bronn will show up next episode to get highgarden
Game of Thrones (tv show thread)
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What purpose would something like that serve?
Like i just want to hear your scenario reasoning
Some poetic capper to him failng at reedeming himself. I thought I could be better than my family but I only brought misery to the people and died as patheically as them?
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I could ask you the same question about your deduction that the Bronn scene was his last.
Well he has no plot purpose, and the people who write this show are notorious for just dumping whatever character they can't make use of so it makes sense for them to use the we have a deal see ya after the war thing to write him out. On the otherhand your Bronn will in the final episode kill Tyrion as some ironic echo to him killing his father idea seems like it needs further explaining on why you feel such a thing is due to happen.
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Yeah, after the war. The war with Cercei just ended. And like writing out Sam and Tormund, we say goodbye to Bronn next episode. (Well actually to all of them :P)
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Considering she was getting paid by cersei there is no more reason to kill Tyrion, is there?
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Yeah, after the war. The war with Cercei just ended. And like writing out Sam and Tormund, we say goodbye to Bronn next episode. (Well actually to all of them :P)
But i mean what is the scenario leading into this in your mind? Bronn never does anything without payment, cersei is dead as is Jaime so his only meal ticket is Tyrion. Outside of anyone paying more for Tyrions death he has no incentive for murder. And if so who at this stage in the story has the wallet and the grudge against Tyrion? I mean a cameo of Bronn sure, i could see it, but a subplot where in the middle of dismantling Dany we take time out for an inexplicable Bronn murders his employeer for undisclosed reasons subplot. Seems so arbitrary and out of character, not that this season has been a stranger to that kind of sudden change in character
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Your last sentence. Exactly that. People do really random things this season. And Bronn was kinda pissed at Lannisters the last time we saw him.
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[hide] [/hide]
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I really don't think it's a huge leap from Killing nobles, Soldiers, and anyone in her way, to snapping and killing anyone who crosses her path. A killer is a killer, and Dany has always enjoyed mounting her dragon and laying waste. She's never flinched at violence and has implied that she'd raze cities before being coaxed to not do it multiple times. She brings the fire and blood, and that was all she had left. She made a decision that she was going to rule this place by fear, like her brother would have, like her father did, and it is not out of character at all in my opinion. Whether she had met the people of Kings Landing at all, she had already made up her mind that they weren't going to be the adoring brown folk that would lift her up before, they weren't going to love her. Has Dany ever spared those who refused to love her? I don't even think she went mad, I just think this is who she is.
To be honest, I think people who think it was in character and those who don't will never agree and can't be convinced, but I also think that whatever the ending looks like in the books, George R. R. Martin will certainly have more people in agreement that it makes sense. I buy this turn of events, but it's not a slam dunk and I've seen numerous ways where it could have been drastically improved.
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If a killer is a killer and motives don't matter , Jon could just as well burn king's landing. But I'm sure people would question that. Same way I don't think we see a soldier in the same light as serial killer.
It's not just killing why you do it also matters. And this doesn't match why Danny kills. I would also have question Cersei killing Tommen or Joeffrey.
But I agree at this neither side is going to budge.
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Also, who is the Dornish Prince supposed to be? Since House Martell is now basically extinct in this 'verse.
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Quentin was really going for Dany, but Doran completely hates him and left him for dead from the beginning.
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It's really funny, now, to remember that when the season premiered, I wanted to watch the episode on the night that it aired so badly that I signed up for a temporary free trial of HBO just to get it…and by the time we got to this one, after reading the leaks and knowing the main points of what was going to happen in this ep, I not only dreaded watching it, but straight-up avoided it for a couple days and just finally made myself do it now. And at least 60% of the reason for that was just so that I would feel like I actually have a right to participate in the discussion in here, lulz.
