Littlefinger looking ashamed and astounded about Sansa not instantly trusting him like everyone else he's ever met was a wondrous sight to behold.
Game of Thrones (tv show thread)
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! Time travel always ends up being bullshit, when it tries to follow its own rules. It's fine in small doses like this, but I hope they don't delve too much into the concept. That being said, that was super sad. Try not to cry.
! Also, it's awesome to see Varys being thrown off, although I hate these priestesses. -
although I hate these priestesses.
I used to hate Melisandre and the way she manipulated Stannis (and you know, some of the horrible stuff she did). But they are basically the perfect literal representation of the seductiveness of religion and magic.
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oh so he can go back to the past using all the trees with faces and not just the bloodraven's one?
but it doesn't seem like each tree will give him an exclusive vision, the bloodraven's showed him visions from alot different places and times.The weirwood trees are all kind of linked so Bran should be able to eventually see out any weirwood face if he's in contact with one tree. Bloodraven's tree just seems to be particularly ancient.
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I used to hate Melisandre and the way she manipulated Stannis (and you know, some of the horrible stuff she did). But they are basically the perfect literal representation of the seductiveness of religion and magic.
Yep they definitely fit those themes, I just dislike their smugness. It was nice seeing Melisandre questioning her beliefs after Jon's death.
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Can someone explain to me what Littlefinger's plan actually was? Legitimately asking. He threw Sansa to the wolves and just disappeared without accomplishing anything. In the books, his plan made actual sense which involved him marrying Sansa to get her Stark Name as well as manipulating the Vale Lords to amass his army. Here he just threw his one good bargaining chip to the Boltons and got nothing out of it.
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he wanted to form an alliance with the new warden of the north roose bolton.
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Yeah, show littlefinger is a mess. I kind of wanted briene to end him and be done with it. They did it with Doran and True Euron, not this.. Victarion Lite.
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! I don't care whose idea it was, time paradoxes as a viable thing in any fantasy story is dumb as all fuck. Even the best sci-fi writers who dedicate entire works to exploring the concept as a central focus struggle to create anything satisfying.
! Time travel always ends up being bullshit, when it tries to follow its own rules. It's fine in small doses like this, but I hope they don't delve too much into the concept. That being said, that was super sad. Try not to cry.
! [hide]Also, it's awesome to see Varys being thrown off, although I hate these priestesses.I'm someone who often times hates stories with time travel, because the rules get all fucked up and when they do things against the rules they create, it bugs the crap out of me. (I love Chrono Trigger/Cross of course)
But so far, GoT makes sense. Hodor's mental state had already been created, which implies that no matter what, Bran was going to cause his future state when he traveled to the past. This implies that every change he is going to cause has already happened, which to an extent, is a firm concept and rule to time travel, of the possible ones.
And with what theories have now been created from this:
[hide]-Bran is going to build the wall, and be 'Bran the Builder', aka the man known for building the wall.
-Bran is going to be the voices that The Mad King hears, and he will hear the cries of someone saying to burn the White Walkers… leading to The Mad King shouting to burn his people.[/hide]It makes sense. Now, they could easily throw a curveball and make a story change that undos everything, which would suck, but for now, just ride the rollercoaster. Let's hope it doesn't make any unwanted turns.[/hide]
@TLC:
Can someone explain to me what Littlefinger's plan actually was? Legitimately asking. He threw Sansa to the wolves and just disappeared without accomplishing anything. In the books, his plan made actual sense which involved him marrying Sansa to get her Stark Name as well as manipulating the Vale Lords to amass his army. Here he just threw his one good bargaining chip to the Boltons and got nothing out of it.
[hide]I've never liked Littlefinger, so this hasn't really bothered me much. However, it's possible that Petyr is using this as a way to bring down the Bolton's. But that's a huge bargaining chip to throw…[/hide]
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Littlefinger's plans all ultimately serve his only real goal: to prove that he's the smartiest smart guy to ever smart and that everyone else is a big dummy
He's like the Riddler, but in politics.
