted way to read them? Hell no. Anyone who have a real shot at the title of pirate king is going to need more than strength. They are going to need leadership and shitload of ressources or luck. Anyone who can get to pirate king either can get someone with that haki or has it. Those who don't never had a chance.

And let's made it clear that the supernovas aren't serious contenders.

Conquerer's Haki isn't anything like being the Avatar, where you have a prophecy everybody knows is focused on one person from the get-go and need to rely on using/mastering all four elements to save the day. Conquerer's is just this minute genetic trait that doesn't play any major narrative role besides making the crowd go wild. It's randomly inherited, it's useless (for now), and it goes against One Piece's themes of ambitious dreams, willpower, bonds, and training being prevalent sources of power. Which is why I don't like a rare genetic trait like Conquerer's being essential for Raftel access after how much this series has talked about how the Age of Pirates beautifully inspires all of the different shades of morality in the world to act and achieve their dreams.

Oda also made prevalence of the power of inheritance and the presence of destiny.

I don't think that haki will help in the search but they are much restrictive factor(reading the stones) in place that makes that criticism weird. And how special Luffy already is (D.,lineage,haki,destiny)and has greatness marked all over his background makes the criticism even weirder.

[Razh]

I think it's better to look at Coc not as a cause but as an effect. Leader types aren't what they are because they inherited CoC from someone. It is who they are that allows them to achieve the potential. Luffy probably wouldn't awaken if, instead of opting to go through many difficult situations that made him go tougher and tougher, he decided to live his life peacefully, working on a farm or waiting tables at Makino's.

I don't think every person who was born with CoC potential manages to awaken it. Or rather, I'd prefer it. Because the opposite leaves bad taste in my mouth, like Count's. It implies the person is being led by chains of fate or genetics from the moment of its birth, without taking into account the journey a person goes through and how it affects its development.

Still, the problem remains with the leading figures which came on top but haven't awakened CoC. Are they worse leaders or better leaders, considering they've done it without magic aura buff? I noticed you guys mentioned Crocodile (don't have time for more than skim through atm). He compensated for his lack of CoC with intelligence, so to say. Someone else might do it with brute force or an OP ability, or wealth or connections. But it will only take them so far, because we know only CoC(ks) will have a real chance in the end.

[ARTEMlS]

@Razh:

I think it's better to look at Coc not as a cause but as an effect.

Exactly this. We shall not forget that haki literally means ambition, and therefore CoC is the ambition of a conqueror. Considering that peoples' personalities are genetically imbued to a certain degree, we have a special genetic disposition as the cause which results in the ability to unlock CoC as effect. Like in the real world where some people have the potential to get charismatic leaders whereas other… well, no matter the circumstances just never ever are even remotely able to pull it off. Like even if they are born as throne heir in an absolute monarchy and everyone worships them, they just cannot properly do the leadership role because of their personality traits.

I think what describes best what makes you capable of CoC is charisma instead of leadership. For example Don Krieg, is he a leader? Sure. But is he charismatic in any way? Nope. He's your average strong school bully who makes you obey him by sheer brute force and fear. But that's just it. Instead of being able to conquer someone/something physically, you must actually be able to conquer other persons' heart.

And yes, not everyone who has the potential necessarily will awaken it, this also depends on the circumstances like how their life turns out. I actually think all Strawhats might have the potential, though most of them will never awaken it - considering their life turned out in the way we saw - like they finally met Luffy and joined him which removed the need to awaken it to a huge degree. What I mean is that you also can obtain it without being ridiculously strong and overpowered in theory whereas in reality (given by shonen logic) of course almost everyone who has it also is super powerful.

[desa]

@Razh:

I think it's better to look at Coc not as a cause but as an effect.

I do but I'm mostly not a fan of born for greatness and would have prefer for Big Mom and Kaido to not have it.

[Count Mario]

@Razh:

I think it's better to look at Coc not as a cause but as an effect. Leader types aren't what they are because they inherited CoC from someone. It is who they are that allows them to achieve the potential. Luffy probably wouldn't awaken if, instead of opting to go through many difficult situations that made him go tougher and tougher, he decided to live his life peacefully, working on a farm or waiting tables at Makino's.

@ARTEMlS:

Exactly this. We shall not forget that haki literally means ambition, and therefore CoC is the ambition of a conqueror. Considering that peoples' personalities are genetically imbued to a certain degree, we have a special genetic disposition as the cause which results in the ability to unlock CoC as effect. Like in the real world where some people have the potential to get charismatic leaders whereas other… well, no matter the circumstances just never ever are even remotely able to pull it off. Like even if they are born as throne heir in an absolute monarchy and everyone worships them, they just cannot properly do the leadership role because of their personality traits.

I can totally agree with what you guys are saying. Those with leadership qualities cultivated over their lives can "earn" Conquerer's while those who may have have the potential but never build up the qualities don't awaken it. That can work. It's just that… What about the people who build up leadership qualities and aren't genetically blessed with the gift of Conquerer's? It's pretty cheap to exclude them, especially if they include guys like Crocodile, who are charismatic and effective leaders (as seen when he recruited back Daz Bones in Impel Down and presumably has plans post-timeskip, although I doubt he'll ever become as evil as he was in Alabasta again). You can say that Oda will have any relevant endgame captains have Conquerer's Haki, but plot convenience like that is not enough for me to ignore something that is still fate-biased in the grand scheme of things which still restricts people who have legit qualities in such a wide world. It's still a bit of "being born for greatness".

Seriously, why did this even have to be a genetic trait in the first place? It would have worked exactly the same if everyone could theoretically access this type of Haki like Observation and Armament, but is the hardest one to manifest due to requiring charismatic leadership qualities built-up over time. The genetic origins is such an unnecessary detail. Maybe there's lore behind it waiting to be revealed, but still.

[Razh]

I can't disagree, considering I mentioned the same thing in my last paragraph. So yes, for me it's a flawed concept for now. Not as much as CoA, but still.

And even CoO is starting to near the borders of plausibility, considering we now discovered Potato has limited foresight. Unless that translation sucked, he saw that the organ trader would kill 2 of Bege's men. I can still buy it if he could read the intent to shoot particular persons, though.

[Count Mario]

@Razh:

I can't disagree, considering I mentioned the same thing in my last paragraph. So yes, for me it's a flawed concept for now. Not as much as CoA, but still.

And even CoO is starting to near the borders of plausibility, considering we now discovered Potato has limited foresight. Unless that translation sucked, he saw that the organ trader would kill 2 of Bege's men. I can still buy it if he could read the intent to shoot particular persons, though.

But then he would just have normal Observation Haki.

I wish Haki never existed. Aside from normal Armament.

[The Tenth Strawhat]

Man, Haki (except CoO imo) is just confusing for two reasons: wasn't clearly shown at first or not enough info. I can see why it's such a hot topic everywhere in AP.

[desa]

@Count:

I can totally agree with what you guys are saying. Those with leadership qualities cultivated over their lives can "earn" Conquerer's while those who may have have the potential but never build up the qualities don't awaken it. That can work. It's just that… What about the people who build up leadership qualities and aren't genetically blessed with the gift of Conquerer's? It's pretty cheap to exclude them, especially if they include guys like Crocodile, who are charismatic and effective leaders (as seen when he recruited back Daz Bones in Impel Down and presumably has plans post-timeskip, although I doubt he'll ever become as evil as he was in Alabasta again). You can say that Oda will have any relevant endgame captains have Conquerer's Haki, but plot convenience like that is not enough for me to ignore something that is still fate-biased in the grand scheme of things which still restricts people who have legit qualities in such a wide world. It's still a bit of "being born for greatness".

Garp is the most famous marine out there and he doesn't seems to have it. Mihawk seems to be doing fine on his own and does not have it either. There's plenty of people who are considered as "big names" who does not seems to posess it. So your problem could not be success only come to those with this haki. So it could be that without it you can't find the one piece. But in this case all you have to do is recruit a person that has it. If you can climb high enough to be within reach of accessing it you should be able to do that much. I mean reading the stone is much more difficult than that(even now only Robin can). Being a D is much less likely.

Then again I considered the game rigged the moment being a D. was made special. Then later Luffy became the only one with someone to read the stones(even today no else can). Then he revealed to be from a lineage of greatness. So that the line would be that haki which while rare is distributed among other big players seems weird.

