So I'm guessing the Syrians are a screwed people unless Turkey intervenes…
...For Thanksgiving.
So I'm guessing the Syrians are a screwed people unless Turkey intervenes…
...For Thanksgiving.
Oh, Zephos you've a really sweet argumentation style, a bunch of rhetorical questions paired with a few insults and a large knowledge of history and world affairs and a lot of questions, that have nothing to do with the main point i'm trying to convey.
When I'm asking questions, generally it's because I and everyone already knows the answer and I'm testing whether you're really possibly THAT ignorant on the subject.
But something is missing, you haven't even once said something about my thoughts,
I believe I used the term "garbage".
You're just trying to distract your opponent in a discusions with asking a lot of questions.
To put it another way, when your opponent is asking questions it means one of two things.
He knows less than you and is folding in and starting to see you as the better.
Or, he's way ahead of you and is essentially forcing your hand into having your own contradictions, lack of knowledge, and flat our wrongness come right from your mouth. He probably already knows it's there and is just luring it out into a tangled mess that collapses your whole argument and sends you into defensive fits.
Which one do you think this is?
If i would take the time to answer every question you made, i would waste two hours with the result that you would ask even more questions and so on.
Ignoring a query on the issue is basically conceding.
I think you don't get the whole coherence, how the current political system works.
You have NO idea how the current political system works.
I don't know if it's the language barrier that you don't get what i'm talking about.
I'm guessing it's more a maturity barrier that I'm on the right side of. You know, that sort of dividing line between believing in alternative news blogs that claim the world bank uses Sesame Street to brainwash children into bad housing market loans. And the side that lives in the real world.
Money given to Egypt and Tunesia is a perfect evidence that the USA and Europe are securing their influence in these regions.
You mean these two regions that were already in their influence as dictatorships?
Investements in new etablished systems are one of the tools used to secure the power of the western states.
Do you have any idea what the "Marshall Plan" was? The fact that you're talking about "the usa and europe" as one mutual entity is incredibly ironic due to this I hope you realize.
This has nothing to do with charity it has to do with the construction of dependence.
It has to do with stability. No control is being used here, the fervently and very possibly Islamic slanted new elected governments to come are not going to throw out resources and lopsided deals. They're very likely to be stingy and western skeptical.
The western states however want to make sure they don't collapse into Somalias filled with dangerous people smuggling dangerous weapons right across from Europe. There's the aspect of self-interest.
But of course it does work as charity too, because infrastructure, education oppertunities, business attention leading to increased jobs in the massive unemployment levels….if you think this is evil you're a moron.
The sort of economic imperialism you're desperately searching for is not here.If you're so obsessed with how bad this is how about you talk to No Maam. He's from the Czech Republic, ask him if people there think things were economically and politically better before they fell into the western sphere after their revolution as Czechoslovakia.
I could give you a lot of historical examples how this works, since you throw up the Marshal Plan i will show you a old caricature instead.
No seriously, DO you know what the Marshall Plan is?
So yeah, the maturity divide. Who is that even supposed to be? This isn't a point you've made here.
You're a poli-science student, did you ever have to read a book that is capitalism-critical?
I'm specializing in 20th Century China, do you seriously think I haven't studied Marxism?
I ask this because i think that you're just like the great part of people living in western countries. Influenced by western media (books, films, news…). I have a few friends, who study poli-science, too. And i would really like two know if there is a big difference in both education styles.
Alright if you're pulling that card you have to come out of your little Oz curtain and tell us where you're from. Or you could talk to The Sea, who lives in Vietnam, about levels and degrees of capitalism-critical non-western media that would spin your little head backwards.
You still haven't really grasped the breadth of people who populate this forum have you? And that's not a question by the way.Do you think that the freedom to vote, the people in Tunesia, Egypt or Lybia fought for, will really change something?
The ability to frame revolutions, coups, and uprisings into a peaceful civil organized format is central to modern statehood. And for all it's bugs and flaws is inarguably superior to the alternative.
A little food for thought regarding this question:
Clinton was elected then the people were unsatisfied and „elected“ Bush then the people were unsatisfied and elected Obama and so on.
Clinton was elected for BOTH possible terms, and people were mostly VERY satisfied with him. He continues to be popular.
People were very passive and uninterested in the 2000 election between Bush and Gore, and by some counts Gore actually won (he won the popular vote). It was not an election where people were thinking much about things.
Bush won his second term in an environment driven extreme with fear after 9-11 which he took full advantage of, not without massive division between the populace, and he had shitty opponents on the Democratic side.
That was the end of his terms.
So it was Obama against some old man and his crazy lady partner.It's like you don't even know what term limits are. They're damned important.
Maybe you could talk to forum member Dasia, who is from Senegal about how his president keeps increasing term limits for himself about how nice it would be to have a rule of law that the president followed.What has really changed during these years, i would say nothing important, the state for the people only worsened. And don't get me wrong its the same in every western country.
Bush's massive array of mistakes has changed foreign policy. Compare Iraq to Libya if you will. Neo-Con adventurism is dead.
You're a mice and you've the option to choose which cat is going to eat you the white or the black one.
I feel like I'm arguing with a teenager who just discovered Rage Against the Machine or something. This is a massively simplistic view born from being frustrated that real world politics are so glacial and frought with agonizing gridlock that real change must trickle through until major events push the hand.
That's the real world.Kurt Tocholsky:“If elections would change something they would be illegal“
Did they ask him this before or after the weak and stodgey Weimar Republic actually turned into a real police state that promptly destroyed his lifes work and exiled him for being Jewish and in disagreement with them.
Wonder if he learned anything from this experience.–- Update From New Post Merge ---
He thinks Gaddafi was a friend of the west, but that is wrong.
The western leaders had to befriend Gaddafi, so that companies could get a piece of the cake (oil).It was Gaddafi's Libya that came crawling to the west not the other way around.
The dangerous part of Gaddafi was that he was a real intelligent person and this asshole knew how to use opportunities. After 9/11 he used the circumstancess to get rid of the sanctions that were held against Lybia, just by saying we're against terror. Remember, before 9/11 Lybia was a pariah state and it's a fact that Gaddafi was a socialist and he even supported terror acts against UK.
Because if there's one thing Europe hates it's a socialist lolllll. Alright I guess we've deducted that you aren't from THERE that's for sure.
Also wrong. It was Saif Islam, his son, who pushed his dad to warming up to the west because hey, it's pretty nice to participate in the global community and not be a pariah state. It increases economic oppertunities and general peace. Rather than playing the attention seeking crazy person.
Frankly Gaddafi stopped being truly crazy when the Cold War ended and he didn't have a dualistic world stage to limbo around. The 90's were quiet.
If Gaddafi were the kind of person you describe he would be long gone out of Libya, rather than in a seaside town virtually in the middle as far from possible from all borders surrounded by rebels. You know, the way he got killed.No he was never a freind of the the West.
I deliberately added "pragmatically speaking".