@Insider2000:[hide]
-Bran is going to be the voices that The Mad King hears, and he will hear the cries of someone saying to burn the White Walkers… leading to The Mad King shouting to burn his people.[/hide]! That's not happening. Aerys II's madness was a family thing (centuries of inbreeding before the Targaryen's even got the throne will do that, though Aerys II's father and grandfather weren't from inbred parents and Aerys' II himself was not inbred) that surfaces now and again. See: Viserys.
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We know how the mad king goes mad. It involves kidnapings and paranoia, the burnings start well beyond the madness.
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[hide]I'm someone who often times hates stories with time travel, because the rules get all fucked up and when they do things against the rules they create, it bugs the crap out of me. (I love Chrono Trigger/Cross of course)
But so far, GoT makes sense. Hodor's mental state had already been created, which implies that no matter what, Bran was going to cause his future state when he traveled to the past. This implies that every change he is going to cause has already happened, which to an extent, is a firm concept and rule to time travel, of the possible ones.
And with what theories have now been created from this:
[hide]-Bran is going to build the wall, and be 'Bran the Builder', aka the man known for building the wall.
-Bran is going to be the voices that The Mad King hears, and he will hear the cries of someone saying to burn the White Walkers… leading to The Mad King shouting to burn his people.[/hide]It makes sense. Now, they could easily throw a curveball and make a story change that undos everything, which would suck, but for now, just ride the rollercoaster. Let's hope it doesn't make any unwanted turns.[/hide]
[hide]It "makes sense" outside of the fact that it's a paradox (random time travel that isn't paradoxical doesn't bother me in the same sense). But the paradoxical nature is what's so stupid. It's fun when not meant to be taken seriously (OoT and the Song of Storms, say) but in a plot-heavy fantasy drama, to suddenly wrap history into a paradoxical ball is extremely unsatisfying to me.[/hide]
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yeah, I'm farily certain the whole time travel thing will become even more important to the future narrative of the show. Also, I think it's more likely that the three eyed raven made the mistake of trying to talk out the mad king but ended up fucking things up. Which is why he tried to teach bran the dangers of meedling with the past. I'm not sure how I feel about it in the future of the show, but I'm fairly certain GRRM will keep it to a minimum and not actually have huge implications and change things out on a whim. So I think he pulled it off well with Hodor. IT was something destined to happen, so nothing was convulted and nothing violated rules.
With that said, the writers fucked up the north because they screwed over littlefinger. Lol atrocious writing. They are basically dorning like half the storylines here, like the yara now has enough support to flee even though he became king.
They wanna dumb down littlefingers storyline by appealing to mass audience and having sansa take two storylines at once, instead of introducing a fake arya which littlefinger sends to ramsey.
Fairly certain in the book he'll become warden of the north.
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@Cyan:
! That's not happening. Aerys II's madness was a family thing (centuries of inbreeding before the Targaryen's even got the throne will do that, though Aerys II's father and grandfather weren't from inbred parents and Aerys' II himself was not inbred) that surfaces now and again. See: Viserys.
We know how the mad king goes mad. It involves kidnapings and paranoia, the burnings start well beyond the madness.
[hide]Not my theory, but I didn't know that either. Wonder if we'll get to see him, though.[/hide]
[hide]It "makes sense" outside of the fact that it's a paradox (random time travel that isn't paradoxical doesn't bother me in the same sense). But the paradoxical nature is what's so stupid. It's fun when not meant to be taken seriously (OoT and the Song of Storms, say) but in a plot-heavy fantasy drama, to suddenly wrap history into a paradoxical ball is extremely unsatisfying to me.[/hide]
[hide]But a paradox hasn't happened yet. A paradox implies that time travel has happened and altered the current timeline, shifting it from what it's supposed to be or would be. Hodor was made to become Hodor, unfortunately. His change wasn't a paradox.
So far, GoT is implying that time travel doesn't change anything, as time is linear and any changes that are attempted to be made have already happened and truthfully changes nothing other than what ultimately happens anyway.[/hide]
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For what it's worth, the Three-Eyed Raven is a Targaryen bastard and is the last guy who would meddle with his family's history of batshit.
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so the mad king was hodor'ed by bloodraven as well?
