I don't drink a ton and I try not to drug anymore, but to not enjoy going to a party or the bar every once in awhile with your friends and ham it up? jeez!
LGBT members on the forum?
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I'm still young yes but I'm not a lightweight. I didn't start drinking this year. Not that that's anything to be proud of, once again, but I know my limits and I can actually control myself. I'm the friendly, affectionate, loquacious kind of drunk but I've never done anything stupid, really. And at that party I mentioned, most were buzzed yes but some were still completely drunk. I remember seeing these 3 clowns barf into a bucket in front of everyone (they were seniors I was still a junior) and I was a bit buzzed already by then so I was kinda laughing my ass off at that. Of course there also comes violence and shit when some get too drunk they become these giant assholes or the other way around: some idiot is annoying everyone and eventually someone will knock his ass out. I saw this a week ago. Dude was drunk but he was the only one drunk at the party. Apparently he convinced a friend to pass him homework answers through facebook for like 10 dollars or something. He never paid him so the dude asked him "Where's my money". Dude was so drunk he told him he'd never pay him and the other dude just knocked his sorry ass out. Dude was lying on the ground for 15 minutes.
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I don't drink a ton and I try not to drug anymore, but to not enjoy going to a party or the bar every once in awhile with your friends and ham it up? jeez!
I'm sorry, but I will just never understand how those things are "fun".
I always end up feeling awful when I'm around so many… "party people".
I've long since vowed, "never again".EDIT: Also, I don't have very many friends who I can hang out with.
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It's probably just me, but it is very interesting to see other people's take on this subject. The partying I mean.
For so long, the word partying only gave me shivers and unpleasant thoughts because of what I heard from classmates and such. I guess there are tamer parties that might fit me, although I don't know how I'm going to find those. It's still a little far away, considering I'll never go with my classmates so I have to wait for university.
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Gotta agree with zephos, drinking with a small group of really close friends is the best.
I have to admit though that sober sallies can really put a damper on things sometimes. Which is why, we don't pressure anyone to drink or anything (it's a recipe for puking), but we try and limit our gatherings to like-minded people. -
I am not into parties unless there is established common interest and reason for hanging out
When I was in San Francisco my roommates were all graphic artists with jobs at like Zynga or Playdom or Gaia Online (to any critics of these vehicles, you may be surprised to learn that yes, the real people behind them can actually know a fuckton about art and games) and knew the invited people from work or the field, so parties tended to eventually turn into everybody drawing together and showing their stuff. And since they were fucking so serious about their field that they had a career in it, they all on a universal level tended to be pretty talented.
Because they're artists and artists who work with games, they tended to also actually like that stuff so we'd play Street Fighter or co-op vide games too
And since visual artists tend to be interested in other arts too, sometimes there are musicians as well so we can all jam
If you're an introvert, the chances are that your personality type still enjoys being around someone in an intimate environment– the arts and entertainment are always great grounds for it. I never had to talk to these people really, just draw or play music for a long time.
To take it a step further, since it was my field specifically, I've also had "parties" populated entirely by musicians which can be basically not only something I adore, but want to be around. You'd have a lot of people just drinking and eating, but eventually groups start forming where whoever's house we're at will bring out instruments (everybody always has several guitars– I'm a cellist and I HAVE several guitars) or maybe they brought their own. People will watch a jam session, join in, leave it, make others
By the peak of the night segregated groups have formed of like, a few people playing blues in somebody's bedroom, some jazz shit going on downstairs in the living room, maybe stuff outside too. And the best part about a party environment? If you see three people or more together, you're free to hang around them. In a party, it's NOT crazy to just walk up to a group of people and sit down. It's really a refreshing environment.
And you know what? I am not some super talkative person. I think carefully when I speak and I speak very methodically and slowly (lotsa pauses too), so I'm not some super chatty person who loves being around strangers. But I love being around art and meeting artists becomes fun because of it.
I think unless you have just that kind of personality type where you're so introverted you legitimately have no interest in other people (and I'm not talking about SHYNESS, shy people can still wanna hang) then there is a type of party for you
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I don't drink a ton and I try not to drug anymore, but to not enjoy going to a party or the bar every once in awhile with your friends and ham it up? jeez!
i haven't done karaoke in over a yearrrrr i feel like im dying….
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It's probably just me, but it is very interesting to see other people's take on this subject. The partying I mean.
For so long, the word partying only gave me shivers and unpleasant thoughts because of what I heard from classmates and such. I guess there are tamer parties that might fit me, although I don't know how I'm going to find those. It's still a little far away, considering I'll never go with my classmates so I have to wait for university.
This is more normal than people are giving you credit for I think. It's fine. I was this way too for the longest time.
