@Cyan:
Who's leading the Brotherhood, is the question you should be asking.
! Whoever it is right now must have a heart of stone to allow these atrocities to occur.
Throughout this month, we will be testing new features (like search) so you may experience some hiccups from time to time. We'll try to not be too disruptive...
Game of Thrones (tv show thread)
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@Purple:
! Whoever it is right now must have a heart of stone to allow these atrocities to occur.
So am I the only one who isn't naive about irregular military (and even regular) military behavior in civilian heavy areas during wartime?
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Purple's making a book reference.
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So am I the only one who isn't naive about irregular military (and even regular) military behavior in civilian heavy areas during wartime?
19th Century American Lem Lemoncloak: Hello nominally neutral Indians who have displayed strong loyalty to the US Government and have no overt ties to the Indians we're currently fighting. Really nice village you got there, be a shame if something happened to it…
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@Purple:
! Whoever it is right now must have a heart of stone to allow these atrocities to occur.
! Can't wait to see this asshole get their throat cut.
If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life
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I believe everyone is riled up over the fact that the brotherhood is acting outside of what GRRm initially intended for them and what was also depicted in the show earlier. They seem to be making changes that are better fit so they can more haphazardly( and lazilly write their story). Of course, unless they are going with ladystoneheart storyline then that's a different case. But I'm fairly certain even in the books they don't do with the ladystoneheart.
Also, stop putting in real life examples for something written in a book. It's a fictional story. Christ.
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I believe everyone is riled up over the fact that the brotherhood is acting outside of what GRRm initially intended for them
Which is what.
and what was also depicted in the show earlier.
Ok cool, post# 15 saying "but they're good guys! cuz they said so! So no bad! Impossible for literally anyone affiliated with them to do a bad!".
I think we've established this is a really dumb argument and bizarrely naive as heck about rl.They seem to be making changes that are better fit so they can more haphazardly( and lazilly write their story).
Go to the hill country of east central India and get captured by communist freedom fighter guerillas.
As they cut your throat tell them its bad writing.Also, stop putting in real life examples for something written in a book. It's a fictional story. Christ.
The fact that real life works this way makes your intensely stupid argument that this is implausible writing really quite clear for what it is. Which is intensely stupid.
Also of course because this is Game of Thrones where everything is some shade of gray, and works in ways that actually resemble real life and not high fantasy fiction like Lord of the Rings.
The argument here is literally "They are good guys who care about people so they wouldn't!". The fact that anyone posting some variant of this nonsense isn't being laughed out of the thread is kind of bewildering to me. -
This post is deleted!
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The Brotherhood has taken a brutal turn by this point in the books as well, and Lem Lemoncloak (the guy who threatened and killed Sandor's little commune) was one of the more bloodthirsty members even before the full shift into morally dubious partisans.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Doing horrible shit to sustain themselves does not preclude the Brotherhood from doing good things, like dealing with what's left of the Lannister occupation and making Walder Frey's life as miserable as possible.
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Which is what.
Ok cool, post# 15 saying "but they're good guys! cuz they said so! So no bad! Impossible for literally anyone affiliated with them to do a bad!".
I think we've established this is a really dumb argument and bizarrely naive as heck about rl.Go to the hill country of east central India and get captured by communist freedom fighter guerillas.
As they cut your throat tell them its bad writing.The fact that real life works this way makes your intensely stupid argument that this is implausible writing really quite clear for what it is. Which is intensely stupid.
Also of course because this is Game of Thrones where everything is some shade of gray, and works in ways that actually resemble real life and not high fantasy fiction like Lord of the Rings.
The argument here is literally "They are good guys who care about people so they wouldn't!". The fact that anyone posting some variant of this nonsense isn't being laughed out of the thread is kind of bewildering to me.I take it you haven't even read the books, which is why you have a high regard for the show? Big literature scare you buddy? So don't talk to me about grey writing because even GRRM is not as great as you think he is. You cannot draw parallels like that because while grey it's still high fantasy with dragons and time travel paradoxes? It's not a historical fiction mate. You keep drawing direct comparisons as if it's real life. The only thing intensely stupid here is your blindness to find anything D&D write as good writing .
I take it the brotherhood is one that fights the lannister in protecting the common people. It's also about as stupid as reverting back jaimes character development to the same incestous idiot that he has always been. So many characters and stuff are happening that is so different from the books and it kind of contradicts their characters; they are doing stuff that they would never do in the books.
Nobody is being laughed out of the thread because you seem to have a know it all attitude about A FICTIONAL story in somenes head. Your attitude pisses me off. I don't like know it alls as much as nobody likes idiots. And you have a know it all attitude that pisses me off.
I'm pretty most people would agree that grey area character are a good thing, but the point here is that they aren't so lazily executed whenever it suits them. Also, if you want to look at bad writing from GRRm you only have to look at Danys, ironborn, and aryas storyline. I defend the books because they are obviously better, but even GRRm has made some terrible writing. If you're going to make changes to the story that's fine with me. But not when it contradicts previous events to the story.
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Actually Earthquake, your alt account IS being laughed out of the thread. And the forum.
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"You're getting old, Clegane."
"Well, he isn't."
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I take it you haven't even read the books, which is why you have a high regard for the show?
Literally nothing about this current argument has anything to do with quality of the show or books.
Its about people claiming something is implausible, when that thing is not implausible.
A fairly constant theme in this thread regardless of what and where a scene is from.
Of course as a book devotee I think its fuckin' rich that you think Martin isn't a student of history.Big literature scare you buddy?
Hey bud, just in case you try this trick again on someone who also knows better…
But pretentious literature types don't give "genre fiction" the time of day, and would laugh you out of their coffee house the moment you brought out a Song of Ice and Fire book into their discussion of James Joyce or whatever.
I mean goddamn, there is nothing more pathetic than an outcast pretending to be a member of the aristocracy to someone he perceives as below him. Its just layer after layer of pathetic.So don't talk to me about grey writing because even GRRM is not as great as you think he is.
Oh god, this keeps getting worse. Now "grey morality" is in of itself complex deep writing.
I don't even read fiction much and I somehow know more than you do about it. Please stop the posing for your own good.You cannot draw parallels like that because while grey it's still high fantasy with dragons and time travel paradoxes?