It was a business relationship built off mutual interests. Not a FRIENDSHIP.All these points can be used to say that not only the crimes against humanity and the securing of resourcess, but also the hate/grudge/fear of Gaddafi are a good reason to use millitary.
Nobody was fearful or begrudging of Gaddafi in the 00's. He was an old relic of a bygone era who had been defanged and was busy thawing away his borders. His relevance outside of Sub-Saharan Africa was zilch.
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But finally some light news. Joy news.
The Tunisians are voting!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15416702
I have read the past 4 pages, i don't really want to get deep into this though i will say i thing
Jacko: if you have nothing important or proper to say then don't say nothing at all.
@Monkey:
But finally some light news. Joy news.
The Tunisians are voting!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15416702
Huh, I was just wondering when they were going to get around to it today. Cool beans.
@Gaddafi:
This is my will. I, Muammar bin Mohammad bin Abdussalam bi Humayd bin Abu Manyar bin Humayd bin Nayil al Fuhsi Gaddafi, do swear that there is no other God but Allah and that Mohammad is God's Prophet, peace be upon him. I pledge that I will die as Muslim. Should I be killed, I would like to be buried, according to Muslim rituals, in the clothes I was wearing at the time of my death and my body unwashed, in the cemetery of Sirte, next to my family and relatives.
I would like that my family, especially women and children, be treated well after my death. The Libyan people should protect its identity, achievements, history and the honourable image of its ancestors and heroes. The Libyan people should not relinquish the sacrifices of the free and best people.
I call on my supporters to continue the resistance, and fight any foreign aggressor against Libya, today, tomorrow and always.
Let the free people of the world know that we could have bargained over and sold out our cause in return for a personal secure and stable life. We received many offers to this effect but we chose to be at the vanguard of the confrontation as a badge of duty and honour.
Even if we do not win immediately, we will give a lesson to future generations that choosing to protect the nation is an honour and selling it out is the greatest betrayal that history will remember forever despite the attempts of the others to tell you otherwise.
1442 chars of will
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Hmm... i dont think they would want to bury him according to his will.
Goddamn that is one lengthy name.
Hey, helps to remember your great-great-great-great grandfather.
@Cyan:
Hey, helps to remember your great-great-great-great grandfather.
So those extra names are purely optional then ?
@No:
So those extra names are purely optional then ?
Yes, tough it's still used in official documents on some countries.
I'm guessing it's more a maturity barrier that I'm on the right side of. You know, that sort of dividing line between believing in alternative news blogs that claim the world bank uses Sesame Street to brainwash children into bad housing market loans. And the side that lives in the real world.
Alright if you're pulling that card you have to come out of your little Oz curtain and tell us where you're from. Or you could talk to The Sea, who lives in Vietnam, about levels and degrees of capitalism-critical non-western media that would spin your little head backwards.
I'm from germany.
I think that there exists a little missunderstanding, probably occured through my miserable english.
I'm not in the slightest way someone, who believes in conspiracy theories neither am i reading alternative news blogs to get my informations. I'm watching a lot of programs, which deal with social imbalances and all this stuff that isn't broadcasted in main programs. The funny thing is that all these shows, which try to encourage critical thinking are only braodcasted at night and i never heard of a show that is broadcasted on private TV channels. I don't exactly know how the media environment in other countries looks like, i'm only seeing how it is in germany and you only get little details from foreign media. But the concept should be the same, media is a tool of the power holder to tighten their influence. There is a big difference between sovereign states and dictatorships, thats notable. Countries like Lybia, China, Belarus…. are using the media as a pure instrument of propaganda without any freedom of press. In sovereign states the concept is slightly more complex, i would word it this way: The western media is attempted to prevent critical thinking, tries to distract people with a lot of mindless rubbish and is really skillful therein to publish informations from the viewpoint of the power holders.
A few examples from germany that back up my opinion:
There are more PR-Agents then journalists.
Many popular TV moderators are on the payroll of an company that is called „initiative for new social market economy“ a initiative that is solely sponsored by the german economy
There is also a well known example in italy: Berlusconi and his TV-channels, there wasn't any critical reporting of the affairs around Berlusconi.
And if anybody, who read this part thinks about the influence of the economy in media in his country, then i'm sure he/she could name a few examples.
Oh and i've to clarify something i'm neither a marxist nor a communist. I'm willing to admit that i like a few parts of the polical and economical construct that Marx, Engels and others created.
But there is no doubt that all the evidence of history indicates that this system isn't working, since many important things were ignored. The individualism, which makes us what we are or the fact that humans are selfish and power-crazed. The last point is imo one of the reason why the world is so fucked up nowadays, i know that's sound populistic, but the greed for profit, is a main reason for that. Another reason why i really like many of these left-wing orientet intellectuals is that they knew how the capitalistic system works and how brutal it is.
I'm specializing in 20th Century China, do you seriously think I haven't studied Marxism?
No i never assumed that you've never read some critical books. To know the enemy and to know their arguments is a fundament of poli-science. I only asked this question, since i wanted to know in which magnitude you studied them. It would be interesting to know which conclusion did you drew? If you've read writings from Marx, Lenin, Brecht, Gorki, Kuczynski…, it's hard for me to understand why you don't get what i'm talking about.
Enough of that back to topic.
I and everyone already knows the answer and I'm testing whether you're really possibly THAT ignorant on the subject.
I'm well aware that every conflict is complex, there are social, cultural, religios, political and economic aspects, which should be kept in mind. I tried to start a discussion about the geopolitical and economical coherences, that are important for all these uprisings. I ignored the other aspects, because everyone in this thread discussed them during the last 200 pages and i thought it would be interesting to debate about them. Perhaps i should've stated this in the bigining. Am i really ignorant , since i choosed this approach?
You have NO idea how the current political system works.
A essential part of the capitalistic system is the opening of new markets and the protection of them, right?
No control is being used here, the fervently and very possibly Islamic slanted new elected governments to come are not going to throw out resources and lopsided deals. They're very likely to be stingy and western skeptical.
The western states however want to make sure they don't collapse into Somalias filled with dangerous people smuggling dangerous weapons right across from Europe. There's the aspect of self-interest.
But of course it does work as charity too, because infrastructure, education oppertunities, business attention leading to increased jobs in the massive unemployment levels….if you think this is evil you're a moron.
Well said and right, but imo the self-interest overwhelmes the other aspects. And the reasoning behind it is what i would call evil. As i said earlier, the greed for profit impels the western economy and through investments the buying power increases and therfore the profits raises. A useful side effect is that the people feel better, securer and freer. But in the course of time the negative aspect of this process are going to get revealed. The differences between the classes will increase, that means some people are going to get rich, the middle class is going to be satisfied, but the majority of people is going to suffer just like in Europe and the US. Simultaneously a economic dependence is going to occur, be sure the etablished economic powers will never allow it that in all three countries a business cometition arises. There are so many examples for this concept, for example in parts of Africa, if i remember right, it was Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Liberia european food companies exportet meat with poor quality, slaughterhouse wastes, which couldn't be sold in Europe to these countries. With the result that local farmers had to shut down their farms, since they couldn't keep up with the prices. And yes i would call this Neo colonialism. This process may need years to be effective, but its happening.