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I will have all of you resoundly beat in January when I go to an island full of old world Greeks.
yeah yer dumb frat boy parties are cool or wahatever, but thats PUSSY SHIT.
wait till your surrounded by stout extremely hairy men singing in wild foriegn tongues and doing crazy dances while cool folk music plays!!! fuck u i WIN, OPA MOTHEFUCKER--- Update From New Post Merge ---
this is yer farty party music
this is gona be mine
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The closest thing to parties, that I actually enjoy, are local punk/folkpunk shows. As long as I'm with people I know.
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zephos if I send you my bouzouki will you promise to practice it so when you go get drunk you don't look like a loser who isn't capable of being cool
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@The:
zephos if I send you my bouzouki will you promise to practice it so when you go get drunk you don't look like a loser who isn't capable of being cool
i recently discovered that i think chrissie is obscenely cute when holding a guitar or guitar like object, so that will be her role in things
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@Monkey:
i haven't done karaoke in over a yearrrrr i feel like im dying….
You better be being serious, cuz this is a good example. If you haven't chilled at a bar and sang stupid 80's and 90's karaoke with your best buds and made asses of yourselves, while the one girl in your group who's amazing at singing blows away the crowd and you cheer her on through the whole thing.. well, then you're missing out.
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You better be being serious, cuz this is a good example. If you haven't chilled at a bar and sang stupid 80's and 90's karaoke with your best buds and made asses of yourselves, while the one girl in your group who's amazing at singing blows away the crowd and you cheer her on through the whole thing.. well, then you're missing out.
fucking lol at how true that part is
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I'm taking my cousins who are over from Italy to some karaoke soon, it'll be a mind-blowing experience for sure
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@Monkey:
fucking lol at how true that part is
Seconded. Although I have two. One of them doesn't like to brag about it while the other is always singing trying to remind everyone else how shitty their voices really are. I can sing a bit.
If you guys were Mexican you'd also have that one friend that can sing boleros and Jose Jose tracks perfectly.
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I went to LGBT youth group today, and my friend gave me this AWESOME back patch~!
Here it is in its beginning stages:
!
Now, it's written in purple and green, which is my favorite color combo. So I'm stoked!
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That's… interesting lol
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I went to LGBT youth group today, and my friend gave me this AWESOME back patch~!
Here it is in its beginning stages:
! http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m74ykt7oCi1qhetqvo1_500.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m75xjhvvYI1qhetqvo1_500.jpgNow, it's written in purple and green, which is my favorite color combo. So I'm stoked!
So either you're strongly opposed to the members of the British Commonwealth or you think non-transgender people should die.
Cool tat lol! I'd be stoked too! -
I only recently learned what CIS is. It's sorta funny, but there's a lot of stuff in my life I never thought I would learn about. But then again I've done a lot of things I hadn't thought I'd do, like ever. Been a strange few years.
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I went to LGBT youth group today, and my friend gave me this AWESOME back patch~!
I find it a very noble goal that you fight an early stage of cancer, however those 'scum' cells can't read.
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@Monkey:
So either you're strongly opposed to the members of the British Commonwealth or you think non-transgender people should die.
Cool tat lol! I'd be stoked too!How many cis people each year, do you think are actually killed for being cisgender? Or kill themselves because they can't bear the pain of identifying with their birth sex? Could it be that you're cis yourself, and that's why you're so concerned? It's alright, there's no shame in it.
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Cissexual? What? Man, what's with all the sexuals.
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How many cis people each year, do you think are actually killed for being cisgender? Or kill themselves because they can't bear the pain of identifying with their birth sex? Could it be that you're cis yourself, and that's why you're so concerned? It's alright, there's no shame in it.
Could it be you're a petulant child who would make a juvenile eye rolling mess of any issue or any thing to which you belonged or associated with? Why yes, it could be.
There's an issue of hatred out there I'm much more concerned about than you're inane little tattoo, but little inane moments do bother to remind me why it's going to be so much tougher to get a 20% back together with an 80%, inane little idiots clog up every peace process. -
This is precisely why I hate the whole need to categorize people by groups. Leads to issues like basing your identity so strongly on that label that anyone outside of it becomes just an image and something that's ok to attack.
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I stand by the notion that we're all people.
And should treat each other as such.
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Okay, now that I understand what cissexual means, how does that solve anything? Hate does not beget hate.
But then again, I guess my opinion doesn't matter because I'm cissexual too. So I get to oppressed by you for being cissexual, and I get to be further oppressed for being homosexual. Glad we all win in this fight. Solves so much.
Wake me up when humanity doesn't piss me off.
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Noqanky said it right. Fuck all these sorts of labels.
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I was a little relieved when I found out that I'm not the only one who didn't know what cissexual meant. So it's basically people whose biological and inner gender is the same? So the opposite of transsexuals?
