Rare: We should have scrapped Kameo

GuetaMinute

_Xbox 360 launch game Kameo: Elements of Power should not have been released, developer Rare has admitted.

Speaking in an interview with Edge, creative director George Andreas said, "I was on that project from start to finish, so it's quite painful to talk about it in some ways.

"It started as a GameCube project, and it was actually one of the games we demoed at E3 along with the hardware. And then it jumped from GameCube on to Xbox. We changed direction slightly because of the new audience we were trying to aim at.

"We called Kameo an elf, but really she was a fairy," he continued. "We tried to disguise that a few times, but it didn't really work out. It was a game with a fairy for an audience that likes shooting and killing things.

"In hindsight it probably would have been best to scrap everything and start again."

Indeed. Eurogamer's Tom Bramwell gave it 5/10 when it eventually launched in 2005.

Andreas also revealed that Rare still receives hate mail from Nintendo gamers to this day. The developer was once owned by Nintendo, for whom it made GoldenEye 007, Banjo Kazooie, Perfect Dark and Donkey Kong 64, but was bought out by Microsoft in 2002.

"[The Microsoft deal] happened relatively quickly. It was generally supported company-wide as well. No one was that unhappy that we'd gone with Microsoft."

Design head Gregg Mayles added, "We got [angry] letters every step of the way. Once they got email, it was like opening the floodgates."

"We still get them now," said studio head Mark Betteridge.

Rare's next title is Kinect Sports for Xbox 360, out on 10th November._

me thinks there should be a random videogame articles thread like the one in General Discussion

RuNa

Rare should receive hate mail.

Pretty much every game they've made since the move has been terrible.

Cyber-Robin

@RuNa:

Rare should receive hate mail.

Pretty much every game they've made since the move has been terrible.

I was gonna say this. But then failed to remember what games they'd made except for Banjo.

GuetaMinute

Nuts and Bolts was fairly decent. The whole vehicle idea was shit but was executed better than I thought it would have.

I still think the Nintendo fanboys who still send Rare hate mail to this day are fucking pathetic.

Sorry mods, 500error caused me to fuck up somehow and create a second thread.

Gekko135

I remember when Rare stopped making games i'd play.

deltabrain

Isn't a 5 out of 10 a ok/goldilocks game, not to bad but not that good and I do know people that want a sequel.

Hiroy

I don't think it's completely Rare's fault but more of the lack of freedom they had after they were bought out. M$ got them on lock. I heard they could not even continue Conker due to them not being approved to do so. Pretty damned sad.

I'm no Nintendo fan but ever since the move, their games under MS weren't as good due to the attempts to appeal this audience that would not even buy into their games.

Nobodyman

@Cyber-Robin:

I was gonna say this. But then failed to remember what games they'd made except for Banjo.

How about Conker's Bad Fur Day.

Jet Force Gemini

Perfect Dark

Battletoads

Goldeneye

Oh, and of course, Donkey Kong Freaking Country.

Insider2000

@RuNa:

Rare should receive hate mail.

Pretty much every game they've made since the move has been terrible.

But…but...but...but.....Viva Pinata is wonderful!

GuetaMinute

@deltabrain:

Isn't a 5 out of 10 a ok/goldilocks game, not to bad but not that good and I do know people that want a sequel.

Sure, if you have no standards whatsoever.

A 5 in most, if not ALL gamers' view: Shit. There's no way around it.

A 6 is bad
7 is mediocre
8 is ok
9 is great
10 is OMGWTFBBQAMAZING (except GTAIV).

Apparently some people don't realize this is NOT how I necessarily view game ratings. It's how most gamers generally see ratings as.

Darkstorm

@GuetaMinute:

Sure, if you have no standards whatsoever.

A 5 in most, if not ALL gamers' view: Shit. There's no way around it.

A 6 is bad
7 is mediocre
8 is ok
9 is great
10 is OMGWTFBBQAMAZING (except GTAIV).

Those scores only equate to those meanings if you're a third rate hack reviewer like ign or gamespot or something.

GuetaMinute

@Darkstorm:

Those scores only equate to those meanings if you're a third rate hack reviewer like ign or gamespot or something.