Do you have any idea what the "Marshall Plan" was? The fact that you're talking about "the usa and europe" as one mutual entity is incredibly ironic due to this I hope you realize.
I know what the ERP was and i know what the three mainpoints were, the funny thing is this backs up my statemant above.
Sugar for the people, it was needful without a question, but the side effect was that the US gained more reputation.
So yeah, the maturity divide. Who is that even supposed to be? This isn't a point you've made here.
You know thats the ugly penguin that represents germany her name is Angela Merkel. I don't think i've to explain the symbolism of this caricature. My point is that the US established a friend, who is somehow a slave to the USA and the Marshall Plan was a part of this process
Profit hurray
The ability to frame revolutions, coups, and uprisings into a peaceful civil organized format is central to modern statehood. And for all it's bugs and flaws is inarguably superior to the alternative
First, i'm a democrat. What i was trying to say with the quotes and my little summary of the last elections in the USA was that the politiacal system democracy will never function together with the economic system capitalism. Its true that even in the current world conditions a democracy is better then a dictatorship, but there is more to gain. I would be satisfeidd when a democracy is able to prevent the rise of power-hungry capitalists to the real leaders of this world and when people are really equal like its written in every modern constitutions. Sad thing i proberbly will never see this state.
Are my thoughts still garbage and am i still ignorant, if you still think so i'm probably talking against a wall ?
I do not understand what people have against capitalism. I for one am a major supporter of capitalism. It encourages creativity, hard work, and is based on what made us modern.
Buisness.
If people hate capitalists then major things like the Iphone, laptops, mcdonalds, Cars would not exist.
No-one seems to hate Steve Jobs and he is as big of a capitalist as anyone.
I truly believe that anyone who is against capitalism are the lazy people who want to get money without working. Those who have no creativity and work the simple cashier/waitor/minimum pay jobs at the age of 40. Isn't america the land of oppertunity, make your own buisness, create solutions not complain about it to ABAMA.
Edit: one more things. Capitalism = jobs
@bartholemew:
I do not understand what people have against capitalism. I for one am a major supporter of capitalism. It encourages creativity, hard work, and is based on what made us modern.
Buisness.If people hate capitalists then major things like the Iphone, laptops, mcdonalds, Cars would not exist.
No-one seems to hate Steve Jobs and he is as big of a capitalist as anyone.
I truly believe that anyone who is against capitalism are the lazy people who want to get money without working. Those who have no creativity and work the simple cashier/waitor/minimum pay jobs at the age of 40. Isn't america the land of oppertunity, make your own buisness, create solutions not complain about it to ABAMA.Edit: one more things. Capitalism = jobs
Oh boy, i think i shouldn't take this post serious, anyway.
Kuma you posted that you fought against Gaddafis troops, with this mindset you just posted.
What do you think will change in Lybia.
How do you think your personal circumstancess will change?
Oh boy, i think i shouldn't take this post serious, anyway.
Everyone is intitled to their own oppinion.
Kuma you posted that you fought against Gaddafis troops, with this mindset you just posted.
Once again it is my view in the world, changed with revolution and war. From an ignorant boy who supported some evil people to what i am today. A director, a buisnessman, and a medical student.
@Jacko:
What do you think will change in Lybia.
Learn how to spell. LIBYA, SO far it has already become better than alot of places in the world. Read what Mustafa abdu aljilil said today. Loans of 10,000 dinar without any interest. The country is now tax free. This is only the beggining
How do you think your personal circumstancess will change?
To the better, unless my personal issues become involved, then life will be better form my people, and i will leave.
Also, as a german the capitalism is the only reason Germany is so strong right now. BMW, AUDI, MERCEDES-BENZ, BMW and the newly obtained RANGEROVER and the rest of the cars your country manufactures is the main reason you as a country is strong.
Big companies and the rich employ people. Employment is directly linked to capitalism. At least study an introduction to ecomony and buisness
Most of Western Europe, while capitalist, has a lot of socialistic influences.
@bartholemew:
Everyone is intitled to their own oppinion.
Once again it is my view in the world, changed with revolution and war. From an ignorant boy who supported some evil people to what i am today. A director, a buisnessman, and a medical student.
Learn how to spell. LIBYA, SO far it has already become better than alot of places in the world. Read what Mustafa abdu aljilil said today. Loans of 10,000 dinar without any interest. The country is now tax free. This is only the beggining
To the better, unless my personal issues become involved, then life will be better form my people, and i will leave.
Also, as a german the capitalism is the only reason Germany is so strong right now. BMW, AUDI, MERCEDES-BENZ, BMW and the newly obtained RANGEROVER and the rest of the cars your country manufactures is the main reason you as a country is strong.
Big companies and the rich employ people. Employment is directly linked to capitalism. At least study an introduction to ecomony and buisness
Sry for the misspelling.
Regarding your opinion: opinions can diverge without that discussions wouldn't be fun, thats ok.
And i'm sure the Libyian people are happy that the Gaddafi regime is gone and the repression ended, but i mean what do you think will change political wise. Do you think there are going to be new polical tendencies, more democracy, more equality or do you think that a few long-time residents are only securing their influence? Whats going on with conservative islamistics, are there any signs that they gained more influence?
Do you know what i would call a real revolution/changing when all the old leaders of a dictatorship are gone/killed/imprisoned.
Just like after WW2 every minister was brought to trial, killed or commited suicide.
So, who is Mustafa abdu aljilil from 2007-2011 he was the minister of justice under Gaddafi?
I'm really curious could you please give us a short summary of what you've gone through. When and where did you fought?, I think i remember that you were in the UK when the uprising began, or am i wrong? If i'm right, how did you get to Libya?…
The other question i have is:
How are you A director, a buisnessman, and a medical student at the same time?
An the last part:
I'm really happy to be a german, all these companies you named do so much for us people, they build cars, they employ so many people. And all these workes are treated really fair, they've enough money, they don't have to work to long and they've enough money to live a good live. And don't forget that all these companies pay taxes so that the state budget isn't thrown out of the joint and the we got more national depts and they really care about the environment. And the other part is that germany has really powerful politicans and a high rank in the world wide political system. If germany says no to something all the other powerhouses in the world really care.
Last question:
Do you know the nickname madsirkuma?
http://voiceactingalliance.com/board/showthread.php?66959-Well-known-Famous-relatives-friends/page4
post 35
Political changes:-
Most obvious right now is that no longer Gaddafi calls the shots, before this it was gaddafi want gaddafi do. He has cancelled English language, banned boxing and so so so so so so so so many things more.
Education is the first thing that will take a nice rise, good connections to countries (libyans were not allowed to get into U.S. easily before 2003), no more people magically dissapearing and reapearing in Bu-Salim.
