What do you think of the way women are portrayed in OP?
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its called sense of humour
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I'm guessing you enjoy black jokes too.
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I guess if it makes me laugh is okay, i also enjoy satire, have you ever seen Goya's: Los Caprichos? no work of art is done outside its time and age, society and human condition, so does not one piece live outside those parameters.
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Estimations of general female portrayal in One Piece in few important points - I ordered it more or less from bigger to lesser importance in general view, the same categories assigned to singular character would be in different order.
diversity of characters: 5 that part is done right
active attitude in life: 4+ generally good, but sometimes they fall bit behind men
competence: 4+ they are usually very competent in their chosen fields and in fights (if they are fighters in the first place) but sometimes Oda seem to forget about the fact that they should be able to do something
number: 2 because Oda managed to put two women in the main group (that's not that bad), otherwise women are generally underrepresented (there is too few of them in comparison to men),
psychological portrayal: 4+ overly good, but they just should have more space on the panels to develop
in social situations: 5 in no position of servitude towards men, they also have different topics to talk about than men, making friendships and other personal relations on their own and not being given them
position of political power: 3+ there are few women in that position, in Piracy (one younko, one shichibukai, one supernova), Marine (one viceadmiral, and rest of female marines are high at least captains or promoted to that positions in the story), there are also women of political power in civil world like Vivi and Otohime, the only reason the mark isnt higher is that it's still to few of them
story relevance: 3 are relevant, but aren't usually key payers in the main plot
visual portrayal: 3 to little diversity, they are usually either attractive, with one body type (too exaggerated even for manga) or ugly, pluses: Kuja Tribe have different body types, specil nomination for Sandersonia, who is "cute monster girl" and Marigold who is "big beautiful woman", facial features are much more diverse than body types, especially mermaids. We can argue if they show to much skin, and if it objectification or just the fact that everyone isn't that much covered, I frankly have hard time estimating this. But on another plus side there are no panty shots every other chapter, like it takes place in someā¦ cough, cough... other manga.
being flashed out: 3 they really could do in some more space on panels showing how cool/competent/interesting characters they areof course if we discuss and aspects, about witch I haven't thought would surface I can reevaluate my views.
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Estimations of general female portrayal in One Piece in few important points - I ordered it more or less from bigger to lesser importance in general view, the same categories assigned to singular character would be in different order.
diversity of characters: 5 that part is done right
active attitude in life: 4+ generally good, but sometimes they fall bit behind men
competence: 4+ they are usually very competent in their chosen fields and in fights (if they are fighters in the first place) but sometimes Oda seem to forget about the fact that they should be able to do something
number: 2 because Oda managed to put two women in the main group (that's not that bad), otherwise women are generally underrepresented (there is too few of them in comparison to men),
psychological portrayal: 4+ overly good, but they just should have more space on the panels to develop
in social situations: 5 in no position of servitude towards men, they also have different topics to talk about than men, making friendships and other personal relations on their own and not being given them
position of political power: 3+ there are few women in that position, in Piracy (one younko, one shichibukai, one supernova), Marine (one viceadmiral, and rest of female marines are high at least captains or promoted to that positions in the story), there are also women of political power in civil world like Vivi and Otohime, the only reason the mark isnt higher is that it's still to few of them
story relevance: 3 are relevant, but aren't usually key payers in the main plot
visual portrayal: 3 to little diversity, they are usually either attractive, with one body type (too exaggerated even for manga) or ugly, pluses: Kuja Tribe have different body types, specil nomination for Sandersonia, who is "cute monster girl" and Marigold who is "big beautiful woman", facial features are much more diverse than body types, especially mermaids. We can argue if they show to much skin, and if it objectification or just the fact that everyone isn't that much covered, I frankly have hard time estimating this. But on another plus side there are no panty shots every other chapter, like it takes place in someā¦ cough, cough... other manga.
being flashed out: 3 they really could do in some more space on panels showing how cool/competent/interesting characters they areof course if we discuss and aspects, about witch I haven't thought would surface I can reevaluate my views.
I like how you think, this thread should be done by now before it get to the masses and affect our favourite manga.
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I like how you think, this thread should be done by now before it get to the masses and affect our favourite manga.