It's getting rather confusing to me to be honest. So many words, so many definitions…Noqanky is right, all these labels are not helping. At all. Especially for people who are unsure about themselves (like I am to some degree).
EDIT:
@TheCrystalShip:http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ucdaWm171qczqtfo1_500.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ucdaWm171qczqtfo2_500.jpgWhat is the purpose of this?
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DIE CIS SCUM is one level of fucked up, expecting us to be as enthused as you are is an entirely higher level of fucked up
This thread is just senseless hostility now. More and more people have been falling into this trap, it's sad to watch really.
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@Uncle:
I stand by the notion that we're all people.
And should treat each other as such.
This is by far the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
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@Monkey:
i haven't done karaoke in over a yearrrrr i feel like im dying….
We gotta go to one together sexy. You'll die at how insanely off key I can get without much effort. I am a natural as my students can tell you! :D recalls all the times through the year, her 3-year olds covered their ears with their hands during her singing
How many cis people each year, do you think are actually killed for being cisgender? Or kill themselves because they can't bear the pain of identifying with their birth sex? Could it be that you're cis yourself, and that's why you're so concerned? It's alright, there's no shame in it.
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ucdaWm171qczqtfo1_500.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5ucdaWm171qczqtfo2_500.jpgThe fuck is this new shit?
DOWN WITH THE LABELS! DOWN WITH THE MORONS WHO MAKE THEM AND SUPPORT THEM!!–- Update From New Post Merge ---
I went to LGBT youth group today, and my friend gave me this AWESOME back patch~!
Here it is in its beginning stages:
! http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m74ykt7oCi1qhetqvo1_500.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m75xjhvvYI1qhetqvo1_500.jpgNow, it's written in purple and green, which is my favorite color combo. So I'm stoked!
This is simply sick btw. Disgustingly sick. Wishing death upon a group of people because of their sexual orientation, religious beliefs, gender, race, political views or whatever, is just sad. So fucking blinded by one's own insecurities and self-hate.
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calling people cisgender is a good idea and anyone who disagrees doesn't get it tbh
it's either that or call it "normative gender" which isn't healthy
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@The:
calling people cisgender is a good idea and anyone who disagrees doesn't get it tbh
it's either that or call it "normative gender" which isn't healthy
Not the issue here lol.
I dunno, maybe it's my extremely right brained mind but it seems the ultimately healthier route is labeless. In the sense that people can just do whatever without a need for taxomony. Like a world where a dude can put on a skirt cuz why not and no one cares so much or whatever. And Nolus can throw on her jeans and cap without being chased down by gender Hussars. But I see how it helps people in the current situation.Though like does cisgender apply to a gay dude who acts "masculine"? Like Bob Mould? Kind of interested in that.
Like the broiest bro the worlds ever seen, except he likes men, what is he.This is simply sick btw. Disgustingly sick. Wishing death upon a group of people because of their sexual orientation, religious beliefs, gender, race, political views or whatever, is just sad. So fucking blinded by one's own insecurities and self-hate.
CrystalShip, if you do reply eventually, you can throw calls of "you have no idea", "it doesn't effect you", and "boohoo unopressed" at most of us. Not that it will change anything, but you could do that, ad hominem or no it fits most of us yes.
But not this girl. If she is telling you her opinion on labels and hate, you don't tell her shit. She has an idea, it does effect her, and aside from being female in a fairly conservative location there are other reasons she has quite "the idea". -
What I suggest is dropping the labels all together. Labeling people one way or another just seems offensive to me and doesn't even give the chance to the world to unify. Making new ones simply creates more strife and separation between the labelled 'groups' like it always has. It's simple and there's no reason to making up more words to make things even more complicate. In this case, there are two genders and you are whatever the hell you want to be through your behavior. The body is just a temporary vessel, and though it's a part of one's identity, it doesn't actually have to define it. By calling one cisgender or transgender, you are giving the power to one temporary thing, to define who you are and you are giving that same power to strangers who don't really know you. What I am trying to say here is that, a human being is way more complex than that, to be categorized by one stupid, made-up label word or two.
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I went to LGBT youth group today, and my friend gave me this AWESOME back patch~!
Here it is in its beginning stages:
! http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m74ykt7oCi1qhetqvo1_500.jpg
http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m75xjhvvYI1qhetqvo1_500.jpgNow, it's written in purple and green, which is my favorite color combo. So I'm stoked!
So you…..want me to die because I'm not gay/trans/etc. ?
Straight answer please, no elaborate thesis.
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@Monkey:
Not the issue here lol.