An analogy would be if on a olympic race Luffy recieved stimulants but you discarded it as a simple advantage. But as soon as 8(including Luffy) of the 12 runners were revealed to have taken another powerful drug that's when everything suddenly became unfair for the rest.

Seriously, why did this even have to be a genetic trait in the first place? It would have worked exactly the same if everyone could theoretically access this type of Haki like Observation and Armament, but is the hardest one to manifest due to requiring charismatic leadership qualities built-up over time. The genetic origins is such an unnecessary detail. Maybe there's lore behind it waiting to be revealed, but still.

Pretty sure genetic and destiny became a thing as soon as the D. became special. Plus that shark lady that can read the future with certainty.

[Count Mario]

@desa:

Garp is the most famous marine out there and he doesn't seems to have it. Mihawk seems to be doing fine on his own and does not have it either. There's plenty of people who are considered as "big names" who does not seems to posess it. So your problem could not be success only come to those with this haki. So it could be that without it you can't find the one piece. But in this case all you have to do is recruit a person that has it. If you can climb high enough to be within reach of accessing it you should be able to do that much. I mean reading the stone is much more difficult than that(even now only Robin can). Being a D is much less likely.

Then again I considered the game rigged the moment being a D. was made special. Then later Luffy became the only one with someone to read the stones(even today no else can). Then he revealed to be from a lineage of greatness. So that the line would be that haki which while rare is distributed among other big players seems weird.

An analogy would be if on a olympic race Luffy recieved stimulants but you discarded it as a simple advantage. But as soon as 8(including Luffy) of the 12 runners were revealed to have taken another powerful drug that's when everything suddenly became unfair for the rest.

Except that what are the chances of being able to find somebody with Conquerer's though? That is extremely random. Finding someone to read a Poneglyph is rarer, but only because the World Government made sure to get rid of any traces of them. The latter makes sense in the scope of the plot rather the former comes in whenever it's convenient for the plot. If a non-Conquerer Luffy recruited anybody with Conquerer's, it would be through sheer luck. Or… Ugh, fate, I guess.

And learning to read Poneglyphs is still a skill that people can learn with the proper resources, not something that's cheaply genetic-based. This isn't about which is harder as much as how finding the One Piece, as a dream that stands along other dreams in the series that don't seem to be inherent biased, is earned through skill rather than a specific ability you either have or you don't. Luffy or a crewmate having Conquerer's doesn't change that. You might ask what's the difference between that and needing positions like a navigator and shipwright on your crew, but those are still manual skills that are learnable and are open to a wide array of methodology and interpretation for each individual's flaws and advantages. That, and nobody knows that Conquerer's is essential to get to Raftel while info about the Poneglyphs is at least revealed on the final island.

The thing about D's is that even though they have this whole special image, that doesn't automatically guarantee them achieving their dreams or even give them a leg up in achieving them. They just get a vague promise of initiating major consequences and becoming enemies of Celestial Dragons. They'll be important in the final arcs, but they don't really seem to have any fixed abilities that automatically make them superior to others. It actually seems to cause more trouble than it's actually worth. I can concede that it's sort of fate. But it's a very loose concept of fate that's open to all sorts of general possibilities than a set path. It's not the type that actually gives you superpowers or sets up a specific gig for you. It's nowhere near a specific straight-arrow prophecy as other series, but that can easily change as more info is divulged.

Pretty sure genetic and destiny became a thing as soon as the D. became special. Plus that shark lady that can read the future with certainty.

Fate was introduced with those things. But Oda's been very loose with the concept though, as if it's more of a blank slate than specific foresight. In a good, tolerable way that isn't strict and makes them destined to accomplish whatever they want at birth or be more skilled than other people. They still earn everything they learn and have freedom in their choices. They're just bound to eventually make big effects in the world. Even with Sharley's prediction, it's open to a lot of perspective as to how the event will occur. And Katakuri goes to show that fate is actually malleable with foresight. But I doubt that Oda is actually connecting every instance of fate into being the same type of fate. I think he just introduces fate-based abilities like Katakuri and Sharley's on a complete whim because he's serendipitous like that and wants to make up stuff to make the stakes of the plot more exciting.

[ARTEMlS]

I don't agree about the concept of CoC being flawed. However, whereas I consider the concept itself actually great in theory, it's definitely somewhat flawed in execution.

I guess charisma comes close, but doesn't fully encompass the necessary criteria. It goes in the direction of mental strength. What I mean is the X factor, that certain (indefinable???) something.

Is Crocodile charismatic? Sure. Is he mentally strong? Well yes…? To some degree definitely. But is he THAT mentally strong? No! After his defeat at Whitebeard he completely gave up his dream and high likely also his core beliefs. It's a little stretch, but I think after that defeat one of his most trusted friends actually betrayed him and gave him in for the bounty as well as the own acquittal - which led to the aforementioned change of core beliefs.

So what makes out that special something? It's about not getting caught in someone others' pace - or at least not getting caught by it that easily in case of some really extreme situations. For example, here's a real world example of someone not having that something. Let's look at the reactions of most politicans and royals after the recent terrorist incidents. What they do is deposing wreaths and getting engulfed in negative emotions like sadness and anger. They are completely caught in the terrorists' pace. Someone, however, who had this special something, has the ability to better resist these negative emotions. Especially if you are not personally involved. Yes, reaction emotionally like every normal human is... normal. But that's exactly the point, the real world equivalent of having CoC potential is having an exceptionally mental strength. A mental strength that only 1 of a million - or even less! - has.

And speaking of incredibly extreme situations whereas of course everyone can get caught by them, however, a mentally incredibly strong person actually can overcome it completely over time. The pinnacle of mental strength is forgiving the unforgivable. For example, there's Eva Kor who is a KZ survivor who lost basically everyone and everything she loved back then and after around 50 years she managed to be able to completely forgive Hitler and everyone from the NS regime. That women really CONQUERED Hitler and everything that remained from the past. It's not some mystery stuff what gives you the possibility to achieve CoC, instead it is a very special emotional and mental strength that is so rare that one of a million, if anything, even is an understatement.

So that's how CoC should work in theory, but the execution definitely is flawed. I mean is someone like Chinjao really such a special person? Instaed of actually getting over it by REEEEEALLY trying to get his treasures, to get his head restored or just try it again and go for other treasures, he just was completely grudgy and revenge-driven. Definitely not CoC worthy.

And yes, I expect Nami to pull off in 2~3 years for what her real life equivalent needed around 50 years - because she is THAT awesome.

[Count Mario]

@ARTEMlS:

Is Crocodile charismatic? Sure. Is he mentally strong? Well yes…? To some degree definitely. But is he THAT mentally strong? No! After his defeat at Whitebeard he completely gave up his dream and high likely also his core beliefs. It's a little stretch, but I think after that defeat one of his most trusted friends actually betrayed him and gave him in for the bounty as well as the own acquittal - which led to the aforementioned change of core beliefs.

You mean like how Luffy had a mental breakdown after failing to save Ace and needed Jimbei to keep his mind in the game about what he still had left, his crew, while Crocodile and certainly Moria didn't have that type of fortunate privilege? And it's easy to say that Crocodile merely lost, but the fact that it's implied he lost his hand due to Whitebeard, had his gender changed (probably due to some sort of insecurity given his reactions to Ivankov and how Oda wrote Kuina's situation of the fear of women growing weaker), and heavily criticized Whitebeard for allowing Squard to stab him even in his old age shows that Crocodile's defeat happened in a way that was absolutely mortifying. Something above the likes of Don Krieg running away to Paradise after a random encounter with Mihawk and trying to steal the Baratie as a new ship.

And Ace, someone who inherited Conquerer's Haki, also got his dreams sheathed by Whitebeard. And like Chinjao, he let his emotions drive him into a state of petty revenge that got him multiple beatings from failed assassination attempts until he started liking Newgate.

Anybody is going to have their emotions and mindset immensely shift or devolve after having their ambitions potentially shattered when they lose. Ambitions are very strong things. If Luffy found out that the rest of his crew died after getting flown away by Kuma, he would not have been able to recover for sure. Having the quality of a Conquerer does not mean that your mindset can't shift after you lose. It just means that you learn. I'm pretty sure that Big Mom and Kaido are going to learn a thing or two once Luffy inevitably makes their worlds flip upside down whether he overcomes them physically or not.