Not saying everyone SHOULD think like that but so far that's the way I see gamer's general meanings in most gaming sites/forums.

Case in point: MoH got a 6 today at IGN. I know, it's IGN, but them.. giving a decent ('m sorry but I still see 6 as bad, which I know is just stupid) score to a first-person military shooter..? That's saying something.

I wish I were a kid again when I would buy the crappiest game I could find yet without any idea of what I'd be playing and have fun with it since I had no understanding of what separated the good from the bad.

Cyber-Robin

@Nobodyman:

How about Conker's Bad Fur Day.

Jet Force Gemini

Perfect Dark

Battletoads

Goldeneye

Oh, and of course, Donkey Kong Freaking Country.

Sorry. I meant I couldn't remember what they'd done after the buyout.

Darkstorm

@GuetaMinute:

Not saying everyone SHOULD think like that but so far that's the way I see gamer's general meanings in most gaming sites/forums.

Case in point: MoH got a 6 today at IGN. I know, it's IGN, but them.. giving a decent ('m sorry but I still see 6 as bad, which I know is just stupid) score to a first-person military shooter..? That's saying something.

I wish I were a kid again when I would buy the crappiest game I could find yet without any idea of what I'd be playing and have fun with it since I had no understanding of what separated the good from the bad.

I always read reviews when I was a kid since nes games were so damn expensive I could only get around 3 new ones a year. Reading reviews by decent people meant I played awesome games like little nemo and castlevania 3.

The standard of online gaming journalism is so bad it's unreal. These days the only opinions I give any weight are edge/gamestm/gamecentral.

Silence

little nemo was the booooooooooooooooooooooomb

Airflow

I stopped caring about Rare after they released Goldeneye.

JERK DISEASE

You best not be badmouthing Goldeneye.

Last great Rare game was Banjo Kazooie.

Jet Force Gemini was good but had awkward as hell controls.

Donkey Kong 64 was the official end of non-Mario 3D platforming for being a giant souless collectathon.

And Perfect Dark is the most overrated game ever made not named Tomb Raider.

Airflow

nah, I'm saying Goldeneye was the last Rare game I cared about (and I cared about it a fuckload). Perfect Dark was kinda average, never played Conker's Bad Fur Day and after that what do we have?

Viva Pinata?

Perfect Dark Zero (ugh)?

JERK DISEASE

Banjo Kazooie came after Goldeneye and it kicks ass.

deltabrain

@GuetaMinute:

Sure, if you have no standards whatsoever.

A 5 in most, if not ALL gamers' view: Shit. There's no way around it.

A 6 is bad
7 is mediocre
8 is ok
9 is great
10 is OMGWTFBBQAMAZING (except GTAIV).

What is the point of rating something out of 10 if you treat a game rating as grading a school test.

Also a question: has anyone here played Kameo?

Nobodyman

@JERK:

Donkey Kong 64 was the official end of non-Mario 3D platforming for being a giant souless collectathon.

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what exactly was wrong with DK64? I thought it was a great game. Was it a collecting game that borrowed from Mario 64? Yes, but so was Banjo Kazooie. Was it as good as Banjo-Kazooie? No, not really, but I still thought it was good.

GuetaMinute

@deltabrain:

What is the point of rating something out of 10 if you treat a game rating as grading a school test.

Also a question: has anyone here played Kameo?

You completely missed the point.

In fact, it looks like you didn't even read my post.

deltabrain

@GuetaMinute:

You completely missed the point.

In fact, it looks like you didn't even read my post.

I was referring to the reviewers and fans who treat anything below a 7 as a really bad game.

I know the problem is more from the fans then the reviewers but its still a problem. Even the article that started this thread used a 5 out of 10 as proof that the game should not have been made.

Airflow

But we don't deliberately buy average game. If you had a choice between a game that you think you'd really like and a game you think you'll kind of passively enjoy, you'll go for the form. We buy games that appeal to our sensibilities and games that intrigue us, not games that function in their genre without excelling in anyway.

