Just like Michael Keaton?
The only thing I have to say, is that I doubt I cared about it at the time I watched it:
Evidence:
!
I haven't watched that movie since then. Watching a quick clip it is apparent that Michael Keaton's scenario was focused on comedy, while BvS…well, that was just savagery.
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Just like Michael Keaton?
Or anything by Frank Miller…..when he's not making him treat Dick Grayson Aged 12 like shit.
I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting
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@K.:
The only thing I have to say, is that I doubt I cared about it at the time I watched it:
Evidence:
I haven't watched that movie since then. Watching a quick clip it is apparent that Michael Keaton's scenario was focused on comedy, while BvS…well, that was just savagery.
Which one was for comedy? When he blew up an entire factory full of joker's minions? Or when he threw the guy down the 30 story stairwell? Or when he killed the Joker?
–- Update From New Post Merge ---
So how is the Flash in the movie? Entertaining? Annoying? Deep? Boring? Inexistent?
The question is for those who already saw the movie not for the opinions of third parties reviewers.
Saw the movie, and I found him funny and entertaining. He's the audience window into the movie.
My quick review: this is my 2nd favorite DCEU movie behind MoS. I'll probably be in the minority but that's fine with me.
The Bad: Plot is a bit of a mess, the villain is bad, up there with Malekith from Thor the dark world. There is some noticeably bad CGI too.
The Good: The Justice League itself is great. The cast had great chemistry, the lighter tone worked, the humor worked for the most part. Aquaman, Flash, and Cyborg were introduced very well and the movie left me wanting to learn more about them. Overall the best thing I can say about this movie was that it was fun. The fun I had outweighed my issues with the film.
Oh and the 2 post credit scenes…..hands down the best Post credit scenes of the year. I think everyone will like them.
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The fact that the movie seems to be at least entertaining and the characters are fun to watch immediately makes me want to give it a chance. I can overlook a weak plot if I'm well-entertained, I admit it. And a part of me does want this to finally succeed, because, just like with Suicide Squad, the characters are mostly well-casted and I feel like the actors deserve to portray these characters again with better material.
Which one was for comedy? When he blew up an entire factory full of joker's minions? Or when he threw the guy down the 30 story stairwell? Or when he killed the Joker?
None of those. The one that Batman straps a bomb to a goons waist, punches him into the sewers and it explodes.
!
The point I was making that I haven't watched those movies since I was 4. I do not remember ANY of the scenes, to the point I had to search: "michael keaton batman kills". My issue with Batman killing applies to all media where he shows up. The old, new movies.
!
I can find them entertaining, I am not a fan of BvS but I would watch again if I had nothing else to do. The topic of Batman killing directly, indirectly is something that has been discussed to death and as Green_vs_Red mentioned, Frank Miller has done it as well. The latter is built upon on how Batman has spiraled down. There is thematic meaning in why Batman has become like that. I could maybe even overlook seeing the Dark Knight kill during his first year as a vigilante. He has less experience. Personally, I have always loved the representation on how Batman struggles to not break his one rule.
We could argue that BvS also had reasons for Batman to change. With the reveal that Robin had already been murdered. The key difference between Frank Miller's rendition and BvS is that in the former, Alfred was not around anymore, and Bruce was considerably older than in BvS. Batman being alone for a long time is what drives him further into this dark place.
! On the other hand in Under the Red Hood, the same scenario is present, Todd had been murdered. Jason confronts Batman and questions why he has not killed the Joker after what he had done to him. I find this approach much enticing and shows how difficult it is for him to kill.
I have a lot of sympathy for DC fans. That just want their comics to have the same mainstream success and love that Marvel has gotten. Instead they keep just getting kicked in the balls. I can understand their frustration, especially when the media seems to bend over backwards to praise the MCU (which it mostly deserves) while DC is just a running punchline.
I get how that can start to grate after a few years.
These two things are hated?? We live in a strange world…I just watched Hook recently. It's such a charming, enjoyable film, with a pretty cool story premise and great performances by Robin Williams and especially Dustin Hoffman as Hook. Plus, the score is severely underrated.
My list was a mix of things Critics hated, and Audiences hated. Hook was an example of the former.
Or anything by Frank Miller…..when he's not making him treat Dick Grayson Aged 12 like shit.
Why do people think this? This is the justification Zack Snyder used too, and it's wrong… Even Frank Miller, whose writing has gotten awful since 9/11, never has Batman kill...
I mean, to be fair this rule is bent heavily in The Dark Knight Strikes Again since Batman seems ok with letting others kill people, but he never kills anyone himself in the book until kinda the end where...
! Drops Dick Grayson, who now has a Deadpool-like Healing factor into a volcano… but the argument could be made that he survives this because of the healing factor making this a fate worse than death.
I have a lot of sympathy for DC fans. That just want their
comicsMovies to have the same mainstream success and love that Marvel has gotten. Instead they keep just getting kicked in the balls. I can understand their frustration, especially when the media seems to bend over backwards to praise the MCU (which it mostly deserves) while DC is just a running punchline.I get how that can start to grate after a few years.
Fixed that for you. DC's comics are doing just fine. Rebirth is excellent, and Marvel can't stop doing overlapping universe-wide events that make it hard to just jump in and follow a single story.
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Actually, doing further investigation, it seems the scene that is referenced as inspiration for Batman killing in Frank Miller's comic is something that is not confirmed. He did shoot a thug, but no death was confirmed. Later on, Batman is talking about killing someone, but it is portrayed as a line he has not crossed yet. Furthermore, when the commisioner starts stating the crimes Bataman has committed, murder is not one of them. I haven't read part 3, so I am not sure how the story has progressed.
Either way, the fact that Batman uses a gun is a statement on how much he has fallen from the standards he set as he put on the cowl. However, at least in the comics I have read, he never killed anyone.