Since the number of people living in the country is small, money problems seem to be no issue what-so ever.
New political changes will be done because the old one is now fully destroyed. We have no political system, right now we are going to write our constitution.
I hate it when people talk about conservative islamists, i -myself- am not a muslim, but their influence is very very small. Women are allowed to drive/work/not wear hijab and such I am sure that they will block any crazy laws that they might bring up, and of course they will accept the good ones, such as No Alcohol.
Real revolution:
Gaddafi - dead.
Saif - ??? gonna die soon
Mutassim - dead
Khamis - in niger
And all of the main military figures are either dead or captured.
I fought at the begining in Ras Lanuf, it was not for me but i did do my part.
Mustafa is my grandads uncle, and one if not the most respected individual in Libya
I worked with the Libya T.V. channel during the revolution (no uni), directing and now writing a few new shows. (all of the past work was news, i am writing entertainment)
Also i am starting my own buisness, main reason i came to the u.k. is to get me some important books over marketing and sales, beforehand i managed the printing and delivery of shirts to Libya.
I am a med student in uni before the revolution started and when i was a fucking ingnorant motherfucker. It has yet to open.
You are wrong, i have stayed in Libya the whole time, i left to the U.k. 1 day after the death of Gaddafi and am currently there.
I would be proud too if i was german ( i support bayern munich and Germany), i hope from what i have described you have a different perspective of capitalism.
FYI:- If you lose your car companies your country will plumit fasted than Rebecca Blacks fanbase.
Yeah that is me, i need voices for my pitches. (I need to sell my idea to a few t.v. companies, then i will start with shirts and accesories to go with it, i am hoping to be successful before i finish med school so i do not have to be a doctor.)
@bartholemew:
Political changes:-
Most obvious right now is that no longer Gaddafi calls the shots, before this it was gaddafi want gaddafi do. He has cancelled English language, banned boxing and so so so so so so so so many things more.
Education is the first thing that will take a nice rise, good connections to countries (libyans were not allowed to get into U.S. easily before 2003), no more people magically dissapearing and reapearing in Bu-Salim.
Since the number of people living in the country is small, money problems seem to be no issue what-so ever.
New political changes will be done because the old one is now fully destroyed. We have no political system, right now we are going to write our constitution.
I hate it when people talk about conservative islamists, i -myself- am not a muslim, but their influence is very very small. Women are allowed to drive/work/not wear hijab and such I am sure that they will block any crazy laws that they might bring up, and of course they will accept the good ones, such as No Alcohol.Real revolution:
Gaddafi - dead.
Saif - ??? gonna die soon
Mutassim - dead
Khamis - in niger
And all of the main military figures are either dead or captured.I fought at the begining in Ras Lanuf, it was not for me but i did do my part.
Mustafa is my grandads uncle, and one if not the most respected individual in Libya
I worked with the Libya T.V. channel during the revolution (no uni), directing and now writing a few new shows. (all of the past work was news, i am writing entertainment)
Also i am starting my own buisness, main reason i came to the u.k. is to get me some important books over marketing and sales, beforehand i managed the printing and delivery of shirts to Libya.
I am a med student in uni before the revolution started and when i was a fucking ingnorant motherfucker. It has yet to open.You are wrong, i have stayed in Libya the whole time, i left to the U.k. 1 day after the death of Gaddafi and am currently there.
I would be proud too if i was german ( i support bayern munich and Germany), i hope from what i have described you have a different perspective of capitalism.
FYI:- If you lose your car companies your country will plumit fasted than Rebecca Blacks fanbase.Yeah that is me, i need voices for my pitches. (I need to sell my idea to a few t.v. companies, then i will start with shirts and accesories to go with it, i am hoping to be successful before i finish med school so i do not have to be a doctor.)
Our opinions are really utterly different, whatever i really wish you good luck in your personal future.
I wish everybody i meat good luck besides racists and retarded hardliners, cause it's really hard to become something good in this hard world.
I've only two other comment left:
Why is Mustafa abdu aljilil one of the most respected persons in Libya? One of the few thing's i know is that he was able to study in Libya and made it into the minister of justice and this under Gaddafi, which indicates that he was a regime friendly person.
It's good to hear that islamistic hardliners don't have much influence and i hope it stays this way. If we don't get detailed informations through media, would you please be so nice to give us a summary of your costitution.
Oh and my comment on germany was sarcastic!
@bartholemew:
FYI:- If you lose your car companies your country will plumit fasted than Rebecca Blacks fanbase.
Guess you know just about fuck all there is to the Germany Economy.
I really don't want to argue about Germany. I love it as a country, and clearly there is more to it than cars, i was giving an example over capitalism. No offence Smudger.
The autobahn, the amazing work in renewable energy, the technology-sector. Many more things too.
Jacko, i do not want to debate any more, clearly neither of us are going to get along. Same old democrat-republican rivalry. Even under Gaddafi regime he was fair and rightous which is what put him in prison for some amount of years.
If oyu want information watch Aljazeera, alarabiya. Its not that difficult.
Most of Western Europe, while capitalist, has a lot of socialistic influences.
Exactly. The two go hand in hand.
Oh and my comment on germany was sarcastic!
I can't honestly believe there are seriously still German Marxists lollll.
Jacko, straight up, you're country was divided into two camps after WW2, what happened to the one that refused capitalism and democracy. Tell us pleeze.
Tell us about the genius of Erich Honecker.
I mean for fuck.
If the notion of Marxism is based on the masses living better tell me which masses….were living better. West or East.
Frankly this whole discussion should be passed to Sea. The only person on the forums living in a proclaimed Marxist state.
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Russia Today Smudger? Really? Russia Today? You know we talk about how vague and hard to pin down Russia's level of democracy is, but one things clear, and that's that their degree of press freedom sucks massive balls. RT is virtually a Putin mouthpiece.
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I'm from germany.
You MUST be from the former West, otherwise your dad would be smacking your ass.
I doubt someone saying the stuff you are grew up in a household with your father talking about the glory days of his youth lol.
"Ahhh…son, I wish you had been there to see it...grimy factories....identical cold clammy apartment blocks...shitty shitty cars...secret police beating you....having a government building a literal wall to keep it's own people inside it's borders....the vague threat of China style protestor mass murder right there near the end....those were the days!"
I think that there exists a little missunderstanding, probably occured through my miserable english.
I'm not in the slightest way someone, who believes in conspiracy theories
Yeah you kinda sorta are.
neither am i reading alternative news blogs to get my informations. I'm watching a lot of programs, which deal with social imbalances and all this stuff that isn't broadcasted in main programs.
Nigga come on, are there seriously major news outlets in Germany talking about how much better it was without democracy and capitalism. Really. Really really.
I don't exactly know how the media environment in other countries looks like, i'm only seeing how it is in germany and you only get little details from foreign media. But the concept should be the same, media is a tool of the power holder to tighten their influence.
Boom, conspiracy theory.