But ugggggghhhhh, the character assassinations going on here, man. If there's one thing they're trying to teach us this season, it's to never doubt the writers...in terms of just how bad they can get. Tyrion's downhill slide just keeps going. Varys, the Master of Whisperers, decides to talk about treason to Jon right out in broad daylight. But then the worst two, naturally, are Daenerys and Jaime.
With Daenerys:[HIDE]Plain and simple, I cannot agree with those who try to claim this is perfectly in character for Daenerys.
Coming from someone who likes Dany: I will never try to pretend that she hasn't always had some issues. She has a sense of entitlement. She's quick-tempered, quick to anger, impulsive, and hot-blooded (so to speak…), and has made some very poor decisions, especially when that anger has flared up. And the show is trying to use that to push the idea that "This really shouldn't be that much of a surprise! She's always been like this!" But for one thing, those flaws are certainly not as bad as many other characters we've seen on this show, and for another, trying to argue that this makes sense by saying "She has these bad qualities that can lead to her going Mad Queen" ignores the many good qualities she has that cause this to be a completely nonsensical turn. It's like a "that's the truth, but not the whole truth" kind of thing that accentuates the negative and ignores the positive.
Like, for one thing, the fact that she is aware of her flaws. Ever since she found out what her father was really like, she's been determined to not turn into him. She doesn't want to be her father, she wants to free people from tyrants, she wants to "leave the world better than she found it". She has chosen people to advise her whom she knows will tell her when they believe she's making a mistake, and grown closest to people she knows will be honest with her. And sure enough, when her anger starts to boil over in a potentially highly destructive way, people like Ser Jorah, Ser Barristan, and Tyrion have tried to talk her down, and she's listened to them and come up with another plan that works better. That's another annoying thing about Tyrion's character assassination, in that it's extended to hers. Tyrion has been badly-written to give her shitty advice so that she listens to it, it fails, and eventually she stops listening.
And bringing up the times that she killed the Masters and didn't care about the fact that she hurt some who were innocent: first of all, yes she did. When she found out about Hizdahr's dad, it was really obvious that, despite wearing a "queenly mask", she was upset by realizing what she'd done. But second of all: look at the people she's actually purposely hurt in the past: those who betrayed her (which is fair), people she defeated in battle who wouldn't bend the knee to her (again, strict but fair, and not different from what her ancestors did), and slavers and oppressors. As someone who was basically sold like livestock and has seen a lot of suffering from those lower on the totem pole, she sympathizes with the downtrodden (which was emphasized in her "break the wheel" speech). Sure, she has a black-and-white view that "Commonfolk = good, those in charge of them = evil" when obviously it's more gray than that (like with Hizdahr's dad), but that's why she's the Breaker of Chains: she frees the smallfolk from the tyrants who were making their lives hell. That's something that's been consistent about her even when she's been "darker": she wants to protect innocent people, not hurt them. So if you wanted to show her going over the edge in a way that's actually somewhat believable, a way that might actually make more sense is, when she heard the bells ringing, flying Drogon straight to castle to burn Cersei, knocking down most of it in the process, and just not being concerned enough by the collateral damage that might cause with nearby citizens being killed/injured. But her ignoring Cersei and making the conscious effort to torch the civilians and their homes, going for them first instead of Cersei, the woman she actually hates who caused the death of one of her dragons and ordered the death of her best friend…yeah, no. I'm not convinced, and frankly, can't be, that that is not pure, blatant, unadulterated bullshit character assassination. It also doesn't help that the showruiners (yes, that's what I'm calling them now) and writers clearly think they've done a good job of slowly showing Dany going Mad Queen. Several times, they've used other characters as mouthpieces to express concerns about her, being like "Look, viewers! These characters are telling you that you should be worried and they're telling you why!" Problem is, much of the time that they've done this were about things that she was justified in doing and/or at least had a fair point. In fact, it's only this season that it's really felt like they've been pushing the Mad Queen angle, and even there, she's come across several times as more sympathetic and understandable than it seems like the writers meant her to. They're probably trying to paint her thing with Sansa as "both sides have a point"…except Sansa really kinda...doesn't. And hasn't felt very sympathetic at all in her petty feud with Dany. [/HIDE] With Jaime:[HIDE]I spent all of season 6 and 7 of Jaime's plotlines screaming at him to fucking dump his crazy-as-shit sister and leave her already like his book counterpart did; it was sincerely one of the biggest nails-on-a-chalkboard things for me that the show was doing. And I cheered passionately when he finally dumped her ass at the end of S7. And then the writers decide to be like "Just kidding, nope!" and undo that. Like, seriously, when Jaime has already dumped her in the books and finally gotten real character development and is trying to be better, why, D&D, are you so fucking obsessed with changing that in favor of this guy undoing his show development and instead still wanna keep banging his sister? You literally had him say something this ep (that he's never much cared about the innocents) that flies in the face of one of his most important character traits (the reason he killed Aerys).
As far as the whole thing with Brienne goes, it's like the writers basically knew how much the fans were going to despise what they were doing with him, because it's so stupid; however, instead of, I dunno, writing him a storyline that actually makes something of his development and isn't stupid, it's like they threw in him briefly leaving Cersei and hooking up with Brienne as a way to "appease" those fans, like "Well, we're deciding to go with a storyline that chucks all of Jaime's character development from the entire show out of the window for no good reason because that's what we (apparently) want to happen, logic and reason be damned, but fans may be angry about this because it makes no sense, so let's at least have Jaime hook up with Brienne somewhere in there, since so many fans love that pairing! If we make it briefly canon rather than unresolved forever, I'm sure fans will be willing to forgive us for immediately breaking them up for no good reason so he can go back to our planned storyline of loving Cersei forever no matter what. They'll forgive us because they'll be like 'At least the pairing did get to happen!'"
And for fans for whom that was the case, great! But for me, it was like…yes, I did love seeing them hook up, but that just makes him leaving her and everything he does this episode even more frustrating, because we got a taste of what things could and should be like, only for the writers to be like "Lol jk nope!" This definitely makes me empathize all the more with Stannis's fans (didn't have strong feelings about him myself, but it did feel like poor writing for his character, too). With Stannis, the showruiners openly admitted pretty much the whole time that they didn't like him, so I guess that makes what they did to him unsurprising...but, despite the fact that I've never had any particular impression that they don't like Jaime, they did it to him too. And unlike Stannis, where they ruined him but at least then killed him off in his next ep, they started ruining Jaime since S6, and it was like a slow burn where we kept holding out hope that maybe they'd fix him...but, nope. Finished ruining him, then killed him off too.
Overall, I think this about sums it up (and made me laugh): [/HIDE]
–- Update From New Post Merge ---Other thoughts: * This episode made the almost-entirety of Season 7 plus much of last episode all the more frustrating. We all knew pretty much from the beginning that Daenerys's army of 3 dragons, the Unsullied, and the Dothraki, plus the forces of the Tyrells, Sand Snake-surpers, and Yara Greyjoy should have completely curbstomped Cersei and her forces. And yet, for absolutely no good reason except for D&D wanting it to be that way and bad writing, Dany's side struggled, and they were trying to pretend that Cersei's side actually had a chance and even tried to shoehorn in completely obvious bullshit like "Dany forgot about the Iron Fleet". But now, in this episode, with one dragon and a severely depleted army, it's still a curb-stomp in Dany's favor, making the bullshit writing even more noticeable and more frustrating.
- Yes, we finally got Cleganebowl, hooray. Yay, Gregor's dead. Aww, Sandor's dead :sad:. Thing is, tho, that we got Cleganebowl when there were no stakes to it at all. Nothing but revenge. I mean, I'm glad it got to happen and Sandor got to take down his awful brother, but ultimately, in terms of the plot, it didn't even matter at all.
- Ugh at Cersei getting a better death than she deserved (i.e one that wasn't slow and painful and/or delivered in a way that felt like justice). Ties into my Jaime rant above, too.
- forgot about [Y]" memes I've been seeing about this ep have been staggering, lmao. I laughed my ass off at these two: [HIDE][/HIDE]
Well, the action was decent if one-sided (but again, that makes sense), visuals were great, and the score was excellent as always. But as others have already pointed out, the so, so much more that's wrong with this episode than right makes that an almost-non-existent comfort.
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Why is this season so short anyway? It's the biggest show in the world. It's not like it was in danger of being canceled or anything, they could have taken all the time they needed.
My sentiments exactly, if the payoff was the battle against the Night's King I could see why it wouldn't need to be so long but the angle of Cersei/Daenerys/Jon needed a solid 10-12 episodes to flesh out. With that said I've been amazed with the cinematography this season, particularly in episode 2 and the Hound/Mountain fight.
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They want to do Star Wars movies now, legacy of the show be damned.
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I still think that the last 4 seasons have been shit. Just because I was right about Dany (and that makes me happy because fuck messiah) doesn't excuse Sansa's second weding night, princess BBQ, Tyrion's "Let's win a war by not fighting it" and "Let's risk everything to get my treacherous sister to be not treacherous", Arya's plot armor, Varys and Littlefinger's demises, the cleganebowl either being a contrievance to occur or a checkbox, hasbeen rockstar euron instead of warlock euron, the citadel being a non-factor, or the lack of the last few straws on the Mad Dragon's back.
"If I look back I am lost" means "I can't ever be wrong"
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This.
This reaction from the fanbase is satisfying as hell.
Usually you get a line that is somewhat equally divided when the storytelling becomes inconsistent.
You get people who defend the writing and people who attack it, both sides with its fair share of fools.
But this
God damn is this satisfying to see the world acknowledge this bullshit for what it is.
God bless the intelligent audience.Or maybe you know, it's fucking horrendous to a kid and so what's the point anymore.
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Funny enough Anakin himself never bothered. I find it strange he just sticked to the emperor once his wife and kid died but it mostly worked for me. Dude that was obsess with losing those he loved got corrupted in hope of saving his family but lost himself. Then again I mostly remember the last movie of that trilogy.
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Obviously Danny turning Mad Queen wasn't the problem, but how it was done was, shitty and abrupt.
Here is just one small change that could have already made it a lot better.
Imagine that after the bells ring, it is Grey Worm who attacks the weaponless Lannister's in sheer rage and the unsullied and Dothraki start their rampage against women and children. Jon seeing this madness gives his Northern men the order to protect the innocent and thus go against Danny's soldiers.
She sits on the walls hearing the bells thinks it's over and now only has Cersei in the Tower on her mind, but then she sees Jon and his people attack hers and she take it as the ultimate final betrayal of Jon and that is the last straw to make her go crazy.
I still would like more buildup, but this would have been much better than what we got.
Or in her rage she could have just simply attacked the Castle where Cersei was at and killed a bunch of innocent people in doing so. She could have also gone after the remaining soldiers burning down houses and innocent bystanders as collateral damage.
It would have been in line with the way they have been building the character and would have resulted in people hating her and her allies questioning her sanity.But her taking the time to slowly go over the city, targeting civilians and burning women and children alive makes no sense.
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Or she burns the red keep but Cersei connected to the wild fire around the city and by burning the castle and the wild fire under she caused the city to explode. Of course you show there were innocent people in the red keep also.
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Or she burns the red keep but Cersei connected to the wild fire around the city and by burning the castle and the wild fire under she caused the city to explode. Of course you show there were innocent people in the red keep also.
Am I
the Khaleesicrazy or did we see Wildfire explosions while Dany was going wild? It's probably been mentioned that Cersei had it installed throughout the city and I forgot. But I found it weird that nobody acknolwedged it at all in the latest episode. -
EDIT: Forget it. I was enjoying the discussion but I am starting to get tired of reading what I have to say on this matter.
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I haven't been a fan of Dany for a long time precisely because she has the tendency to burn first and ask questions later. So her turning out to be the final villain is super satisfying. I still would like to be able to understand her thought process better. Which I think I do now, but it took some work.
I proposed Drogon getting injured, and Jon being cheered on as the trigger(s) for her decision-making. Things we've seen before, but reiterated for the sake of a cohesive story. I want to be able to follow her logic. Or she's just insane. But that's not particularly relatable.
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The backlash to the backlash is always an interesting thing.
Kind of like a shitty thing going full circle
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I guess something good came of this season after all, because I have resumed reading the books. Book 5 I mean. I've only read like, 4 chapters, and it is painfully evident how nuanced and clever a lot of characters feel. Especially Jon. I'm aware that different mediums allow for different levels of character, but I can't help but feel a little betrayed by the show. I have nothing against the actor, any of the actors, heck, some of them brought new life to characters I haven't really cared about in the books.
I'm honestly considering restarting the whole series from Book 1. It's been 2 years since I read the first four, and I guess I could use burying myself into a fantasy world amidst everything I have to take care nowadays.
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This.
This reaction from the fanbase is satisfying as hell.
Usually you get a line that is somewhat equally divided when the storytelling becomes inconsistent.
You get people who defend the writing and people who attack it, both sides with its fair share of fools.
But this
God damn is this satisfying to see the world acknowledge this bullshit for what it is.
God bless the intelligent audience.Or maybe you know, it's fucking horrendous to a kid and so what's the point anymore.
There's still a minority who liked the episode, proclaiming it as the best episode of the season (which doesn't say much). Hell I've read a post by some psychology student who used his knowledge to write a long analysis of Dany's character to prove that what happened to her made sense (as if D&D had anything of that sort in mind, those two hacks probably thought it would be cool if Dany suddenly started acting like an actual dragon herself - which is why she screamed like maniac)
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Am I
the Khaleesicrazy or did we see Wildfire explosions while Dany was going wild? It's probably been mentioned that Cersei had it installed throughout the city and I forgot. But I found it weird that nobody acknolwedged it at all in the latest episode.The mad king had secret stach of wild fire throughout the city. Cersei discovered some recently and did the church explosion. And I think the one Tyrion use was also from the mad king. Those that are exploding are probably some more of his secret stashes
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Season 7 is still the benchmark for fuck-ups in the series for me. This season has its issues, but seven was impossibly bad.
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To be fair he doesn't have an army or Dragon to do it so we can't be certain. Maybe he is craftiest of them all and manipulated Danny into doing it.
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Davos for the throne.
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So is the base of Dany's insanity supposed to be that insanity is just hereditary and that she can't help but slide into it, or is the rationale supposed to be more like the jokers all it takes is one bad day and anyone can snap idea? Personally i don't much enjoy you can't fight your fate notions but it seems to be more like what the writers are putting out there. Or what do you guys think?
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To be fair, he's essentially become a filler character since season 7.
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So is the base of Dany's insanity supposed to be that insanity is just hereditary and that she can't help but slide into it, or is the rationale supposed to be more like the jokers all it takes is one bad day and anyone can snap idea? Personally i don't much enjoy you can't fight your fate notions but it seems to be more like what the writers are putting out there. Or what do you guys think?
I'd say a mix of both. She's more prone to that type of insanity because of her lineage, but the piling on of loss and isolation made her snap.
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Hereditary insanity is as shitty as hereditary right to rule.
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So is the base of Dany's insanity supposed to be that insanity is just hereditary and that she can't help but slide into it, or is the rationale supposed to be more like the jokers all it takes is one bad day and anyone can snap idea? Personally i don't much enjoy you can't fight your fate notions but it seems to be more like what the writers are putting out there. Or what do you guys think?
Mix of both. She is predisposed to it but she could have not fallen.
Clearly she's crazy as Varys mention her family tends to be but I think she's also suppose to snap hence killing her people constantly.
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With the lack of due time for things to go at a natural pace it does come out feeling more like she was destined to be this with or without outside factors. Like i hear ya and i could see the intent, but the execution and pacing does not let me feel any attachment or sense of loss over for instance ser friendzone or her bestie, like it was a cliff notes summary where we are told how characters are supposed to think and feel rather than being shown
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Yes, like 2-4 steps off. I guess the inner narration will do the heavy lifting.
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With the lack of due time for things to go at a natural pace it does come out feeling more like she was destined to be this with or without outside factors. Like i hear ya and i could see the intent, but the execution and pacing does not let me feel any attachment or sense of loss over for instance ser friendzone or her bestie, like it was a cliff notes summary where we are told how characters are supposed to think and feel rather than being shown
I am giving you what they wanted to portrayed. They just happend to fail at it spectacuraly as far as I am concerned. And what the actual episode give me is she was crazy all along.
Now Jon just have to kill her and get the throne. Or give it to Sansa.
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So, does has some finally new genes in the pool mean Jon isn't Targaryen crazy?
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Naruto vs Sasuke is a cooler fight than next episode if there is one.
I'll love to see what Oda has to say if he ever when he's all caught up. -
Jon isn't an incest baby, but an incest grandchild, and didn't grow up with the paranoia and resentment that Dany did. Even if Catheryn made his life worse, he still was way better of than any non Lord on the seven kingdoms. Reducing it to "crazy genes" is ignoring that her life was also a storm of violence and fear, until she got the dragons, and stoped being afraid.
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Jon isn't an incest baby, but an incest grandchild, and didn't grow up with the paranoia and resentment that Dany did. Even if Catheryn made his life worse, he still was way better of than any non Lord on the seven kingdoms. Reducing it to "crazy genes" is ignoring that her life was also a storm of violence and fear, until she got the dragons, and stoped being afraid.
So what you are saying is that Jon might only be fated to kill like a fraction of the people a fully Tarygy child might have due to his diluted crazy genes. But if he and Dany banged forth another incest child that kid would have a higher burn them all percent based on the evil gene mathematics. And if the kid was bullied the burn them all genes would multiply at an alarming rate leading to an increased likeliehood of catastrophic dragon burning. The scientific field of crazy people have crazy genes is truly an interesting thing to behold
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Don't forget that Daenerys also has Woman With Power and Exotic Foreigner adding to her crazyness equation, which is inverted in Jon by his Milquetoast White Local Guy With Dong factors
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@Daz:
Don't forget that Daenerys also has Woman With Power and Exotic Foreigner adding to her crazyness equation, which is inverted in Jon by his Milquetoast White Local Guy With Dong factors
I'll take this excuse to link this video of Iwan Rheon making fun of Jon Snow. It's in Welsh but there's subtitles.
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Oh wow, that's a pretty amazingly sounding language. Kinda want to start learning it.
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Oh wow, that's a pretty amazingly sounding language. Kinda want to start learning it.
Nolly is a language geek!
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@Daz:
Don't forget that Daenerys also has Woman With Power and Exotic Foreigner adding to her crazyness equation, which is inverted in Jon by his Milquetoast White Local Guy With Dong factors
Yes i hadn't factored in the white dong.
My math clearly needs work
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I have broken my sarcasm detector so sure, she's this close to awakening the sharingan.
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Oh wow, that's a pretty amazingly sounding language. Kinda want to start learning it.
That was my exact reaction to this interview. Subsequently, I found a website, studied for a few weeks, neglected it soon after, and forgot everything again. Good luck!
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Despite all …
... I'm excited as hell to watch Sunday's episode (Monday morning for meg). It will likely be illogical local, rushed, unsatisfying, but there's nothing on TV like it.
I'm actually quite excited for the Amazon Tolkien tv-series they're developing now. And Netflix' Witcher. More so than any Game of Thrones spin-off that's being developed.