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@K.:
Actually, doing further investigation, it seems the scene that is referenced as inspiration for Batman killing in Frank Miller's comic is something that is not confirmed. He did shoot a thug, but no death was confirmed. Later on, Batman is talking about killing someone, but it is portrayed as a line he has not crossed yet. Furthermore, when the commisioner starts stating the crimes Bataman has committed, murder is not one of them. I haven't read part 3, so I am not sure how the story has progressed.
Spoiler for a decades-old comic book masterpiece almost everyone should have read by now:
! Joker wakes up in Arkham having been catatonic since Batman's initial retirement, goes on David Letterman and kills the entire audience. Batman chases him down to a carnival and they have a final confrontation in the Tunnel of Love. Joker gets his final revenge on Batman by snapping his own neck, knowing the cops will blame Batman and hunt him even more stringently.
! After this, the police say publicly they are UPDATING Batman's Rap Sheet to NOW include Murder, meaning he DEFINITELY hadn't killed anyone up to this point and we know he didn't actually kill the Joker, so…
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I own Part 1, and can never remember if I actually read part 2. The part I am missing is the one that got published not long, Master Race.
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@K.:
I own Part 1, and can never remember if I actually read part 2. The part I am missing is the one that got published not long, Master Race.
There was no Dark Knight part 2, nor a part 3. There was only one good story that Frank Miller did in the 80's.
Any claims to the contrary are part of an elaborate hoax by Linkara.
No wonder I feel like my memory draws a blank when thinking about part 2.
Honestly, Justice League was serviceable enough. It wasn’t GOOD by any means but there was an attempt to course correct. I enjoyed it more than some MCU movies.
[hide]A lot of people complaining that WB cut out 40 minutes, but it was probably for the best. The exposition was extremely clunky, and one scene was shamelessly lifted from LotR, but the plot stays on course (actually there is no plot) and there is no sidetracking into Snyderian bullshit
The humor was SO BAD. Barry is the most annoying character ever. Cyborg was bad as well, but Aquaman shows promise, even though he’s a generic bro. The scene with Mera was probably the worst in the movie though since thy dumped his entire backstory into 2 minute dialogue.
There were a lot of lingering ass shots of WW when she wore leather pants, but tbf Superman and Aquaman were shirtless for half the movie. Also Gadot looked good in those pants.
Patty Jenkins directs Gadot MUCH BETTER than Snyder and Whedon. I had to eat crow after that movie came out in how she owned that role, but some of the lines and emoting in this movie are not good.
Batfleck is the definitive Batman, even though he got punked so much in this movie that it feels like Johns ghostwrote it. Also I’m ready for WonderBats!
Steppenwolf is the worst. Special effects were bad throughout.[/hide]
Because of my low expectations, I enjoyed the movie very much. Maybe too much. Nevertheless the low scores Justice League obtained, are not justified in my opinion. Most of the reviews just try to jump on the bandwagon. It is not a masterpiece, but a solid action movie.
! They didn't earn that Booyah.
! They also are incredibly evasive about Steppenwolf's actual deal, to the point that Darkseid is only mentioned once and it's really unclear what Step's actually accomplishing.
I liked it. Don't get the critics. Sure it wasn't fantastic, but hey, I had more fun in this than in thor 1 and 2, movie, in Iron man 2, in Avengers 2, In Cap 1, in Dr Strange.
Was better than WW I thought. But then i didn't think WW was that good. Deffo better than BvS and Suicide, inferior to MoS.
! Issues? I just wish I could have sat there 40 minutes more and got to see the characters interact and be on screen longer. Like, you just know they cut apart quite a good amount of dialogue between everyone, and perhaps even some of the fight scenes. Also kinda wish they'd gone a little further in establishing the relevance of SteppenWolf's weapon, and given him more of a complex characterisation. But hey, it was fun to see him and the JL going at it, so I can't complain too much.
! Final fighting area was cheesy and lame. But exactly what I expected. Got Ultron final fight vibes, it's ALWAYS some remote place in Russia, isn't it?
! Loved Jason Momoa's Aquaman. WW was badly directed. Batman looked tired, but did his job. Flash was fun, if a bit excessively on the nose with his humour. Cyborg was good, I guess, they developed him a lot within a small amount of time. I did feel like he went from emo to happy-go-lucky Booya a little too fast though, wasn't deserved. Alfred was perfect in every way. Supes was… okay?
! CGI was better than I expected tbh. WW set my CGI expectations very low.
! Still, mine are mostly nitpicks, I thoroughly enjoyed the movie. Glad I went to see it. Hope they make more.
A meh mess anayway. I rather would have liked to see a full Zack Snyder cut of it instead. At least it would have been a cohesive vision, even if meh all the same.
It made 38 million on Friday is is projected to barely clear 100 million for the weekend
I'm excited to see it. I loved batman v superman quite a bit, though I'm a DC fanboy. I enjoy all the marvel movies a lot too. I'm not too concerned about the reviews. I thought Suicide Squad was garbage and deserved the bad reviews. WW was alright, though I saw it late after hearing it was some sort of masterpiece, and was let down. It was still a good movie, just thought the hype was undeserved.\
Is there any talk of releasing a Director's cut like batman v superman got?
I am worried about the CGI, MoS and batman vs superman had good effects, but SS and WW were hard to watch at points. I've seen clips, and Cyborg looks kinda iffy CGI-wise. I don't understand how they are screwing up with this. I know nothing of how CGI works, but one would think they'd pour enough money into it to get people that know what they're doing.
Man I want DC to make better movies. They have such good comics and animated movies, I just don't get how they keep pushing out such mediocre plots with such good source material. Zach Snyder seems passionate enough so I doubt he's half-assing it, so what's the problem?
Boy, was the CG clean shave really awkward in the first scene. I wish they had just let Cavill keep the beard and spend the time on other shots.
The fights were boring. So, so boring. Aquaman, The Flash and Cyborg are the real scene stealers for this movie. I hope they get more attention in future films. Arthur totally looks like he plays in a garage band or something, so I hope he winds up having a guitar or something in his solo film.