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No. That's just a theory that hasn't really been thought out very well for the reasons already given.
Also like Insider say's I don't think there's a paradox as long as Bran can't change the present by changing the past.
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[hide]But a paradox hasn't happened yet. A paradox implies that time travel has happened and altered the current timeline, shifting it from what it's supposed to be or would be. Hodor was made to become Hodor, unfortunately. His change wasn't a paradox.
So far, GoT is implying that time travel doesn't change anything, as time is linear and any changes that are attempted to be made have already happened and truthfully changes nothing other than what ultimately happens anyway.[/hide]
[hide]It's definitely a time paradox. Bran wouldn't have made it to the Three-eyed Raven if not for Hodor, but Hodor would not have been with Bran if Bran hadn't warged into him and screwed him up in the past. The past and future are co-dependent on each other so it's a chicken and egg problem.[/hide]
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[hide]It's definitely a time paradox. Bran wouldn't have made it to the Three-eyed Raven if not for Hodor, but Hodor would not have been with Bran if Bran hadn't warged into him and screwed him up in the past. The past and future are co-dependent on each other so it's a chicken and egg problem.[/hide]
a paradox is an inconsistancy or rather an impossibility. If one were to prevent any of these events it would create a time paradox. Which is why all these events needed to happen exactly as they occured.
Now that this is a thing we'll see how he carries out. But highly doubtful this will have a huge influence on who sits on the throne. It's not a hax power.
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a paradox is an inconsistancy or rather an impossibility. If one were to prevent any of these events it would create a time paradox. Which is why all these events needed to happen exactly as they occured.
Now that this is a thing we'll see how he carries out. But highly doubtful this will have a huge influence on who sits on the throne. It's not a hax power.
A causal loop falls well within the definition of a time paradox. This is practically the definition of a causal loop. If you're arguing otherwise you're delusional; if you're making a semantic argument then you're wasting my time.
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A causal loop falls well within the definition of a time paradox. This is practically the definition of a causal loop. If you're arguing otherwise you're delusional; if you're making a semantic argument then you're wasting my time.
! I don't think it's a paradox because it doesn't really change anything. It just gives us the reason Hodor only says Hodor but we can't say for certain that the the events of the episode only took place because he was Hodor'd. Say he wasn't Hodor'd at all ever. We don't know where he might have ended up but it's possible he could have ended up in the same situation. He doesn't end up in that situation only because he got Hodor'd. He could very well have not been Hodor'd, ended up there, and still held the door. Also it's not as if Bran knew this event was coming so he didn't travel back with the purpose of creating a protector for that one moment. Same goes for Hodor. He had no idea his Hodoring was linked to the event that took place. So there's no clear cause>
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! but we can't say for certain that the the events of the episode only took place because he was Hodor'd. Say he wasn't Hodor'd at all ever. We don't know where he might have ended up but it's possible he could have ended up in the same situation.
! I disagree. A hell of a lot that happened revolved around that, and a hell of a lot would be different without current Hodor. Even if Bran still SOMEHOW ended up more or less where he is, a lot of events would have been different. Also that would still imply that there was some theoretical "first" time history played out, with unharmed Hodor, and that at some point Bran fucked up history and then it started cyclically repeating itself. The whole altering the past thing completely necessitates the concept of multiple timelines and all that crap. Now I'm just waiting for Bran to go back to the past and stop HIMSELF from doing things.
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! I disagree. A hell of a lot that happened revolved around that, and a hell of a lot would be different without current Hodor. Even if Bran still SOMEHOW ended up more or less where he is, a lot of events would have been different. Also that would still imply that there was some theoretical "first" time history played out, with unharmed Hodor, and that at some point Bran fucked up history and then it started cyclically repeating itself. The whole altering the past thing completely necessitates the concept of multiple timelines and all that crap. Now I'm just waiting for Bran to go back to the past and stop HIMSELF from doing things.