How I interpreted this post: "OMG! Hide the thread from OP fans lest they know the true evil that lurks within the serie! They must be kept from the truth! If folks discovered that OP had elements of sexism in it, they will hate the serie for sure, the numbers will plummet, and OP will be cancelled!"
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but let them think for themself, dont let it become a trend! dunno about you but thats not the way i think
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I'm guessing you enjoy black jokes too.
Oh God. please now no one can ever enjoy a joke! this is a bad road arlong park, I mean it's bad enough hearing about sexism every chapter, even when there's none, we really really don't need this
There's a difference between enjoying a little joke about race, religion, sex or ethnicity and being a prejudice asshole
Hell I've heard people make fun of their own race/sex, or enjoy one, if a girl chuckles at a joke geared towards the difference between girls and boys is she now a sexist? If your answer is yes then I doubt you get along with many people or your only acting this way cause your on the internet
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There is a thing called Acceptanceā¦ One Piece is also liked by those who are criticizing it.
Comments like; if you don't like it then stop reading it, or if you don't like it don't talk about it.... They don't fly.
Coming up with farfetched theory's which are in itself contradictory or defending such a clear and obvious issue with in depth analysis is rather annoying. -
but let them think for themself, dont let it become a trend! dunno about you but thats not the way i think
Are you insinuating that the argument for sexism is a trend and your perspective is completely original and thought out without any influences from other's perspectives? Therefore, since they are all trend followers, their perspectives shouldn't be taken seriously and the thread should be hidden away and forgotten. In result, their input are of lesser value then yours? Wow, you sir are a conceited rump.
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Oh God. please now no one can ever enjoy a joke! this is a bad road arlong park, I mean it's bad enough hearing about sexism every chapter, even when there's none, we really really don't need this
There's a difference between enjoying a little joke about race, religion, sex or ethnicity and being a prejudice asshole
Hell I've heard people make fun of their own race/sex, or enjoy one, if a girl chuckles at a joke geared towards the difference between girls and boys is she now a sexist? If your answer is yes then I doubt you get along with many people or your only acting this way cause your on the internet
i know right, thats exactly how i feel
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so this is going down as the worst ap thread 2012, right?
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Oh God. please now no one can ever enjoy a joke! this is a bad road arlong park, I mean it's bad enough hearing about sexism every chapter, even when there's none, we really really don't need this
There's a difference between enjoying a little joke about race, religion, sex or ethnicity and being a prejudice asshole
Hell I've heard people make fun of their own race/sex, or enjoy one, if a girl chuckles at a joke geared towards the difference between girls and boys is she now a sexist? If your answer is yes then I doubt you get along with many people or your only acting this way cause your on the internet
Is it really so wrong to say that we don't need to have our laughs at the expense of a particular group? Yes I understand the difference. There's a difference between making a small joke about a group and making a group into a joke to the point where they are dehumanized.
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I've seen denial before and some of you guys are right behind the most stubborn people I've come across, and I've come across VERY Stubborn people.
Edit: @Mamori, Nah The Nakama Thread is a 1000x worse. -
Is it really so wrong to say that we don't need to have our laughs at the expense of a particular group? Yes I understand the difference. There's a difference between making a small joke about a group and making a group into a joke to the point where they are dehumanized.
Are you done preaching yet? Why don't you just become an human rights activist instead of whining on these forums and making it less enjoyable for everyone else.
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ā¦.? Okay, In a thread about sensitive social issues....? Though this is somewhat off-topic I guess, not that I brought it there.
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ā¦.? Okay, In a thread about sensitive social issues....? Though this is somewhat off-topic I guess, not that I brought it there.
I don't understand what your trying to say but this thread is annoying and repetitive, it should have been closed a long time ago.
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Yeah, and as if the new-kamas weren't totally exploited for gross-out factor and Sanji torture gags. Honestly, their portrayal suffers way more than that of the women.
I was honestly always puzzled why the depictions of the newkamas never evoked much controversy, at least from what I've seen around here. Kamabakka in general and their depiction as monstrous hedonistic rapists struck me as being way more offensive than anything Oda's done with his female cast.