Cyborg was probably my favorite character in the film. Fisher's charisma was totally on point and it felt like his scenes had the most weight to them. His life was fucked, but he felt surprisingly in control of his confusion and didn't let it get in the way of him being aware.
The character camaraderie really did pick up after the farmhouse scene. Cavill basically carried the film, doing his best to make all of his scenes work and energize the film. I hope his next solo film doesn't suck and he retains that challenging edge he had in the other films, just wrapped around less boring scenes.
Danny Elfman's score made me nauseous. Zimmer and Junkie XL are terrible composers, too, but whatever Elfman was trying to do here was like a toddle hitting a toy piano to make noise. How did this shit make it through even one cut?
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At least we got a few notes of Batman ‘89.
Honestly, Justice League was serviceable enough. It wasn’t GOOD by any means but there was an attempt to course correct. I enjoyed it more than some MCU movies.
[hide]A lot of people complaining that WB cut out 40 minutes, but it was probably for the best. The exposition was extremely clunky, and one scene was shamelessly lifted from LotR, but the plot stays on course (actually there is no plot) and there is no sidetracking into Snyderian bullshit
The humor was SO BAD. Barry is the most annoying character ever. Cyborg was bad as well, but Aquaman shows promise, even though he’s a generic bro. The scene with Mera was probably the worst in the movie though since thy dumped his entire backstory into 2 minute dialogue.
There were a lot of lingering ass shots of WW when she wore leather pants, but tbf Superman and Aquaman were shirtless for half the movie. Also Gadot looked good in those pants.
Patty Jenkins directs Gadot MUCH BETTER than Snyder and Whedon. I had to eat crow after that movie came out in how she owned that role, but some of the lines and emoting in this movie are not good.
Batfleck is the definitive Batman, even though he got punked so much in this movie that it feels like Johns ghostwrote it. Also I’m ready for WonderBats!
Steppenwolf is the worst. Special effects were bad throughout.[/hide]
Common, you haven't even laughed once ? I'm not a fan of the Flash but at least I laughed when he said
! Dostoievski
! and I smiled when he was super excited about discovering the Bat-cave.
@Cyan:
! They didn't earn that Booyah.
! They also are incredibly evasive about Steppenwolf's actual deal, to the point that Darkseid is only mentioned once and it's really unclear what Step's actually accomplishing.
Well, he is just smashing the floor with his big hammer, isn't he ?
And I think Darkseid is mentioned twice (lol ?)
At least we got a few notes of Batman ‘89.
Supposedly the John Williams Superman theme was there too but god knows I didn't hear it.
@Cyan:
Supposedly the John Williams Superman theme was there too but god knows I didn't hear it.
Ah, that would be so nice. Hans Zimmer did a nice job but it was no John Williams.
lol, that's why his upper lip looked so fake. Also, they did a re-shoot for this scene ? What was the point ?
I agree about the cartoonish tone, especially the Batman scene on the roof
Maybe they made reshoots for the Superman vs the JL scene but the scene switching from night to day actually does not prove they did reshoots–- only that the CGI team switched the scene from night to day.
--- Update From New Post Merge ---
What's great with this movie is that people will maybe stop worshiping Batman and start caring about other DC super-heroes.
Seriously, BruceWayne's powers are useless in this movie, they could have called the army--- they would have done a better job
@Yuugi's:
Zimmer terrible composer, too
I'm sorry what?:blink:
I…. didn't hate this movie....
I actually liked a fair deal of it... Might be another Man of Steel as far as I'm concerned. Not a really great movie, certainly not as good as these characters deserve, but decent nonetheless.
Taking into account that this is RIGHT after his accident and being fixed up, and naturally Cyborg WOULD be a little withdrawn and sad, everyone is for the most part FINALLY in character... except Barry who is basically just Wally West with Barry's name, but I'll take it....
I'll go character by character:
Batman: Man I'm sad now that Affleck apparently doesn't want to do it, because he can play an awesome Batman with good material. He was, AT TIMES a tad too jokey, but Batman can be that way too.
Diana was just perfect. I did notice how the camera was framing her, like I noticed at least one of the upskirt shots, and the new Amazon costumes did make me roll my eyes, but Gal Gadot's acting and the things they had her say were pretty perfect. Getting Diana right is pretty consistent here and I liked it.
Cyborg is honestly how you do a "Sad Superhero Origin" story right. He was sad and mopey at the beginning of the story, but honestly had good reason to be, and then by the end of the movie he slowly opened up to the point that we got a "Booyah" from him and he fist bumped Flash despite not doing that earlier. It was a tad wonky, and I DO really wish he'd gotten his OWN movie to go through this arc, but it's nice to actually see an attempt at this kind of arc….. Now let's see if they revert him back to being mopey in the next movie for no reason like Superman from MoS to BvS....
Barry... felt like Wally... which is fine, Wally is my favorite Flash... but still... Barry isn't super jokey. He isn't Batman serious or anything, but he's supposed to be a healthy medium there. Wally is the super jokey kinda awkward one... I wonder if the writers of this used Justice League TAS as a point of reference and didn't realize that was Wally?...
Eh... it's not Barry and that makes me sad because this amalgamation means we probably won't get Wally later, but I'll take it.
Aquaman... From the trailers I was thinking he'd be the best one in the movie, but I actually liked him least. Still liked him mind, but the least. His personality seems like...
He is easily the most unlike his comic book counterpart, but TBH, Aquaman is one of my least favorite DC Heroes so I know the least about him.
Considering this is supposed to be during his "Exiled from Atlantis" phase, I get the angle they're going with him on this... However, his "Bruh" attitude ended up not playing well IMO. A lot of his quips and stuff felt forced.
But oh boy... Oh geez... SUPERMAN FINALLY FUCKING FELT LIKE SUPERMAN IN ONE OF THESE MOVIES!!!!!!!!