! Different doesn't mean a paradox though. It's only a paradox if Hodor only ended up holding the door because Bran hodor'd him. Realistically Hodor could have died several times on the journey and even could have been killed by the wights before he even made it to the door. He could have been killed by Theon or tripped over a bucket or something. Nothing that Bran did was inherently responsible for how things ended up it effected it yes but without a clear cause> <effect loop="" i="" don't="" see="" it="" as="" a="" paradox.="" more="" like="" spicing="" up="" the="" past.="" <br="">If I time travel back to 1643 and punch a guy in the face that doesn't mean I've created a time paradox even if I later encounter that person's descendant and we fall in love or something. There's not a cause></effect>
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! Different doesn't mean a paradox though. It's only a paradox if Hodor only ended up holding the door because Bran hodor'd him. Realistically Hodor could have died several times on the journey and even could have been killed by the wights before he even made it to the door. He could have been killed by Theon or tripped over a bucket or something. Nothing that Bran did was inherently responsible for how things ended up it effected it yes but without a clear cause> <effect loop="" i="" don't="" see="" it="" as="" a="" paradox.="" more="" like="" spicing="" up="" the="" past.="" <br="">If I time travel back to 1643 and punch a guy in the face that doesn't mean I've created a time paradox even if I later encounter that person's descendant and we fall in love or something. There's not a cause></effect>
Most of my post was an "even if" scenario. Because I disagree with you. It's a huge fucking deal that directly made everything that happened actually happen.
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Most of my post was an "even if" scenario. Because I disagree with you. It's a huge fucking deal that directly made everything that happened actually happen.
I would call it a paradox only if Brann can actually change something later on. For now all it means is that Brann cannot actually change the past he is just part of it.
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I think the number of possible outcomes where Hodor ends up there at that moment doing that thing because he was Hodor'd is greatly outnumbered by the possible outcomes in which anything else happens to him because he was Hodor'd.
I don't think that's perspective either but yeah. We disagree.
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That's not how it works… it would be more like things being predestined. History would repeat itself the same every time. Unless it was the very FIRST time it happened, which would imply some alternate timeline in which the same result occurred in the end despite Hodor being normal. After that first time though, it becomes a closed loop. A paradox because Bran is affecting his own past, but he has to live through that past before it can be affected. But whatever, I'm done arguing this. I don't feel like anyone has the slightest grasp of time paradoxes or surrounding concepts, and it's pointless.
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Or maybe we have a really solid grasp on the concept. It's not a paradox because it doesn't effect the timeline that Brans is living in. He hasn't changed his future. A paradox would occur if a future event requires a past event in order to exist but in creating the past event you change the future to the point where you could never have known you were supposed to go back and change it in the first place. That is the paradox. Knowledge or action that requires information or objects that no longer exist because you've changed the future that they would have come from. The non existence of information or objects is the paradox.
That's not what happened though. There is no loop. There's not even a U-turn or something. Brans and Hodor's timeline are completely intact. There simply exist no future where Hodor was never Hodor'd.
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I have a grasp of enjoying a story and for the first time in a while GoT has managed to affect me emotionally. That's pretty much all I care about. I'm pretty certain the concept will be the same in the books and people have been putting that together way before this episode. Which I'm cool with. I don't expect Bran to be changing anything beyond the timeline we've been following all this time. He's gonna be responsible for setting things into motion in the past. Oh, and possibly whisper to people standing near Weirwoods.
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Do any of you know except for Foolio know what a paradox is? A time loop BY DEFINITION is a paradox. An oroborous with no possible beginning or end. Do none of you watch Doctor Who? You can not care about how silly the whole thing is but it is inarguably a time paradox.
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Yeah yeah, time loop, event witch its cause is its consequence. Swords without hilts and all that. Getting angry at the show that can't do little finger rigth for doing time travel is like getting mad at your dog for not doing your taxes.
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@TLC:
Do any of you know except for Foolio know what a paradox is? A time loop BY DEFINITION is a paradox. An oroborous with no possible beginning or end. Do none of you watch Doctor Who? You can not care about how silly the whole thing is but it is inarguably a time paradox.
What happened in this episode is definitely a Paradox.
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http://www.rottentomatoes.com/tv/game-of-thrones/s06/e05/
Looks like the critics didn't care about time paradoxes. ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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I understand that it's a personal opinion but what is it about time travel that you don't want to see in a fantasy setting? Is it the breaking of established/inherent rules?