[ARTEMlS]

@Count:

If Luffy found out that the rest of his crew died after getting flown away by Kuma, he would not have been able to recover for sure.

This is the point where I heavily disagree. Of course, CoC people can have emotional crisises and mental breakdowns, and I do not intend to downplay Croc's or Moria's fates. No their situations were comparable or even more terrible. What makes the difference is that Luffy in the long run (which might be years, though) would recover even from losing all of his crewmates and, that's another crucial difference, he would be able to do so on his own accord, that is, even if no one else would support him. Of course, it'll take MUCH longer - as, of course, without Jinbe he would get over Marineford way harder. But the point is in the end he would have the ability to pull it off. That is what a conquer differentiates from others. A conqueror is better in conquering emotions and inner demons - caused by extrinsic factors.

[Razh]

@ARTEMlS:

I don't agree about the concept of CoC being flawed. However, whereas I consider the concept itself actually great in theory, it's definitely somewhat flawed in execution.

I guess charisma comes close, but doesn't fully encompass the necessary criteria. It goes in the direction of mental strength. What I mean is the X factor, that certain (indefinable???) something.

Is Crocodile charismatic? Sure. Is he mentally strong? Well yes…? To some degree definitely. But is he THAT mentally strong? No! After his defeat at Whitebeard he completely gave up his dream and high likely also his core beliefs. It's a little stretch, but I think after that defeat one of his most trusted friends actually betrayed him and gave him in for the bounty as well as the own acquittal - which led to the aforementioned change of core beliefs.

The thing with Crocodile is that he's too intelligent to be reckless. And so he holed up on Grand Line, biding his time, looking for the weapon that would maximally reduce the odds of failure. It seems Oda believes a true conqueror has to be somewhat reckless and willing to take unnecessary risks in order to be successful. And that also stands in some cases, I guess. But I'd be content with an explanation like that. Crocodile just didn't have enough crazy to acquire Conqueror Haki.

But then we have a counter example with Dofla. He basically did the same thing Crocodile did.

And then we have Don Chinjao, who got beaten by Garp and never got over it. Shouldn't a real Conqueror move on? Crocodile tanked completely, lost everything, and now he's going at it once again. I'd really be happy if he has CoC now.

[desa]

@Count:

Except that what are the chances of being able to find somebody with Conquerer's though? That is extremely random. Finding someone to read a Poneglyph is rarer, but only because the World Government made sure to get rid of any traces of them. The latter makes sense in the scope of the plot rather the former comes in whenever it's convenient for the plot. If a non-Conquerer Luffy recruited anybody with Conquerer's, it would be through sheer luck. Or… Ugh, fate, I guess.

Convenient? Luffy recruiting someone with the perfect ability by luck/fate? Remember how Luffy found the only person able to read the stone by luck. I mean any other strawhats got recruited for their skills(even Chopper was taken as a doctor by Nami). Robin is literally the one taken because she could hang out and conveniently/luckily happened to be have a unique ability and be the key to getting to raftel.

The Oharan massacre happened 22 years. 2 years after Roger's death. So the impossibility to read the stones is pretty much as old as the search for a pirate king itself. And even before that the Oharan made the best to keep their ability a secret and even today people with the ability is taboo and people try to stay under the radar. They were a secret sect of about 30 people.This haki is not a secret. If you have the kind of network that can procure ou a robin there's no reason you can't track a young Ace or Doflamingo( both showed it at young age).

I'm not even criticizing that you hate the idea(I'm not a fan myself) but that you are clearly jumping trough hoops and bending the reality of the manga to make it seems the problem you are complaining about does not already exist. I mean a theoretical universe where a shitload of people knows the 800 years old dead language people with conqueror could just as well be that badass guild that lend their service to those powerful enough to get to the one piece. I'm not even sure how Raftel would not be a regular difficult island in that universe.

And learning to read Poneglyphs is still a skill that people can learn with the proper resources, not something that's cheaply genetic-based. This isn't about which is harder as much as how finding the One Piece, as a dream that stands along other dreams in the series that don't seem to be inherent biased, is earned through skill rather than a specific ability you either have or you don't. Luffy or a crewmate having Conquerer's doesn't change that. You might ask what's the difference between that and needing positions like a navigator and shipwright on your crew, but those are still manual skills that are learnable and are open to a wide array of methodology and interpretation for each individual's flaws and advantages. That, and nobody knows that Conquerer's is essential to get to Raftel while info about the Poneglyphs is at least revealed on the final island.

A-I'm fairly sure being a doctor or shipwright is not art where you do whatever you want. So I'm gonna suppose you are talking about how you apply your skills for which I will point there's a different methodology between Luffy and Doflamingo and that there is different flaws and advantages to them.
B-We literally just learned about the supposedly known fact of needing to assemble superstones to get to raftel. Hell the well reknowed Vinsmokes got just revealed to us(still bs but still happened). Between that and that the information about One Piece being stuck in hidden stones written in a dead language I'm sure a couple of surprise revealed would not be surprising.
C-I would say Oda also made clear that getting to one piece was supposed team effort which in itself is already different than other dreams. Except of course if you imagine one individual who is both great at everything technical and is superstrong and a great detective. But I would say that goes about that chapter where Luffy explain to Arlong each person have their place and his is to kick ass and be the leader. Plus that the only pirate without a crew we know is Mihawk.
D-I would say the becoming the pirate king is about a lot including the ability to arrange a top crew. Allies also seems to be an important thing. Gathering people and help you do stuff.

The thing about D's is that even though they have this whole special image, that doesn't automatically guarantee them achieving their dreams or even give them a leg up in achieving them. They just get a vague promise of initiating major consequences and becoming enemies of Celestial Dragons. They'll be important in the final arcs, but they don't really seem to have any fixed abilities that automatically make them superior to others. It actually seems to cause more trouble than it's actually worth. I can concede that it's sort of fate. But it's a very loose concept of fate that's open to all sorts of general possibilities than a set path. It's not the type that actually gives you superpowers or sets up a specific gig for you. It's nowhere near a specific straight-arrow prophecy as other series, but that can easily change as more info is divulged.

Considering the extensive extensive posts you do in comics and mangas plus the whole twisting you do in that paragraph I would say you definitely know the bold part are BS.

But let's pretend you actually think thye don't have a leg up. You say they have a promise of initiating major consequences. Luffy is a pirate going for the price that will create some of the biggest consequences of that world. So his promise makes him have a higher chance of achieving the goal that effectively accomplish his promise.

More trouble than it is worth? Luffy has one of the most mundane backstory of his crew and even got his brother back, Garp had a kickass life, Roger had a kickass life and die with a big grin and a colossal fuck you to the government, Blackbeard keeps stumbling into piles of gold, Dragon is the biggest thorn in the government foot… What makes them more unhappy or unsuccesful than the average one piece character? The 2 with a shitty life story would be Ace and Law. But that seems pretty low to make D.'s life tragedies and seems to be a pretty common stuff for one piece characters.

Fate was introduced with those things. But Oda's been very loose with the concept though, as if it's more of a blank slate than specific foresight. In a good, tolerable way that isn't strict and makes them destined to accomplish whatever they want at birth or be more skilled than other people. They still earn everything they learn and have freedom in their choices. They're just bound to eventually make big effects in the world. Even with Sharley's prediction, it's open to a lot of perspective as to how the event will occur. And Katakuri goes to show that fate is actually malleable with foresight. But I doubt that Oda is actually connecting every instance of fate into being the same type of fate. I think he just introduces fate-based abilities like Katakuri and Sharley's on a complete whim because he's serendipitous like that and wants to make up stuff to make the stakes of the plot more exciting.

It's not like people with that haki have to become pirate king. Ace wanted it for someone else for example. Pretty sure Dogtooth just have good haki while Sharklady see the future. One is presented as a badass pushing his ability to great height while the other is actual matter of fact future.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@Count:

And Ace, someone who inherited Conquerer's Haki, also got his dreams sheathed by Whitebeard. And like Chinjao, he let his emotions drive him into a state of petty revenge that got him multiple beatings from failed assassination attempts until he started liking Newgate.