Based on how wierd his face looked for most of the movie... gonna say Joss Whedon is primarily responsible for this one... But Damn, I knew Henry Cavill was a good pick for Superman, just needed to get him a script that at least understands this character. That cell phone scene at the start immediately set the mood for Superman as a character in this movie, and damn it was awesome that they kept him that way the whole time through. WE ACTUALLY SEE SUPERMAN FUCKING SAVE PEOPLE IN THIS MOVIE!!! Superman (and later Wonder Woman) stops to just talk to kids and be the beacon of hope the movie keeps telling us people suddenly think of him as.
I also like how they established that Parademons are basically undead. I know they were "Alive" before in the comics thanks to Secret Six, but I am pretty sure this new "Zombie-like" interpretation is canon as of the New 52. Either way, the movie made sure to say they are made from dead people and stripped of free will. Now, nobody is breaking a No-Kill code by killing them. (The comics do this a lot. Batman has no problem "killing" robots and undead things)
As for all of the non-character stuff, the overall plot was incredibly basic, the villain was definitely the worst villain in ANY of these movies, DCEU and MCU combined, the pacing was brisk and at times, breakneck, the editing was a bit choppy as a result, and it flat out ignores inconvenient facts and plot points from previous movies in order to apply a lot of the fixes I liked in it... but overall I'm... happy with this? How did that happen?...
It's not what I'd call a good movie, more a decent movie, but I like it better than Man of Steel... I'd probably give it a 6.5/10
Gonna have more in-depth looks at the movie in Spoilers ahead because of... spoilers.
Actual Criticisms of the Film:
! - Steppenwolf was awful. I was worried this was going to be the case when we found out he was the villain, and I ended up being right. He's just… so bland, and we also now have Parademons because of him... meaning when we inevitably have Darkseid later, it's going to feel like a rehash.
! - I liked the lighter tone of the film and I liked how Superman was treated like his comic book self: loved and missed by everyone, but as a sequel to Man of Steel and BvS, it falls flat because... they still barely showed us anything to tell us WHY the world loves him. I guess dying just suddenly made the world love him? After hating him in BvS? They're also sticking with Batman's MAAAAAAAAARTHAAAAA turn completely flipping how he feels about Superman. There's a part in this movie where he's like "He's more human than you or I!" to Alfred, and it's like "Dude, you hated him and tried to kill him, then because your moms had the same name you suddenly became besties with him 5 fucking minutes before he died?!?!?!
! It would have made more sense (and actually been comics accurate tbh) if Batman was still mildly distrustful of Superman, but still wants to resurrect him because they NEED him, then have him win Batman the rest of the way over by the end of the movie. But going from hating him to the point of wanting him fucking DEAD to his biggest supporter and cheerleader felt unearned.
! - The editing was awful. I know, I know, this is REALLY all that matters and thinking the editing is bad means I hate the whole movie and... Something, but it really was bad.
It felt like whole chunks of the movie were chopped out of it, and it was distracting.
Like, I wonder if there was originally a line explaining why his Axe is important? Why did breaking his Axe make the Parademons turn on him? I actually think as a fan it might be that his Axe was Quardian in design, it glowed yellow and Batman said "Fear" controlled the Parademons? But that's me as a fan trying to come up with an explanation because the film flat out doesn't give one, and that was just sloppy.
! There was even a moment during the travel to the final Battle where... was it a mistake? They just cut to black for like 2 seconds and then the movie started back up again?
! - Sound Design was pretty bad too. I loved the score, but at times the sound effects overpowered it when they should have let the triumphant beats from the score play through. The scene during the final battle where the Batman 89 theme plays I could barely hear it. The only reason I knew it was there was because I was looking for it after I listened to the score early on Youtube.
! -The CG was also pretty awful. That's how I can tell so much of Superman was Joss Whedon... his face was uncanny valley for most of the movie... as was Cyborg for some reason... why was the HUMAN part of Cyborg Uncanny Valley?!?!
Fangirl Happy Moments:
! -BATMAN 89 SCORE!!! It was flat out used wholescale during the final battle, but the motif of that score was evident in a lot of places. I swear there were hints of the Batman TAS theme (also by Elfman) during the first Batman rooftop scene too.
! - JOHN WILLIAMS SUPERMAN SCORE!!!! I liked how it was played but off-key when the recently-revived Superman attacked the rest of the League, but then when he joined the battle with Steppenwolf we got a triumphant bite of it.
! - A GREEN LANTERN during the Steppenwolf flashback??!?!?1 They used a Construct hammer!! When they died, the ring flew off to find a new Lantern!! Want Geoff Johns penned GLCorps movie now. Give me Shane Black as director and we're golden.
! - JK SIMMONS IS A GREAT GORDON!! Oh my god yes!! We barely got to see him, but what we got was awesome! Gives me hopes for The Batman
! - Kryptonian Regeneration Matrix was called out by name as the thing they used to bring Superman back. Nice.
! - Mera!!! That was so obviously Mera in Atlantis!
! - Bruce is making the Hall of Justice!!
! - True, he didn't have much screen time, but Jesse Eisenberg pretty much got Lex right this time… no more Joker!Lex going forward hopefully
! - Deathstroke was neat, but it does make me ask a lot of questions about the end... is Luthor setting up the Legion of Doom?.... Are we gonna get solo movies before that happens?!
! - Miles Dyson created Cyborg. Ha. Cute.
Fangirl Nitpick Moments:
! (This is stuff I know I can't entirely hold against the movie itself, but as a fan these things irk me)
! - Why do the Amazons know who Steppenwolf is?… Why are the Amazons involved with Steppenwolf at all? Was that just an easy way to cut a bunch of exposition? I mean, ok... that ultimately might have been better, but still...
! - Why did Batman just let that criminal go in the beginning?... seriously, they could have even made a joke out of it, with the guy thinking he's gotten off and then Batman grabs him again or something.