I dunno, maybe it's my extremely right brained mind but it seems the ultimately healthier route is labeless. In the sense that people can just do whatever without a need for taxomony. Like a world where a dude can put on a skirt cuz why not and no one cares so much or whatever. And Nolus can throw on her jeans and cap without being chased down by gender Hussars. But I see how it helps people in the current situation.because that kind of ideal world is cool and all, but it's not something that happens just by going "hey let's not 'label' anything", but I guess you get that if you're saying current situation.
Like if the status quo is that only a minority presents behaviour and identity that goes against perceived normalized behaviours, then it's not like one is labeling themselves and causing damage by raising awareness, or speaking out, or giving their identity a name. Like a lot of people who aren't transgender or anything still can get tons of flack, from small jokes to major hurt, when they don't adhere to some strictly defined binary of gender ideas. I'm not saying they don't know what it's like to be put down on. But that's the current state of things. This is some huge ass majority and it is reinforced day in and day out by media, by parents, by teachers, by institutions, by fucking everything
So please
I love you guys but
Don't tell me to just wake up and not call myself transgender or something as if it is an inconvenience (example: if somebody has some issue being called cisgender do you have a problem with me "transgender"?), or causing some kind of problem. Don't act like I am "labeling" things and causing some kind of problem for not wanting to sit and be silent about what I am. Because saying "man who needs labels" may as well be saying "why don't you just be quiet and hope eventually people will stop treating you like garbage". There are masses of disillusioned queer people who hate the world back, but the solution is not to just erase identity. Call it awareness, if it helps
But I am some kind of motherfucking Love machine, probably more than a lot of people on this forum can even comprehend, even if they are under the impression that they 'love all human life' or something. So it's not like I don't long for some Unified Peace Planet. But I am 100% certain that giving counter-"norm" behaviours and identities names is not a problem as far as the current state of the world is concerned.
You can live your life by a philosophy that you don't want to give your identity a Name or something. There are a lot of queer people who are 100% about that. But they can very well still be oppressed and marginalized as human beings at the end of the day so it's not like No Labels is instantly a magic solution in this day and age, as far as it "helping" goes. For a lot of people, calling awareness to their more fluid life or orientations helps centralize and ground their experiences. It helps them get by certainly.
This is a difficult subject to write a big all encompassing response to because there are very good answers to very specific questions that can all meet the same end, but whose answers can quite differ.
It gets more complicated (I don't actually think it's complicated, but I mean as far as singular repsonses goes) when you work under my philosophy that Binary Gender alone is a bad idea to work with
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And for the record, cisgender is very simple and TRANSGENDER is a lot more encompassing as a basically "everything else".
It's not a monochromatic Opposites situation, like somebody earlier was believing
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@Monkey:
CrystalShip, if you do reply eventually, you can throw calls of "you have no idea", "it doesn't effect you", and "boohoo unopressed" at most of us. Not that it will change anything, but you could do that, ad hominem or no it fits most of us yes.
Sorry, sorry
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I use labels, I use Cisgender for example… but CrystalShip's "Die" message was like... um, ok... no... I tink that's horrible.
I think the people who are defending the use of the term Cisgender are missing the point. The image posted says "DIE CIS SCUM".
I think the "Cis" part isn't the problem, it's the "DIE SCUM" part, which was horrible.
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I have no issue with the label of 'cissexual'. I see cissexual having a similar meaning as heterosexual, homosexual, or transexual (EDIT). I think even in a perfect world without oppression, we'd still use labels, not to offend or oppress each other, but to identify who we are. ~If I'm interested in guy, I'm going to ask if he is homosexual, in hopes of getting with him.
I do, however, have issues with the usage of labels to oppress ANYONE: heterosexual, homosexual, transexual or cissexual. I do not find that to be a solution. I find it to be part of the problem. In the homophobic world, we already have people feeling that the 'horrible homos are trying to take over and no child is safe'. Turning around and saying, "Down with heterosexuality" or "Kill heteros" is only going to confirm their fears and ruin everything for everyone. Same goes for cissexuality.
And even if it is a joke, it's not a good one. I'm living in a country where we have a Batman movie with a villain named Bane, and at the same time, people are making waves about Mitt Romney's company: Bain, thus leading people to the conclusion that the Dark Knight Rises is a conspiracy movie against Mitt Romney. People are stupid. They're not going to read this joke and take it lightly.
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Editted the second line. That came out wrong. I'm sorry.
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but the solution is not to just erase identity
I never said to erase your identity. Identity is something that I strongly support and endorse which is WHY I am against labels. See, a label puts you in a group of people with certain characteristics, yes? What happens when you have characteristics from two 'opposite' labels? What happens if your characteristics are from all over the place? What that makes you then? I find both cisgender and transgender equally unequal (see wut I did there durr hurr) like several other labels, because adopting either one of them is as if you are stripping yourself from the right of enriching your identity with other characteristics because they belong to another group or something. Labels are too limited for the unlimited possibilities that exist out there for one. I find labels restricting freedom of identity which is a human right. Like is happiness. And labels more often than not, cause misery and I am saying that from experience.
