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    After Dark Seven, "The 1337 and the Entitled"

    Unofficial One Piece Podcast
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    • Zach Logan
      Zach Logan
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      DOWNLOAD AT: http://onepiecepodcast.com/blog/2011/01/25/after-dark/

      On this After Dark episode of The One Piece Podcast we discuss the recent lawsuit against 1,337 Does who illegally downloaded One Piece as well as answer questions on the legal issues and the implications for One Piece. We also discuss your questions and comments, and where fansubbing stands today and how it affects the series as a whole. We have The Dude, Jason, Firecrouch, Ed, and Zach on to discuss the topic in depth. Hope you enjoy!

      We are Maji, and available in AAC and MP3…

      See you Monday for Episode 154!

      Host and Founder The One Piece Podcast The views expressed are solely my own.

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      • Md-Martin
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        Downloading now(Had nothing to do all night). Really want to here your input especially Zach since your studying Law? Correct?

        Originally Posted by Monkey King

        A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

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        • Chopperrules
          Chopperrules @Md-Martin
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          This is why you guys are awesome. I just read the news about this and you've already done a podcast on it. I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions. Definitely Zach, who has knowledge in this area.

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          • Md-Martin
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            Listening to you guys talking about the younger children and downloading. I wanted to put my input on this, because I was 10 when I got into One Piece, and 11 when I joined this site. At the time I did not know that downloading fansubs were bad, I remember getting Kaizoku Fansubs for the first couple of arcs, and putting them on my PSP and bringing them to middle school. It wasn't until I began to really start researching Anime as a whole at that age when I realized the dubbing process, and how companies need to buy the license and dub the show.

            What was brought up was kind of sad, that some of these people could be 12 or 13 year old's that have just gotten into One Piece, and doing this, and while Ed did state that there are warnings everywhere these days, as a kid of that age, you don't take them seriously. How many adults regularly download pirated music, and aren't that wary about punishment, but imagine a 12 or 13 year old being raised in the digital age. They won't think they are doing anything wrong, and as Ed said, they may end up learning the hard way.

            Now I'm not defending the defendants in this, as it is most likely older people who have done this. I am a strong supporter of Funimation and am happy that they are taking this sort of action with a show that has not done successful on TV, and that says something

            Originally Posted by Monkey King

            A magical strange Twilight Zone episode where no other education is offered, and the only option is Bill Nye the Science Guy videos

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            • Envy
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              I have to say, you guys are really preaching to the choir with me.

              Here I go… again... sorry. lol

              Your frustrations with people still illegally downloading the episodes when it is available to them for free, legally, and one hour after it airs in Japan are completely understandable to me. In fact, I can not even begin to write out much it infuriates me.

              People and their dumb excuses. I just saw somebody on another forum rant about how it is justifiable because the streams are of "awful" video quality and because of the watermark in the bottom right hand corner. The watermark. Is that really even an excuse? Do people actually feel that way?

              These were the same excuses I saw when the Simulcast first came around. I just can't understand it. Maybe it's because I never felt I was entitled to downloading the episodes (meaning I never really saw them in HD). But even with my 24" monitor I still can not understand how this HD is so important to people. Of course it would be nice, but we aren't even paying for this. It's just really sad that people feel that they are actually entitled to HD quality and think that they are actually validated in "boycotting" the Simulcast because it isn't in HD quality.

              Anyway, Zach knows how frustrated I get with the people who upload the FUNimation dubs/subs, as well. I just wish that site I showed you (Zach) would get action taken against them. Or just at least get that stupid topic deleted. If I see one more member say in that topic "Hurry up and dub Season 4, FUNimation! (Implied: So I can download it for free just like every other set)" I will snap. If I haven't enough already. =|

              Anyway, sorry for another rant. I just don't understand people when it comes to this… How they can have such false entitlement.

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              • Chopperrules
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                I hate to say it like this, but 85% of anime fans are conceited assholes. It's up to the remaining 15% of logical fans to try and bring down that percentage.

                While I've never really understood why the public looks down on anime so much (in American anyway), perhaps this has something to do with it?

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                  GumGumBattleAxe @Chopperrules
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                  @Chopperrules:

                  I hate to say it like this, but 85% of anime fans are conceited assholes.