Well in Ace case supposedly all he ever wanted was to be liked despite the shadow of his father and a place to belong(which he never found). Plus he did get to continue to kick people ass and make a name even under Whitebeard. So he didn't really change his dream he just tried another route(and failed).

Although I guess Ace does make an argument for mental fortitude hard.

[Count Mario]

@desa:

Convenient? Luffy recruiting someone with the perfect ability by luck/fate? Remember how Luffy found the only person able to read the stone by luck. I mean any other strawhats got recruited for their skills(even Chopper was taken as a doctor by Nami). Robin is literally the one taken because she could hang out and conveniently/luckily happened to be have a unique ability and be the key to getting to raftel.

The Oharan massacre happened 22 years. 2 years after Roger's death. So the impossibility to read the stones is pretty much as old as the search for a pirate king itself. And even before that the Oharan made the best to keep their ability a secret and even today people with the ability is taboo and people try to stay under the radar. They were a secret sect of about 30 people.This haki is not a secret. If you have the kind of network that can procure ou a robin there's no reason you can't track a young Ace or Doflamingo( both showed it at young age).

I'm not even criticizing that you hate the idea(I'm not a fan myself) but that you are clearly jumping trough hoops and bending the reality of the manga to make it seems the problem you are complaining about does not already exist. I mean a theoretical universe where a shitload of people knows the 800 years old dead language people with conqueror could just as well be that badass guild that lend their service to those powerful enough to get to the one piece. I'm not even sure how Raftel would not be a regular difficult island in that universe.

Your statement about Luffy finding Robin through sheer luck would be accurate, if it wasn't for the fact that they had to "earn" by rescuing her from the World Government. So her joining the crew isn't really a cheap narrative device that instantly gave the Straw Hats a step up above everybody else. Haki's not a secret, but Conquerer's is still a genetic trait. And Robin still learned the language as a normal human kid. With a Devil Fruit, but that hardly changes anything in her Ohara backstory besides getting people to call her a freak.

Both showed Conquerer's Haki to very few people that happened to be in the vicinity. Regardless, I'm not trying to argue over whether Conquerer's Haki is the hardest thing to come by anymore. I'm arguing that it's the cheapest thing to come by considering how the structure of One Piece's story is. Nobody knows that Conquerer's Haki is needed to access Raftel, assuming it's necessary. If anything, it's just assumed that most strong New World captain competitors are going to automatically have it. But on the off chance that you make for an effective charismatic leader as much as they do, and weren't blessed with it at birth, you won't have it. So when you try to go to Raftel you're either, you're going to be completely mystified and have to backtrack to find someone with Conquerer's if your crew does not conveniently have one despite making it all the way to finding the island. That's so dumb and needlessly complex because people need to be born special for the sake of being born special because it sounds cool.

Conquerer's being essential does not break the story. You can theoretically find someone with it, and likely more easily than finding someone who reads Poneglyphs. It just slightly spoils the consistent theming of dreams focusing on ambition, work, and dedication that every other dream shown in the series presents. Some are a bit talented from the get-go like Nami and Usopp, others have to go through years of discipline to learn the craft like Zoro, Sanji, and Chopper. But their dreams all still focus on work. There's nothing saying that you NEED to be a transforming Zoan creature to become the best doctor. There's nothing saying that you have to be a cyborg in order to create the best ship, or manipulate souls to be a great musician and reunite with your best friend/pet. These are just the paths that characters picked out of sheer preference, and they worked to make sure they were successful. Conquerer's Haki doesn't have that merit though. That comes from two steps. You're born with it, and you end up becoming a charismatic leader. There's no way to earn or refine it besides improving your overall strength/character at most.

A-I'm fairly sure being a doctor or shipwright is not art where you do whatever you want. So I'm gonna suppose you are talking about how you apply your skills for which I will point there's a different methodology between Luffy and Doflamingo and that there is different flaws and advantages to them.

There's a specific line of skills that you need to learn. Skills that don't require birthrights and have varying ranges of execution. And there are people who may be better in a certain technique than others, or have resources that other's don't have, and a whole array of factors at play. Not every shipwright is going to come up with a ship that's powered by cola like Franky instead of something they may specialize in themselves. Kureha and Ivankov are both healers, but have radically different specialties and experiences.

B-We literally just learned about the supposedly known fact of needing to assemble superstones to get to raftel. Hell the well reknowed Vinsmokes got just revealed to us(still bs but still happened). Between that and that the information about One Piece being stuck in hidden stones written in a dead language I'm sure a couple of surprise revealed would not be surprising.

If we never learned the truth about the Poneglyphs from Nekomamushi and Inurashi, then we just would have learned that Poneglyph reading is needed at the final island. Then the story would devolve into a search for someone who can read Poneglyphs, but as difficult and rare as readers are, it's still a thematically consistent profession that doesn't require genetic abilities to accomplish. There's Pudding's race, but she's still one option whereas you could also try to track down Oharan scholar survivors or gain wind of the Kozuki Family, both groups being made up of people who learn their craft even if it is a secret.

The Vinsmokes are a part of a long line of learning about random supposedly powerful threats that Oda likes to hype up but aren't really all that much of a big deal. They're just standard arc antagonists whose relevance probably only goes as far as connecting to the Reverie and teasing Vegapunk/Lineage Factors. They're not anything that special, and are only important because of their connection to Sanji. Unlike major figures like the Yonko, who Oda will make sure to build-up the presence of early.

C-I would say Oda also made clear that getting to one piece was supposed team effort which in itself is already different than other dreams. Except of course if you imagine one individual who is both great at everything technical and is superstrong and a great detective. But I would say that goes about that chapter where Luffy explain to Arlong each person have their place and his is to kick ass and be the leader. Plus that the only pirate without a crew we know is Mihawk.

D-I would say the becoming the pirate king is about a lot including the ability to arrange a top crew. Allies also seems to be an important thing. Gathering people and help you do stuff.

A team effort that, so far, does not automatically require birthrights to be included. They're a team made up of people who are contributing abilities that they have cultivated and refined over time. And if they do have rare natural abilities, it's not absolutely essential for what their dreams are. Building a team is simply about having enough basic humility and common sense to realize that you don't have enough time, interest, or power to play multiple ship roles at once when venturing on the most dangerous seas. It's still not the type of story where you need someone who is born for greatness. The overall dynamic is similar to achieving a solo dream, but with cooperation involved.

Considering the extensive extensive posts you do in comics and mangas plus the whole twisting you do in that paragraph I would say you definitely know the bold part are BS.

Please feel free to elaborate. I didn't know that the Will of D have you abilities like being able to bend the four elements, inherit the advanced reincarnated Chakra of world-creating sages, or Harry Potter in general. They still had to work hard to master their abilities, but certain opportunities are limited to them exclusively. Even with Conquerer's or the Voice of All Things, they're spread out beyond just the D's. But please, elaborate on how D's have any specific abilities besides extremely vague concepts of "being lucky/bless by fate", "becoming important people/making huge consequences", or "being eternal rivals of the Celestial Dragons". Those is nothing tangible or specific as advantages, and everything that every D accomplishes is earned by the skills they amass. I would absolutely love to know how I'm twisting a concept that everyone caught up to date with the manga or even anime already knows themselves. At best, they're made up of coincidences with sensical build-up that line up conveniently enough to give vague aura of fate, but not be anything concrete like actually having magic or divine beings manipulating stuff behind the scenes. One series' idea of fate does not have to be executed the same as another. There are entirely different degrees of execution you can accomplish.

There's a fine line between how fate in One Piece works compared to works like Berserk where there are actual divine forces at work. Or a specific laid out future you can't bypass (that's basically Sharley's fortune teller shtick, but that's such a remote instance that was barely explained that I don't think Oda put any real thought into its implications with how fate concepts recurrently work with bigger recurring concepts like the D's). To give an example, look at how Shiryu saved the Blackbeard Pirates and how the crew accredited it to fate. It lines up with the series' idea of fate, but like all of those insistences including this one, we see how it happens through a whole line of coincidences. This case being due to Luffy happening to invade Impel Down to rescue Ace at the same time. The coincidences seem almost surreal enough to make those benefitting to seem blessed, but in reality, it's still a line of coincidences. D's just end up passing by with enough of these coincidences, and that coupled with all of the stuff they earn through their valid efforts, to seem like they're divinely advantageous. It's a clever storytelling tactic to work in a fate-like concept, but not put your protagonist and other major characters on a literal pedestal with a crutch that literally makes them better than somebody else automatically. It's more or less just plot convenience/armor, which we joke about since know that the heroes will win but also knowing that they're still successful based on stuff that makes sense, except the characters actually acknowledge it exists.