! - Batman calling Alfred by his name over com was dumb. Especially because he does it RIGHT IN FRONT OF aforementioned random criminal guy. In the comics, he calls him "Penny-One" over com. Batman is a stickler in the comics about everyone only using code names while fighting crime to conceal secret identities, and that includes Alfred.
! - What... exactly... were they going for with Barry and his little Flashcave?.... The end of the movie he tells his dad he got a "Real Job"... so he didn't have a job up until then? How did he afford that computer setup, or that suit that had was made of expensive materials according to Bruce...
Overall happy with it even if it could have been so much better.
My DCEU Rankings now go:
1: Wonder Woman - 9/10
2: Justice League - 6.5/10
3: Man of Steel 6/10
4: Suicide Squad 4/10
5: Batman v. Superman 3/10
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haha they aren't earning enough money, take that Znydar !
Actual Criticisms of the Film:
! they still barely showed us anything to tell us WHY the world loves him. I guess dying just suddenly made the world love him? After hating him in BvS?
The world has never hated Superman. I thought it was pretty clear people just had mixed feelings. The majority loved him. I mean, he even had a national funeral… because he saved the world---- twice ????
Bruce and Lex ≠ the world
And tbh, Superman is a demigod, it's enough reason to worship him. On the other hand, why people didn't worship Diana back in WW1 ? uhu…..
! They're also sticking with Batman's MAAAAAAAAARTHAAAAA turn completely flipping how he feels about Superman. There's a part in this movie where he's like "He's more human than you or I!" to Alfred, and it's like "Dude, you hated him and tried to kill him, then because your moms had the same name you suddenly became besties with him 5 fucking minutes before he died?!?!?!
Yes lol this is exactly what Bruce said, and has nothing at all to do with the pathetic interpretation.
Every nation gets the government it deserves.–-- Joseph de Maistre
haha they aren't earning enough money, take that Znydar !
Considering this movie isn't exactly good, but is a step in the right direction, I'm kinda sad it's not making money. I'd have liked if it would make slightly more than BvS but not blow anyone away.
I'm worried they're gonna take the wrong message from this and instead of going "We've been royally screwing up these movies for the most part, maybe we should try harder" they'll go "welp, I guess nobody likes DC. Time to pack it in"
The world has never hated Superman. I thought it was pretty clear people just had mixed feelings. The majority loved him. I mean, he even had a national funeral… because he saved the world---- twice ????
Bruce and Lex ≠ the world
He'd only saved the world once that we saw by the time of BvS, and the destruction caused during that was a big part of the conflict.
So, I guess:
All… don't count?
There's a saying in film called "Show Don't Tell" Which basically means that the actions of the characters we see are more valuable to conveying a message than exposition telling or showing us that something happened off screen.
Only two things happen in BvS to show Superman was ever held up as a good thing by anyone.
1: The brief montage we got of him saving stuff and a few people. He saved that rocket and giant oil tanker, but they never showed the human side of that. Like the Astronauts walking about and thanking him or anything. The two shots we actually get in the montage of him saving actual human beings are more interested in playing up the "Superman is a God" symbolism than actually showing that he cares. When he flies that girl out of the burning building, he puts her down among the huge crowd of people and then NOBODY, including Superman seems to care about her at that point. The scene is now focused on showing everyone worshiping Superman. Same from the only other part of the montage like this where he saves those people from that flood on the top of their house. We don't see him actually save them, they show the imagery of him descending from the heavens and the people reaching up and then it cuts.
! Compare this to Justice League, which while not perfect, had a few great moments. Like the opening where he actually talks to those two kids. He's fucking Superman, but he took a moment to talk to two kids? That's the kind of thing that makes people trust you. Also, later in the movie we actually see Superman prioritize saving people. There's that part where Batman is like "we gotta fight Steppenwolf and keep him away from Cyborg" and Superman goes "But the people outside…" and Batman goes "It's ok, Flash is on it" and Superman realizes Flash won't make it in time so he flies off to help with that first.
I wish we'd gotten to see him interact with the people he saved, but just showing him care like that was a step in the right direction
2: The statue of him existing at all. This one is intentionally undercut by the "False God" spraypaint.
What I'm saying is, we only got two movies of Superman before he died at the end of one of those movies, and in that time we got:
We as an audience were never given a chance to actually EXPERIENCE the part where he was apparently a hopeful inspiration to people. Which is why it feels like everyone just hates him and it's weird that suddenly that all just goes away when he dies.
Really, Angry Joe
in he and the Nostalgia Critic's review of it. It feels like they didn't earn the Death of Superman.And tbh, Superman is a demigod, it's enough reason to worship him. On the other hand, why people didn't worship Diana back in WW1 ? uhu…..
Because they made it very clear she dropped out of the public eye after that?…
Also, "Because he's basically a god" is an awful reason for people to worship him.
People shouldn't WORSHIP him like a god, that would make Lex... right...
If you really think that you don't understand Superman at all. He's a character who represents hope. Zack Snyder understood this on SOME level because of the whole "The Superman Logo means Hope" stuff in Man of Steel.
There's a reason some of the best Superman moments aren't him getting to punch a big Monster, but instead are smaller moments where he shows kindness.
THIS is Superman.
THIS is Superman.
THIS is Superman!
is Superman!And especially THIS is Superman.
People shouldn't just bow down before him because he's an all powerful god, he needs to earn the trust and love of the world. He needs to stand as that symbol of kindness and hope he is. That's built up over time in the comics. That the movies put no effort into showing us he's done.
Superman needs to be the kind of guy who saves people. The kind of guy who takes a moment to help a depressed girl thinking of Jumping, the kind of guy who gives up a lifetime of happiness with a wife and son who love him to stop the bad guy, and still feel the heartache of losing a child despite knowing he isn't real. Superman needs to be the kind of person who invites his teammates to spend the Holidays with him so they won't have to be alone.
They needed to EARN that. Especially before killing him for the Death of Superman to have the impact it's supposed to have.