                  AGREED!!!!!

                  pretty soon parents are going to have to sit their kids down and in addition to the birds and the bees talk, the don't hit other people talk, the stand up for yourself but don't be a bully talk, they'll have to start adding the 'don't pirate stuff off the internet' talk. hey, younger and younger people are knowing the internet…

                  ............don't copy that floppy?

                  http://www.youtube.com/stephencolbertrulz

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                  • sanji499
                    sanji499 @GumGumBattleAxe
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                    They complain too much. It is already 480p and its an eye candy for me on hulu.

                    In any case, people don't realize that with the net you can access the world but the other way around works too.

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                    • m00n
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                      There are 1337 people from America and 22,648 people downloaded this overall. Meaning less than 6% of the downloads came from simulcast blessed countries. And you want to Funimation to take the fansubgroup itself down? You want me to hack Funimations servers instead? Go there via a proxy server? I did that the first 2 or 3 weeks of the simulcast. They got so much flag from Toei for people outside of Funimations contract area accessing their streams that they had to hire the web security company Navaree and had them rebuild their entire page to prevent this from happening. If I go to their side with a proxy server, I make Funimation break it's contracts with Toei which regulate Funimations area of distribution.

                      Today Funis page is a castle against proxy servers, even with a proxy that can fool Youtube into believing I'm from the US doesn't let me play streams on there. So go ahead and curse those 1337 people as you wish, but stop promoting the end of fansubs. If you honestly believe that you could get a simulcast everywhere with just a few letters to the (oftentimes nonexistent) national copyright holder, you are just wrong. Most places don't have a population of 300 million people that have the time, the computer and the internet access to make such a simulcast and it's advertisement effect profitable.

                      You have an international audience. Please stop thinking in the box start to think internationally.

                      Thank you.

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                      • Ao Kiji
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                        i think part of it is that 14-year-olds nowadays tend to be entitled, dumb, and obnoxious..and most anime fans try their hardest to remain emotionally 14 years old for as long as possible.

                        i understand the plight of international fans, but i also just really want U.S. fans to get it together are start supporting the legal releases of one piece–one of them is on the internet FOR FREE.

                        i definitely would like it if funi put up recent episodes on youtube, like they do with brotherhood.

                        Originally Posted by Mog

                        Also, it's a children's comic from Japan.

                        Why are you comparing it to cultural engravings and burritos.

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                        • T
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                          Funimation just needs to make their streaming available to all countries, dammit. 😧 (or at least my own :ninja:)

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                          • MikeyDPirate
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                            I feel like we need to have a thread called "Funimation Dreams…". There we can talk about all the things that Funi wants like....an international simulcast.

                            Status: Stuff stuff. Been too lazy to update this space.

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                              @MikeyDPirate:

                              I feel like we need to have a thread called "Funimation Dreams…". There we can talk about all the things that Funi wants like....an international simulcast.

                              *sigh…...ahhhhhhhh.......every subbed episode with an accompanying dubbed one at onepieceofficial.com.......ahhhhh we can dream can't we?

                              http://www.youtube.com/stephencolbertrulz

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                              • firecrouch
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                                The thing is I don't think FUNimation chooses to not have an international simulcast. I honestly it's just that they don't have the means to.

                                Blog last updated 01/31/2013:

                                [http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/

                                Nintendo Network ID: firekrouch](http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/)

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                                • Chopperrules
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                                  @firecrouch:

                                  The thing is I don't think FUNimation chooses to not have an international simulcast. I honestly it's just that they don't have the means to.

                                  Too bad there's not much we as fans can do to help with that other than buying the sets, which probably won't do anything much anyway since it's most likely a legal issue with Toei.

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                                  • stephen
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                                    @firecrouch:

                                    The thing is I don't think FUNimation chooses to not have an international simulcast. I honestly it's just that they don't have the means to.

                                    Yep, you have to imagine that when Toei make deals to broadcasters in other countries part of the negotiation is giving that partner exclusive rights in that territory. Even though it might be a different language than what all those countries actually speak, Toei still has to stipulate that Funimation is restricted to offering only to their territory. Otherwise they'd be breaking the terms of their deals with the video companies in Europe, South America, Asia, etc.