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Are you insinuating that the argument for sexism is a trend and your perspective is completely original and thought out without any influences from other's perspectives? Therefore, since they are all trend followers, their perspectives shouldn't be taken seriously and the thread should be hidden away and forgotten. In result, their input are of lesser value then yours? Wow, you sir are a conceited rump.
haha it amazes me how simple can you be, have you been watching too much t.v lately? im saying every idea should be taked with a grain of salt, wich most people dont do.
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haha it amazes me how simple can you be, have you been watching too much t.v lately? im saying every idea should be taked with a grain of salt, wich most people dont do.
Actually those who are criticizing it are taking it with a grain of salt. Its those who are defending it who are taking it to the extreme rather than acknowledging that sexism and double standards exist in the series.
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WHERE ARE YOU MODS?!!! Just close this thread and save humanity!
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I like how you think, this thread should be done by now before it get to the masses and affect our favourite manga.
But wait, what is this suppose to mean then? You should take ideas with a grain of salt, YET bury this thread before it ahem affects the manga? So we should take your ideas seriously while disregarding others? So, in other words, let us bury the perspectives that counter yours since they are not even worth thinking about? (Or heck, even detrimental to the manga itself?)
You are silly
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@Foxy:
WHERE ARE YOU MODS?!!! Just close this thread and save humanity!
A word of advice, don't come in this thread.
Others who haven't talked about this might want to. Just because a few members have already discussed this topic to death don't mean its done and over with.
Read Hattori's first post, when this thread was revived.Chapter 687, You probably had to suffer through it since you didn't have a choice of choosing the topic you want to read, even though it was a nice discussion. But here you have a choice. Don't come in.
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@Foxy:
I don't understand what your trying to say but this thread is annoying and repetitive, it should have been closed a long time ago.
I'm wondering how I can possibly be ruining anyone's day by posting about prejudice in a thread about prejudice. It's not like I'm taking this discussion to places where it doesn't belong. It is well within every user's power to ignore this thread if they are uninterested.
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I'm wondering how I can possibly be ruining anyone's day by posting about prejudice in a thread about prejudice. It's not like I'm taking this discussion to places where it doesn't belong. It is well within every user's power to ignore this thread if they are uninterested.
I would love to ignore it, but it's being dragged into every other thread.
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But then if you lock this thread, it HAS to go into the other threads. This way, at least some of it is contained.
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Estimations of general female portrayal in One Piece in few important points - I ordered it more or less from bigger to lesser importance in general view, the same categories assigned to singular character would be in different order.
diversity of characters: 5 that part is done right
active attitude in life: 4+ generally good, but sometimes they fall bit behind men
competence: 4+ they are usually very competent in their chosen fields and in fights (if they are fighters in the first place) but sometimes Oda seem to forget about the fact that they should be able to do something
number: 2 because Oda managed to put two women in the main group (that's not that bad), otherwise women are generally underrepresented (there is too few of them in comparison to men),
psychological portrayal: 4+ overly good, but they just should have more space on the panels to develop
in social situations: 5 in no position of servitude towards men, they also have different topics to talk about than men, making friendships and other personal relations on their own and not being given them
position of political power: 3+ there are few women in that position, in Piracy (one younko, one shichibukai, one supernova), Marine (one viceadmiral, and rest of female marines are high at least captains or promoted to that positions in the story), there are also women of political power in civil world like Vivi and Otohime, the only reason the mark isnt higher is that it's still to few of them
story relevance: 3 are relevant, but aren't usually key payers in the main plot
visual portrayal: 3 to little diversity, they are usually either attractive, with one body type (too exaggerated even for manga) or ugly, pluses: Kuja Tribe have different body types, specil nomination for Sandersonia, who is "cute monster girl" and Marigold who is "big beautiful woman", facial features are much more diverse than body types, especially mermaids. We can argue if they show to much skin, and if it objectification or just the fact that everyone isn't that much covered, I frankly have hard time estimating this. But on another plus side there are no panty shots every other chapter, like it takes place in someā¦ cough, cough... other manga.
being flashed out: 3 they really could do in some more space on panels showing how cool/competent/interesting characters they areof course if we discuss and aspects, about witch I haven't thought would surface I can reevaluate my views.
This was a good post.You just showed the problem
The problem is that the females are just "okay". One of the biggest reasons I like One piece is the characters .
This is why I still read it.Not bacause of the fights,the plot(it's good,but not amazing) or the simple lessons.