The idea of fate with the D's is comparable to that of the Joestar Family. They all have obvious protagonist privileges and they're "fated" to all live short lives and fight recurring "fated" enemies like Dio, but there's nothing literally making all of these events happen for sure behind the scenes, as if all of time is an etched rock you can't defy (besides one guy's Stand at the end of Part 5, I guess lol). These are all just similar coincidences that people give magical credit to like how people give credibility to omens and lucky numbers. In fiction, it's all just acknowledge plot convenience. The D's can just be special Earth life/alien hybrid people that happen to always get involved in big stuff, and it happens so often that people call it fate when there's really nothing divine at work behind these coincidences besides… coincidences.

But let's pretend you actually think thye don't have a leg up. You say they have a promise of initiating major consequences. Luffy is a pirate going for the price that will create some of the biggest consequences of that world. So his promise makes him have a higher chance of achieving the goal that effectively accomplish his promise.

And there's nothing saying that accomplishing this vague idea makes him destined to become the Pirate King specifically. It just states that his actions will promote big effects in whatever he decides to do with his life. Some of those effects may work out in his favor, others may work as a hinderance (such as Luffy's actions indirectly benefitting people like Blackbeard as well, although he is also a D himself). There's not really a higher chance of Luffy achieving his goal moreso than the likelihood of a lot more variables and likely chaos being involved. His life's importance, ignoring how we know this story has to end with Luffy becoming the Pirate King, can easily end up being dedicated to dying for the benefit of other people like other D's and major figures in the One Piece world.

More trouble than it is worth? Luffy has one of the most mundane backstory of his crew and even got his brother back, Garp had a kickass life, Roger had a kickass life and die with a big grin and a colossal fuck you to the government, Blackbeard keeps stumbling into piles of gold, Dragon is the biggest thorn in the government foot… What makes them more unhappy or unsuccesful than the average one piece character? The 2 with a shitty life story would be Ace and Law. But that seems pretty low to make D.'s life tragedies and seems to be a pretty common stuff for one piece characters.

Garp had a kickass life of various life-and-death battles against Roger, that for all we know, had him survive by the edge of his teeth. And it resulted in his son defying him to become the World's Most Wanted Man and both of his grandsons becoming pirates (one of them getting murdered by a co. worker in front of him). Roger had a kickass life ripe with strife and danger that made him one of the most hated men in the world (hate which got inherited by his son), and ended up succumbing to a terminal illness. Teach doesn't spontaneously stumble into treasure, he pulls of stunts that should regularly get him killed and require years of patience and ruses from behind the shadows. And he's guaranteed to have some sort of tragic backstory from how Oda drew him as a child, not that it will justify how evil he is. And I think we both know that Teach isn't going to get a happy ending at the end of One Piece despite how far he'll come. Saul's whole fated purpose was supposedly protecting Robin and getting killed by a former partner. His life peaked at becoming a Vice Admiral. Rogue's life amounted to hooking up with the Pirate King hiding a kid in her womb on her own for less than two years before dying at childbirth. And Luffy's "mundane" backstory amounted to being raising in poverty, getting tortured, getting abused, evolve-or-die training, believing one of his foster brothers died, and getting taken hostage by a bandit.

Being a D suck. Hard. You can gain plenty of glory, sure, but you have to work for it. You can't just flaunt around your big D and expect fancy epithets and titles to come knocking at your door as if nobody else can earn them first or take them away. It constantly throws adversity and hardship at you. The only consistent factor seems to be that you'll be discriminated against early on and that you might get a couple of extra lives. Opportunities for you to go on and continue to risk your life even more than before.

It's not like people with that haki have to become pirate king. Ace wanted it for someone else for example. Pretty sure Dogtooth just have good haki while Sharklady see the future. One is presented as a badass pushing his ability to great height while the other is actual matter of fact future.

They don't have to become Pirate King. But in this theoretical discussion, it's still needed to become Pirate King whether the captain or a crewmate has it. So they can often get pulled into conflicts related to becoming Pirate King almost like fate whether they want to or not, which is a bit sad to think about.

Katakuri does just have really good Haki. Although Observation is about reading people's wills rather than objective foresight. So his type of future seeing is still technically a stretch, but who cares. We know the plan's gonna probably fail while he has almost nothing to do with how it falls apart anyways because the setup is too obvious.

It's a really vague future though. Oda doesn't seem to be willing to dabble deeper than generic event hype. Or at least, I hope so. Sharley's the one element that makes One Piece involve actual divine objectively specific unavoidable fate, but Oda's a serendipitous writer that dumps random non Devil Fruit/Haki abilities into all of his side characters without much elaborated explanations like hypnotization and split personalities enhancing power/speed and what not. And those all end up being very trope-y ideas that he clearly does because they look/sound cool to him. I could be wrong and that may get expanded upon, but I really REALLY hope I'm not.

Well in Ace case supposedly all he ever wanted was to be liked despite the shadow of his father and a place to belong(which he never found). Plus he did get to continue to kick people ass and make a name even under Whitebeard. So he didn't really change his dream he just tried another route(and failed).

Although I guess Ace does make an argument for mental fortitude hard.

I see what you mean. He ended up getting what he wanted in an unexpected way. But pettiness is a recurring feature of many of the D's, not just stubbornness.

[K. Kira XXIII]

Too many pages in between. But, if Coby got Haki, isn't it supposed to be something everyone has/can achieve? The colors~ are just a tendency towards a personality type. Call me superficial but yes I think Zoro will obtain it just by the parallels we got with his scar + position in the crew in comparison to Rayleigh. And, being the "King of the Swordsmen" sounds dumb as balls, but it is technically the same thing as the greatest swordman in the world. He is getting it, even if it an end game thing where he puts to sleep some plebs that want to take his title. I think considering that armament went from being able to touch the true bodies of devil fruit users to be a strength enhancer. And observation goes from reading intentions to seeing the future, maybe Voice of all things. Conqueror's is bound to have a distinct use besides fodder removal. The same way we got awakening.

[Count Mario]

@Tamiel:

But, if Coby got Haki, isn't it supposed to be something everyone has/can achieve?

He got Observation Haki, which anybody can learn with the proper training and varied talent. Not Conquerer's, which is a personality type ability on top of a bloodline trait.

It's definitely possible that Conquerer's may have its own secret use. I think Observation doesn't have a set path of mastery though. Moreso that any individual can master it in their own way. Like how Usopp can see through walls, Fujitora and Enel have very wide ranges of awareness, and Katakuri can see a bit into the future. Each of those abilities has uses that the others technically can't reciprocate (although Fujitora and Enel don't really need to see their enemies to do what Usopp can and more, but still lol).

[FolhaS]

Alright, just droping this out here.

Mother Bakkin and Mother Caramel are the same person.
To me, Caramel looks just like a younger version of Bakkin. Could be that it's simply Oda-style and both having a motherhood theme is a coincidence but I'm going to say it's not.

So what happened?
Pudding, and her memory alteration powers.

But why?
Because Pudding is not really one of Big Mom's daughters, hence why we haven't gotten her introduction box even after her evil side was shown, we still haven't learned all of it.

This is a thought I entertained this past week with no chapter and I didn't re-read this whole arc to double-check it so feel free to poke holes in it if you find any.
This kinda stuff needs to breath anyway.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@FolhaS:

so feel free to poke holes in it if you find any.

Okay, can't be. Their noses are different, also don't try with Gloriosa, she has other type of nose.

I came to here to theorize some shit… about the Yami Awakening.

Looking how Aokiji and mostly Akainu divided their respective change on Punk Hazard's landscape... and notions of Dragon, Ace and Crocodile about their secondary effects on enviroment. I would like to propose the effect of Yami as a kind of mist/rain/pressure that automatically cancels every power coming from a Devil Fruit... i'd try with it because the other option is Blackhole and that's a proper attack of Teach. Also, it's the best counterattack when fighting Luffy, a nice melee with a high risk for him to receive a full-quake on his normal face would be awesome.