There is a big difference between sovereign states and dictatorships, thats notable. Countries like Lybia, China, Belarus…. are using the media as a pure instrument of propaganda without any freedom of press. In sovereign states the concept is slightly more complex, i would word it this way: The western media is attempted to prevent critical thinking, tries to distract people with a lot of mindless rubbish
The western media generally isn't fucking government controlled.
What's CNN's evil agenda? To be dumb as fuck?
You're taking something as innocuous as dumb content made for ratings, and twisting it into literal conspiracy. THAT is conspiracy theory right there. No it's not equivalent to NWO style crap, but it's still of the animal.
If anything state owned media in these countries is MORE responsible and news worthy. NPR in the US, BBC in the UK.
Right wingers in the US despise NPR.
and is really skillful therein to publish informations from the viewpoint of the power holders.
No. No this does not happened. At all. They may have their biases, but that just hurts your argument more when they get on the other sides leaders like a rapid dog.
A few examples from germany that back up my opinion:
There are more PR-Agents then journalists.
Many popular TV moderators are on the payroll of an company that is called „initiative for new social market economy“ a initiative that is solely sponsored by the german economy
Hmm, hey let's see something. Cite this.
There is also a well known example in italy: Berlusconi and his TV-channels, there wasn't any critical reporting of the affairs around Berlusconi.
And Italy is seen as a huge embarrassment right now for that very reason. What's your point. That isn't the norm. That's the system failing.
And if anybody, who read this part thinks about the influence of the economy in media in his country, then i'm sure he/she could name a few examples.
I wouldn't even call Fox an example of what you're talking about.
And hell for the fact that's there's competing news agencies who run different narratives, views, etc. This even cancels this issue out.
Turn off Fox, turn on NPR.
What do they do in China?
Oh and i've to clarify something i'm neither a marxist nor a communist. I'm willing to admit that i like a few parts of the polical and economical construct that Marx, Engels and others created.
Which parts?
And what "others"? Most of the add ons from the 20th century have been the straight up crazy kind or actively violent. Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism…
But there is no doubt that all the evidence of history indicates that this system isn't working
What system? See this is what I mentioned earlier. This is why you're not really capable of this discussion in a mature sense. Because you are speaking in absolutes.
It's really almost like you took from Marx the idea of inherent odds between economic systems. And not any sense that they can coexist.
This is a matter of so much spectrum it's not even funny.
Wonton capitalism is bad, I doubt you'd find many on here that would disagree. Even most right wing Americans agree more than they think unless they actually think the country was better in the 1890's with child labor and next to no oversight on things like food production.
Mmm! Human fingers in my ground beef!
It's a ridiculous idea to reach the point of just saying "GET RID OF THE WHOLE THING", and not thinking about "Hmm, alright what needs to be worked on to avoid this again.".
Yeah I know. That's boring and hard and doesn't let you feel like some kind of grubby revolutionary. But that's why you're immature at this point.
since many important things were ignored. The individualism, which makes us what we are or the fact that humans are selfish and power-crazed. The last point is imo one of the reason why the world is so fucked up nowadays,
The world is a miracle nowadays. All of us including Sea and Bar Kum are living so much unbelievably better than even our recentish ancestors it's not even funny.
I don't why people even THINK things like "the modern world sucks!!!" unless you're like comparing things to the 90's or something. Living standards in the macro sense have been skyrocketing for so long. Humanism and general better sense of world community as well. War has been decreasing, adn the brutiality of it as well.
Go back even just two decades. Bar Kum would be slaughtered and the world outside would only have a vague idea of it.
And things will continues to improve. This recession will be a learning experience for many nations and people.
i know that's sound populistic, but the greed for profit, is a main reason for that.
Which is why it's good to work out a system where that can be checked,a nd also utulized in a productive manner. Since it's not going anywhere. It's a positive in some ways of course.
Another reason why i really like many of these left-wing orientet intellectuals is that they knew how the capitalistic system works and how brutal it is.
Saying they "knew how it worked" is silly. They have their interpretations. It almost seems like you took the worst thing about Mrxism from it, it's religious dogma. Easily the worst thing about it bar none. I suppose you're one of those who call him a "scientist" too, rather than a philosopher.
No i never assumed that you've never read some critical books. To know the enemy and to know their arguments
Jesus christ! Again with the dogma! This is the immaturity right here! You can't go through the world thinking like this, it's just not a realistic read of the globe and it's history.
I don't read Marxism as the "ENEMY" or even China. I understand the psychology at hand, and feel a lot of sympathy at points. I know well why communism looked so nice to people. Especially at the point in time it came, when capitalism really did look like much of what Marx described.
is a fundament of poli-science.
What kind of clown college poli-sci involves STUDYING THE ENEMY lolll.
I only asked this question, since i wanted to know in which magnitude you studied them. It would be interesting to know which conclusion did you drew? If you've read writings from Marx, Lenin, Brecht, Gorki, Kuczynski…,
Brecht?? Look kid. There's guys who devoted their lives to writing theory. And there's playwriters who like their ideas. Brecht does not belong in that list.
Marx's inability to frame his ideas in a format that wasn't in the shape of a religion bothers me greatly. Just from an intellectual level.
Also he's just so…dated. How does his writing apply to the advent of information economies? Hell he couldn't even properly frame his times.
He thought communism would develop in the industrial nations, but WHOOPS, it happened in Russia instead. And all the major breeding grounds for communism afterwards were largely agrarian like Russia was. Meanwhile the industrial nations did nothing of the sort.
Lenin was an impulsive control freak who was really the one to put the noose around the idea of Communist states being something other than dictatorships, we got the vanguard concepts from him. So instead of a dictatorship of the proletariat we get the dictatorship of an elite party which is like the worst idea ever. Look what happened after he died.
it's hard for me to understand why you don't get what i'm talking about.
Are you seriously confused that your ideas could be…dismissed? lolll.
"Rejecting far left mumbo jumbo?? He must simply be misunderstanding me!"
I'm well aware that every conflict is complex, there are social, cultural, religios, political and economic aspects, which should be kept in mind. I tried to start a discussion about the geopolitical and economical coherences, that are important for all these uprisings. I ignored the other aspects, because everyone in this thread discussed them during the last 200 pages and i thought it would be interesting to debate about them. Perhaps i should've stated this in the bigining. Am i really ignorant , since i choosed this approach?
Wait so you're playing Devil's Advocate?
A essential part of the capitalistic system is the opening of new markets and the protection of them, right?
According to Marx? You really are stating this like fact. Stop that.
Libya was already an opened market. Gaddafi was letting in the oil companies and what have you.
To say nothing of Tunisia and Egypt.
If you want to really play your theory.
Bolivia.
Evo Morales did some major nationalization upon re-election. Not fun for some foreign investment.
But after the bloody Bolivian uprising funded by CIA agents we clearly see-
Oh wait that hasn't happened im sorry…
Well said and right, but imo the self-interest overwhelmes the other aspects.