Number reviews are stupid if it's from a single reviewer and not based on a general consensus. "This game is 8.7 and this game is 8.8! My super duper reviewing skills can differentiate how good a game is to a 0.1 scale factor!" The guy can't tell you why a game is 0.1 points higher than another, he just pulled some numbers out of his ass based on a gut feeling that one is slightly better than the other and because he has a deadline to meet.

Basically reviews should explore the pros and cons of the game, not quantify them based on some illogical system.

GuetaMinute

Which is why I generally tend to trust the out of five system more than the point one.

Robby

Play Magazine doesn't even give number scores anymore, they just give pros and cons.

But then, Play was always incredibly fluffy, enthusiastic and generous with their reviews anyway. And they actually give games to reviewers that are interested in those genres. It was rare that anything scored less than an 8 with them, and 10s were really common. They have a different philosophy there.

I haven't read it in about 2 years, but that was certainly the case then.

Greg

HEADLINE!

NEWSFLASH!

UK!

RARE apologizes for shitty game no one played!

developing…

BHK3

I'll give a shit about rare when they make another conker.

RPGJay

I have to agree with Rare when they should've scrapped Kameo. Not because it's a bad game persay, but Rare seemed to half-ass the project. Afterall, it started development as a Gamecube title, then an Xbox title, before finally hitting stores as a 360 game.

It's a shame really. I do agree Rare has declined in quality in recent years, but it's not Microsoft's fault (except for a Conker sequel they won't allow).

And I still don't get what the hate is about over Banjo Kazooie Nuts N Bolts. It may not be the typical Banjo game and the game everyone was waiting for, but it's one of the most innovative platformers I've played since in a long time.

Besides, it still has that awesome Banjo humor and music.

@Nobodyman:

I know I'm going to regret asking this, but what exactly was wrong with DK64? I thought it was a great game. Was it a collecting game that borrowed from Mario 64? Yes, but so was Banjo Kazooie. Was it as good as Banjo-Kazooie? No, not really, but I still thought it was good.

The problem was it was too big of a collect-a-thon. Often for items you will never/seldom use.

Here's all the items you can gather I can remember:

Golden Bananas

Regular Bananas (each a different color for each Kong. Found in single, bunch, and balloon varieties)

Ammo

Homing Ammo

Crystal Coconuts

Orange Grenades

Banana Coins

Rainbow Banana Coins (gives like 5 coins for each Kong)

Banana Film

Banana Faeries

Rareware Coin

Nintendo Coin

K.Lumsy Keys

Battle Arena Crowns

DK Coins (during special stages)

Not to mention each Kong can receive a standard move, a powered move that used up a crystal coconut, a barrel ability, and a pad ability. Not to mention you can unlock JetPac and the original Donkey Kong 1981.

In my opinion it was an alright game, but dear god I'm not ever playing through adventure again.

fedcom

@deltabrain:

I was referring to the reviewers and fans who treat anything below a 7 as a really bad game.

I know the problem is more from the fans then the reviewers but its still a problem. Even the article that started this thread used a 5 out of 10 as proof that the game should not have been made.

No, the problem is with the reviewers.
If they give a truly horrible game a 6/10, fans will look at all other 6/10 ratings from websites as evidence for a truly horrible game. And then…scores like 7.5/10 get put on average or middling games, instead of the 5/10 you would expect.

Also, as Airflow says, no one wants an average game. When you're spending so much money, you'll want some bang for your buck. So people will tend to look favourably only towards the outstanding game scores.

And then suddenly developers have to get a 9/10 on IGN or whatever or else no one will buy their game.

Nobodyman

@RPGJay:

snip

Yeah, I will grant you that there were way too many items to collect. If they had toned down the item-collecting and backtracking a bit it probably would've been something really great. Even so, I enjoyed the game.

But that fucking beetle race. Ugh.

Sakonosolo

I sometimes wake up in a cold sweat with the words "Rare, how could you?" on my lips. Never really played 007 but I fucking loved DK64. And I've begun to love Banjo Kazooie as well. I need to get the ROM and play it some more.

MetaMario

@Nobodyman:

Yeah, I will grant you that there were way too many items to collect. If they had toned down the item-collecting and backtracking a bit it probably would've been something really great. Even so, I enjoyed the game.

Agreed. So much stuff to collect…..it certainly was no Banjo-Kazooie (awesome game btw), but I liked it.