Yes lol this is exactly what Bruce said, and has nothing at all to do with the pathetic interpretation.
What? I just used that as an example of Bruce being Clark's biggest advocate and Cheerleader through the entire movie.
I mean seriously…
! Even Wonder Woman wasn't so sure about resurrecting him, but Batman, the guy who wanted to kill him until very recently, has ABSOLUTELY NO reservations about bringing him back from the dead?…. Along with his sudden turn at the end of BvS during the MARTHAAAAAAA Scene, it just feels like Batman turned from hating Superman to loving him a bit too easy.
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There needed to be like two movies between MoS and BvS for any of what they were going for to have any weight.
Justice League was better than the rest of the DCU movies sans Wonder Woman, but yeah. It shows what happens when you don't put in the work of world- and character-building before jumping into the team-up movie. Nothing carried any weight at all. This shouldn't be our introduction to Flash, Cyborg, and Aquaman. Maybe one of them (Cyborg), not all. There's absolutely no excitement of seeing all these heroes together. Especially since they were all basically just stalling for time for Superman to come back and clean up their mess. There were clunky attempts at humor and lightness but it also shows that WB has no idea with what they're trying to accomplish with this shared universe. Man of Steel was modeled after Nolan's Batman movies, but now they're trying to shift gears on the fly and copy the MCU, and it creates a tonal mess. The incompetency of Snyder's writing and directing just compounds it.
Steppenwolf really outdoes a lot of MCU villains for how terrible he is. I can't believe how bad the CGI was for him, and God knows what he was even trying to accomplish.
The box office for this movie is soft, but not crippling, as they had to expect this somewhat with it still having the Batman v Superman stink on it. Whatever the case we're going to be seeing a hell of a lot more Wonder Woman. Hopefully they use her as a model for how to handle standalone movies for the other superheroes, rather than just giving up on all of them and overusing Wonder Woman to the point of saturation.
Steppenwolf really outdoes a lot of MCU villains for how terrible he is. I can't believe how bad the CGI was for him, and God knows what he was even trying to accomplish.
I know right?
Maliketh is typically held up as the absolute worst Villain Marvel has to offer and at least he had a cool fight scene. The teleporting during the fight was pretty cool and memorable.
What did Steppenwolf have?!
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Considering this movie isn't exactly good, but is a step in the right direction, I'm kinda sad it's not making money. I'd have liked if it would make slightly more than BvS but not blow anyone away.
I'm worried they're gonna take the wrong message from this and instead of going "We've been royally screwing up these movies for the most part, maybe we should try harder" they'll go "welp, I guess nobody likes DC. Time to pack it in"
Considering how bad the reviews of BvS were, I'm not surprised in the slightest how bad the JL is doing in terms of income.
As for DC/WB dropping the DCCU. I don't think it's gonna happen any time soon.
So, I guess:
- Holly Hunter's Senator Character
- Military Folks Working with Lex on the Kryptonite
- Whoever Spary Painted "False God" on the Superman Statue
- Guy who blew himself up in that Senate Hearing
- Some of the pundits during the news montage who clearly had an Anti-Superman poistion
All… don't count?
They do– but as Henry Cavill said in the movie "not everyone thinks like" Bruce (scene at Lex Luthor's banquet or whatever it was).
Also, people like him now because I guess they found out Lex Luthor was making him look like a baddy from all along--- and Superman is actually a nice guy.
They forgave him about destroying Metropolis because urgh this time he didn't ? Anyway, everyone knows he's a good guy now and I don't even get why it's a criticism about JL because it was settled at the end of BvS.
Only two things happen in BvS to show Superman was ever held up as a good thing by anyone.
1: The brief montage we got of him saving stuff and a few people.
2: The statue of him existing at all. This one is intentionally undercut by the "False God" spraypaint.
Zack Snyder's Superman isn't canon. And I always thought the characters were gonna change. I had no problem at all with the dark tone because I was pretty much sure the characters were gonna get through some chara-developments
Because they made it very clear she dropped out of the public eye after that?…
The people who fought alongside her during the war were like "uhh, she's just a strong women. Also, her father is Zeus, I'll just drop a punchline and forget about it during the rest of the movie and eventually treat her like a naive child when she'll say who the villain is and all"
Also, "Because he's basically a god" is an awful reason for people to worship him.
No ?? At least not in in the Snyder-universe. Anyway, it's just a moral judgment I guess
What? I just used that as an example of Bruce being Clark's biggest advocate and Cheerleader through the entire movie.
I'm talking about Martha.
The hate is sticking to "haha Martha" even though we've been saying since the movie was released that it's not only about the same name. Just like Affleck said in this movie "yeah uhu he's super-human, has a gf, a mom and all–- and he's nice etc". Even though it was poorly executed of course.
Steppenwolf has exactly one (1) decent moment: "Please, I have a family!" "Why do people keep telling me that?"
I thinl only the comicbook fans are mad at Steppenworlf's weapon not being explained or what, because I couldn't care less wtf it was.
Wonder Woman worked, I have no doubt the sequel will too. James Wan is a very competent director, so I don't think Aquaman won't be entertaining. The Batman by Matt Reeves should be good. Now that Justice League is out, hopefully the stank from the Snyder movies will go away, and they can finally put out a string of good movies.
And I actually enjoy a majority of Snyders movies, yes even Sucker Punch, which for me was just a cool long live action anime music video, lol. But yes, he just was the wrong choice for setting the tone for the dceu and be the main driving force as director of these huge comic characters.
They do– but as Henry Cavill said in the movie "not everyone thinks like" Bruce (scene at Lex Luthor's banquet or whatever it was).
Also, people like him now because I guess they found out Lex Luthor was making him look like a baddy from all along--- and Superman is actually a nice guy.
They forgave him about destroying Metropolis because urgh this time he didn't ?Anyway, everyone knows he's a good guy now and I don't even get why it's a criticism about JL because it was settled at the end of BvS.