Here's the real crux of the matter.
Do the Libyans give a shit?
And the reasoning behind it is what i would call evil.
Hello dogma! You really did take the worst aspect of Marx to heart.
As i said earlier, the greed for profit impels the western economy and through investments the buying power increases and therfore the profits raises. A useful side effect is that the people feel better, securer and freer.
The motive at the heart of basic left wing politics. Huh wait what, whoa.
But in the course of time the negative aspect of this process are going to get revealed. The differences between the classes will increase,
The differences between the classes in the first world has lessened tremendously compared to the early days of Industrialization.
And really I don't care how the 1% lives or whatever. The important part and the current issue. Is how WE'RE living. If I can find good employment, wages, housing etc. If I can live my life and work my way in it to fulfill or try reasonably at my personal gaols that's all that matters.
When a recession hits like this those things become hard to very very very near impossible in many cases, and the anger at the 1% isn't so much anger at them for being rich. It's the anger at certain aspects and people whose mismanagement lead to the recession, and the fact that they haven't shown to have learned the lesson or been humbled. Whining as they did about any sort of regulation after the fact, and paying fucking bonuses to themselves in hard times. They're sense of entitlement that they don't see that they need to tighten some belts and think about things they did and try to change that. Which they haven't shown to at all.
THAT is the crux of the Occupy movement.
that means some people are going to get rich, the middle class is going to be satisfied, but the majority of people is going to suffer
The middle class in generally the largest portion of first world society by a longshot.
The idea of some mass of poverty is a scene from early capitalism from other eras. That or you're so sheltered you don't even know what poor looks like.
Simultaneously a economic dependence is going to occur, be sure the etablished economic powers will never allow it that in all three countries a business cometition arises.
Mm, yeah, they will.
Say Libya nationalizes some or most of it's oil. We won't do shit.
There are so many examples for this concept, for example in parts of Africa, if i remember right, it was Cote d'Ivoire, Ghana, Liberia european food companies exportet meat with poor quality, slaughterhouse wastes, which couldn't be sold in Europe to these countries. With the result that local farmers had to shut down their farms, since they couldn't keep up with the prices.
You realize companies can be taken to task at this sort of thing right?
Or I guess the solution is to destroy everything and start from year zero. Because of evil and such.
And yes i would call this Neo colonialism.
Neo-Colonialism is CIA plots in Central America against left wing presidents in the 50's.
Not abuses such as that.
This process may need years to be effective, but its happening.
What process?
I know what the ERP was and i know what the three mainpoints were, the funny thing is this backs up my statemant above.
- Help for the destroyed europe
Sugar for the people, it was needful without a question, but the side effect was that the US gained more reputation.
You're country would be a smoldering garbage dump.
At what point do you not fucking get that mutual interests are a workable possible thing regardless of some of the motives involved.
This is AGAIN the immaturity. The dogma. You're a purist, you don't live in the world.
You know thats the ugly penguin that represents germany her name is Angela Merkel. I don't think i've to explain the symbolism of this caricature. My point is that the US established a friend, who is somehow a slave to the USA and the Marshall Plan was a part of this process
LOLLLLLL, holy shit you're insane. Germany is not a slave to the USA by any stretch of the imagination.
You have absolutely no concept of American-Euro relations whatsoever.
containment of the communism
Alright at what point are you going to stop pretending you aren't a communist.
Communism was a political force in the cold war. Just like the west. An interest block playing Risk with another interest block.
Just look on the other side of the Iron Curtain to how they did their own equivalent of the Marshall Plan.
opening of new markets for the overproduction of the US economy[/QUOTE\
The US economy produces? loll
Profit hurray
You are a Marxist. Seriously. You see everything in economic terms. That's like the central tenant of Marxism. Stop being a pussy abotu it and admit it.
First, i'm a democrat.
lollll, you have no concept of what goes on inside the US do you.
What i was trying to say with the quotes and my little summary of the last elections in the USA was that the politiacal system democracy will never function together with the economic system capitalism.
The hell does the last twenty years of political shift have to do with capitalism?
For godsakes, stop talking about anything America related. You're illiterate of it at best, and completely misinformed at worst.Its true that even in the current world conditions a democracy is better then a dictatorship, but there is more to gain. I would be satisfeidd when a democracy is able to prevent the rise of power-hungry capitalists to the real leaders of this world
Conspiracy theory!
and when people are really equal like its written in every modern constitutions. Sad thing i proberbly will never see this state.
What is your idea of what equal means.
"I'm not a Marxist guys! I swear!"
Are my thoughts still garbage and am i still ignorant, if you still think so i'm probably talking against a wall ?
You're immature, which is forgiveable and fixable.
But you're DOGMATIC, which is horrible and anti-intellectualism at it's worst. And that's much harder to fix.
In my eyes you are equivalent in your musings to the Islamists you're so glad aren't coming to power in Libya.
Yeah, I am from this country called The Socialist-oriented capitalist republic of Vietnam, LOL, thought the government never admitted the capitalist part.
The Socialist-oriented part that is, the economy was still dominated by the state-owned corporations. Though less and less so recently.
We were a closed, full socialist country pre-1986 like Cuba and North Korea but a reform had to be carried out because everything sucked. Inflation, stagnation, slow progress.
The reason it took so long to reform (1975-1986) is because it was a goddamn socialist dictatorship. People who suggested reform were considered reactionary factors and assassinated until the top-notch politicians decided to imitate Big Bro China.
Since then, we have one the fastest economic growth rates in the world, only below China, but still a third world country.
So, is our economic model superior?
Let exam the Input and Output. The output sucks and Vietnam has always been a country with excess of imports over exports.
Input: Dependent on these three factors:
1. FDI - Foreign direct investment.
2. Labor force.
3. TFP -Total factor productivity.
The FDI makes up about 57% of the growth, laborer force about 20%, and TFP 23%.
The FDI/GDP ratio is above 40%.
Which make us one of biggest attraction of foreign investment in the world. In 2009, we ranked third in this department, after China and India.
Tl;dr: The economic growth is heavily dependent on foreign factor. It is largely thanks to the “Filthy western capitalist oppressors” pouring money into Vietnam that we obtained this growth.
Furthermore, the growth is also too dependent on the quantity of the labor force. The number of laborer is increasing about 2% each year, which is because the unemployment rate is still high in both cities and countryside.
The TFP, which determine the strength of a country’s own economy, only contributes about a forth of the growth. This is very low compared to most countries.
The Incremental Capital Output Ratio (ICOR) is about 4,86. Very high compared to South Korea’s 3 (1961-1980 period), Taiwan’s 2,7 (1961-1980 period), etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incremental_capital-output_ratio )
This proves the high inefficiency of the economic model in how it uses the capital.
This is because:
Not to mention many of those top-notch figures in system are corrupted and blatantly embezzle without fear, due to the dictatorship.
Also, the labor productivity, or workforce productivity is low. All of those cause high demand investment, which increase inflation, dependence on foreign countries, and the Vietnam Dong value to drop.