We have great male characters and even Okama characters. But the females are just "fine".
I don't know if I have too big standards for this manga,but I will like something better than okay and fine. -
so this is going down as the worst ap thread 2012, right?
You're butthurt because your arguments got utterly destroyed and you were chased out of the thread? I'd expect as much.
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Yeah, and as if the new-kamas weren't totally exploited for gross-out factor and Sanji torture gags. Honestly, their portrayal suffers way more than that of the women.
I was honestly always puzzled why the depictions of the newkamas never evoked much controversy, at least from what I've seen around here. Kamabakka in general and their depiction as monstrous hedonistic rapists struck me as being way more offensive than anything Oda's done with his female cast.
Came in to say this. It's only a "funny gag" as far as many mainstream cultures still seeing crossdressers as a hilarious novelty and crossdressing gay men as rapacious monsters. The implications of these views are quite serious indeed, and very much worth talking about.
And this thread is doing just fine. It's prompting the kind of discussion that the OP intended [errrā¦ the recent OP. Hattori]. Don't like it? Is it making youā¦ uncomfortable? It should. The next step is to think about why you actually do agree with the ideas being discussed, or, alternatively, why it's pissing you off so much to have people talking about these things that you disagree with. There's no objectively "correct" answer. If your discontent is really that strong, one click of the big banner at the top of your screen will warp you out of here. No need to stay.
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I was honestly always puzzled why the depictions of the newkamas never evoked much controversy, at least from what I've seen around here. Kamabakka in general and their depiction as monstrous hedonistic rapists struck me as being way more offensive than anything Oda's done with his female cast.
What really puzzled me about this is that earlier the newkamas were completely depicted in a different light. I felt that the bit with Ivankov was particularly strong in emphasizing that people are people and being one gender or the other is irrelevant.
And then a couple chapters later the okamas are marine eating monsters ā¦ and frankly it seems like it was done mostly out of the desire to terrorize Sanji.
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This post is deleted!
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Estimations of general female portrayal in One Piece in few important points - I ordered it more or less from bigger to lesser importance in general view, the same categories assigned to singular character would be in different order.
diversity of characters: 5 that part is done right
active attitude in life: 4+ generally good, but sometimes they fall bit behind men
competence: 4+ they are usually very competent in their chosen fields and in fights (if they are fighters in the first place) but sometimes Oda seem to forget about the fact that they should be able to do something
number: 2 because Oda managed to put two women in the main group (that's not that bad), otherwise women are generally underrepresented (there is too few of them in comparison to men),
psychological portrayal: 4+ overly good, but they just should have more space on the panels to develop
in social situations: 5 in no position of servitude towards men, they also have different topics to talk about than men, making friendships and other personal relations on their own and not being given them
position of political power: 3+ there are few women in that position, in Piracy (one younko, one shichibukai, one supernova), Marine (one viceadmiral, and rest of female marines are high at least captains or promoted to that positions in the story), there are also women of political power in civil world like Vivi and Otohime, the only reason the mark isnt higher is that it's still to few of them
story relevance: 3 are relevant, but aren't usually key payers in the main plot
visual portrayal: 3 to little diversity, they are usually either attractive, with one body type (too exaggerated even for manga) or ugly, pluses: Kuja Tribe have different body types, specil nomination for Sandersonia, who is "cute monster girl" and Marigold who is "big beautiful woman", facial features are much more diverse than body types, especially mermaids. We can argue if they show to much skin, and if it objectification or just the fact that everyone isn't that much covered, I frankly have hard time estimating this. But on another plus side there are no panty shots every other chapter, like it takes place in someā¦ cough, cough... other manga.
being flashed out: 3 they really could do in some more space on panels showing how cool/competent/interesting characters they areof course if we discuss and aspects, about witch I haven't thought would surface I can reevaluate my views.
I like how you broke the theme apart. However, I`m not sure if its the layout of the post but it gets rather confusing in the middle. I start seeing numbers which I canĀ“t associate with characteristic. Please Help me :blink::blink:
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Wait, you guys say that the Newkamas tried to actually rape Sanji? Where do you get that from? All they wanted was to turn him into one of them?
I remember that Ivankov grabbed the crotch of a Marine, but that didn't strike me as a form of sexual abuse. He was taking advantage of the fact that he doesn't care about gender specifc taboo's when it comes to fighting males.
The other incident I can think of was the Newkama who had the head of a Marine in his mouth, but hey if that is how you picture a monster, Luffy says hi.
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Anything else? -
@Foxy:
I would love to ignore it, but it's being dragged into every other thread.
you mean somebody is interested enough in content of this tread to refer to it in every other thread?
I haven't seen it. not that I browse every other tread. There is sometimes discussion about gender issues in chapter threads, but aside from thatā¦ well maybe people criticize Oda's portrayal of female in criticism thread -
Wait, you guys say that the Newkamas tried to actually rape Sanji? Where do you get that from? All they wanted was to turn him into one of them?
Wait Jabra; WHAT?:blink:
Who tried to rape Sanji? -This is a perfect example of how a gossip spreads out and conquers the world-. Oh dear, this thread gets better and better please keep them posts coming AP.
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If you think OP's take on Okama is a new thing, then you haven't seen Japan's take on the notion of Okama. OP is merely perpetuating the common perception of a stereotypical Okama image in Japan that has persisted throughout the 20th century.
The Okama look bizarre in the comic, but that is generally how they look in standard Japanese media as a caricature (unless you are counting new-halves which are a completely different).
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You're butthurt because your arguments got utterly destroyed and you were chased out of the thread? I'd expect as much.
take a look, you could use them -
Wait Jabra; WHAT?:blink:
Who tried to rape Sanji? -This is a perfect example of how a gossip spreads out and conquers the world-. Oh dear, this thread gets better and better please keep them posts coming AP.Kamabakka in general and their depiction as monstrous hedonistic rapists struck me as being way more offensive than anything Oda's done with his female cast. I don't know how putting him in a dress equals rape, but maybe I'm missing something?
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Wait, you guys say that the Newkamas tried to actually rape Sanji? Where do you get that from? All they wanted was to turn him into one of them?
Rape actually has a much broader definition than simply non-consensual sex. Any sort of forceful violation of personal effects or property whether they are sexual in nature or not can fall under that word's purview.
What really puzzled me about this is that earlier the newkamas were completely depicted in a different light. I felt that the bit with Ivankov was particularly strong in emphasizing that people are people and being one gender or the other is irrelevant.
And then a couple chapters later the okamas are marine eating monsters ā¦ and frankly it seems like it was done mostly out of the desire to terrorize Sanji.
Yeah, I had thought the Kamabakkans had gone crazy or astray without Ivankov there to lead them, but nope.
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I like how you broke the theme apart. However, I`m not sure if its the layout of the post but it gets rather confusing in the middle. I start seeing numbers which I canĀ“t associate with characteristic. Please Help me :blink::blink:
I pointed out basic important aspects of portrayal
I used numbers as they were marks in school. 0=terrible, 1-bad, 2-quite bad, 3 average, 4-quite good, 5-really good, 6-exceptional.
I gave short comment for each aspects, explaining why I gave such a mark
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I don't know how putting him in a dress equals rape, but maybe I'm missing something?
Ohh, I see where you are coming from now.
Well, I wouldnĀ“t call them rapists per se; instead they are playing a "harassment " role of sorts. Please correct me if I`m wrong but wouldnĀ“t trying to put someone into another genderĀ“s attire count as a kind of "sexual Harassment"? I might be wrong but the phychological impact of said act would be huge if the victim is unwilling to obey.
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Ah I see, so Sanji as sexually harassed and no one made a new thread about it. The poor guy gets overlooked once again.
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I pointed out basic important aspects of portrayal
I used numbers as they were marks in school. 0=terrible, 1-bad, 2-quite bad, 3 average, 4-quite good, 5-really good, 6-exceptional.
I gave short comment for each aspects, explaining why I gave such a mark
Thanks for explaining it to me m8. It enlighten me big time.
Ah I see, so Sanji as sexually harassed and no one made a new thread about it. The poor guy gets overlooked once again.
I know. The poor guy doesnĀ“t seem to get enough love. If he was a girl in a land with lady transvestites trying to put her in a manswear tuxido I wonder how the fandom would react. Actually this idea amuses me, mainly because I havenĀ“t seen it happen on a movie or read it in a book.
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Ugh did we have to include okamas/newkamas? Really? Did we have to forget Mr. 2 who is an okama, that is likely to be the one of the best friends Strawhats have? Or the newkamas' struggle to help Luffy in the war? Inazuma and the other candies are not even bad looking.
Honestly the terrifying ones are just there to make the terror for Sanji much more real. If they are handsome/beautiful, and not forcible ones would they have the same effect? Ivankov's speech about gender is enough for me.
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No matter how many definitions and sub-categories "rape" may have, the first thing you think about is forced sexual intercourse with someone, and that isn't the case with the Newkamas. But anyway, I just thought I missed something because Sonic Youth said something similar a while ago.
Ivankov was particularly strong in emphasizing that people are people and being one gender or the other is irrelevant.
And I think that's why they tried to put him in a dress. Sanji is a wacko, he is the greatest insult to anything they believe in ("I'm not born to be friends with the ladies, raw raw!"). Turning him into a maiden seems to be the way to cure his intolerance. Hell, he can be glad that Ivankov didn't outright turn him into a woman like this one level 5,5 prisoner. He didn't even force him to battle the 99 Kenpo masters, Sanji accepted the challenge (and with that, the conditions).
I really don't see how people can see Monsters in them, even if that maneating panel was kinda gross (but hey, Luffy did exactly the same thing).
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http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/513w2lYzLrL.BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01.jpg
take a look, you could use themI call it like I see it. Thanks for playing.
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And I think that's why they tried to put him in a dress. Sanji is a wacko, he is the greatest insult to anything they believe in ("I'm not born to be friends with the ladies, raw raw!").
I really don't see how people can see Monsters in them, even if that maneating panel was kinda gross (but hey, Luffy did exactly the same thing).I believe that the key word is tolerance. Sanji is an extremist in his beliefs while the newkamas are somewhat on the other side of the spectrum. Needless to say that this spectrum isnĀ“t lineal but more like a surface. An analogy that comes to mind in regards to sanji vs okamas would be mixing water with oil. You can whisk it all you want but they are not miscible.
Another curiosity now that we are speaking about how woman are treated in OP has to do with oda depicting more man as transvestite than women; which in all honestly IĀ“m not sure if its true. Just wanted to bring the topic for discussions sake. I mean transgenderism seem to be a conflicting point when speaking of sexism because the physique of the transvestite is from one team but the phyque is from the other. Nonetheless, they often end up being viewed as a third party. which is obviously more derogatory and sexist than the man vs woman. So what do you think about it?
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.gif of Grandpa Abe Simpson walking out the door that I posted earlier, forgive me!
Another curiosity now that we are speaking about how woman are treated in OP has to do with oda depicting more man as transvestite than women; which in all honestly IĀ“m not sure if its true. Just wanted to bring the topic for discussions sake. I mean transgenderism seem to be a conflicting point when speaking of sexism because the physique of the transvestite is from one team but the phyque is from the other. Nonetheless, they often end up being viewed as a third party. which is obviously more derogatory and sexist than the man vs woman. So what do you think about it?
Given that most cultures/societies started out as patriarchies (many still are), crossdressing in literature plays a very different role for men and women. Women who crossdress do it to achieve something that they would not be able to otherwise. Even if "caught," the idea is that by emulating a man, they were at least trying to embody the positive perceived traits of masculinity; bravery, fortitude, reliability, etc. And isn't that natural? Who wouldn't want to be all those things? Disney's Mulan is a quick and easy example.
When men crossdress, it's not because they're trying to achieve rights that they didn't have before. Rather, it's because of a perversion. But more important than the perversion is the fact that they are actively stripping themselves of all those positive traits in order to become something lesser- that is, a woman. It's seen as unnatural, and almost always played up as something comic. Such characters are rarely taken seriously as people.
This isn't me spouting radical, man-hating rhetoric (or me actually believing that nonsense about perversion); this is abbreviated from Feminism 101. Well-documented and understood.How does this apply to One Piece? On the one hand, we've got some "strong" crossdressing male characters. Bon Clay is a good person and a loyal friend, although his "perversion" rarely goes beyond a bit of makeup. He's not overly sexualized or obnoxious, and nothing about hisā¦ duality makes him any weaker or lesser. That's great. WB Commander Izou is just a normal badass with pistols... who wears lipstick and has a feminine hairstyle.
I also like the handling of the level 5.5 newkamas. Most of them are just wearing wacky outfits and are simply very bohemian about gender identity. Man, woman, who cares!? Sure, they love show tunes, but who doesn't? They even fight in the war.Then we have the newkamas of Kamabakka Kingdom. Monstrous, grotesque, extremely masculine in their features (stubble and square jaws), but with freakish voices and rapacious natures. Of course they didn't "actually" try to rape Sanji. This is a comic for children. But Oda could not have come any closer to that implication if he had tried. They chase after Sanji relentlessly, trying to physically turn him into one of them. For a short while, they succeed (in the cover story) by putting him into a dress. Theirs is a lifestyle that they're trying to spread, almost virally, to any unlucky sod that lands on their island, whether that person likes it or not. This is so incredibly offensive that it borders on ironic (like, "Ha ha, wow. Well there's no way Oda ACTUALLY believes ___ people are like this, so whatever! It's just funny!") and is easily overlooked. The marine-eater was the cherry on top, painting these people as nearly literal monsters. I'm personally not ok with it (I don't see how it's different than blackface in minstrel shows), but I'll state the same conclusion that I arrived at in the 687 thread: Japan (and, yes, other countries too...) are way behind the times with these issues, and we have to take that into account when judging Oda's writing. Being gay or a crossdresser or a gender confused person in Japanese society is not nearly as "easy" as in other more progressive countries, and the public's stereotypical image of such men that deviate from the norm often includes something like that of the OP okamas or Hard Gay. Gay men, sadly, often marry women and have completely loveless marriages (complete with kids), just to keep cover, because they feel they have to. At the very least, people hide such things from their workplaces at all costs. That is the reality that we have to understand when looking at Oda's decisions.
One more interesting thing to note about how the 5.5 newkamas and the Kamabakka newkamas are so different. We've got people of both genders in 5.5, and they're constantly swapping thanks to Ivankov. Everything is very fluid, mixed, and easy-going. No one is attacking anyone else or trying to impose a lifestyle. The message is "acceptance." Kamabakka is a different story. The only residents seem to be super masculine men parading around in dresses. There are no "real" women, and Ivankov doesn't even use his hormones to change them into women. It's all very rigid and one-sided, and they aggressively try to "turn" outsiders into one of them. There is no broad mindset of acceptance. The difference is stark and puzzling.
As far as women crossdressing as men in OP...? There was a little girl in movie 4, I think, who, iirc, wasn't even crossdressing for any particular reason. It was an accident. She just had a naturally boyish voice. Not really that interesting.
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^^ Nice post. I kind of agree with you with this one.
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I agree with shinpanman (I haven't seen you post in ages! Good to see you), that arguing One Piece isn't sexist in any way is just being in denial. All you need to do is look at the DF powers of Hancock, Tsuru, and even Kalifa. I made a joke once that Big Mom will power her crew up with DF powered breast milk.
It's also not really all that bad beyond a few glaring issues, especially considering the country of origin. A lot of people point to Koshiro's comments to Kuina, and also to Tashigi's comments to support sexism complaints, and that's just not right to me. Those comments are intentionally designed to MAKE sexism an issue. It's not some accident, but rather it's part of a larger plan to deal with the topic. I can't believe Oda intentionally makes a big deal out of something like this without having a plan for redemption/resolution in some form or another. If anything, he's done a very good job in this regard. This conflict has some people on this forum incredibly worked up, which is what conflict is supposed to do. But the overall package can't really be judged without also knowing the resolution.
Also, what Koshiro said may make him something of a jackass, but it doesn't make him wrong. It may be harsh, but it's also grounded in reality. I mean, let me know the next time a women's world record in a track and field event is better than the men's. The argument that physical strength doesn't really matter at the top also doesn't fly for me, because that would ruin Koshiro's credibility. Sure there's a lot more to it, but it will always play a part. However, again, in the end, it doesn't make sense to bring it up and make a big deal out of it to begin with unless there's a plan to address it later. Until that plan becomes apparent, I will reserve judgement.
In conclusion, OP still has its sexist aspects (cough Hancock), but there's not yet enough information about the Koshiro/Kuina/Tashigi side of it to stress out over yet.