Again, Show Don't Tell.
It's a valid criticism of JL because it's a loose end that BvS left open that JL did nothing to address. It flat out ignored it.
It's like when people criticize the part in Star Wars where Yoda tells Luke Skywalker he needs to complete his training before confronting Vader so he can't leave yet, Luke Leaves anyway, and then when Luke comes back in Return of the Jedi, Yoda is like "Nevermind, you already leared everything you need to know"
It can be explained away, and I'm pretty sure there are EU novels and comics that came up with an explanation. Pretty sure Yoda gave Luke Jedi holocrons so he could train on his own before coming back, but just because you can rationalize and explain it, doesn't mean the film makers didn't drop the ball in conveying that to the audience in the movies themselves.
Now, in this case I actually like the end result. I LIKE that Batman and Superman are just friends in the movie. It brings them more in line with where I think they should be as characters and what I wanted to see in an adaptation of them, but BvS still exists and when judged as a sequel to BvS is where I think this counts as a failing.
Zack Snyder's Superman isn't canon. And I always thought the characters were gonna change. I had no problem at all with the dark tone because I was pretty much sure the characters were gonna get through some chara-developments
That's my entire issue.
We got very little character development for Superman here, and what we did get in Man of Steel was reverted in BvS.
He spends most of MoS unsure of himself. Contemplating if he should be this savior for the people of the world or not. His arc for this movie ends with him embracing his role as savior. This is shown both symbolically when he puts on the suit and then works his way up to flying in that scene, and then at the end he flat out tells that general "Hey, here's your crumpled up drone. Trust me, I'm here to do good".
They completely ignored this in BvS and reverted him back to mopey and unsure for seemingly no reason. I've gone to great lengths before on how this hurts Superman's character arc, undoes what good MoS DID do, and ultimately works against the primary conflict of BvS before. I don't really want to repeat myself.
The people who fought alongside her during the war were like "uhh, she's just a strong women. Also, her father is Zeus, I'll just drop a punchline and forget about it during the rest of the movie and eventually treat her like a naive child when she'll say who the villain is and all"
What? She never told anyone she was Zeus' daughter. She didn't know until the final battle with Ares.
Also, every time she told someone Ares was responsible for the War they thought she was Crazy and/or naive and they ended up being right. Ares wasn't responsible for mankind going to war in general.
Also, I love how her acting naive and being amazed by things in the modern (Compared to Themyscira) world equate to being "Childish" to you. Sorry, but this is how someone would act in Diana's shoes.
She lived her entire life on an island of Amazons with ancient Greek era technology and never seeing any person other than herself who wasn't already an adult.
No ?? At least not in in the Snyder-universe. Anyway, it's just a moral judgment I guess
The entire thematic situation Zack Snyder is going for in the movies, which is very very clear because he basically beats you over the head with it is:
"Can the world trust a being as powerful as Superman? What if a godly being like him decides to just kill everyone?"
This is why Holly Hunter didn't like him, this is why Lex Luthor didn't like him, and this is why Batman didn't like him.
"If we think there is even a 1% chance that he is our enemy we have to take it as an ABSOLUTE certainty"
The entire point of these movies is supposed to be Superman gaining the trust of the people of the world.
If people are just supposed to worship him because he has Godlike powers, then in what way does that prove Lex Luthor Wrong? In what way does that prove Pre-MARTHA! Batman wrong?
They needed to SHOW US him doing good things and proving he has a moral and kind character in order to SHOW the audience Batman and Lex were wrong. One montage of him saving a few people that is more interested in playing up the god imagery than showing that he cares for the people he's saving did not accomplish that.
We REALLY needed like 2 movies between MoS and BvS, at minimum to demonstrate this.
I'm talking about Martha.
The hate is sticking to "haha Martha" even though we've been saying since the movie was released that it's not only about the same name. Just like Affleck said in this movie "yeah uhu he's super-human, has a gf, a mom and all–- and he's nice etc". Even though it was poorly executed of course.
Really a lot of this is also poor execution. A LOT of it.
The "MARTHAAAA" thing gets rightly mocked because of poor execution. I GET what they were going for, but they did nothing to work towards it.
"MARTHAA" was supposed to snap Batman out of seeing im as an inhuman alien monster and cause him to see the human side of Clark. I get that. It's just awful in its execution.
RIGHT before this as Batman is dragging Superman to where he's going to stab him, he says:
"I bet your parents taught you, that you mean something. That you're here for a reason. My parents taught me a different lesson. Dying in the gutter. For no reason at all.
They taught me the world only makes sense, if you force it to."
I know they included this line because it was in The Dark Knight Returns and this whole movie was Zack Snyder trying to adapt that movie while still making it about Superman as best he can, but that line is part of what ruins the "MARTHAAA" scene because here's Batman FLAT OUT SAYING he knows Clark was raised by adopted human parents.
Then there's the really stupid awkward way they had Clark shout "MARTHAAA" like that. They just REALLY needed him to say her name out loud like that. He knows Batman knows who he is by now. So why is he just saying her first name? Why not "My Mother"? Or if he didn't know Batman knew his secret by now, what about "Martha Kent?" How the fuck is Batman supposed to just know who "Martha" is?!
It's because Zack Snyder REALLY needed him to dramatically shout "MARTHAA" like that.
It was sloppy and akwward and came across REALLY REALLY dumb so I mock it.
I thinl only the comicbook fans are mad at Steppenworlf's weapon not being explained or what, because I couldn't care less wtf it was.
Uh, what?
! I don't want a freaking explanation of what the Axe was in and of itself, what I want is an explanation for why he had NO PROBLEM controlling the Parademons before it was destroyed, and then AFTER it gets destroyed, suddenly he loses control of them and they attack him.
! Why does this happen? Why did the Parademons attack him? I focus on the axe because destroying it SEEMS to be what caused this, but the movie does nothing to explain this. They were never trying to break the axe specifically. Splitting up the Mother boxes was their goal. They just somehow got super lucky and destroying the axe caused the Parademons to turn on him…. for some reason...