Who told you that having no labels on you, silences you about who you are? On the contrary! It gives you more voice to shout out who you are, what you are and where you are heading. Saying you're transgender tells me next to nothing about who or what you are. That gives me an empty fancy word that doesn't describe the real and whole Holy. Our past interactions and conversations do. What I am trying to say about labels, is that they are… too limited to be fair for any human being out there. Categories that are disconnected by other categories and stand alone. They are so simple they actually make things complicated imo. It's not enough to use one to describe one's identity. They are too poor. You can describe your identity using a various of words that stand alone without carrying an entire group of characteristics/stereotypes with them. That I agree with. But I just can't agree with misusing labels for insulting, discriminating and lumping together a bunch of different people who share one thing. And really, have you ever met a man or a woman who are 100% a man or a woman?In gender studies, cisgender ( /ˈsɪsdʒɛndər/) and cissexual are a closely related class of gender identities where an individual's gender identity matches the behavior or role considered appropriate for one's sex.
I honestly have never met in my entire life, a single person who is like that. And I was raised in a traditional Cypriot family which speaks volumes about the role a woman and a man has to adopt in this closed society.
Also take me for example. I am a girly girl you could say. I like my jewelry, my skirts, I am shy at times, I giggle etc etc. But I am also loud, can be extremely aggressive, swear like hell and a bunch of other things that are socially accepted as male behavior. Does that make me transgendered?(Transgender ( /trænzˈdʒɛndər/) is a general term applied to a variety of individuals, behaviors, and groups involving tendencies to vary from culturally conventional gender roles.)
Transgender definition says it does. I say it doesn't. So where do I belong? These labels throw me at the sides, right into un-categorized set of behavior patterns or something. If someone asks me what I am gender wise, why should I need to offer more explanation than what I feel? Woman or Man? Why would I have to explain myself to them by picking one fancy label that explains the general air of my situation? I shouldn't have to and you shouldn't have to. If you feel like a man, then say you are a man and if you feel like a woman, then say you are a woman. If you feel like both, then bloody tell them both. If you feel like nothing of the two, then tell them just that.
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I was gonna ask what you guys thought of Tumblr's ~social justice allies~, transtrenders, genderqueers, and the like, but it looks like you already got to it.
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I love Tumblr…
Tumblr's world of social and moral debates is..... just...no...
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Oh god Chrissie I'm kind of torn on if I even care anymore to take myself from being really busy to talk about this (I can do short answers maybe??) and I didn't expect it to go this direction, but it's a good launching point for feminist theory if anybody else wanted to take it up too
But anyways. Weeell you're sort of doing a mixup with gender identity and gender roles with its respective expressions, and stereotypes. Do you follow?
Like, not adhering to norms is not necessarily trans, if your identity is a woman and your biological sex is too– regardless of how you define yourself, whether or not you think it's important. When transsexuals adhere to a strict binary it can reinforce stereotypes, but I don't think that's what you're getting into.
I am gonna give you a particularly overly simplified answer here. Like… a binary system is hard to squash out. People will not instantly stop using pronouns like "him" or "her" if their language is built around this. The reason a lot of transgender people tend to be "either or" on whether they identify as "male or female" (there are still lots of queer people who don't) is that it's easier to work with, as far as what they are comfortable being called and the degrees people can not match up with gender roles is also a big kicker.
Also, be aware that gender roles do loosen up over time, as far as personality goes honestly. Like I don't think having a backbone is any sort of conflict with one's gender and biological identity. There's a reason why sex roles and gender roles are not the same thing, although maybe by that point people just don't care if it doesn't affect them in their day to day lives
Like as far as the grand scheme of my life is concerned, I fluidly went in and out of being a "man" and a "girl" in the eyes of the world around me and that's basically a form of trans, if you get the gist of what I mean by the all encompassing factors of both 1) how everything around you perceives you, 2) how you perceive yourself and 3) how you want to be perceived
There. I think I got it? Like I said I'm kind of multitasking here and I keep editing and coming back to try to elaborate more clearly
Not that anybody should care what others think, but it's a part of the big Gender equation you know?
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
I was gonna ask what you guys thought of Tumblr's ~social justice allies~, transtrenders, genderqueers, and the like, but it looks like you already got to it.
It's garbage
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@The:
Oh god Chrissie I'm kind of torn on if I even care anymore to take myself from being really busy to talk about this (I can do short answers maybe??) and I didn't expect it to go this direction, but it's a good launching point for feminist theory if anybody else wanted to take it up too
Really busy? Puh-lease! Take your time to reply :U I don't mind if it takes you a week as long as I see your perspective of things clearly.