                                    https://twitter.com/translatosaurus

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                                    • Chopperrules
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                                      Thanks all of you who were on this special episode. It was a very interesting listen and all of you had excellent points and views on the matter at hand. And I agree entirely.

                                      I was thinking while listening… Maybe we should all work together and try and make a petition and/or write to Toei about taking action to make the simulcast available everywhere outside of Japan. Right now, that is the only gray area in this debate that is getting in the way. But if we are able to successfully remove that gray area completely, there will be absolutely no reason for any fansub group to continue posting episodes anywhere around the world. I think Toei needs to be made aware of this if they want fansubs of One Piece to completely fizzle out.

                                      What do you guys think about that?

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                                        @Chopperrules:

                                        Too bad there's not much we as fans can do to help with that other than buying the sets, which probably won't do anything much anyway since it's most likely a legal issue with Toei.

                                        And if people want it streamed in their countries, they need to pester (politely) the anime companies near them that could make that happen. For example, I bet if enough people got on Manga UK they'd turn around from their current position of the license being too expensive. It's just gotta be worth their while.

                                        I doubt any company's just going to get blanket rights to stream One Piece (or anything) in every country. Granted, I don't know the resources you'd need to be able to do that but I would not be suprised if they were beyond the scope of any one company. Let's not even get into the different copyright laws of every country involved.

                                        Matt Penn

                                        –

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                                          You touched on it a little but glossed over it in the podcast, focusing instead on other aspects. I realize before this gets under way that I agree people should watch it on the official website, I always do so please leave the red haring issues at the door and remain focused on my point. So Zack if you are in law school you should be able to tell me, why is it illegal? Does it being on the internet change copyright law? Ever sense the nabster rulings there has been precedent in this kind of lawsuit and as it has monied interest behind it they usually succeed but I deny the legal basis of it.Not to get into to much legalize so I will try to use as little latin as possible xD.

                                          Basically you can record a movie off the TV, you can then watch that movie later as many times as you want, with or without commercials entirely within your discretion. You can then lend this video out to a friend or show anyone you want you just can't make money off this. There is nothing in the law that says you actually need to be friends with the person you give the movie to, nor is there a limit on how many people you can give it to. So suddenly because it is over the internet this action becomes illegal? Or are you arguing that this action should have been illegal all along and it simply was never written down, passed, or enforced and now should be.

                                          Going back to the nabster case, the argument was that if this action is allowed to continue it will bankrupt the music industry which you touch on is the argument toy is using, but is that even an argument that should be considered? It would suck yes and everyone deserves such a right but that fact does not change written law, which should be applied blindly. Maybe the law should be changed but to just ignore it because a certain industry might get hurt is indeed disturbing.

                                          Heck your probably still in school and will probably be a better lawyer than I because you are better at ignoring actual law and sucking up to industry, the makings of any good corporate lawyer. For me my principles get in the way, which is never a good thing for lawyers.

                                          Zach Logan 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                          • Zach Logan
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                                            @General:

                                            You touched on it a little but glossed over it in the podcast, focusing instead on other aspects. I realize before this gets under way that I agree people should watch it on the official website, I always do so please leave the red haring issues at the door and remain focused on my point. So Zack if you are in law school you should be able to tell me, why is it illegal? Does it being on the internet change copyright law? Ever sense the nabster rulings there has been precedent in this kind of lawsuit and as it has monied interest behind it they usually succeed but I deny the legal basis of it.Not to get into to much legalize so I will try to use as little latin as possible xD.

                                            Basically you can record a movie off the TV, you can then watch that movie later as many times as you want, with or without commercials entirely within your discretion. You can then lend this video out to a friend or show anyone you want you just can't make money off this. There is nothing in the law that says you actually need to be friends with the person you give the movie to, nor is there a limit on how many people you can give it to. So suddenly because it is over the internet this action becomes illegal? Or are you arguing that this action should have been illegal all along and it simply was never written down, passed, or enforced and now should be.

                                            Going back to the nabster case, the argument was that if this action is allowed to continue it will bankrupt the music industry which you touch on is the argument toy is using, but is that even an argument that should be considered? It would suck yes and everyone deserves such a right but that fact does not change written law, which should be applied blindly. Maybe the law should be changed but to just ignore it because a certain industry might get hurt is indeed disturbing.