In short, the Vietnam's economic model is even more flawed than most of capitalist countries and we receive such large amount of investment is because of the cheap labor price and natural resources, which is in danger anyway.
But we get better as we get more private companies.
UGH I can't believe the US fucking funded and helped the redevelopment of Western Europe including virtually 3/4 of my own Germany when we were bleeding twisted wrecks of post-WW2 debris….for partial reasoning of increasing stability and decreasing possibility of Moscow influence! Those fucking assholes! God what I wouldn't do to wrench the candy out of each of those Berlin children's hands!!!
Now look at us. Slaves to America!
Remember when Germany unilaterally backed and fought in the Iraq war along with all the other members of NATO? I'll never forget it.
Remember when US car companies like Ford and GM firebombed the nascent Volkswagon business into oblivion? A tragic moment in history.
God....to be a German behind Soviet Lines. To think, it could have been me being ethnically cleansed from Prussia in order to fit the political power system of Stalin's side of the Risk board helping make people perfectly equal even though nobody actually gives a shit about being perfectly equal, because real people just want to be able to live well.
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I actually fucking own, drive, and daily rely on a German car myself lol. And even brought it into the local chain dealer for a bit of maintenance, the chain dealer that is run and employs American citizens, damn near at the center business juncture of my whole large town, a German company. The unshakable tenants of American Capitalist Evil right there over the bought and chained Western European slaves ahahahaha.
@Monkey:
Russia Today Smudger? Really? Russia Today? You know we talk about how vague and hard to pin down Russia's level of democracy is, but one things clear, and that's that their degree of press freedom sucks massive balls. RT is virtually a Putin mouthpiece.
But this is the issue we have….most countries won't voice concern about the various issues that are arising in the middle east and mainly Libya without having it filtered or discussing the main points that none of the main media providers want to touch.
Russia does this as well as every other power/superpower for the past 100+ years.
Doesn't mean he didn't raise a very good point. (even if it is more to do with the fact he'll lose billions in oil/energy income)
After reading the last pages, I got some thing to say:
First of all to all the people who got problems with how gaddafis capture happened, I share your troubles, me too I would've loved him to be captured by a corps in uniform, shackled while someone is reading his rights, and driven away to a prison cell in a nice car; like it happens in a modern civil state, BUT that's exactly what Lybia is not due to this dictator, he himself brought this death upon himself and really to ask of these untrained rebels to do that is like asking them to be angels, it's a slip but a very understandable one and something we don't need to linger on. It happened, it was bad, but who cares let's get forward now.
Second point is to all the people who got problems with NATO interfering; " OH nooo the west is helping an Arab country, it has to be a conspiracy to kill Gaddafi, cause he's a hero who was going to do this and that and had big plans for Africa, etc etc….". All I have to say is; and I had this discussion with alot of people, who as soon as they heard NATO was gonna help, had doubts about the validity of the uprisings and stuff like that; Gaddafi doesn't represent anything to the west or the world at large, he wasn't even an eye-sore, the only plans he got was how he could get more dollars in his pockets. He is no ché or lumumba or anything. Like Ubiq said 'the west' was happy enough with the state of affairs as it was.
Now don't get me wrong I don't think the countries who helped Lybia did that out of the goodness of their heart, there is self interest of course, but that doesn't diminish the fact it was a right and good thing to do.
The Lybians don't care about what you're thinking, thanks to NATO they're free now, and I don't think they'll forget this kind act in a long time.
Tschuss!
I do think Capitalism is flawed. Part of its flaws were pointed out by Marx in Das Kapital. It supports human greed, furthers the distance between the rich and the poor and the conflicting nature of the system. But Marx's solutions for it is too idealistic and impossible to accomplish considering human nature. Socialist utopia is forever out of reach. What is wrong with Capitalism, in the end, would be what's wrong with man in general, and we can't get rid of it all.
(Read Nausicaa.) Marx wanted to change the society. I think it is the individual that needs to be changed and can be changed, by his own realization, not the society as a whole.
I will say more on this matter later.
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The society is too complicated with its many individuals and different circumstances, thus unwieldy. Any system, old or new, when applied to it is bound to be unsuitable for a certain part of the society, and result in mindless following, and conflict. Any system, no matter how good and well-thought out, cannot work for everyone. Perfect equality can never be as long as differences always exist.
The thing is, Communism/Marxism did contribute to the world as a counterpart of Capitalism in the 20th century and helped Capitalism to change for the better.
The problems with capitalism are ultimately the problems of humankind in general, which is why communist thought (and its insistence on the inexorable direction of history towards world socialism) became intertwined with futurist thought–the march of progress would bring not only technological progress, but progress towards a whole new kind of human. It is at that point that communism becomes way too out of touch with reality to work.
But this is the issue we have….most countries won't voice concern about the various issues that are arising in the middle east and mainly Libya without having it filtered or discussing the main points that none of the main media providers want to touch.
What are you talking about??
Every goddamn day even something as worthless as CNN has some half dozen guys on rambling about "CAN THE LIBYANS POSSIBILY NOT FALL INTO CIVIL WAR/ISLAMISM/ETC, WHEN WILL THE ARAB SPRING TURN INTO ARAB WINTER, NOW THAT COLONEL DODODO IS GONE HOW QUICKLY WILL TRIBAL DIVISIONS BLOW UP, THE NTC GOVERNMENT DOESNT HAVE THE CONFIDENCE OF THE PEOPLE BLABLABLA" and they took some hundred weeks to figure out even who the general makeup of the rebel ranks even were.
Everyone and their mama is running on negative questions, mostly because it's easier to be wrong when you're negative than when you optimistic, but mostly because everyone and their mama is really skeptical of this whole revolutionary wave just as a fact.
Anyway Russia Today is even worse than Fox fucking News. Go see their ace coverage of the fall of tripoli where they were pretty much making shit up out of thin air just to be as contrarian as possible to what sane news was saying at the time. They're worthless.
As for the actual content of the video, it's garbage. Putin is doing his little posing and citing exagerrative and untrue things (NATO destroying the infrastructure and generations). It's just the usual shit that participating in this thread would have long been answered for you ages ago
And lol at the whole WOOOO NATO WILL BE ON THE GROUND SOON.
You aren't some nobody like Jacko.
You're part of this community. Where were you during this thread? It's been like 3/4 of a year and you weren't anywhere to be seen? Yet apparently care about the issues?
Don't just pop out of the blue all of a sudden knowing nothing and being caught up by your selection bias source choices so you can sputter bitterly at actual revolution participants and people who live in and are from the region. Start back on page one and we'll see you in a week.
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But really, let's all stop quarreling for a day.
The revolutions have started blooming into some actual flowers for the first time. The first harvest of the seeding has begun.
Tunisia has voted in their first free and fair elections.
It's being counted right now.
Now that's lovely news! :) Congrats to Tunisia!
Tigerlilly~~~
I wonder what she thinks about this.