But anyways. Weeell you're sort of doing a mixup with gender identity and gender roles with its respective expressions, and stereotypes. Do you follow?
Yes aaaand no. :U I kind of had connected gender roles to gender identity (you know feeling like one gender and acting according to it) but I suppose they don't really always go hand in hand. Stereotypes though stem from variant labels, don't they? They are the usually negative result of labeling which is one of the main reasons I dislike labels so much since stereotypes lead most of the time to hostility between two different groups.
Like, not adhering to norms is not necessarily trans, if your identity is a woman and your biological sex is too– regardless of how you define yourself, whether or not you think it's important. When transsexuals adhere to a strict binary it can reinforce stereotypes, but I don't think that's what you're getting into.
I am gonna give you a particularly overly simplified answer here. Like… a binary system is hard to squash out. People will not instantly stop using pronouns like "him" or "her" if their language is built around this. The reason a lot of transgender people tend to be "either or" on whether they identify as "male or female" (there are still lots of queer people who don't) is that it's easier to work with, as far as what they are comfortable being called and the degrees people can not match up with gender roles is also a big kicker.
What do you mean by there are lots of queer people who don't? That they identify with both genders equally and thus don't particularly feel as either a woman or a man? In such cases I can see how the label can be useful since it's used in such a way that it doesn't bring harm to the people they belong to it but helps them have an easier time with how a third person perceives them.
Also, be aware that gender roles do loosen up over time, as far as personality goes honestly. Like I don't think having a backbone is any sort of conflict with one's gender and biological identity. There's a reason why sex roles and gender roles are not the same thing, although maybe by that point people just don't care if it doesn't affect them in their day to day lives
Like as far as the grand scheme of my life is concerned, I fluidly went in and out of being a "man" and a "girl" in the eyes of the world around me and that's basically a form of trans, if you get the gist of what I mean by the all encompassing factors of both 1) how everything around you perceives you, 2) how you perceive yourself and 3) how you want to be perceived
There. I think I got it? Like I said I'm kind of multitasking here and I keep editing and coming back to try to elaborate more clearly
Not that anybody should care what others think, but it's a part of the big Gender equation you know?
Of course gender roles loosened up over time, but they are still going on very strong in Cyprus. Trust me when I say Gender labels turn into discrimination rather quickly over here and cause trouble and much misery to the people who get labeled without asking for it and are just trying to fit in and live their lives like they want. I suppose I forgot how culturally different the two countries are and that people in your areas need less protection than here. Labels in Cyprus are usually a very dangerous thing considering the nature of the society here. It's not even from the Orthodox Religion being dominant here. We're super relaxed and chill with our religion. It's more like… the set gender roles are expected to be adopted without second thought or consideration by the respective biological gender else you bring shame to the family or something. Setting a label (cisgender) that describes just that, aka following your biological gender's rules, will only ask for more hatred and violence directed to the label (transgender) that says you do the opposite. Here it's better that you avoid to set a label on someone, just accept them like they are and let them be. It got way better than it was before, but it's still not at a good idea to play with labels in a country where they might decide how you'll be treated by others. Be who you want to be without challenging them and you'll be fine.
In short, I can't wait to get the hell out of here as much as I love my country. :P Cyprus just makes me a bit extra hateful and stressed about things that might lead to discrimination towards fellow people..
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I guess the difference is between labeling someone as different in an effort to margianalize or discriminate against them, and then giving name to an identity that belongs to a minority that they themselves is margianalized. Like as far as calling someone cis or trans goes, it's pretty helpful in gender theory and understanding other people.
I'm not really super American though tbh. Like I wasn't born here and I've only lived here half my life, though the other half is divided between several other countries. At its core I've lived here the longest so I guess I am American, but I've never really been instilled any kind of values or attachment on a national level. Makes this kind of thinking more difficult for me, as far as what part of me is reflected on where I'm from. The different places I've lived have certainly given me different vibes on comfortability with being myself, though.
I always just feel foreign wherever I go :B
What do you mean by there are lots of queer people who don't? That they identify with both genders equally and thus don't particularly feel as either a woman or a man? In such cases I can see how the label can be useful since it's used in such a way that it doesn't bring harm to the people they belong to it but helps them have an easier time with how a third person perceives them.
Ahhh, well some people just don't feel like having a binary (that is man or woman) makes sense to them when it comes to gender, only biological sex, and they just outright escape that structure. Like, they don't feel there are two genders, just ideas instituted by society that dictated the behaviour of someone's sex that don't make sense otherwise in this day and age.
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I use labels, I use Cisgender for example… but CrystalShip's "Die" message was like... um, ok... no... I tink that's horrible.
I think the people who are defending the use of the term Cisgender are missing the point. The image posted says "DIE CIS SCUM".