Sadly, I never got the chance to play Conker's Bad Fur Day. I heard great things from that game.

Sakonosolo

I couldn't get past the farm level of Conker. There's another game I need to get a ROM for.

RPGJay

@Nobodyman:

But that fucking beetle race. Ugh.

Ah the Beetle race.

Game designers, hell is a real place you will go for making such insane difficulty in seemingly simple levels.

@Sakonosolo:

I couldn't get past the farm level of Conker. There's another game I need to get a ROM for.

Out of curiosity, did you play the N64 version or the Xbox remake?

Sakonosolo

N64. I ordered it in the early 2000s I think, not sure when it came out. I didn't go anywhere near the Xbox remake.

KaizokuFan22

@Nobodyman:

How about Conker's Bad Fur Day.

Jet Force Gemini

Perfect Dark

Battletoads

Goldeneye

Oh, and of course, Donkey Kong Freaking Country.

Donkey Kong 64 was a Rare game too..one of the best games the company made.

Snake rattle and roll was by Rare too

KzTxL7

@JERK:

And Perfect Dark is the most overrated game ever made not named Tomb Raider.

Really? I always thought it was overshadowed/overlooked because people would instantly head straight towards Goldeneye 007. I thought it was an alright game.Not "HOLY SHIT AMAZING", but did provide the family/friends with good times just like 007, and they at least had decent sims (sometimes) to provide some entertainment when alone.

But overrated? Where the hell are these people who praised the game that much?

But when I picked up Zero, I just did not feel it nearly as much as I did the original.

RPGJay

@Sakonosolo:

N64. I ordered it in the early 2000s I think, not sure when it came out. I didn't go anywhere near the Xbox remake.

Ah, just curious. And good job staying away from the remake.

@KaizokuFan22:

Donkey Kong 64 was a Rare game too..one of the best games the company made.

Snake rattle and roll was by Rare too

Donkey Kong 64 was an enjoyable and funny game for it's time. Especially since it introduced (and was packaged with) the N64 expansion pack, which would later be used in more notable games (Majora's Mask for example).

But one of the best Rare has made? Not a chance.

Trust me. It has not aged well.

And you're not helping your case with Snake Rattle n Roll either.

Robo Gorilla

Do you mean "rumble pack"? Not "expansion pack". N64 had one of the weirdest controllers I've seen.

RuNa

@Robo:

Do you mean "rumble pack"? Not "expansion pack". N64 had one of the weirdest controllers I've seen.

No, expansion pak. It increased the RAM from 4mb to 8mb.

Rumble pak was introduced with Starfox 64.

stephen

the horrible truth is finally revealed:

Rare: We should have scrapped Grabbed by the Ghoulies

MarcelloF

I liked Kameo.. Can't say I liked all of Rare's games after the buyout, but I did like most of them. Not nearly as good as the games they made for Nintendo, but they were fun.

Hiroy

I love Perfect Dark. I can't really say it's overatted since it's lesser known but multilayer had a ton of customization for some fun matches. I also liked alot of the missions in campaign, though the enemies could either range from stupid to cheap as fuck(instantly spawning behind you). The Ghost in the Shell atmosphere was also nice too.

With that siad, I also loved Goldeneye. I never played the actual story mode since I never owned it, but I sure did spend time playing it with friends. I personally liked the weapons better in Perfect Dark however. Nothing is more satisfying than setting up Laptop Guns, and Dragons and seeing friends or AI fall for it.

Kaiolino

DK64 will in my memory always be one of my favourite childhood games and it will forever stay that way since I'm never going to replay it and ruin that memory.

I never finished the game though. I quit after I had to collect the Nintendo and Rare coin though, since back when I was eight years old, I was too shit a gamer to beat the original Donkey Kong.

RPGJay

@Kaiolino:

I never finished the game though. I quit after I had to collect the Nintendo and Rare coin though, since back when I was eight years old, I was too shit a gamer to beat the original Donkey Kong.

Dude trust me, it took me years to get the Nintendo coin because you have to beat the first four levels of Donkey Kong without losing a life.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't blame you.

On the other hand, the Rare coin was relatively easy to get.