The existence of dragons and time travel means human beings don't act like human beings because
It's not a historical fiction mate.
"How humans act in such situations" as viewed through real life events isn't really history. It's psychology.
And of course please keep ignoring the crap out of the actual issue. Calling this bad writing because it "doesn't make sense". When no it actually it does make sense.
The only way it doesn't is claiming that the humans in the series are written like complete Marvel Comics cartoons.You keep drawing direct comparisons as if it's real life.
Probably because people keep saying things don't make sense, when these are not only things that have happened in reality, but constantly all the time in reality.
Meaning the people saying this are naive at best, and super sheltered from humanity at worst.
It also helps that damn near everything in this series is based off various real historical things, combined or otherwise. From the entire backstory of Westoros being based on the history of the British Isles (Celts and Anglo-Saxons and Norman stand ins oh my!), to various characters and areas.
Martin reads history. And writes his fantasy stories with it in mind. And does so in a "warts and all" fashion rather than idealized one like we see with Tolkien.
Pretty funny that this is apparently news to you.
And it ain't even relevant to the current discussion!Go ahead, if you actually have a disagreement with me on the current line of talk, then say the following to me next post.
"Brotherhood members committing violence on peasants is unrealistic." Because that's the debate hot shot.
The only thing intensely stupid here is your blindness to find anything D&D write as good writing .
By all means die on this idiot hill. The argument is already over too.
I've proved my point. Ideologically positive people power insurgencies having members who will do things like attack and pillage villages is not remotely implausible. It has happened hundreds of times, and will happened a hundred times more.
Don't blame me for
You've decided to fight for a corpse. Tell me how that works out for you.I take it the brotherhood is one that fights the lannister in protecting the common people.
Fundamentally you've already lost if you argue from black and white morality with this series lol
Even One Piece isn't this goddamn black and white. Seriously.
This is like expecting no Marines to do bad, or all pirates to do bad or something. It's childish and as I said should immediately be laughed out of the thread.
I mean what the fuck do you think the Brotherhood is, the fucking Justice League? They're ragtag vagabonds and former soldiers sneaking around the woods. With some bosses whose stated goals are good yes. Are you eight years old or something?It's also about as stupid as reverting back jaimes character development to the same incestous idiot that he has always been.
Remind me where in his Brienne travels he renounced incest. Because I'm pretty darn sure the callous asshole is the Jaime we lost in that part.
So many characters and stuff are happening that is so different from the books and it kind of contradicts their characters; they are doing stuff that they would never do in the books.
The crazy thing about the Brotherhood is its not a character! Its a large group of guerillas! An irregular military force scrounged together from bits and pieces! What kind of simpleton expects this to be a finely oiled lock-step machine like the Unsullied or some shit.
Nobody is being laughed out of the thread because you seem to have a know it all attitude about A FICTIONAL story in somenes head.
Oh? And you're doing what? Funny how one person arguing about fictional writing choices kind of naturally requires the opposite person to be doing the same thing.
Your attitude pisses me off. I don't like know it alls as much as nobody likes idiots. And you have a know it all attitude that pisses me off.
Well nobody gives a shit Captain June 2016. If you don't like it you can fuck off. And next time pick an actual debate rather than one that never was.
I'm pretty most people would agree that grey area character are a good thing, but the point here is that they aren't so lazily executed whenever it suits them.
The only person you have to blame for being shocked that three guys from a disorganized forest rebel militia in a war-zone committed atrocity against some peasants… Is your own self. Not one soul more.
Also, if you want to look at bad writing from GRRm you only have to look at Danys, ironborn, and aryas storyline. I defend the books because they are obviously better, but even GRRm has made some terrible writing. If you're going to make changes to the story that's fine with me. But not when it contradicts previous events to the story.
And do tell. What is contradicted.
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! R.I.P. all those incredibly terrible theories about Arya and the Waif
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@Cyan:
The Brotherhood has taken a brutal turn by this point in the books as well, and Lem Lemoncloak (the guy who threatened and killed Sandor's little commune) was one of the more bloodthirsty members even before the full shift into morally dubious partisans.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Doing horrible shit to sustain themselves does not preclude the Brotherhood from doing good things, like dealing with what's left of the Lannister occupation and making Walder Frey's life as miserable as possible.
BAD WRITER WILLIAM SHAKESPEARE, HENRY V GOOD, HENRY V SOLDIERS GOOD
WHY ONE LOOT CHURCH??? -
Lots to mull over on this one.
! Might as well call this one the death of theories.
! No trial by combat is a huge curveball and a smart move by the High Sparrow, but it unfortunately derails #CleganeBowl for the time being. Can't argue with a choice that makes a lot of in-universe logic.
! Sandor's character arc is interesting here. He murders a bunch of Brotherhood men who may or may not have participated in the massacre, but then continues to receive proselytization from Thoros and, surprisingly, Beric, whose "alive" status deals a hefty blow to LSH truthers. And some of the Brotherhood is apparently aware of the White Walkers? Curiouser and curiouser.
! @MK The Brotherhood isn't THAT big, so it's kind of implied that the leadership keeps a fairly tight rein on outright banditry and murder. It seemed pretty improbable that just three men without heavy armor could kill some ~30 people, so I personally inferred that a larger group comprising a significant portion of the Brotherhood's men engaged in behavior antithetical to a group that supposedly prides itself on defending the smallfolk. It's entirely plausible that there could be a few bad eggs among the group but the scope of the massacre seemed to imply that this was a more sanctioned action. That's been resolved, and now the only plot hole is how three men could have murdered ten times their number and shot that many arrows.
! Anyways, Jaime continues to zigzag his character, but I suppose that's better than having him be a constant douche. The Brienne stuff was handled pretty well, but I think his speech to Edmure worked better when he was bluffing and it wasn't all about Cersei. Annoyed that the Blackfish died
! considering that he's specifically alive in the books, though his death might have something to do with possible future intersections with LSH.
! Arya does a thing. Cool or whatever. At least the character wasn't actively dumb, even if I was virtually expecting the Waif to Michael Myers walk the entire time :getlost:
! Dany's back. Oh joy. At least Tyrion had a pair of scenes in which he wasn't unbearable.
! Speaking of which Varys's departure means he's probably headed back to King's Landing to assassinate Kevan and Pycelle.