                                            Heck your probably still in school and will probably be a better lawyer than I because you are better at ignoring actual law and sucking up to industry, the makings of any good corporate lawyer. For me my principles get in the way, which is never a good thing for lawyers.

                                            First: It's "Napster" not "nabster"

                                            Second: I'd never, ever be a corporate lawyer. Just no, I'm not pro-corporation, I'm pro-law. I don't side with FUNimation because their a corporation, I side with them because they have a property and other people are stealing that property for their own use and to additionally distribute it to others via a torrenting service (which acts peer to peer and thus it is like you're getting a bootleg VHS and distributing it to others as well, at least in part).

                                            Third: Copyright Law doesn't change on the Internet, though I'm sure there's a whole set of policies for Internet usage. I haven't taken Copyright Law, and I've mentioned many, many times that I am speaking from a very limited perspective. However, what you are saying is utterly incoherent. I can't grasp what point you're trying to make, and if I understand it correctly, it's flawed.

                                            The reason I'm pro-FUNimation here is because there are people in that company who will lose their jobs because of the proliferation of fansubs. Many, many hundreds already have: VIZ recently shut down it's NY branch and downsized significantly, ADV shut down, and many other companies no longer exist because of this. I care about people, just not the people who are taking advantage of this situation.

                                            Host and Founder The One Piece Podcast The views expressed are solely my own.

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                                            • firecrouch
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                                              In order to get an international simulcast you're gonna have to go to Toei Animation, they're the ones that decide what to do with the property, along with Fuji TV and Shueisha. I'm sure Manga UK would love to do anything with "One Piece" but Toei Animation has made too high of a licensing cost for them.

                                              Thing is Toei Animation has branches all over the world that work in each respective territory. For example, Toei Animation Inc. is headquarted in Los Angeles and deals with North America, Latin America, and I believe Australia and New Zealand. Toei Animation Europe is headquartered in France and deals with Europe. So if you wanted a simulcast it'd have to be a region-by-region basis. I'd put up the contact info for each branch (which is easy to find) with Zach Logan's permission.

                                              Blog last updated 01/31/2013:

                                              [http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/

                                              Nintendo Network ID: firekrouch](http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/)

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                                              • m00n
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                                                No, it's not just the licensing Firecrouch. You have to pay translators, administrators and apparently web security companies as well. All of these costs have to be equaled out by increased DVD sales and a few pens in advertisement revenue. To my knowledge no company has revealed sales numbers that would prove this works in a country with a population of 300 million. With the fix costs staying this same, how can it possibly work in places like the Netherlands (17 kk), Denmark (5,5 kk) or Portugal (11 kk)?? There's maybe handful markets around the world that have a chance of getting their hands on a simulcast but for the rest it does not work. For the vast majority of others there is no way in hell to get a simulcast because their population and linguistic community is just not big enough.

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                                                • firecrouch
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                                                  Hm, if only FUNimation was set up like Crunchyroll where they got the rights to a bunch of different regions.

                                                  Blog last updated 01/31/2013:

                                                  [http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/

                                                  Nintendo Network ID: firekrouch](http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/)

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                                                    General Iroh @Zach Logan
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                                                    @Zach:

                                                    First: It's "Napster" not "nabster"

                                                    Second: I'd never, ever be a corporate lawyer. Just no, I'm not pro-corporation, I'm pro-law. I don't side with FUNimation because their a corporation, I side with them because they have a property and other people are stealing that property for their own use and to additionally distribute it to others via a torrenting service (which acts peer to peer and thus it is like you're getting a bootleg VHS and distributing it to others as well, at least in part).

                                                    Third: Copyright Law doesn't change on the Internet, though I'm sure there's a whole set of policies for Internet usage. I haven't taken Copyright Law, and I've mentioned many, many times that I am speaking from a very limited perspective. However, what you are saying is utterly incoherent. I can't grasp what point you're trying to make, and if I understand it correctly, it's flawed.

                                                    The reason I'm pro-FUNimation here is because there are people in that company who will lose their jobs because of the proliferation of fansubs. Many, many hundreds already have: VIZ recently shut down it's NY branch and downsized significantly, ADV shut down, and many other companies no longer exist because of this. I care about people, just not the people who are taking advantage of this situation.