[desa]

@Count:

Your statement about Luffy finding Robin through sheer luck would be accurate, if it wasn't for the fact that they had to "earn" by rescuing her from the World Government. So her joining the crew isn't really a cheap narrative device that instantly gave the Straw Hats a step up above everybody else. Haki's not a secret, but Conquerer's is still a genetic trait. And Robin still learned the language as a normal human kid. With a Devil Fruit, but that hardly changes anything in her Ohara backstory besides getting people to call her a freak.

So it's not luck because they fought for her after she was already a member. But if it was someone with the haki it would have been luck because they just happened to have it on there. Your definition of luck varies depending on what you need it to be at this point. I mean you cannot be talking about fighting for her as a way to say this one isn't luck when Luffy has fought for every member he has. And you can definitely see how She was not recruited by luck cannot be debunked by things that came after she joined.

Both showed Conquerer's Haki to very few people that happened to be in the vicinity. Regardless, I'm not trying to argue over whether Conquerer's Haki is the hardest thing to come by anymore. I'm arguing that it's the cheapest thing to come by considering how the structure of One Piece's story is. Nobody knows that Conquerer's Haki is needed to access Raftel, assuming it's necessary. If anything, it's just assumed that most strong New World captain competitors are going to automatically have it. But on the off chance that you make for an effective charismatic leader as much as they do, and weren't blessed with it at birth, you won't have it. So when you try to go to Raftel you're either, you're going to be completely mystified and have to backtrack to find someone with Conquerer's if your crew does not conveniently have one despite making it all the way to finding the island. That's so dumb and needlessly complex because people need to be born special for the sake of being born special because it sounds cool.

We don't know if those who know about the superstones don't know about such rule since they had years to fill it already but let's pretend it's not.

In your paragraph you acknowledge that the stones already force people to backtrack after having having done all the trip. So backtracking cannot be your problem. And since the instructions are on the superstones, they would know before going there since reading the superstones is the way to get the there.

Conquerer's being essential does not break the story. You can theoretically find someone with it, and likely more easily than finding someone who reads Poneglyphs. It just slightly spoils the consistent theming of dreams focusing on ambition, work, and dedication that every other dream shown in the series presents. Some are a bit talented from the get-go like Nami and Usopp, others have to go through years of discipline to learn the craft like Zoro, Sanji, and Chopper. But their dreams all still focus on work. There's nothing saying that you NEED to be a transforming Zoan creature to become the best doctor. There's nothing saying that you have to be a cyborg in order to create the best ship, or manipulate souls to be a great musician and reunite with your best friend/pet. These are just the paths that characters picked out of sheer preference, and they worked to make sure they were successful. Conquerer's Haki doesn't have that merit though. That comes from two steps. You're born with it, and you end up becoming a charismatic leader. There's no way to earn or refine it besides improving your overall strength/character at most.

If conqueror's spoil it it was already spoiled long before that. Will of D. and all that.

There's something to be said that you need work and dedication to gather the people and lead them all the way to the one piece. And it takes even more work and dedication to tame a conqueror into helping into your quest(just like you had to do with your navigator for example).

I'm not even sure why cyborg got brought into repairing ships, or transforming yourself got brought into medical field but let's play anyway.You think reindeer Chopper would be doing medical researched without his fruit . Or that Brook that died would will himself back to life and spends 50 years with no substainable ressources if not for his fruit. I would disagree on those.

Yes work is useful but it is also about using the proper method. Chopper spends years with the quack doctor and just managed to kill his patient/mentor. Only after awesome granny doctor does he learn to actually help people. Roger for all legendary he was had to start all over when he got to the last island and recruit someone due to not using the proper also.

There's a specific line of skills that you need to learn. Skills that don't require birthrights and have varying ranges of execution. And there are people who may be better in a certain technique than others, or have resources that other's don't have, and a whole array of factors at play. Not every shipwright is going to come up with a ship that's powered by cola like Franky instead of something they may specialize in themselves. Kureha and Ivankov are both healers, but have radically different specialties and experiences.

I would say Doflamingo and Whitebeard have a wide discrepancy in how they express their leadership and that becoming a leader is something you learn as you are doing. And if you are talking about the power itself you still have to awaken it then learn to control it and use it.

If we never learned the truth about the Poneglyphs from Nekomamushi and Inurashi, then we just would have learned that Poneglyph reading is needed at the final island. Then the story would devolve into a search for someone who can read Poneglyphs but as difficult and rare as readers are, it's still a thematically consistent profession that doesn't require genetic abilities to accomplish. There's Pudding's race, but she's still one option whereas you could also try to track down Oharan scholar survivors or gain wind of the Kozuki Family, both groups being made up of people who learn their craft even if it is a secret.

They would already have Robin so they would not be searching a way to read the stones.

Still requires awakening and most who do seems to have face hardships to be able to make use of it and Luffy already has it and trained to control that thing. So I supposed you are talking about others. Doflamingo took child and fed them the fruits useful to him and his conquest. It would be pretty consistent for him to indoctrinate a kid with that haki if he needed. Same with Crocodile who searched for Robin and proposed a job to Zoro.

The Vinsmokes are a part of a long line of learning about random supposedly powerful threats that Oda likes to hype up but aren't really all that much of a big deal. They're just standard arc antagonists whose relevance probably only goes as far as connecting to the Reverie and teasing Vegapunk/Lineage Factors. They're not anything that special, and are only important because of their connection to Sanji. Unlike major figures like the Yonko, who Oda will make sure to build-up the presence of early.

I also mentioned the superstones.

A team effort that, so far, does not automatically require birthrights to be included. They're a team made up of people who are contributing abilities that they have cultivated and refined over time. And if they do have rare natural abilities, it's not absolutely essential for what their dreams are. Building a team is simply about having enough basic humility and common sense to realize that you don't have enough time, interest, or power to play multiple ship roles at once when venturing on the most dangerous seas. It's still not the type of story where you need someone who is born for greatness. The overall dynamic is similar to achieving a solo dream, but with cooperation involved.

I am pretty sure Ace, Luffy, Chinjao and Doffly are considered useful by their crews. It's not like you are hiring someone that you just let seat around and daydream. In most cases they are even running the shop. Also sure wether you are talking leadership or mastering the haki itself they were not born into it. Whitebeard was even a simple crew member at some point. Also pretty sure Chopper need that fruit to be a doctor and Brook needed that fruit to be able to bring the song to Laboon.

Solo dreams requires the person to develop his skills for his benefice. Pirate king requires to put all your energy into making someone else great. Like being ready to die to Kuma or being stuck an in a island of Okama when you are a pervert.

Please feel free to elaborate. I didn't know that the Will of D have you abilities like being able to bend the four elements, inherit the advanced reincarnated Chakra of world-creating sages, or Harry Potter in general. They still had to work hard to master their abilities, but certain opportunities are limited to them exclusively. Even with Conquerer's or the Voice of All Things, they're spread out beyond just the D's. But please, elaborate on how D's have any specific abilities besides extremely vague concepts of "being lucky/bless by fate", "becoming important people/making huge consequences", or "being eternal rivals of the Celestial Dragons". Those is nothing tangible or specific as advantages, and everything that every D accomplishes is earned by the skills they amass. I would absolutely love to know how I'm twisting a concept that everyone caught up to date with the manga or even anime already knows themselves. At best, they're made up of coincidences with sensical build-up that line up conveniently enough to give vague aura of fate, but not be anything concrete like actually having magic or divine beings manipulating stuff behind the scenes. One series' idea of fate does not have to be executed the same as another. There are entirely different degrees of execution you can accomplish.

Harry merely got migraines thanks to his scar and Naruto had to start to from the bottom of the class and be considered a failure. Yet you still consider fate in their cases. They didn't gain magical powers no one had access to that you could not write as "coincidences" or "more trouble than they are worth". If the line you draw is in-universe that Shark lady should be enough to convince you.

that's basically Sharley's fortune teller shtick, but that's such a remote instance that was barely explained that I don't think Oda put any real thought into its implications with how fate concepts recurrently work with bigger recurring concepts like the D's.

So fate in the story doesn't exist even when there's someone that can read it.
Also the D's have been recognized as special plenty in the manga.