The turnout is over 90%, it's really impressive!
It's always heartwarming to see people vote for the first time in their life. All troubles with party politics aside the idea is still so strong. It'll be interesting to see were things are heading in the most promising of the post revolution countries. A glimps at what might await the people elsewhere. Tunesia has to succede in getting a stable government now. Show the others that there's more to look forward to and work towards than just a moment of Freedom. Also the transition is over. In this new government the old element have absolutly no place left. I hope they won't find any.
Congrats and good luck to Tunesia
Well done, Tunisia. Well done.
Fuck yeah Tunisia! Turnabout, bitches
An update to my post about the unconfirmed reports on Saif being captured.
http://news.yahoo.com/gadhafis-heirs-dead-dictators-sons-speak-085544817.html
Yeah, he wasn't really.
Anyway, great news for Tunisia!!!
I would have liked it better if the secular party had won. But that is my personal preference. Let's see how the new system work.
This is important for Libya to watch and see. Maybe more important than knowing the Gaddafi dynasty is truly dead.
I hope the Egyptians are watching too, though I don't really trust their military council (denying foreign election monitoring?? seriously Egypt??).
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@THE:
I would have liked it better if the secular party had won. But that is my personal preference. Let's see how the new system work.
I think we have to realize as westerners and far easterners that that's the cultural reality of the region. Bar Kum and Lilly would tell us as much.
We can't hope for secular society to pop out of the blue (hell we Americans are still struggling against political religion lol, like we can talk).
And we need to realize that a moderate Islamic party isn't really a bad thing per say. This is where things are at, and civil democracy and free scrutiny of expression and press will tame them into being humble and even more moderate. This Tunisia party looks pretty reasonable and level headed.
Even the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood doesn't look near as bad as it's rep.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/us-syria-usa-idUSTRE79N22G20111024
Where do you think that this has the potential to go to?
Dare I hope its the start of another dictator domino falling ?
@Monkey:
I think we have to realize as westerners and far easterners that that's the cultural reality of the region. Bar Kum and Lilly would tell us as much.
We can't hope for secular society to pop out of the blue (hell we Americans are still struggling against political religion lol, like we can talk).And we need to realize that a moderate Islamic party isn't really a bad thing per say. This is where things are at, and civil democracy and free scrutiny of expression and press will tame them into being humble and even more moderate. This Tunisia party looks pretty reasonable and level headed.
Even the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood doesn't look near as bad as it's rep.
Yeah it was predictable. I has a facebook friend who is a secular Tunisian and doesn't have too much of a hopeful view on the situation. But I hope you are right and that things will work out for them.
(good luck, Lilly.)
A fair, elected government with moderate religious overtones. That'll do, Tunisia, that'll do.
@Mr.333:
[http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j99kJmZ-T4Xg-OvQykgNVRl4JVWw?docId=25862f8e6dc142a2bcea8159333e ffe1](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5j99kJmZ-T4Xg-OvQykgNVRl4JVWw?docId=25862f8e6dc142a2bcea8159333e ffe1)
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/24/us-syria-usa-idUSTRE79N22G20111024
Where do you think that this has the potential to go to?
Dare I hope its the start of another dictator domino falling ?
If Assad does not relent he'll have civil war on his hands.
The possibility of ethnic war is a horrifying possibility.
I don't think Assad will remain in power, but the process toward that end is eons away right now.
Basically he's stirring a much more volatile pot than I think most of us have been aware. That this isn't just dictator versus people.
That ethnic tension is too large, and unlike in Bahrain the regime has only Iran for a real friend.
If this was happening in a vacuum I'd say Assad wins. But too much is happening on the outside for it to die down like Iran 09'.
I mean within just a month here…
-Gaddafi's killing
-Tunisia's election
-and very possibly Saleh stepping down
And in this modern information age all of that will be known to the Syrians.
Those last two may be the two biggest things since Mubarak stepped down in terms of revolutionary morale.
Gaddafi falling is one thing, but to see the immortal god king like image of one of the world's last truly iconic dictators be smashed into a bloody miserable and extroardinarily human cadaver.
Basically....
These people have died and bled for months with little on the outside to really motivate them outside of territorial victories in Libya.
Now these two things have happened.
So, my friend said that Ennahdha claimed to be moderate and they seemed to be, but a lot of people were afraid that they were lying, especially because the leader of this party suddenly and completely changed his views and passed from Radical Islam to a moderate one since the revolution.
People who are afraid of being called atheists or anti-religious preferred to vote for Ennahdha because they divided the nation into True muslims and non-believers.
In any case, she hopes they will be moderate and if they begin to show extremist behaviors they will lose their support. And allegiance between progressive parties (with views closer to the secular) will form a rivalry in power.
The Secular party has won a healthy opposition share I think. So it's like these guys have some absolute power.
Gaddafi's supposed to be buried tomorrow.
I hope they make a cute little gated-off grave thing for him like the Romanians did for Ceausescu.
They're burying him in the desert in a secret location.
I think this discussion is quite interesting: http://forum.tunisia.com/threads/the-historic-23rd-of-october-election-thread.5542/
Reflects the minds of people there.
@Monkey:
They're burying him in the desert in a secret location.
Well that's good. It stops the grave from becoming a shrine for anyone who would view him as a martyr. Though I wonder, did the grave for Ceausescu turn into anything like a shrine?
Some people seem to drop off little trinkets at it, but that's about it for ol' Ceausescu. He wasn't charismatic and he looked like a gnome.
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Also Kyrgyzstan is having elections soon.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-15439287
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From "Tunisia Live":
http://www.tunisia-live.net/2011/10/25/tunisian-elections-live-updates-results/
The protest outside the ISIE Media Center is a bit larger today, probably a bit shy of two hundred people. One sign says “Never Give Up The Fight” and another reads, “Ennahda = 30 TND,” referring to rumors that Ennahda bought votes for thirty Tunisian dinars each.
http://forum.tunisia.com/threads/the-historic-23rd-of-october-election-thread.5542/page-3#post-202490I saw a video on Facebook last night and people from the poorer villages around Tunis were asked to go to the voting poll but they didnt know why. Eventually they were given 30TND each to vote or Ennadha. Corruption will always be a part in the voting system.
I can quite believe that.
I had a dental appointment yesterday morning and my dentist has family living in the South. She said that cash payments had been going on for some time and was not surprised that Ennadha got so many votes as they were also the only party to go into the poorer areas offering jobs etc. etc.
Can't make judgement based on rumors. Nothing has been officially proved. Maybe I am not as optimistic as most but I'd rather keep being skeptical on both sides. Either vote-buying or false rumor-spreading are not uncommon in any way.
But the gab between Ennahda and the other parties was already expected even before the voting started, so anyone surprised about that just wasn't paying enough attention to things there.
And if they were the only party to go to the poorer areas then maybe that's why people there voted for them?
Anyway, voting was done 3 days ago and know we're just waiting for the final results.
:swanson: