On a side note if those present at the election represent the current great houses in westeros they can't have much going for 'em right now. Tarley used to run under Tyrells no? Iron borne lady represents those guys who hates everybody. Gendry i suppose hold what's left of the storm islands thingies. Brienne's house i just assumed was rather insignificant but maybe i'm mistaken. Davos has nothing. Tully is like the last guy in his whole family in a devestated region. I guess the Arryn Royce combo still has it's shit in order tho. And the Starks just bailed on the whole thing, even if their shit also is wrecked
Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...
Game of Thrones (tv show thread)
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Ujum, Tyrells are extint (even if that were, the Hightowers, lords of the citadel, where the maesters are and the church was before kings landing, would have made the move to take over the reach), Riverlands are a blazed crater, Dorne did dorne things and stayed mostly outside, the Stormlands ceased to exist since Stanis went north, Briene's lands are there, Davos has like 4 islands, only one with green stuff in it, and Littlefinger's plans hinged on the Vale staying nice and strong to sweep in whenever he deemed oportune.
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I can't believe Bran got away with pitting his two biggest contenders to the throne against each other by making up some bs story about a secret wedding. All hail Bran the Broken (even though that's an awful title)
Sansa got what she deserved, an independent North. Yara and the Ironborn, eat your heart out.
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Welp, all in all about S8: I would not have thought, before the season started, that the writers and showruiners could screw it up as badly as they did, but, in fact, they subverted my expectations! Bravo, guys! :ninja: This made me laugh and sums it up quite well in a little over a minute:
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lol she went from someone who was moderately brutal but with good intentions to the most evil person in history for no reason, how does that make sense?
like I said, putting aside how rushed the show was and the fact that the showrunners didn't know how to pace anything without Martin.
i read the books and haven't really watched the show in years. So….
but it was super duper obvious in the books and not a surprise in the least that the crazy lady that kept burning down places that pissed her off, was in it only for her own selfishness, would keep burning down places that pissed her off.
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Well that was awful.
I had the same feeling watching this finale as I did reading Harry Potter and the Cursed Child
They both came across as terrible fanfiction without an ounce of genuine creativity or respect for the characters
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So what ever happend to that thing where the dothraki need to avenge the death of their khal? I mean the unsullied bitching out on killing Jon aside it suprises me more that the warrior culture people were willing to negotiate on that point
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The Dotraki were relegated as background warriros because they didn't have a representative like the unsulied or even the Mereen people. Compare how Dorne, the Riverlands and the Reach went silent last season, vs how the stormlands practically dissapeared from the map after the shadow baby.
I doubt the Dotraki are as chill as the Unsulied with going to retirement into the death by venomous butterfly island.
Speaking of the riverlands, did they stay in the not7 kingdoms or went with the north as Robb's original rebelion promissed?
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They just rushed it so bad. Could have gone for one more season.
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Yeah i guess it's no more than that. Just seems silly that Jon could walk free from the wrath of the fanatics who served Dany based on the threat of however many northmen they could rally at this stage. Buuut the scale of who has how many men at any given time swing like a pendelum at any given interaction. One time Dany has like a cavalry, the other she leads the unified forces of the third reich. Maybe Sansa bussed in the here unto unknown reserves to the reserve reserve. For a sparsely populated area with like five wars in a generation they sure seem good at scrunging up men
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i read the books and haven't really watched the show in years. So….
okay? we're talking about the show not the books.
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okay? we're talking about the show not the books.
The shows are following the book outline. they're going to get to the same point with the same character who did all the same things up until about season 5.
within those first 5 seasons all the groundwork was absolutely already there for her to be a vindictive petty woman who didn't care about her people who burned countries to the ground for little reason. that was all there.
The fact that the show missed the landing and didn't properly build to the obvious natural conclusion properly is on the show. But i knew a decade ago she'd be one of the badguys in the end. I never understood why people thought she was legitimate contender or that she deserved the throne. Having a character arc or being sympathetic isn't the same thing as being a goodguy.
Similarly, jaimie and cersei were likely to always die, if not together, then one immediately after the other, while Tyrion, Brienne and the Stark kids were going to be one of the ones that made out well in the end.
(For all that the series touts its "anyone can die at anytime" attitude, the actual main POV characters didn't die all that much aside from Ned in the first book and Quentyn Martell. lots and lots of fakeout deaths and cliffhangers, but little actual main character death. And no, Robb doesn't count, in the books he wasn't a POV character. Even Catelyn is still alive in the books.)
Martin might subvert those things now that the show has done its ending if he ever actually finishes the last two books, and go for full downer ending, but those were always pretty clear story paths, no matter how the tv show mangled it.
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And also, a hive mind/psychic gels well with GRRM previous sci fi works. But then again, that dude in the chair, is he Bran? Bloodraven? The children of the forest? All of the above?
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The shows are following the book outline. they're going to get to the same point with the same character who did all the same things up until about season 5.
within those first 5 seasons all the groundwork was absolutely already there for her to be a vindictive petty woman who didn't care about her people who burned countries to the ground for little reason. that was all there.
The fact that the show missed the landing and didn't properly build to the obvious natural conclusion properly is on the show. But i knew a decade ago she'd be one of the badguys in the end. I never understood why people thought she was legitimate contender or that she deserved the throne. Having a character arc or being sympathetic isn't the same thing as being a goodguy.
Similarly, jaimie and cersei were likely to always die, if not together, then one immediately after the other, while Tyrion, Brienne and the Stark kids were going to be one of the ones that made out well in the end.
(For all that the series touts its "anyone can die at anytime" attitude, the actual main POV characters didn't die all that much aside from Ned in the first book and Quentyn Martell. lots and lots of fakeout deaths and cliffhangers, but little actual main character death. And no, Robb doesn't count, in the books he wasn't a POV character. Even Catelyn is still alive in the books.)
Martin might subvert those things now that the show has done its ending if he ever actually finishes the last two books, and go for full downer ending, but those were always pretty clear story paths, no matter how the tv show mangled it.
1-again, i'm only talking about the show it doesn't matter what's going to happen in the books what matters is that the show as you said "missed the landing" and "mangled it".
2-can you tell me about this groundwork because i don't see it. the only clearly morally black thing she did that i can remember is killing the witch in season one witch is no worse than jon killing olly and it had a cause.
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Last shot is Jon going off into the woods to meet an old friend.
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(For all that the series touts its "anyone can die at anytime" attitude, the actual main POV characters didn't die all that much aside from Ned in the first book and Quentyn Martell. lots and lots of fakeout deaths and cliffhangers, but little actual main character death. And no, Robb doesn't count, in the books he wasn't a POV character. Even Catelyn is still alive in the books.)
Apart from them and Arys Oakheart, all the other deaths were prologues and epilogues if I recall well. Even Oakheart had just one POV chapter.
Been way too long since I read it all.
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Isn't it basicly a requirement after any big twist to have people go - oh i saw it coming all along. But i mean hats off to anyone who can scrounge up an old post where they foresaw the Hitler turn of Dany or the optional side story nature of the whitewalkers. I sure couldn't tell that was coming back in like season 4, but i'm also a well-known dum-dum
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Apart from them and Arys Oakheart, all the other deaths were prologues and epilogues if I recall well. Even Oakheart had just one POV chapter.
Been way too long since I read it all.
Had to google who Ary's Oakheart is.
Wow, Martin really added a ton load of new POV characters and plot lines in the new books -_-.
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Yeah Dany was super obviously going to be an evil queen that would make Cersei look tame.
A strong, smart, and resourceful woman who we saw pull herself up by her bootstraps, starting out as pawn and having a transformation into a queen. She was sold into slavery, found power in that role, broke free, and then gained power and inspired love and admiration from her followers because she shows concern for them and for innocents. People freely choose to follow her.
A queen who happens to spend her time on the other side of the sea freeing enslaved peoples, although nobody asked her to do that so I guess she should have just been minding her business and left it alone. Trying to find the best path forward by punishing those who did evil deeds with capital punishment, but she used fire instead of a rope or beheading um fire is the tool of crazy people.
I mean, Idk what's in the books because I haven't read them but when people act like the early seasons set up Dany to be evil I just have to laugh. There is a reason why people were naming their freaking kids after this woman. Like it might have been foreseeable if this was a case of "these westeros people don't actually need to be saved but she can't see that because she has too much of a savior complex" or something in that vein, but no, she was just straight up evil.
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Isn't it basicly a requirement after any big twist to have people go - oh i saw it coming all along. But i mean hats off to anyone who can scrounge up an old post where they foresaw the Hitler turn of Dany or the optional side story nature of the whitewalkers. I sure couldn't tell that was coming back in like season 4, but i'm also a well-known dum-dum
I did, but I'm trying to remember what I was calling her or her dragons.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Who knows how I write "Mesiah complex". But "If I look back I am lost" might prove successful.
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I did, but I'm trying to remember what I was calling her or her dragons.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Who knows how I write "Mesiah complex". But "If I look back I am lost" might prove successful.
Good call on that one then.
How early on did you guess it then? 2014? 2013?
I honestly forget which years the early seasons came out
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Why does Bran ask for a new master of whispers?
He himself created basically a surveilance state, where he can see everything he wants in the kingdom.
Although him literally doing nothing during the council meeting outside of telling them he's gonna go smoke some we…I mean look for the dragon, probably means he will do jack shit I guess.
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Good call on that one then.
How early on did you guess it then? 2014? 2013?
I honestly forget which years the early seasons came out
Just checked, just found entitlement and worry, on myself, not "She'll burn kings landing". 2016.
The usual of "lizards and fire resistance aren't leadership qualities" and "the slaver cities were left of worse, if that's possible".
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Whatever happened to the Valonqar and the Prince that was promised.
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Game of Thrones is a series about catching you off guard with its brutality, and subverting old fantasy tropes, but also the "Woman goes craaaaaaazy with power cliche" is the endgame and is super foreshadowed all along
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People also shouldn't be so down on the atrocious handling of Sanjis heritage, it was speculated that he was a prince for a really really long time after all
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Why does Bran ask for a new master of whispers?
He himself created basically a surveilance state, where he can see everything he wants in the kingdom.
I thought he only could see the past?
Might help to have someone give him a heads up from time to time.
Just checked, just found entitlement and worry, on myself, not "She'll burn kings landing". 2016.
The usual of "lizards and fire resistance aren't leadership qualities" and "the slaver cities were left of worse, if that's possible".
Well that's still like season 6ish. Not quite Robby who knew a genocide was coming all along, but an inkling sure is better than me who didn't consider inherited madness to be a worthwhile plot to pursue until they pushed it up into my face.
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The shows are following the book outline. they're going to get to the same point with the same character who did all the same things up until about season 5.
within those first 5 seasons all the groundwork was absolutely already there for her to be a vindictive petty woman who didn't care about her people who burned countries to the ground for little reason. that was all there.
The fact that the show missed the landing and didn't properly build to the obvious natural conclusion properly is on the show. But i knew a decade ago she'd be one of the badguys in the end. I never understood why people thought she was legitimate contender or that she deserved the throne. Having a character arc or being sympathetic isn't the same thing as being a goodguy.
Similarly, jaimie and cersei were likely to always die, if not together, then one immediately after the other, while Tyrion, Brienne and the Stark kids were going to be one of the ones that made out well in the end.
(For all that the series touts its "anyone can die at anytime" attitude, the actual main POV characters didn't die all that much aside from Ned in the first book and Quentyn Martell. lots and lots of fakeout deaths and cliffhangers, but little actual main character death. And no, Robb doesn't count, in the books he wasn't a POV character. Even Catelyn is still alive in the books.)
Martin might subvert those things now that the show has done its ending if he ever actually finishes the last two books, and go for full downer ending, but those were always pretty clear story paths, no matter how the tv show mangled it.
I don't read the books. The show had her like being a protector and destroying evil. As far as th show is concerned her belief in liberating innocent was a genuine thing. A thing that her advisor just had to work around because she didn't want to compromise on that. MAybe in the book it is a pretense and it will be perfect but in the show it didn't make sense for the character. It's something the show wanted to do despite the character not being a plce where she would do so.
It's like Punisher shotting a regular school of children. There's a way to get there but you have to built the character to this place not just have it happen.
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I thought he only could see the past?
Tyrion: Will you take up the mantle of king?
Bran: Why do you think I came here, implying he knew everything.And he obviously can see everything in the present through warging etc, not only the past. Warg into a rat and spy on everyone you need spying upon.
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Whatever happened to the Valonqar and the Prince that was promised.
Valonquar was never in the show (the prophecy was only about Cersei's three children dying), and the Prince that was Promised was maybe mentioned three times max, mostly concerning Stannis, so the average show viewer wouldn't even know what that is about.
In essence, those are just two of the many things that are left for George to properly conclude.
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Yeah Dany was super obviously going to be an evil queen that would make Cersei look tame.
A strong, smart, and resourceful woman who we saw pull herself up by her bootstraps, starting out as pawn and having a transformation into a queen. She was sold into slavery, found power in that role, broke free, and then gained power and inspired love and admiration from her followers because she shows concern for them and for innocents. People freely choose to follow her.
Being sympathetic and having a character arc is NOT the same thing as being a hero or a good person.
People followed her because she was "freeing the slaves" which is good PR when you're building an army. And because she had dragons. but she was consistently and regularly an AWFUL leader.
She didn't give a shit about her people aside from conscripting them into her army, didn't listen to her advisors, it was regularly said she was doing everything for her own vanity and personal glory, she constantly burned places to ground, threatened for two years against her advisors that she was going to burn King's landing, and basically every single place she went ended worse off than it was before she got there. THOSE ARE NOT GOOD THINGS.
No, that doesn't equate to "going to turn batshit insane", that part is the failure on the show to build up to properly. I'm not claiming I always knew it would go exactly like THAT, because that was handled badly.
But it DOES equate to "misguided, selfish, bad leader, and going to go terribly wrong when she finally gets there." She didn't have to turn into insane person to get to the exact same result of razing the kingdom to the ground and being an awful leader. With her in charge things were obviously going to go bad for one reason or another, just like they did with literally every single other place she conquered. Nothing in her history showed that she would be a decent leader or that she wouldn't wreck whatever she conquered. The exact path to her final outcome wasn't clear, but her overall ending was.
Aside from all that, her narrative was isolated. She was the only one on her continent, and didn't interact with anyone else in the cast for the first five seasons/books. You can skip her parts of the story entirely until she shows up and the narrative is completely unchanged for 95% of the series.
'The descendant of the mad king is coming back from hiding with an army and dragons to conquer everyone" is NOT a hero setup, that's an impending threat. sure, if the series had followed her narrative and only hers, she'd be the hero in a standard series. But she was one protagonist among 25, and the only one not connected to anything.And, SHE WAS THE INVADING FORCE WITH DRAGONS. THAT SHE COULDN'T CONTROL.
Cersei was a POV protagonist too and no one thought she was the rightful winner or someone to actually root for.
Especially when you have like five Stark POV characters and three Lannisters and a whole mess of people connected to them. That's not a decision any writer or writing team makes. If she'd made it to shore by book/season 2, and had a whole mess of adventures where she met Jaimie and Bran and Stannis along the way, or she didn't have the dragons, that'd be different. But she was always clearly going to be an obstacle, not an actual contender.
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Being sympathetic and having a character arc is NOT the same thing as being a hero or a good person.
That's a fair point. I can agree with that. While I don't think the series made it clear that her concern for the women the Dothraki were raping was fake, or that her desire to stamp out slavery was selfish, maybe that's just because I associated her actions more in line with the Starks than with the Lannisters at the time. She was furious when the slavers were massacring children to try to send her a point. But that was just a show for her followers? She acted like a good person and I don't think it was shown very well that it wasn't genuine.
And while I agree that she possibly left the places she conquered in greater disarray than how she found, although ending a system like slavery is not simple, I thought the point was going to be that simply conquering wasn't actually enough to "break the wheel". So she might not be fit for the throne if she couldn't figure out how to to rule properly. Hence the excitement when she teams up with Tyrion because he was equipped to handle the stuff she wasn't good at. But then all his advice stunk lol
'The descendant of the mad king is coming back from hiding with an army and dragons to conquer everyone" is NOT a hero setup, that's an impending threat. sure, if the series had followed her narrative and only hers, she'd be the hero in a standard series. But she was one protagonist among 25, and the only one not connected to anything.And, SHE WAS THE INVADING FORCE WITH DRAGONS. THAT SHE COULDN'T CONTROL.
This, however, I definitely disagree with. In a show that was built on subverting expectations and realism, the POV that was actually supposed to be correct was Robert Baratheon when he was talking about killing her in season 1. Yuck. That was supposed to be surface level analysis that we as viewers knew to be wrong because we spent so much time with her. Someone has to rule, so why not the woman whose birthright to rule was stolen from her? Who else were we supposed to be cheering on to take the crown?
The point isn't that she needed to be the good guy at the end, but that she wasn't evil. Because I don't feel that was set up and there is a lot of wiggle room between those two points. Like, how many innocent people did she actually kill before she left for Westeros?
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Like, how many innocent people did she actually kill before she left for Westeros?
How many advisors did she have killed? how many people put to the dragon? how many cities did she burn to the ground prior to coming to mainland?
Season five when she allowed her dragons to eat a man she didn't know was innocent or guilty just because she was pissed. Those are not the actions of a just ruler.
She killed a LOT of people.
n a show that was built on subverting expectations and realism
i hate that people keep going to that. it subverted expectations in that several of the leads were unconventional. A broken boy, a dwarf, an ugly mannish lady, a complete asshole that kills children. unconventional in that the guy you thought was the main character died in the first book, and there were violence and sex things happening on the page instead of off camera. it was more grounded and had actual consequences for things fantasy usually glosses over, and no magic maguffins to vanquish the singular dark one. Based on a history of real wars between nobles than a single fantasy quest.
But after he killed Ned, his big trick was on the table, and once you know that's his approach, its less surprising when it happens again. The hows and whens can and are shocking, certainly, but that he's willing to suddenly take characters out is now in the cards. Except he doesn't actually do that too much. it's was basically that 'no one ever gets what they want, ever, and if it looks like they're about to have anything nice, it's going to be stolen from them.' Oh, Arya is about to be reunited with her brother right before the Red Wedding? Well something happens to keep her from getting there! oh, Jon has taken full command of the Night's Watch and doing everything right? time for his people to betray him.
And Martin used the same trick over and over and over and over again. So do series like Berserk. it's a craptastic world and the easy thing to do is to show people suffering and put in a random monster raping someone or some boobs or a man getting flayed alive or something getting a part violently chopped off, and that the world sucks, and that has shock value and sets a tone, absolutely.
He's a fantastic writer, far greater than i will ever be. but his subversion is almost entirely of the "everything goes bad because this is a grimdark world" and not 'defying how basic storytelling 101 works.'
if it was really all about defying all expectations every one of the Starks would have been dead by book 2, Dany's brother would have killed her and taken over, dwarf Tyrion going into a real battle would have died horribly, and every lead that died like Brienne and Jon would have stayed dead, so that by season 5 the main cast looked nothing like the cast of season 1.. Instead, we got focus characters and they mostly survive despite all the odds to the end. The broken boy makes his way to the magic crow. The dwarf looking to be awesome gets to be awesome. The dragon lady looking for revenge gets vengeance.
But that's not the kind of subversion Martin was doing. Actual Main characters largely got plot armor no matter how bad their hardships. Their eventual end path was loosely outlined early on and they followed their course through all their misadventures. And secondary characters died by the dozen. But the leads? follow traditional narrative rules, no real subversion beyond how crappy things become for them along the way. Even someone like Arya who seems to have gone on a wild impossible to predict pathstarted her narrative with "i want to use the stabby end of the sword on people." Could you have predicted she'd become a facechanging master assassin from that? Of course not. But you could guess she'd be the fighter that ended up killing people in someway, that would get good with a sword, compared to delicate Sansa.
Most of their narrative paths were set fairly early on and didn't really stray from that. That's a lot HARDER to tell on the show certainly who is what because they don't get focused POV chapters with their names at the top, so you don't know Robb isn't a main character while Cat is, but its a clear distinction.
it's the same thing people throw at Oda all the time. 'anything can happen in one Piece because its so random!" except thats not the case, the world works on structure and internal consistency, and the author is good about laying groundwork and worldbuilding so that its all cohesive. We can't predict what will happen in One Piece next week, because that's the creative adventure part, but we CAN look at the pieces on the board and say what will happen in a year, as long as the author is playing fair.
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True Robert B was spot on in his assesment that a Targy child needs to be killed before their devil gene has the time to mature and activate their bloodline limit. Ned was as always waaay off in his children of crazy people can turn out none crazy. Silly Ned
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Applying modern day morality on Game of Thrones makes everything unfair.
Of course she's going to seem like an evil character that was built up to be one if we are going to apply that logic.
There's no way the show did her character justice no matter what.
If we're going to talk about the books or how seasons 1-5 built her up as an inevitable villain then I have to disagree wholeheartedly.Rather, it makes a lot more sense if the intention was that her entire arc was going to end up as a Shakespereques tragedy with clues litter here and there.
Like Walter White in Breaking Bad. One might argue that you feel empathy for him, that he is the anti-hero and his ending is inevitable. There is no way he would get away knowingly with the suffering he has caused.But Danny is a terrible comparison to Walter White because she was never portrayed as an anti-hero in the first place.
We can pull out pages or scenes and argue endlessly on subtle hints that she was in fact not the good savior we all thought she was, but we can also do the same for the rest of the cast.
Once you know the end of an arc, a bunch of stuff when revisited seems like seeds that were planted even though that might not be the author's intention.Anyone can use an ending point for a character and then go back and justify their actions, twisting the narrative to fit "oh that's how it was all along".
That's the reason why the people defending her turning is annoying as hell.
Oh yeah she freed an entire city from slavery, had more resilience than half the characters in the show, convinced a bunch of murderous warriors that listen to no one to follow her, outwitted rather intelligent people, turned a traitor and the most intelligent guy in the series into following her BUT DID U SEE THAT TIME SHE BURNED THOSE PEOPLE THAT DESERVES IT? TOTALLY EVIL! OR THAT HER DRAGONS ARE REPRESENTATION OF POWER CORRUPTS EVERYONE!!! but let's not care about the many other times she held her hand or saved the world from being frozen over bECAUSE DRAGON BLOOD DESTINY LEGACY AMIRIGHT.
Sure, she's not white but she's not black either.
Her, like most of the cast of GoT is grey. Which is suppose to represent the morally ambiguous aspect of the series.
It's the same for the books or seasons 1-5, Danny is never supposed to be the fucking big bad.
That is why burning the entire king's landing makes zero sense. I'm not even referring to her character arc, I'm referring to the entire overarching theme of the series itself.
If you think this is a good vs bad show, then we're completely on the wrong topic.Just because she's flawed doesn't mean she will not be a good ruler.
Unless we're going to dismiss Jorah, Barristan and Tyrion as idiots then I guess the conversation ends here.
She's flawed but she has been portrayed as having a vision that is beyond the people of her time, her "break the wheel" was something that could reasonably turn the world into greater good.
In today's context, absolute power needs to be tamed and controlled as soon as possible.
In the world of thrones, absolute power can end all wars and pave a better world but only if used wisely.
Too much power for one person absolutely destroys which is why she needed the ice part of the song, Jon Snow.
The narrative allows the possibility for her to turn batshit evil…true but it's distasteful and feels too much like a good vs evil story. -
Hey, remember the scene where she locked up her own dragons (her children) for supposedly burning a single child? Here you go if you need a refresher on that.
And yet she burns and kills practically thousands of innocent people just…..because she felt like it because bitch be crazy.
Quality characterization, this is not.
Even if Martin always intended for her to be the mad queen, there is no way he had this bullshit simple and quick turn that would make even a Saturday morning cartoon blush from embarrassment. You don't built up a character and showcase how most people want her to rule the Kingdoms and then just quickly make her a literal Hitler and just kill her off.
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It doesn't have to make sense cause she's crazy.
And why is she crazy? Cursed gene pool of doooom.
Solid writing choices all around
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Putting aside all of the problems with ep 6 caused by rushing the story, there's one question that really bothers me about the ending:
Why Bran?What miracle did Bran perform that convinced everyone to side with him?
Why do the southerners even believe that he has powers? (that includes Tyrion)The ending just makes no sense whatsoever.
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Dany's heel turn was rushed and poorly executed, I don't think anyone can argue against that
The thing that really annoyed me was the trial/council scene though
So many things that made no sense within the GoT universe
After Robert died we ended up with the war of five kings, with all these different motivations and greedy lords vying for power and taking advantage of the power vacuum
This time we have even more chaos with the land decimated from the battle at winterfell and the second sack of kings landing alone
All this chaos leads to…nothing
Everyone just agrees with little argument that this weird kid from the north who claims he can see everything should rule over all 7 kingdoms
Oh no, the 6 kingdoms because the North will never bow to...it's actual successor, the oldest living son of Eddard Stark
The Iron Islands and Dorne, 2 regions that are infamous for want of independence say nothing to this either, seemingly fine with another state being allowed to leave
This is all wrapped up neatly in around 10 minutes
Then we have a council scene where we have an maester who isn't actually a maester and is still sworn to the nights watch
A kingsguard(?) who is still sworn to Sansa Stark
A lowborn mercenary is now master of coin and lord paramount of the reach with seemingly no opposition from the lords of that region
So much of it unravels at the slightest touch that it's genuinely infuriating
For a show that was so great because of it's intricate plotlines and atmosphere of every action having consequences they really couldn't have done a worse ending
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Especially when he literally told Tyrion that he didn't want to become the king.
But then at the end he says that he was there because he knew that he would become the king? What the actual fuck?
What was the purpose of talking about Jon Snow's true heritage and have Varys be killed over it when it didn't even matter at the end.
It felt like Dumb & Dumber just wanted to move on to Star Wars and basically spinned the wheel to randomly assign "conclusions" to the characters without even thinking about whether it makes sense or not.
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The Sam thing doesn't seem that odd to me.
Surely it must be within the kings power to pardon him.
And bully his way into the corrupt maester system
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That's…..actually quite depressing.
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I would've liked a scene of Jon being like, "Hey, I ain't a bastard! HOORAY!!!"
I wonder if book Rickon will die. He's so much younger there.
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To be fair, those people signed on to adapt the story not to write his ending. They tried wheel spinning to delay but probably didn't think GRRM would just stop in his tracks. I don't think they did a great job getting there but I think they ended with a job they didn't sign for.
I dare say they are all happy. Even Jon that would have hated to rule and gets to chill in the "real" north.
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To be fair, those people signed on to adapt the story not to write his ending. They tried wheel spinning to delay but probably didn't think GRRM would just stop in his tracks. I don't think they did a great job getting there but I think they ended with a job they didn't sign for.
Hire new writers/showrunners if you are tired of the project and move on to star wars and let the new people do more episodes/seasons.
But their hubris probably didn't let them so they rather rush it into the ground instead.
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Hire new writers/showrunners if you are tired of the project and move on to star wars and let the new people do more episodes/seasons.
But their hubris probably didn't let them so they rather rush it into the ground instead.
Pretty sure people would be annoyed at them as much if they bailed on the last 2 seasons. And that HBO probably having around the people that made it a giant success and probably read the books also.
I doubt many people consider their own work shit. They got fucked by no longer being an adaption(which they did a good job of and seemed to like doing) much more than having hubris.
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Its one of those George Lucas things. You rise to fame on a collaborative effort where your input is tempered by the hands of others and your thing is a success and suddenly people start thinking this success is your doing. Cue the realization that this person doing things out of his framework is mediocre at best and downright bad at times due to how people dare not question the creative genius behind X, even if doing so was what made the original work great
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Its one of those George Lucas things. You rise to fame on a collaborative effort where your input is tempered by the hands of others and your thing is a success and suddenly people start thinking this success is your doing. Cue the realization that this person doing things out of his framework is mediocre at best and downright bad at times due to how people dare not question the creative genius behind X, even if doing so was what made the original work great
Except the creative genius was always GRR and they didn't push him out or throw hs ideas away. They just stopped coming because the work is not done yet.
If anything the show seemed to have shoved the books endings despite not fitting with the show.
And yes I believe the decisions don't meet what came before as expressed in the previous episode and my hatred of season 7. But I also people like to forget the 2 guys were fans wanting to adapt the books not alssholes that thought they knew better than the creator.
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Except the creative genius was always GRR and they didn't push him out or throw hs ideas away. They just stopped coming because the work is not done yet.
If anything the show seemed to have shoved the books endings despite not fitting with the show.
And yes I believe the decisions don't meet what came before as expressed in the previous episode and my hatred of season 7. But I also people like to forget the 2 guys were fans wanting to adapt the books not alssholes that thought they knew better than the creator.
Well i mean they did throw away alot of what was provided to them. To quote the man himself be said be provided them with enough material for 13 seasons, HBO pushed for atleast 10 seasons but D&D refused to go higher than 7,5 seasons because they felt they needed no more than that to finish it strong. And the only reason they could get away with that retroacticely recognized to be bullshit pitch was because the runaway success of GoT was mistakenly assumed to be due to some sort of perceived competence on the part of D&D, when what was needed was for people with input to say no you don't have the means to wrap this up this soon, this needs fleshing out, this is to abrupt. Essentially what they needed were producers, editors, script doctors and other collegues with the balls to say that the emperor is naked.