I think the "Cis" part isn't the problem, it's the "DIE SCUM" part, which was horrible.
Yeah p much, the other thing is an interesting debate, one of the ones you learn from talking about. Whereas that was just garbage that needed to be tossed.
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@The:
I guess the difference is between labeling someone as different in an effort to margianalize or discriminate against them, and then giving name to an identity that belongs to a minority that they themselves is margianalized. Like as far as calling someone cis or trans goes, it's pretty helpful in gender theory and understanding other people.
My two cents. I'm a bit extreme on this.
Whether for good or bad intentions, when you create a label you create a group, and with any of that go stereotypes. Sadly, it just happens. This weird, abstract reality of what represents that group forms and all of the sudden it's all that people actually see.Then you have shit like polls saying being this means you like this, or prefer that, or will vote this way. Not to mention public images that develop thanks to the media …
And when it comes to that perspective that it makes easier to study those people, I find it worse than anything. So people who've studied latino literature and immigration know who I am? Fuck no they don't. So people who've studied left-handedness can tell me I'm more creative and likely to be crazy? Fucking bullshit. And now they've decided that they need to classify bigenderism as a mental condition and study it so that they can know what being me is like. But FUCK NO they won't. They'll never know. The people who should give a fuck about what being me is like, and the ones who will really come close to knowing, are my family, girlfriend and friends and I like it that way.
You will NEVER understand other people like that. You can read books, talk to people, have discussions, and interact with particular people, and then you'll have a solid idea of what that particular person feels and thinks. Can you read several books about homosexuals and realize you now understand the homosexual experience? No, I don't think you can. Sure, study the culture, but acknowledge it's just the culture you get and not the people in the group. Especially because maybe not all people in that group according to you actually find themselves part of that group.As far as I know, people are people, and as long as you respect the happiness of others while in your effort to achieve your own, you can do whatever the fuck you want. And if you think it helps you to give yourself a label to define your own particular group because you're proud of that, because perhaps you find the desire to have that be a chief definition of your identity, then great. AS LONG AS THAT LABEL IS SELF-IMPOSED. I'm ok labeling myself as bigender if it helps others feel like they're not alone in experiencing some confusion or worry or thoughts.
But then when you decide to start grouping other people as well, to "study" them, and assuming they're all in the same boat, then that's when ingroup and outgroup mechanics start coming into place and then you got the same bullshit that takes over politics and religion. In other words, the bullshit that leads to polarized societies, a divided humanity, hate and war. It leads to the stupid belief that we're grouped together in anything beyond all being human and deserving happiness. Slippery slope? Maybe, but it just fucking annoys me to death that people don't realize that we're all in the same boat and we learn more by studying and analyzing ourselves than by putting other people and their cultures on the operating table to see what we can dissect.Again, if I'm rambling about something that's not even related to what you're talking about, then I apologize, but I read that paragraph and these are the thoughts that erupted. Also, it's not a question of "I think you're wrong," but one of "this is what I believe and why."
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Again, if I'm rambling about something that's not even related to what you're talking about…
Oky dokey
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I think one of the problems with labels, and challenging them, is that there is no one general perception of any given label. Ironically enough, challenging the notion of labels would be generalizing the notion to a set of specific, negative characteristics and, in and of itself, be a hypocritical statement. (All labels are bad. Dur hur, general statement.)
And I'm not just saying this to be cute and try to tiptoe around the matter, I actually just spent some time trying to figure out who's side of the argument I support and ended up thinking outside the labels associated with gender, but also those labels associated with race or any other difference in characteristic or lifestyle. Earlier I said that we're all people and should treat each other as such, but I mean this more as a form of philosophy that we should all follow. It's an idealism that, in all honesty, isn't realistically obtainable in the world we live in today. Though following the philosophy and passing its teachings can help the world to reach that ideal.
Back in the real world, labels exist and either aren't going away or already carry meaning. This is where I think the perspectives diverge, since one might believe that discrimination against a group through use of a label and gender identity are the same thing when it just isn't. You can't just make the assertion that the use of a label is a purely negative act or an act of which carries negative connotations outweighing positive ones. The trick to reaching the ideal of "we're all just people and that's all cool" is to change the definitions of a label from whichever negative connotations it held to something that empowers the group.
Although with gender I think it's a little more complicated because the person in question might also just have a need to find who they are and a group that they can readily… I guess I'd say "associate with" but I can't figure out a word that means "talk to and that person actually gets it... with". It very well could be that a given group assigned the label to themselves in order to alleviate their feelings of isolation versus society's pre-established norms.
Either way you look at it, labels are a lot more complicated than solely as a means of negative discrimination.
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@Uncle:
Earlier I said that we're all people and should treat each other as such, but I mean this more as a form of philosophy that we should all follow. It's an idealism that, in all honesty, isn't realistically obtainable in the world we live in today. Though following the philosophy and passing its teachings can help the world to reach that ideal.