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People keep talking about time travel, but this was already established in the books to a lesser extent. Bran was able to view time through the weirwood network. He was also able to whisper things to people through it. This is why the north pray in front of the trees and sometimes get whispers. In the first book of the series, Ned heard a whisper from the tree but thought it was the wind. In dance with dragons, we see that it was actually Bran who tried to talk with him and Ned reacted to it.
Also Bran CAN warg into things while viewing stuff from the tree.
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@TLC:
Do any of you know except for Foolio know what a paradox is? A time loop BY DEFINITION is a paradox. An oroborous with no possible beginning or end. Do none of you watch Doctor Who? You can not care about how silly the whole thing is but it is inarguably a time paradox.
we get it, you're smart, you know definitions of things but…
it really doesn't matter what bran did... imo. because he didn't do it on purpose, and as taggerung said, willys could've died the same way EVEN if he wasn't hodor'd. so we have no way of knowing if what bran did actually influenced the timeline or altered it.
so maybe let us wait this discussion out untill we see more of him actually altering the timeline? -
I don't care about the time paradox stuff. I could sorta get behind it even in Futurama with the I'm my own grandpa thing. The paradox and wtfs of time travel didn't make me enjoy this episode any less.
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We could talk about how bad of an idea it was for Tyrion to officially link Dany with religious fanatics.
Or what Dany is going to do with an entire Dothraki horde.
Or how creepy it is that Mormont can't take a hint and how the show is rewarding his obsession with Dany mistaking it for actual love.
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or… we could talk about how we were shown a close up shot on a man's genitals (possibly with warts on it) for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
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or… we could talk about how we were shown a close up shot on a man's genitals (possibly with warts on it) for absolutely no reason whatsoever.
It's the same as seeing tits in almost every episode for no reason whatsoever.
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No, its very different reasons, both having to do more with human condition than the plot of the series.
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actually yeah there was a reason, it was a funny scene. i like those tidbits of comedy the writers sprinkle in the series. makes it less gloomy.
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I understand that it's a personal opinion but what is it about time travel that you don't want to see in a fantasy setting? Is it the breaking of established/inherent rules?
Well remember that I'm talking about paradoxical time travel. If someone wants to time travel just to romp around for fun then I don't have an inherent problem with it. With that in mind, for me it's simply that it's a really weak, unsatisfying plot device. At its worst it's a lazy, super cheap cop-out for why things happen. At best it's just something that doesn't really make sense (hence the paradox part), which is frustrating here since it's a world so driven by political intrigue and plotting and scheming and wars and alliances and outcasts struggling to survive. Suddenly the future is affecting the past and it makes everything pre-determined and leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
So yeah aside from comedy / something not meant to be taken seriously, or a work whose purpose is to explore the nature of time, I consider it automatically bad writing.
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So Hodor was robbed of his childhood, abused as a slave/pokemon during adulthood and ultimately sacrificed by Bran cause he's "the chosen one"? How is this even remotely touching?
I'm probably missing something because people seem to be cool with it, but if not then that little shit just became my most hated character in the series. Not love to hate like Cersei, just hate hate.
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It's tragic, not touching.
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Bran didn't realize until the last minute what his warging was doing to Hodor, and when he does realize what he's done he's clearly horrified.
The lesson here is never warg while also logged on to weirwood.net.
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It was an accident, except when he wargs him in the present to move stuff and kill stuff. It's sad because it's a tragedy. He removed his ability to choose, while him being Hodor saved him both from the war of the 5 kings and theon's invasion (if hodor had the wits of a normal person he would have been killed then and there just because how dangerous he might be).
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Yeah I think Bran just didn't know what he was doing. Bloodraven sure didn't allude to that sort of possibility because the ink is dry, but apparently you can actually affect the past
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Bloodraven can't warg, so he probably didn't know you could glitch the past like that.
On that note, RIP Brynden Rivers. You were an asshole in life, but less of an asshole as a tree person.
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Wait, Bloodraven can't warg?