! All in all, decent character-driven episode. Certainly a few key developments but still rather surprising that pieces are still moving into play this late in the season.If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life
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! It seemed pretty improbable that just three men without heavy armor could kill some ~30 people, so I personally inferred that a larger group comprising a significant portion of the Brotherhood's men engaged in behavior antithetical to a group that supposedly prides itself on defending the smallfolk.
! Three seasoned bandits murdering the hell out of like 20 pacifistic peasants who's only weapons are a few axes and maybe a mallet isn't all that improbable. Especially if the bandits are on horseback.
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
Occam's Razor: The Episode
! Speaking of which Varys's departure means he's probably headed back to King's Landing to assassinate Kevan and Pycelle.
! Note that Varys left right before Meereen got attacked. Not wholly out of character for him to bolt for safety when he knows something's coming.
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@MK The Brotherhood isn't THAT big,
I didn't realize I specified a number you could respond with this to.
Aside from "not the size of a classroom" lol.
Also as before I'm going off the show, one can't simultaneously complain about all the differences and then decide to pretend the show is exactly like the book when its convenient. If the book characterized them as like 20 dudes, thats the book. This is not how they were presented ever in the show.
And if anything is implausible it would be 20 dudes successfully waging insurgency against anything larger than a medium sized police force.so it's kind of implied that the leadership keeps a fairly tight rein on outright banditry and murder.
It is never implied that a roving irregular rebel force is tightly controlled.
In fact it isn't even implied that a regular military force is tightly controlled in medieval times.
A tightly controlled one would be the exception to the rule. Like say religious fanatics, or brainwashed eunuchs. And while yeah there's a religious element to these guys, it's hella loose compared to the example I mean. The Faith Militant.Here I'll even "spoil" myself with the Book oriented wiki.
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brotherhood_without_banners
So this is a second hand source for me, you've actually read the books I take it.
But is the following sentence wrong?
"Their number increases as they are joined by defeated soldiers from other battles, deserters and refugees from the War of the Five Kings."Because lol at that being tightly controlled, small, and not exactly the sort of force that will have rough edges and bad apples among it.
It seemed pretty improbable that just three men without heavy armor could kill some ~30 people,
Unarmed medieval hippies (including old people and kids) versus three soldiers with horses. Not a conundrum this.
so I personally inferred that a larger group comprising a significant portion of the Brotherhood's men engaged in behavior antithetical to a group that supposedly prides itself on defending the smallfolk.
No matter how many times someone carts out "But but they care about the common people!", I am never not going to laugh. It is a really really bad argument. It doesn't stand up to…well anything really. Unless we were talking about the leadership. Your inference that it was a large force is unessacry to begin with, but if you can believe they went and got more guys...why can't you believe that these three got armor and more weapons?
It's entirely plausible that there could be a few bad eggs among the group but the scope of the massacre seemed to imply that this was a more sanctioned action.
No not really. Some isolated bunch of virtually defenseless dark age pilgrims or whatever do not require ranked military strategy.
That's been resolved, and now the only plot hole is how three men could have murdered ten times their number and shot that many arrows.
Probably by slicing them and shooting arrows until they didn't need to shoot more arrows.
As the people who were clearly outlined as pacifist scrambled around screaming and generally doing nothing much.If it seems like I think the show is perfectly written, that only because I mostly attack complaints in here.
But the only reason I do that is because, lets be honest, this thread is full of really dumb complaints.
Are there lots of really awkward bits of writing and even whole plotlines? Oh yeah.
But it seems like there's some thread culture in here (as spiritually lead by TLC) where everyones scrambling over each-other to show who is the most unsatisfied. Like some sort of OroJackson thing, except instead of the point being big stupid theory posts the point is who bitches the most.
And much like OroJackson, the actual point? Being critical of the writing? Isn't actually happening. Because damn are there some seriously not thought out complaints.
Like seriously dude. A plot hole is a serious accusation that implies a lack of structural integrity to the plot.
Saying "I don't know if 3 people with swords can kill 20 or so potato farmers!" is not a friggin' plot hole. -
All right, a good character episode this week.
! Gotta admit I didn't see the trial-by-combat restriction coming. Interesting. Guess that puts some wrinkles in some Cleganebowl theories. Also interesting: Varys's secret mission. Wonder if they'll go the book route with that.
! I'm so glad it didn't come to a fight between Jaime and Brienne. I love their friendship and I'm really glad it remains intact even though they're on opposite sides. The Bronn & Pod stuff was cute too. Too bad about the Blackfish's death. Now let's really hope Sansa's request for help from Baelish last week pays off.
! Long time no see, Thoros and Beric. So Cleganebowl seems less likely or at least delayed for the time being, but maybe Sandor joins the Brotherhood? Huh.
! Gotta admit, since I knew from the credits that Daenerys was in this episode, I was kind of hoping she'd straight-up torch the enemy ships, but hey, she's back in Meereen. More Dany-Tyrion talk scenes like the one last season, please. Also, please head to Westeros. Don't make it too long into next season before that happens.
! Yes, Arya finally killed the Waif! My friend I watch with hates her even more than I do, so he straight-up cheered when she was offed. Arya was never no one, glad she finally decided that for herself too.So next week's episode is called "Battle of the Bastards." Hope this is where Ramsay finally takes Longclaw to the face. Or at least takes something that finally offs him. -
I didn't realize I specified a number you could respond with this to.
Aside from "not the size of a classroom" lol.
Also as before I'm going off the show, one can't simultaneously complain about all the differences and then decide to pretend the show is exactly like the book when its convenient. If the book characterized them as like 20 dudes, thats the book. This is not how they were presented ever in the show.
And if anything is implausible it would be 20 dudes successfully waging insurgency against anything larger than a medium sized police force.I don't recall seeing anything on the show describing the size of the Brotherhood, but certainly there wasn't anything to characterize it as "large." I'd hardly call their insurgency successful either since the Brotherhood has accomplished fuck-all in the show and they haven't even been mentioned in the previous two seasons.
It is never implied that a roving irregular rebel force is tightly controlled.
In fact it isn't even implied that a regular military force is tightly controlled in medieval times.