To give an example, look at how Shiryu saved the Blackbeard Pirates and how the crew accredited it to fate. It lines up with the series' idea of fate, but like all of those insistences including this one, we see how it happens through a whole line of coincidences. This case being due to Luffy happening to invade Impel Down to rescue Ace at the same time. The coincidences seem almost surreal enough to make those benefitting to seem blessed, but in reality, it's still a line of coincidences. D's just end up passing by with enough of these coincidences, and that coupled with all of the stuff they earn through their valid efforts, to seem like they're divinely advantageous.

What is your definition of fate and luck?

Anyway as you later say their actions gives birth major events. Either they are blessed or they are naturally good at it. So leg up.

It's a clever storytelling tactic to work in a fate-like concept, but not put your protagonist and other major characters on a literal pedestal with a crutch that literally makes them better than somebody else automatically.

When the story is suppose to take it as a coincidence the story and character treat it as such. Coincidences would be Luffy appearing on island just in time for trouble. No has yet to point it as weird therefore it is merely coincidence. Blackbeard's luck on the other hand is both abnormally big in the story and constantly brought up. Same thing with the will of D. being special or the storms they start. They are not presented as coincidences of the story but rather part of his narrative as both the world and character is aware of it.

It's more or less just plot convenience/armor, which we joke about since know that the heroes will win but also knowing that they're still successful based on stuff that makes sense, except the characters actually acknowledge it exists.

It works in Luffy's case. Not so much in Blackbeard's case which is constantly being brung into question and constantly referred as fate. And his bigger than average.

These are all just similar coincidences that people give magical credit to like how people give credibility to omens and lucky numbers. In fiction, it's all just acknowledge plot convenience. The D's can just be special Earth life/alien hybrid people that happen to always get involved in big stuff, and it happens so often that people call it fate when there's really nothing divine at work behind these coincidences besides… coincidences.

Law statement on the storms the D's bring, or awesome grandma's comment are not treated as the supposition of superstitious character but revelations about some of the working of the world of the story.

And there's nothing saying that accomplishing this vague idea makes him destined to become the Pirate King specifically. It just states that his actions will promote big effects in whatever he decides to do with his life.

Luffy is a pirate.

Some of those effects may work out in his favor, others may work as a hinderance (such as Luffy's actions indirectly benefitting people like Blackbeard as well, although he is also a D himself). There's not really a higher chance of Luffy achieving his goal moreso than the likelihood of a lot more variables and likely chaos being involved. His life's importance, ignoring how we know this story has to end with Luffy becoming the Pirate King, can easily end up being dedicated to dying for the benefit of other people like other D's and major figures in the One Piece world.

I'm not saying Luffy will become pirate king. I am saying his background makes him already well advantaged compared to most others(including supernovas). He possessed anything that in this world points to your future success. Hell the only other D. of the bunch happened to be here when the secret way(and map) to raftel is revealed in a silver plater.

Garp had a kickass life of various life-and-death battles against Roger, that for all we know, had him survive by the edge of his teeth. And it resulted in his son defying him to become the World's Most Wanted Man and both of his grandsons becoming pirates (one of them getting murdered by a co. worker in front of him).

Garp enjoyed the hell out of his life and was still doing so 2 years ago. Of course is life is not perfect and he faced some tragedy but that does not suddenly means his life sucked. He was happy both in chapter 0 and in the present of 2 years ago.

Roger had a kickass life ripe with strife and danger that made him one of the most hated men in the world (hate which got inherited by his son), and ended up succumbing to a terminal illness.

What we know of Roger is loved his friends, wanted to marked the world(first thing said to Ray), happily married, smiled a lot. The guy had such good relationship that he could have Sake with Whitebeard and have Garp raised his son. He even got to marked the world. He got the fame and respect he wanted, his friends love him(even Buggy cried), and died believing his son would lived happy under Garp.

Teach doesn't spontaneously stumble into treasure, he pulls of stunts that should regularly get him killed and require years of patience and ruses from behind the shadows.

Crocodile demotion, Ace apparition, the simultaneous escapes, Shiryuu… He is a pretty lucky fellow.

And he's guaranteed to have some sort of tragic backstory from how Oda drew him as a child, not that it will justify how evil he is. And I think we both know that Teach isn't going to get a happy ending at the end of One Piece despite how far he'll come.

We'll see. Oda could just throw him on a cell where he laughs that faith was not on his side.

Saul's whole fated purpose was supposedly protecting Robin and getting killed by a former partner. His life peaked at becoming a Vice Admiral.

Saul life did not not suck because the last day was awful.

Rogue's life amounted to hooking up with the Pirate King hiding a kid in her womb on her own for less than two years before dying at childbirth.

And prior to that she had a simple as far as we know.

And Luffy's "mundane" backstory amounted to being raising in poverty, getting tortured, getting abused, evolve-or-die training, believing one of his foster brothers died, and getting taken hostage by a bandit.

So you are the type to decide when someone's life suck regardless of what themselves feel. Of all that the only real sucking was the whole death of Sabo which Ace helped with. And I'm sure you noticed the mundane was compared to most of his crew.

Being a D suck. Hard.

If you consider so then being a one piece character is what suck hard not being a D. Pretty much any named character can be compared to what you described as life sucking.

You can gain plenty of glory, sure, but you have to work for it. You can't just flaunt around your big D and expect fancy epithets and titles to come knocking at your door as if nobody else can earn them first or take them away. It constantly throws adversity and hardship at you. The only consistent factor seems to be that you'll be discriminated against early on and that you might get a couple of extra lives. Opportunities for you to go on and continue to risk your life even more than before.

LAst sentence in itself means a leg up.

Also you say discriminated? There's Law because of his disease. Then the rest were not discriminated as far as we know. Ace felt awful because of being Roger's son but people couldn't discriminate against him when they didn't even know who he was.

They don't have to become Pirate King. But in this theoretical discussion, it's still needed to become Pirate King whether the captain or a crewmate has it. So they can often get pulled into conflicts related to becoming Pirate King almost like fate whether they want to or not, which is a bit sad to think about.

The title did not exist 24 years ago. Ace settled, Whitebeard said fuck it, Doffly had other plans, Handcock coudn't give less of a damn, Shanks and Ray are chilling.

Katakuri does just have really good Haki.

Thank you.

It's a really vague future though. Oda doesn't seem to be willing to dabble deeper than generic event hype. Or at least, I hope so. Sharley's the one element that makes One Piece involve actual divine objectively specific unavoidable fate, but Oda's a serendipitous writer that dumps random non Devil Fruit/Haki abilities into all of his side characters without much elaborated explanations like hypnotization and split personalities enhancing power/speed and what not. And those all end up being very trope-y ideas that he clearly does because they look/sound cool to him. I could be wrong and that may get expanded upon, but I really REALLY hope I'm not.

The story already acknowledge Shark lady as the real deal.

I see what you mean. He ended up getting what he wanted in an unexpected way. But pettiness is a recurring feature of many of the D's, not just stubbornness.

\Aside from Ace and his father how are the rest petty what do you mean by pettiness.

–- Update From New Post Merge ---

@FolhaS:

Alright, just droping this out here.

Mother Bakkin and Mother Caramel are the same person.
To me, Caramel looks just like a younger version of Bakkin. Could be that it's simply Oda-style and both having a motherhood theme is a coincidence but I'm going to say it's not.

So what happened?
Pudding, and her memory alteration powers.

But why?
Because Pudding is not really one of Big Mom's daughters, hence why we haven't gotten her introduction box even after her evil side was shown, we still haven't learned all of it.

This is a thought I entertained this past week with no chapter and I didn't re-read this whole arc to double-check it so feel free to poke holes in it if you find any.
This kinda stuff needs to breath anyway.

Pudding not being a daugther could be interesting but I doubt it.

[FolhaS]

@Shobu:

Okay, can't be. Their noses are different, also don't try with Gloriosa, she has other type of nose.

I came to here to theorize some shit… about the Yami Awakening.

Looking how Aokiji and mostly Akainu divided their respective change on Punk Hazard's landscape... and notions of Dragon, Ace and Crocodile about their secondary effects on enviroment. I would like to propose the effect of Yami as a kind of mist/rain/pressure that automatically cancels every power coming from a Devil Fruit... i'd try with it because the other option is Blackhole and that's a proper attack of Teach. Also, it's the best counterattack when fighting Luffy, a nice melee with a high risk for him to receive a full-quake on his normal face would be awesome.