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I thought BvS was fine, the action in the end is sort of a saving grace for me. Suicide Squad was unbelievably bad, what were they even thinking, bad. Haven't watched Wonder Woman yet.
JL is good, although it comes through short in some parts. Steppenwolf lacks depth and most of the suspense vanishes when they bring Supes back. I expected at least a threatening power up, or Stepp realizing Supes is alive and digging out some kryptonite from wherever.
But like some have said already, it's a nice step forward.
Oh yeah, action was pretty fun, but it felt like it was done routinely in some parts. You know, short sequences without a lot of thought put into them. At this age, after so many action movies with great fighting scenes, I always expect something a little more creative.
So, yeah, I liked it. It was good, not great.
A live-action Justice League movie featuring Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Aquaman, and Cyborg, with fitting actors to boot, was good, not great. I would say it's a complete waste if I didn't at least have fun.
At least it was better than SS and BvS. By leaps and bounds. Mostly because the heroes had great chemistry with one another and the battles were well done. Yeah, the choreography and editing was hard to follow some, thanks to the CGI, but you get used it, or at least I did. But, seriously, the characters made the movie worthwhile. The plot was there because it had to be. It does nothing to contribute to the enjoyment of the film, but does everything to take away from it.
Side note, the movie was even a little funny. Looking forward to future movies featuring the characters. I don't know who's getting a standalone movie besides Aquaman but I kinda hope Flash and Cyborg get thrown in there somehow because does every one of these characters really need their own movie at this point? Isn't it a little too late for that now?
Also, can we finally get MoS2???
Justice League was a hot mess that I didn't mind watching because I love Diana, Victor, and Barry so god damn much.
The world has never hated Superman. I thought it was pretty clear people just had mixed feelings. The majority loved him.
Like you they didn't love him they had mixed feelings. Pretty much any part about superman where about how people where still trying to make up their mind on him. Then he died and everyone decided he was already an icon.
Saw JL last night. Really lukewarm on it. Most of the new actors feel right for their character. I’ve always liked Jason Momoa, so I guess his performance captivated me the most. Also, Henry feels like Superman, at last. I guess that’s the highest praise I can give it. I know Steppenwolf has always been dull as fuck in the comics, but did it have to be so in the movie too? What’s even the point of making him a bad guy if he can’t carry a story on his own?
I’m sort of glad they left all the pretentiousness of BvS where it belonged, it made watching JL a lot more bearable. But..: was there even a theme to this movie? Even one?
Saw JL last night. Really lukewarm on it. Most of the new actors feel right for their character. I’ve always liked Jason Momoa, so I guess his performance captivated me the most. Also, Henry feels like Superman, at last. I guess that’s the highest praise I can give it. I know Steppenwolf has always been dull as fuck in the comics, but did it have to be so in the movie too? What’s even the point of making him a bad guy if he can’t carry a story on his own?
I’m sort of glad they left all the pretentiousness of BvS where it belonged, it made watching JL a lot more bearable. But..: was there even a theme to this movie? Even one?
You know, mid movie, it felt like it was going to be about Batman, and him discovering that he doesn't need to have superpowers to be the one who can lead. Who others can look up to. But it just gets dropped, or doesn't have enough emphasis to be something noticeable.
One other thing that bothered me was JL planning. The Amazons supposedly can't leave Themiscyra, but nothing like that was mentioned about Atlanteans. So how come "let's revive Superman" instead of "let's call 20 Atlantean warriors" is the first thing that crosses Batman's mind? I know not all of them are hybrids like Aquaman, but they (could) have suits ffs.
You know, mid movie, it felt like it was going to be about Batman, and him discovering that he doesn't need to have superpowers to be the one who can lead. Who others can look up to. But it just gets dropped, or doesn't have enough emphasis to be something noticeable.
Yeah you’re right. And it doesn’t need a moral of the story type thing. It could have had a decent payoff if only the Batman action at the end was sort of interesting. Like, Batffleck beat the shit out of a bunch of Parademons who corner one of the other heroes and sorta prove his worth. It’s weird how clumsy and dull the Batman action is this movie. Considering him fighting goons in the last movie was the best part of that one.
One other thing that bothered me was JL planning. The Amazons supposedly can't leave Themiscyra, but nothing like that was mentioned about Atlanteans. So how come "let's revive Superman" instead of "let's call 20 Atlantean warriors" is the first thing that crosses Batman's mind? I know not all of them are hybrids like Aquaman, but they (could) have suits ffs.
Then again, Superman is infinitely more useful.
Then again, Superman is infinitely more useful.
Of course he is, but by the time the possibility of resurrection is on the table, they could have considered calling for mermen. Not to mention mermen themselves ended up being pretty passive about the thingie they kept safe for eons being stolen.
Not to mention JL attacked Stepp without knowing whether Superman will come or not. What was Bat's contingency plan on that?
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He had no plan whatsoever, Batman is a deception in this movie. He has shown himself to be pretty much pointless when it comes to fighting and now he doesn't even have a plan… Why is even part of the team again ? ohhh yeah money--- it wasn't just a joke after all...
Every nation gets the government it deserves.–-- Joseph de Maistre
Of course he is, but by the time the possibility of resurrection is on the table, they could have considered calling for mermen. Not to mention mermen themselves ended up being pretty passive about the thingie they kept safe for eons being stolen.
Not to mention JL attacked Stepp without knowing whether Superman will come or not. What was Bat's contingency plan on that?
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Maybe I misremember but didn’t they have the 3rd mcguffin at the point they attacked Steppenwolf?
Am I the only one who loved the scene where super man was following flash with his eyes lol!!!
I laughed a ton, so great
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what I'm catching up on currently: Gintama, lone wolf & cub, Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, and lost in poem (by our very own AP member GEPPETTOSMONSTER)