                                                    nabster did look wrong I should have taken the 2 second to google it, my bad. As for claiming you are prolaw with no reasoning is what doesn't make sense as it is exactly what I am debating, even if you just accepted it as a given it is not. A more appropriate phrase would be pro justice, which is another matter entirely. You indeed can be pro FUNimation but that doesn't mean pro law or vice versa. My example was I thought fairly clear but I will explain it further, if you have more questions feel free to ask and when you do please try and refrain from loaded language especially against an unconvicted party.

                                                    My story of recording a video from the TV was to show a common practice and I pushed the line. What I ask of you, is to tell me at what point in the story a law is being broken. Without the melodrama I will try again. Person Z records One piece movie 6 shown on his local anime channel, he then edits it carefully removing any commercials. Z watches it a few times by himself, he then invites a few friends over to share what he thinks is a great movie. First time he does it he invites his 3 close friends and gives them a copy to watch. As they all liked it so he decides to shows it at his anime club with 30 people and gives them all a copy as well. As they all like it he decides to show it to a massive crowd of 2000 of which he lets them all have a copy as well, just gives it out. He thinks that if all those people liked it there must be others so he puts it on the internet so anyone who wanted could download it from him. So at what point is the law broken? Or did my slope miss the mark again and become unclear?

                                                    The point of this, is I get mad when people ignorantly think the law is on someones side just because they think it is just. Just because people will lose their jobs does not mean the law is on their side.

                                                    I will end on another question, (which I think you mentioned once or twice on the podcast) If you watch one piece on www.onepieceofficial.com but use an adblocking program, are you just as guilty as someone who watched on a different site?

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                                                    • m00n
                                                      m00n @General Iroh
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                                                      Funny how contribution to discussion always stops from the podcast side when you are asked a non trivial question.

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                                                      • J-Sack
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                                                        I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I let those ads run the first go around. Only time I ever use a blocker, is when recording due to timing. Hell, after that I usually run the episode again with the ads while I head out for the evening.

                                                        As for the story, I don't study law. I don't know. I think it is when anything is ripped, but I don't know. I know downloading is illegal. So if it is uploaded, it is being made for illegal distribution which would probably be illegal.

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                                                        • Zach Logan
                                                          Zach Logan
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                                                          @J-Sack:

                                                          I can't speak for everyone, but for me, I let those ads run the first go around. Only time I ever use a blocker, is when recording due to timing. Hell, after that I usually run the episode again with the ads while I head out for the evening.

                                                          As for the story, I don't study law. I don't know. I think it is when anything is ripped, but I don't know. I know downloading is illegal. So if it is uploaded, it is being made for illegal distribution which would probably be illegal.

                                                          Yeah, that's always the case. I think we mentioned the reason that we use it while recording the Anime Recap is just so we can keep the flow of conversation steady.

                                                          I also wasn't avoiding answering the question, I'm just a little peeved that I'm being asked the same question over and over. I never said the moral issues are clear and definable, because I'm not sure they are. However, your argument that I am pro-justice and not pro-law is topsy turvy. The law inherently protects those who create a product. If it didn't we wouldn't have copyright laws, we wouldn't have patent laws. Though courts may not always rule in favor one way or the other, our system of laws – in the United States -- are built to protect intellectual property so we don't have to constantly worry about someone else stealing it or someone else reproducing and profiting off our product/show/etc.,

                                                          It's as simple as that.

                                                          FUNimation is completely within their rights to use the law to their ends because it is their intellectual property that other people are using beyond the allowances of the law.

                                                          It's as simple as that.

                                                          Whether they win or not, who knows, but it's likelier they do from where I'm watching this. Of course when you add other substantial factors it becomes more and more morally and lawfully ambiguous, but that's why we have the court system: to determine whether your actions fall within certain laws, statutes, common law provisions. In your hypothetical, we'd have to look at precedent and see what court's have ruled. Since I have a life and many more important things to do, I'm not going to humor you with that. Hire a lawyer if your concerned about getting sued. It may not be a terrible move.

                                                          With that, I'm ending discussion, this back-and-forth has gotten repetitive and cyclical. Go to the thread on the FUNimation Forum if you're still concerned.

                                                          Host and Founder The One Piece Podcast The views expressed are solely my own.

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