A tightly controlled one would be the exception to the rule. Like say religious fanatics, or brainwashed eunuchs. And while yeah there's a religious element to these guys, it's hella loose compared to the example I mean. The Faith Militant.They're apparently loyal enough to convert to the Lord of Light. I'm not saying they're well disciplined at all, just that the majority of the Brotherhood's goals and ideals are close enough in line with Beric's and Thoros's to follow them instead of just going off on their own as bandits.
Here I'll even "spoil" myself with the Book oriented wiki
http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Brotherhood_without_banners
So this is a second hand source for me, you've actually read the books I take it.
But is the following sentence wrong?
"Their number increases as they are joined by defeated soldiers from other battles, deserters and refugees from the War of the Five Kings."
I don't see how you can disregard the books at one point and then cite them later. Yes, the Brotherhood grows and gets shadier in the books. But I haven't seen any evidence of growth in the show.Because lol at that being tightly controlled, small, and not exactly the sort of force that will have rough edges and bad apples among it.
As I've explained, tightly controlled is an exaggeration of both my words and meaning, and I explicitly stated later that a few rough edges and bad apples are to be expected.
Unarmed medieval hippies (including old people and kids) versus three soldiers with horses. Not a conundrum this.
A good portion of them seemed to be men fit enough for hard labor. Pacifism can go out the window pretty quickly when some asshole is killing your wife and friends.
No matter how many times someone carts out "But but they care about the common people!", I am never not going to laugh. It is a really really bad argument. It doesn't stand up to…well anything really. Unless we were talking about the leadership. Your inference that it was a large force is unessacry to begin with, but if you can believe they went and got more guys...why can't you believe that these three got armor and more weapons?
More weapons is certainly likely. I've never seen a Brotherhood member with anything more than light leather armor though.
No not really. Some isolated bunch of virtually defenseless dark age pilgrims or whatever do not require ranked military strategy.
Probably by slicing them and shooting arrows until they didn't need to shoot more arrows.
As the people who were clearly outlined as pacifist scrambled around screaming and generally doing nothing much.If it seems like I think the show is perfectly written, that only because I mostly attack complaints in here.
But the only reason I do that is because, lets be honest, this thread is full of really dumb complaints.
Are there lots of really awkward bits of writing and even whole plotlines? Oh yeah.
But it seems like there's some thread culture in here (as spiritually lead by TLC) where everyones scrambling over each-other to show who is the most unsatisfied. Like some sort of OroJackson thing, except instead of the point being big stupid theory posts the point is who bitches the most.
And much like OroJackson, the actual point? Being critical of the writing? Isn't actually happening. Because damn are there some seriously not thought out complaints.
Like seriously dude. A plot hole is a serious accusation that implies a lack of structural integrity to the plot.
Saying "I don't know if 3 people with swords can kill 20 or so potato farmers!" is not a friggin' plot hole.The way the scene of Sandor finding the bodies was shot, it implied that everyone died fairly close together and that no one escaped. Furthermore, none of the three men apparently received any wounds at all. I just found it hard to believe that three men could kill some 30 or 40 people in that fashion.
BUT, it's all a fairly minor issue. I was reasonably satisfied with the way the scene was resolved and even if I don't totally buy the explanation the show gave, I can put it aside since at most it's a very small plot hole. And as you've said, the show has much larger problems to figure out.
If you're not a book reader, I can see a lot of the complaints on this thread can seem pedantic. The books are by and large better written than the show and of course have more room to flesh out the characters, so it's easy to compare the two and be disappointed with the show. There's also the likelihood that people have become almost desensitized to some of the crap writing and it's a lot easier to focus on specific details rather than tackle the whole turd.
If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life
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! It really bothers me that Arya gets injured so horribly but then is fine. Apparently all she needs is a bandage around her waist and opium dreams to get better. And then when her wounds re-open during that intense chase, she somehow manages to kill the waif AND magically not be dying again. What the hell.
! Oh and also why did Jaqen say "oh you killed her so I guess you're finally worthy?" No logic to that. I also wonder why he seemed so happy that she rejected him in the end. -
I don't recall seeing anything on the show describing the size of the Brotherhood, but certainly there wasn't anything to characterize it as "large." I'd hardly call their insurgency successful either since the Brotherhood has accomplished fuck-all in the show and they haven't even been mentioned in the previous two seasons.
An insurgency is going to be lots of dudes. You are still talking in terms of a small group for no reason at all.
Successful in this case would be not being wiped out and having relevance of any kind. Which 20 people are never going to be capable of.
I take it by your tense here that you actually think its like the size of a bowling club. Which yeah man! No!They're apparently loyal enough to convert to the Lord of Light.
That peace loving religion that is not a larger thing than the Brotherhood?
I'm not saying they're well disciplined at all, just that the majority of the Brotherhood's goals and ideals are close enough in line with Beric's and Thoros's to follow them instead of just going off on their own as bandits.
Even if the majority of the Brotherhood is as you say… this is three guys. So this really makes no point even if its true. The main goal of anyone involved in this insurgency judging by the membership stated there is...fuck the Lanisters and fuck the Frays. Also power in numbers in general surely is a hella motive. The recruitment base isn't ideologues, its lots of derelict folks who fell to the wayside in the chaos of the Riverlands fighting.
I don't see how you can disregard the books at one point and then cite them later. Yes, the Brotherhood grows and gets shadier in the books. But I haven't seen any evidence of growth in the show.
You should however be able to see that I can attack your argument from every possible angle this way, your understanding of what they are isn't relevant to the show based off the book alone.
But your (and the others) logic here is so absurd to me I had a hunch (apparently correct!) that fundamentally this entire argument is still based on poor reading comprehension further based off poor understanding of how guerilla movements operate.
Your attempt to reverse it here makes no sense lol, the show never suggests whatever idea you had in your head (and idea not even from the books apparently). That description from the books? Well shucks, that was exactly the impression the show gave as well. In fact I'm pretty sure they or someone more or less described them as exactly that way in the show. As starting from the troops sent to stop the Mountain and then snowballing with recruits from the chaos in the area. With a definite anti-crown motive bonding them together.
This is precisely what I thought they were without touching the books….to which you seemed to suggest the books differed....except apparently not.
So really there is no version of this story where the Brotherhood is not a Katamari Damacy of Riverlands chaos recruits.As I've explained, tightly controlled is an exaggeration of both my words and meaning, and I explicitly stated later that a few rough edges and bad apples are to be expected.
So what DO you mean?
A good portion of them seemed to be men fit enough for hard labor.
Ok cool. Now how does that stack up to experienced military troops.
It doesn't is the answer.
"WATCH OUT GUVNER, ME HANDS ARE CALLOUSED FROM PLANTIN' SQUASH, I'M A REAL TOUGH ONE I AM"Pacifism can go out the window pretty quickly when some asshole is killing your wife and friends.
Panic also has a way of setting in and destroying social cohesion right quick among scared defenseless people.
Seriously, you're grasping at straws to explain something that doesn't need explaining.The way the scene of Sandor finding the bodies was shot, it implied that everyone died fairly close together and that no one escaped. Furthermore, none of the three men apparently received any wounds at all. I just found it hard to believe that three men could kill some 30 or 40 people in that fashion.
I like how you keep sneaking your estimate of their population up every post. Next time it will be 50?
If you're not a book reader, I can see a lot of the complaints on this thread can seem pedantic.
No a lot of the complaints sound like people who don't have much experience outside of reading fantasy books talking about "plausibility" and so on.
People who seem clueless as to what sets Tolkein and Martin apart from the other genero authors they read (Hint: those two read lots of history and real life folklore!).The books are by and large better written than the show and of course have more room to flesh out the characters, so it's easy to compare the two and be disappointed with the show.
Does reading the book also cause one to be ignorant about how human beings, states, religious movements and so on work? Because gosh I just can't come up with an excuse for that.
There's also the likelihood that people have become almost desensitized to some of the crap writing and it's a lot easier to focus on specific details rather than tackle the whole turd.
There's plenty of good writing, some awkward writing down the middle, and some crap writing.
That all these people keep marching in here like its all crap is exactly what I mean by it being exaggerated stupidity. -
My argument boils down to "these guys in the books would totally hang the priest ex soldier and burn the church but not kill the random villagers."
3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837
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i am satisfied. they wraped up the brotherhood thing exactly how i wanted them. they were renegades, and the people who sandor killed at the camp are probably among them because that bold guy who got his dick stabbed by an axe was with the two men when they talked to the pacifists. so yeah six or seven armed men could potentially do alot of damage to a unarmed village of pacifists.
i knew thoros and beric weren't evil savages who'd order the killing of inncents. -
If you're not a book reader, I can see a lot of the complaints on this thread can seem pedantic. The books are by and large better written than the show and of course have more room to flesh out the characters, so it's easy to compare the two and be disappointed with the show. There's also the likelihood that people have become almost desensitized to some of the crap writing and it's a lot easier to focus on specific details rather than tackle the whole turd.
The books have their own problems, in that Martin's basically lost control over the overall narrative and gotten lost in his own world (understandably since he's building the thing so damn well), spinning off increasingly disparate plot threads and teetering on the edge of incoherency. The show has taken generally the right approach to adapting it, though combining and intersecting plots and characters and axing some altogether has produced mixed results obviously. I do agree with a number of D&D's choices where things have been cut, simplified, and smoothed out. With the trajectory that the last two books have followed, I'm not entirely convinced the last few books are going to be significantly better than the last few seasons of the show. The ridiculous scope and ambition for this show is to be admired even with the misfires. There are very few times where I've been really truly disappointed in the adaptation. I understand most of the choices they make, even when a few of them legitimately suck (hello, shitty Dorne storyline!).
Martin's exploration of his characters and world-building is his strength - helps when you actually understand people and history - but by this point he's gotten so unfocused it's hard to see real narrative thrust. Whereas with the show they've managed to keep the narrative momentum going fairly nicely, even though it's involved some shaky logistics along the way and at the cost of exploring some of the characters properly. Still these are different mediums we're talking about here, a straight adaptation is impossible and this is one of the truest I can think of in the genre.
@Monkey:But it seems like there's some thread culture in here (as spiritually lead by TLC) where everyones scrambling over each-other to show who is the most unsatisfied. Like some sort of OroJackson thing, except instead of the point being big stupid theory posts the point is who bitches the most.
And much like OroJackson, the actual point? Being critical of the writing? Isn't actually happening. Because damn are there some seriously not thought out complaints.
Like seriously dude. A plot hole is a serious accusation that implies a lack of structural integrity to the plot.
Saying "I don't know if 3 people with swords can kill 20 or so potato farmers!" is not a friggin' plot hole.I read most of the stupid complaints as attempts to look smart.
'The books are so much better" is usually such a fucking lazy criticism of any adaptation, and it's worse when compounded by "here's a super nitpicky, anal retentive list of every scene and why I think it's dumb and THE BOOKS ARE SO MUCH BETTER MAN."
It reminds me of this guy I work with, who every Monday morning comes to me with a rundown of every scene on last nights episode that was stupid, followed by some of the worst fucking theories you've ever heard. It's clear he fancies himself some sort of literary and television critic when it's clear the show is whizzing right by him in his attempt to prove to me how smart he is. I'm already cringing thinking about tomorrow morning.
It's definitely a culture not limited to this thread, it infiltrates real life. Credit to everyone involved for creating such a popular series, but fuck has it resulted in a lot of stupid.
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! It really bothers me that Arya gets injured so horribly but then is fine. Apparently all she needs is a bandage around her waist and opium dreams to get better. And then when her wounds re-open during that intense chase, she somehow manages to kill the waif AND magically not be dying again. What the hell.
! Oh and also why did Jaqen say "oh you killed her so I guess you're finally worthy?" No logic to that. I also wonder why he seemed so happy that she rejected him in the end.Exactly where my train of thought was.
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I could never remember that the Waif was referred to as such. I had just been calling her Snitch Bitch.
! This episode was a bit strange to me content wise. It had a lot of friendship stuff going on. Which was nice. Then a couple derailing plot points. I thought the actress would be around longer or Arya join the troupe. I thought trail by combat would happen. I'm not entirely disappointed.
! Tyrion trying again to get people to lighten up felt a bit long…I'd say that was the only blah part.
! Woo Danny is back. -
did you guys see how gregor ripped off that idiot's head with his bare hands? that was freaking awesome, with the ominous music and all.
and the look on cersei's face? i would put that in a dictionary in place of "satisfaction".
smart move high sparrow, if you didn't put an end to the trial by combat, that would be the fate of whoever idiot try to fight him.
oh and there is common theory about cersei burning down king's landing with wild fire, i presume that is what she wanted to know from her new master of whispers?
whats weirder is how jaime droped the "burn cities to ash" line while talking to edmure about her… -
I do look forward to seeing how this Dorne plotline fits into the entire scheme of things in the coming seasons (or whether it will be shoved under the carpet). If they wanted to do season 5 derivations, they should have put more Iron Islands shenanigans in there. The fact that Balon was alive and kicking for this long was kinda hilarious.
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! It really bothers me that Arya gets injured so horribly but then is fine. Apparently all she needs is a bandage around her waist and opium dreams to get better. And then when her wounds re-open during that intense chase, she somehow manages to kill the waif AND magically not be dying again. What the hell.
! Oh and also why did Jaqen say "oh you killed her so I guess you're finally worthy?" No logic to that. I also wonder why he seemed so happy that she rejected him in the end.! It wouldn't surprise me if he just happy to get rid of her as she was clearly a terrible assassin. I do wonder if her experiences would lead to anything or whether this was just a way to keep Arya distracted for a few seasons.
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@Monkey:
An insurgency is going to be lots of dudes. You are still talking in terms of a small group for no reason at all.
Successful in this case would be not being wiped out and having relevance of any kind. Which 20 people are never going to be capable of.
I take it by your tense here that you actually think its like the size of a bowling club. Which yeah man! No!Don't know why you keep referring to them as a group of 20. I kind of assumed it was 50-100 people strong; if we're using the books as a reference, the Brotherhood was first formed by about 30 surviving soldiers from Beric's expedition to arrest the Mountain.
That peace loving religion that is not a larger thing than the Brotherhood?
R'hllor worship is pretty much foreign to all of Westeros, which is why Melisandre converting many of Stannis's followers was such a big deal. If those three went around talking about the Lord of Light and other such things they've likely converted, presumably due to respect or at least deference to Thoros's power.
Even if the majority of the Brotherhood is as you say… this is three guys. So this really makes no point even if its true. The main goal of anyone involved in this insurgency judging by the membership stated there is...fuck the Lanisters and fuck the Frays. Also power in numbers in general surely is a hella motive. The recruitment base isn't ideologues, its lots of derelict folks who fell to the wayside in the chaos of the Riverlands fighting.
Actually, it's more of a "fuck anyone that has an army" since they tend to prey upon the commoners. The specific Frey and Lannister hate is tied to a different character, though it's not impossible for the Brotherhood to have adopted that stance on their own. As for the people joining, it's easy to imagine many of them fighting to protect their homeland or as revenge for loved ones killed by soldiers.
You should however be able to see that I can attack your argument from every possible angle this way, your understanding of what they are isn't relevant to the show based off the book alone.
But your (and the others) logic here is so absurd to me I had a hunch (apparently correct!) that fundamentally this entire argument is still based on poor reading comprehension further based off poor understanding of how guerilla movements operate.
Your attempt to reverse it here makes no sense lol, the show never suggests whatever idea you had in your head (and idea not even from the books apparently). That description from the books? Well shucks, that was exactly the impression the show gave as well. In fact I'm pretty sure they or someone more or less described them as exactly that way in the show. As starting from the troops sent to stop the Mountain and then snowballing with recruits from the chaos in the area. With a definite anti-crown motive bonding them together.
This is precisely what I thought they were without touching the books….to which you seemed to suggest the books differed....except apparently not.
So really there is no version of this story where the Brotherhood is not a Katamari Damacy of Riverlands chaos recruits.OK, I'd forgotten that one of the members, probably Thoros, had mentioned that they'd pulled in some local recruits.
Still, their lack of presence or mention by any lord seems to discount their effectiveness, so I think "snowballing" is a bit of an overestimate. Besides, the Riverlands are nominally at peace now so conditions shouldn't be getting any worse than they already are. You'd expect to see a decrease in new recruits.
Ok cool. Now how does that stack up to experienced military troops.
It doesn't is the answer.
"WATCH OUT GUVNER, ME HANDS ARE CALLOUSED FROM PLANTIN' SQUASH, I'M A REAL TOUGH ONE I AM"A dozen men with axes should provide some sort of threat, but I'm willing to admit I might be overestimating the competency of the villagers.
I like how you keep sneaking your estimate of their population up every post. Next time it will be 50?
I'd said 30 originally and you were negotiating down. With any luck, we'll soon be debating if there were 200 people or if the septon was actually there by himself.
No a lot of the complaints sound like people who don't have much experience outside of reading fantasy books talking about "plausibility" and so on.
People who seem clueless as to what sets Tolkein and Martin apart from the other genero authors they read (Hint: those two read lots of history and real life folklore!).Some of those plausibility complaints are valid, like how the hell Littlefinger pops up in isolated Mole Town after being in the Vale in the previous episode. Other complaints, of course, are not.
If we're still talking specifically about this incident then people objected to it because straight-up massacring civilians is very much out of character for the Brotherhood. Accosting travelers, ransoming nobles, and robbing commoners in the name of protecting them are all fair game and of course have real life counterparts. The mass killing of peasants isn't in their repertoire and, while I'm certainly not as well-versed in history as you, I'd like to believe that there were at least a few guerilla groups out there that didn't slaughter peasants for looking at them funny. Once this episode cleared up that that attack was not approved by the leadership, complaints stopped.
Does reading the book also cause one to be ignorant about how human beings, states, religious movements and so on work? Because gosh I just can't come up with an excuse for that.
Dunno if that's specifically directed at me or not. I can't answer on behalf of other people and it's too broad to counter myself.
There's plenty of good writing, some awkward writing down the middle, and some crap writing.
That all these people keep marching in here like its all crap is exactly what I mean by it being exaggerated stupidity.You think it's bad here? Definitely avoid places like A Forum of Ice and Fire, which has threads specifically dedicated to complaining about each episode. Personally I try to give the show credit when I'm impressed, but I do find it a lot easier to focus on the negatives. I think this season has definitely improved from a rocky start though.
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The books have their own problems, in that Martin's basically lost control over the overall narrative and gotten lost in his own world (understandably since he's building the thing so damn well), spinning off increasingly disparate plot threads and teetering on the edge of incoherency. The show has taken generally the right approach to adapting it, though combining and intersecting plots and characters and axing some altogether has produced mixed results obviously. I do agree with a number of D&D's choices where things have been cut, simplified, and smoothed out. With the trajectory that the last two books have followed, I'm not entirely convinced the last few books are going to be significantly better than the last few seasons of the show. The ridiculous scope and ambition for this show is to be admired even with the misfires. There are very few times where I've been really truly disappointed in the adaptation. I understand most of the choices they make, even when a few of them legitimately suck (hello, shitty Dorne storyline!).
Martin's exploration of his characters and world-building is his strength - helps when you actually understand people and history - but by this point he's gotten so unfocused it's hard to see real narrative thrust. Whereas with the show they've managed to keep the narrative momentum going fairly nicely, even though it's involved some shaky logistics along the way and at the cost of exploring some of the characters properly. Still these are different mediums we're talking about here, a straight adaptation is impossible and this is one of the truest I can think of in the genre.
I can definitely agree with this. While I don't find the last two books as bad as some people, GRRM's definitely got caught in the classic world-building trap and is having trouble squeezing it back down to some semblance of a focused finale. As long as he can keep it in three theatres (King's Landing/the south, the North, and Dany/Meereen) and tie them together he's probably fine, but some of the additional intrigue like the Tattered Prince and the Citadel, while interesting, seem to be highly unnecessary.
Some of the directorial choices have certainly been smart. Replacing Jeyne Poole with Sansa, for instance, was idiotic in-universe but smart for the show to conserve characters and bring them together. On the other hand, I don't think the show has been any better in terms of avoiding pointless plots. Ignoring the Dorne debacle, season 3 was filled with extra Theon torture scenes that got tiresome very quickly, and Arya's two seasons of isolation in Braavos haven't exactly developed her character.
I'd even argue that the show is mostly treading water this season as the directors seem reluctant to stray too far beyond the books, and as a consequence it feels like the least eventful season since at least season 3. A good part of me just wants them to do it and be done with it, so I and other book readers can fully divorce the two in our heads. There's a reason that the events in King's Landing have been some of the most intriguing for me so far. I'm more generous to the show when it delves into new territory.
If you get dunked on in the dream, you get dunked on in real life
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one last fangasm from me, i promise. this episode was just too good
did you guys see the naval fleet of the sons of harpy? oh my god that blew me away. they had catapults on them that flung fiery rocks, that's a genius idea.
mk is that based on factual historical information? did people in the middle ages actually mount catapults on their ships when they sieged cities near bodies of water?
i am a one piece fan for a reason and that reason is ships and sea battles, so i really really hope to see more of that here. -
Gotta love how they made Tyrion do such a shitty ooc job of governing Mereen just to make Dany look like a heroic badass whose going to clean up his mess when she came back. Never mind she's the reason for this whole mess in the first place and can only make things worse if the story followed any internal logic. I'm sure everything is going to boil down to simple black and white logic of defeating the enemy though which will suit her just fine.
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Also screw the Arya plotline so hard. It was such a waste of time.
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Too bad Arya didn't have the chance to show Jon how to sleep off multiple stab wounds, that would've made things easier.
I was looking forward to Jaime intimidating Edmure by having him listen to "Rains of Castamere". But I guess they didn't need to do that.
Blackfish, you will be missed.
Will we finally end up seeing Lady Stoneheart? It's unclear at the moment. However, the mentions of
! Catelyn and the re-introduction of the Freys are a good indication. Or they're just stringing us along. Anyway, good to see the Brotherhood again.
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! So the major hyped up things got shot down this episode? 1) Cleganebowl - No trial by combat hence no cleganebowl. Perhaps some other way later on 2) No LSH - Beric is still alive and if LSH was there, she should have made an appearance by now I suppose
! I was reading somewhere about Clegane being the Azor Ahai and it still seems he has some "duty" to perform now. Not sure about the credibility of it but I still like how the Clegane story is going.
! Arya's story was so poor it's a pity that so many ppl had predicted outstandingly cool ways as to how the story could have ended up in“When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."
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@xan:
! Arya's story was so poor it's a pity that so many ppl had predicted outstandingly cool ways as to how the story could have ended up in
im surprised by people saying that. what else would you guys have expected?
she trained in the arts of staff fighting and she kicked the waif's ass in one of her training sessions, yeah it's kinda underwhelming and i would've liked to see her get trained in using other weapons but whats important is that she learned how to become a cold blooded person and forsake her childhood (remember when she gave the poisoned water to the sick kid) in order to get revenge on the people who wronged her.
the battle with the waif was the last part of her training. -
Her training was certainly complete for sure…especially when she also waltzed around waving a bag of money, sat on a bridge in the open, and fell for a pretty obvious assassination attempt only an episode before this one.
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Would it have killed them to have Arya say "Not today" before extinguishing the candle?
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My argument boils down to "these guys in the books would totally hang the priest ex soldier and burn the church but not kill the random villagers."
What? They have never been charactetized as religious zealots. Heck, they even save some brothers of the faith of the seven from the brave companions. Just because they believe in the lord of light doesn't mean they are gonna start killing priests and burning churches.
It's far more likely for brute blood thirsty rogue members to kill and rob some peasants than specifically killing priests
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I'm so late in getting into this series.
I'm notoriously lazy and don't "check things out" very often, so as someone who never read the books I was oblivious to just how good this series is.
Then I sat with my friend on vacation last week while he marathon-ed his DVDs. We watched most of season 2 & 3 and I loved what I saw.Tyrion should be a king. Dude is too smart and awesome to get treated the way he does.
He's my absolute favourite character as of now.I'm currently reading through this thread from the beginning, and I lol'd when I saw this:
To be blunt, shows like these, despite how much I enjoy them don't last 6 seasons.
Yeah, about that…
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There was a point where a lot of people insisted it would end after season 4 because hype only lasts so long.
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What? They have never been charactetized as religious zealots. Heck, they even save some brothers of the faith of the seven from the brave companions. Just because they believe in the lord of light doesn't mean they are gonna start killing priests and burning churches.
It's far more likely for brute blood thirsty rogue members to kill and rob some peasants than specifically killing priests
Its not zealotism when you have zombies in your organization.
And if they killed him for any reason is for.being ex soldier, not priest. They burn the symbols not the people, the only priest killed was one in dragon stone when he refused to let them burn the Sept and attacked Mel's zealots. Those are in fact zealots as they haven't seen any miracle.
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(hello, shitty Dorne storyline!)
The Dorne plot is shitty and annoyingly late in the books, so we were screwed one way or the other on it.
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Better episode than last week. Now we can get to the good stuff.
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Its not zealotism when you have zombies in your organization.
And if they killed him for any reason is for.being ex soldier, not priest. They burn the symbols not the people, the only priest killed was one in dragon stone when he refused to let them burn the Sept and attacked Mel's zealots. Those are in fact zealots as they haven't seen any miracle.
These aren't stannis' men, they don't burn the symbols of other religions. Thoros is their priest, not Melisandre. Just because two groups of people worship the same god doesn't mean they'll behave the same way. The brotherhood without banners burning churches wouldn't bring them closer to their book characterization so far. two differents outlooks on religion, that's it.
There could be a couple black sheeps thinking that all false religions should be destroyed, but for the time being and as far as we know it's not something a big part of the brotherhood believes in.
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Don't know why you keep referring to them as a group of 20.Because you and the others talk about them as if its just that posse who hangs around the bosses, like a small group of war buddies or something. The sort of thing that might plausibly have very tight moral bondings.
R'hllor worship is pretty much foreign to all of Westeros, which is why Melisandre converting many of Stannis's followers was such a big deal. If those three went around talking about the Lord of Light and other such things they've likely converted, presumably due to respect or at least deference to Thoros's power.
But all of that is an entirely separate thing to the Robin Hood aspect.
Actually, it's more of a "fuck anyone that has an army" since they tend to prey upon the commoners. The specific Frey and Lannister hate is tied to a different character, though it's not impossible for the Brotherhood to have adopted that stance on their own. As for the people joining, it's easy to imagine many of them fighting to protect their homeland or as revenge for loved ones killed by soldiers.
Its also easy to imagine guys with nothing at all trying to survive, guys driven by pure revenge and greater cause against some lord or two also are perfectly likely to kill when they feel the need. Or just random thugs and shitheads. And is it really anyone that has an army when the core founders were from a specific army?
OK, I'd forgotten that one of the members, probably Thoros, had mentioned that they'd pulled in some local recruits.
Still, their lack of presence or mention by any lord seems to discount their effectiveness, so I think "snowballing" is a bit of an overestimate. Besides, the Riverlands are nominally at peace now so conditions shouldn't be getting any worse than they already are. You'd expect to see a decrease in new recruits.
When have the Riverlands been at peace? Practically since the start they have been a shitty Poland in WW2 like crap zone. First Rob was fighting Lannisters there, then the Frays holding poor control and fighting Tully's and the Brotherhood. Hell even before all that the Mountain and his dudes were rampaging around it.
Only just this past episode is stability probable….except the Fray's are incompetent goobers and now rule it lol.
I'm pretty sure them sucking so hard is part of the whole reason the Brotherhood exists and continues to exist.Some of those plausibility complaints are valid, like how the hell Littlefinger pops up in isolated Mole Town after being in the Vale in the previous episode. Other complaints, of course, are not.
The point isn't that there are no valid points. The point is a consistent level of people seemingly complaining before they think. An over eager rush to condemn.
If we're still talking specifically about this incident then people objected to it because straight-up massacring civilians is very much out of character for the Brotherhood.
Which is still a tremendously terrible argument reflecting super naive views about human beings…which I find really damn odd given the series in question.
Accosting travelers, ransoming nobles, and robbing commoners in the name of protecting them are all fair game and of course have real life counterparts.
Ok…
The mass killing of peasants isn't in their repertoire and,
and has countless real life counterparts.
You'd think the people power communist rebels of the world wouldn't intimidate, extort, and yes massacre the peasants and commoners they claim to defend? But you'd be very wrong! Even sometimes actually from official orders and not just one group of soldiers being brutal.while I'm certainly not as well-versed in history as you, I'd like to believe that there were at least a few guerilla groups out there that didn't slaughter peasants for looking at them funny.
Its common as hell.
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Well, at least was an splinter and not the whole brotherhood.
Nice episode. My only complaint is about those who complain about the lack of the cleganebowl. What do people expect to happen if not Mountain vs Oberin round 2, but this time the mountain is inmune to poison, bleeding, getting tired, and spikes to the chest (aparently) and the Oberin stand in had recently his legs bones coming out of it. The best that any single person in trial by combat can hope to archive against that monster is to unmask it. ç
Arya might get to dismantle it little by little tough.
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Well, at least was an splinter and not the whole brotherhood.
Nice episode. My only complaint is about those who complain about the lack of the cleganebowl. What do people expect to happen if not Mountain vs Oberin round 2, but this time the mountain is inmune to poison, bleeding, getting tired, and spikes to the chest (aparently) and the Oberin stand in had recently his legs bones coming out of it. The best that any single person in trial by combat can hope to archive against that monster is to unmask it. ç
Arya might get to dismantle it little by little tough.
I suppose he could cut off the head and all 4 limbs?
Oberyn basically had the mountain beaten thanks to his greater agility, The Hound could probably do the same.
With a more thorough, gruesome and professional ending though.
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The thing is the broken leg. He shouldn't be able to muster the speed to do it nor the strength to cleave the limb through armor, specially that armor.
His only chance is that someone else sabotages the mountain first.
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That Sparrow managed to cleave through that armour though?
Unluckily for him the unMountain is immune to piercing attacks it seems.
Also, The Hound seems to be generating plenty of power with just his arms, like we saw with that axe and that BwB member's head.
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Pretty stoked on the next episode - Battle of the Bastards. Now I wonder how Jon Snow is gonna win because, he's gonna win right? There's no point on resurrecting him otherwise. I just don't want cliche like Littlefinger's army saving the day. We got lots of that already. But probably gonna still happen because this season seem pretty tame on shocking events so far. My personal fantasy is Jon Snow suddenly awakens his AoE super-warg powers (he has warg potential on the book) and control several of the Bolton's men to kill themselves (just like Lelouch!).