Back in the real world, labels exist and either aren't going away or already carry meaning. This is where I think the perspectives diverge, since one might believe that discrimination against a group through use of a label and gender identity are the same thing when it just isn't. You can't just make the assertion that the use of a label is a purely negative act or an act of which carries negative connotations outweighing positive ones. The trick to reaching the ideal of "we're all just people and that's all cool" is to change the definitions of a label from whichever negative connotations it held to something that empowers the group.
Not that this applies to the gender thing in this thread, but I think it's worth realizing that this does work out the other way around where labels dredge up in fairly neutral territory, labels not so much built on reality until people put stock in them after some persuasive individual or another comes along.
This is maybe more a problem in Europe, Eastern Europe in particular to understand where Chrissie or Nolus is coming from. The idea of label as incindeary weapon concocted against reality is foreign to us Americans. But it does exist. While it doesn't so much apply at all here for LGBT, you really shouldn't talk or think about being anti-label as naive or utopian.
In other circumstances outside North America it really really really really really isn't.And for this I regret chasing out Igalsfy.
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@Uncle:
I think one of the problems with labels, and challenging them, is that there is no one general perception of any given label. Ironically enough, challenging the notion of labels would be generalizing the notion to a set of specific, negative characteristics and, in and of itself, be a hypocritical statement. (All labels are bad. Dur hur, general statement.)
And I'm not just saying this to be cute and try to tiptoe around the matter, I actually just spent some time trying to figure out who's side of the argument I support and ended up thinking outside the labels associated with gender, but also those labels associated with race or any other difference in characteristic or lifestyle. Earlier I said that we're all people and should treat each other as such, but I mean this more as a form of philosophy that we should all follow. It's an idealism that, in all honesty, isn't realistically obtainable in the world we live in today. Though following the philosophy and passing its teachings can help the world to reach that ideal.
I explained the reason I personally find the use of labels offensive earlier, but here we go again in case you skipped over it:
@Chrissie:Of course gender roles loosened up over time, but they are still going on very strong in Cyprus. Trust me when I say Gender labels turn into discrimination rather quickly over here and cause trouble and much misery to the people who get labeled without asking for it and are just trying to fit in and live their lives like they want. I suppose I forgot how culturally different the two countries are and that people in your areas need less protection than here. Labels in Cyprus are usually a very dangerous thing considering the nature of the society here. It's not even from the Orthodox Religion being dominant here. We're super relaxed and chill with our religion. It's more like… the set gender roles are expected to be adopted without second thought or consideration by the respective biological gender else you bring shame to the family or something. Setting a label (cisgender) that describes just that, aka following your biological gender's rules, will only ask for more hatred and violence directed to the label (transgender) that says you do the opposite. Here it's better that you avoid to set a label on someone, just accept them like they are and let them be. It got way better than it was before, but it's still not at a good idea to play with labels in a country where they might decide how you'll be treated by others. Be who you want to be without challenging them and you'll be fine.
In short, I can't wait to get the hell out of here as much as I love my country. :P Cyprus just makes me a bit extra hateful and stressed about things that might lead to discrimination towards fellow people..
And just an extra info bit since that was purely for gender labels: Yes, Cyprus is also one of the most racist countries you can find yourself into. You can't believe the shit I myself get for having a foreign boyfriend. Even from friends who behind my back said things along the lines 'What, she couldn't find a Cypriot guy so she had to go for a foreigner?' with quite hateful tones I was told. Also I've had friends that looked at me with pity or annoyance when I spoke of that said boyfriend, not even bothering to hide either. Let me not even start on my family trying to change my mind at first. So no. It's not 'naiveness' or 'hypocrisy' that makes me find 99.9% of existing labels negative. It's experience. I might change my opinion for them when I see a different use for them in the USA, but for the time being I am sticking by what I think. The cultural difference between my country and the USA is quite enormous, don't forget that. We are speaking of a population of 800000 here. A very closed community where everyone knows everyone. Literally. So if one person or a few get singled out and labelled, most of the time it's not for their own good. Imagine that at a time people for some reason had labelled me 'virgin' in Elementary School, a non-offensive label basically that especially in elementary school, shouldn't have any special meaning cuz y'know…that's what we all were then lol! Yet they used it with the purpose of hurting me and making fun of me and it worked since they were supposed to be my friends. And they did it because I had rejected the newcomer in the school who had asked me out. I refused to do something all the other girls were into doing and I got punished for it. It has always been like this in Cyprus. You do something the society that surrounds you with doesn't agree with, and you get labelled and tossed aside until they decide to grace you with their acceptance again when they deemed you suffered enough for your 'wrongdoings'.