Gloriosa is totally different.
I wasn't just going by "they're old and small".

But yeah, now I'm comparing the images on the wiki, the nose seems different along with a couple of other things, like the curve on the eyebrows.

But while I was checking that on the wiki, I noticed Pudding's café was named Caramel, so I'm keeping the connection to Pudding's powers.

[Shobu Yoruichi]

@FolhaS:

But while I was checking that on the wiki, I noticed Pudding's café was named Caramel, so I'm keeping the connection to Pudding's powers.

That part of your theory, i didn't want to touch it. Because after a post of Greg in the spoiler section about the café, i hinted exactly that… she's no daughter of Linlin.

After some chapters i lose my enthusiams about the theory, but it might be true... how come Big Mom had a child with an acquainted fellow of a strange race? and how this fellow isn't there to help her to hear the Poneglyph? In other words, Oda created Pudding as a character where everything about her can be truth or false, that's why i stop trying with her.

[Watch-man]

I would rather say that Sanji will show his trump card during this arc. Something he came up with during 2 years of training on Okama island - my 2 guesses would be that he can use CoA hardening along with Diable Jambe to create Blue Fire that can even melt steel - he has "Diable… " boiling red attacks so him getting blue fire as contrast along with some "Angelo.." sort of named attacks would be really really cool.

It would also make a lot of sense for him as he is a son of devil(Judge) and angel(Sora, his mother).

Second power up I expect I already mentioned few times sooo…

When I seen Baki Dou manga I thought that it could be cool if Sanji beside Sky Walk learned some of Life Return techniques that would make his body more buff and extremely sturdy and refined muscles but it would make him look a bit monstrous/okamish so thats why he avoided using it before- for example against Vergo. After that fight he thought to himself that "if fight would continue like that he would have.." with a frowned face.. I always seen that as bit weird as after loosing to Doflamingo where ha had no chance to win all of what Sanji shown was perverted face when thiking about Violet…

[Shadowgreed]

Morgan is going to steal the Fishman's treasure!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[FolhaS]

@Shobu:

That part of your theory, i didn't want to touch it. Because after a post of Greg in the spoiler section about the café, i hinted exactly that… she's no daughter of Linlin.

After some chapters i lose my enthusiams about the theory, but it might be true... how come Big Mom had a child with an acquainted fellow of a strange race? and how this fellow isn't there to help her to hear the Poneglyph? In other words, Oda created Pudding as a character where everything about her can be truth or false, that's why i stop trying with her.

I don't usually check the spoiler section, I prefer to read the chapter whole.
But I'm glad to know I'm not the only one connecting these dots.

Pudding has been a box full of surprises, this week's chapter showed that again.
I was not expecting her to get so disarmed and tearful.

[Watch-man]

@Shadowgreed:

Morgan is going to steal the Fishman's treasure!

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Somebody stealing Fishman Island Treasure box and then it exploding to that person face would also be sweet in a way. Though there was probably too much build up for Big Mom opening it..

My new theory is that Pekoms was brainwashed by Pudding in some way and thats why he is SO LOYAL to Big Mom.

[Monquito]

@Watch-man:

Somebody stealing Fishman Island Treasure box and then it exploding to that person face would also be sweet in a way. Though there was probably too much build up for Big Mom opening it..

.

yes, same as how, the ta-ta-tabasco sauce was supposed to be ate by Sugar.
tbh the tamatebako can still be opened by anyone, is just a matter on whom the plot requires to be defeated quickly. And I hardly think it would be BM.

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

I've been throwing around an idea in my head that Pudding's breakdown was an act and her character arc will still have one major element to it. We know fake crying is one of her specialties, so I've wondered whether or not this was part of a plan to sabotage the wedding. We all know Bege's plot is likely gonna fail, but if Pudding has something in mind, things might go differently for our heroes than originally anticipated. Maybe this is just wishful thinking for Pudding to do something huge, haha, but there certainly is potential for it.

[K. Kira XXIII]

@Kaido:

I've been throwing around an idea in my head that Pudding's breakdown was an act and her character arc will still have one major element to it. We know fake crying is one of her specialties, so I've wondered whether or not this was part of a plan to sabotage the wedding. We all know Bege's plot is likely gonna fail, but if Pudding has something in mind, things might go differently for our heroes than originally anticipated. Maybe this is just wishful thinking for Pudding to do something huge, haha, but there certainly is potential for it.

I think it is funny you say this because for a while I have been thinking that Pudding will break the 4th wall and we'll have some funky scenes where she is pulling memories from the readers. I do not think this will happen However, considering her powers, it would not be a stretch to see that she has manipulated her own memory.

[Count Mario]

@Kaido:

I've been throwing around an idea in my head that Pudding's breakdown was an act and her character arc will still have one major element to it. We know fake crying is one of her specialties, so I've wondered whether or not this was part of a plan to sabotage the wedding. We all know Bege's plot is likely gonna fail, but if Pudding has something in mind, things might go differently for our heroes than originally anticipated. Maybe this is just wishful thinking for Pudding to do something huge, haha, but there certainly is potential for it.

Well, she HAS been keeping her face covered with her hands since the last chapter. And something about Oda showing Sanji saving Pudding but not showing her face reacting in the panel was a bit weird to me. This is all just me being an EXTREMELY wishful thinker though lol.

[Kylor]

I'll go a bit further with this theory, and throw out an idea that occurred to me: What if, not only is her current behavior a manipulation, and she plans on changing the crew's memories later, but she's already done this, or rather, is going to do this? Supposing that Big Mom isn't defeated this arc, what if Pudding's only acting this way so Sanji and the others will trust her later, and what we're seeing now is the version she wants them to remember? And then, only after her second betrayal is revealed will we see get a flashback to what actually happened with her during the wedding?

Honestly, as much of a problem as I've had with her character, I'd be really impressed if this was the case, and really it would be a waste if her power wasn't used for something trippy like that, at some point.

[Kfunk]

Wow you guys really want Pudding to outshine Big Mom in her own arc lol

[Monquito]

@Kfunk:

Wow you guys really want Pudding to outshine Big Mom in her own arc lol

not to outshine, we're just trying to figure out how the SH's are gonna get outta this without defeating BM, since it doesn't seems like we're going for vs's, but instead for plans.

[Jonke]

why is no one talking about zoros eye? i think franky is skilled enough to offer him a cyborg eye. law could probably replace his eye with some animal eye. tontatta princess has no shot on healing it with her heal fruit? ceasar the scientist was on their ship too.

[BOCCHI]

Usopp unlocking CoC since his new goal is to become king of the snipers as well as Usopp lied about having it(which we know his lies end up becoming true and there was a color spread that shows his short written on his lies turn reality)

[badwolf1234]

Just wanna put it out here what if Big Mom is pregnant right now? Cause it surely does explains the mood swings and the cravings don't you think? Would it change how Luffy would handle her?

[The True Saviour]

@Jonke:

why is no one talking about zoros eye? i think franky is skilled enough to offer him a cyborg eye. law could probably replace his eye with some animal eye. tontatta princess has no shot on healing it with her heal fruit? ceasar the scientist was on their ship too.

This isn't Naruto, Zoro isn't hindered in any way by having only one eye. It's probably just for aesthetic purposes, to make Zoro look cool.

[ARTEMlS]

What if the eye actually was blind from the very beginning. So adding a second actual working eye will give him three dimensional perception so that he doesn't get always lost.

[K. Kira XXIII]

I thought he just forgot to open it.
BADASS MUSIC + SPREAD*

[Kaido King of the Beasts]

@Jonke:

why is no one talking about zoros eye? i think franky is skilled enough to offer him a cyborg eye.

Zoro doesn't seem like someone who'd want one

law could probably replace his eye with some animal eye.

Ew.

tontatta princess has no shot on healing it with her heal fruit?

I don't think Zoro ever saw Mansherry or even knew she existed

ceasar the scientist was on their ship too.

Disregarding the fact that he's Caesar, he didn't have any scientific equipment on their ship, plus he only spent one night on the Sunny before he and Zoro parted ways, never to see each other again.