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    Neon Genesis Evangelion

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    • Robby
      Robby @Lord Gaimon
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      @Lord:

      they didn't "run out of money" that's a myth.

      Yes, they did. Ganax is terrible with their money. They ran out of money on Nadia as well. Its why the show has so many long static shots that go for minutes at a time in the later part of the show. That's not because they were being artsy or cinematic, its because they had no money. They blew it on NOT reusing aniamtion or launch sequences and having unique end credit themes every episode, and Anno having a breakdown before the series actually finished is pretty well chronicled.

      The show immemdiately after Eva, His and Her Circumstances, very clearly had no money for its budget either.

      It's also why its taken a decade and a half to get this done, and why they sold FLCL off to a different studio.

      It doesn't matter that it was the "plan" or the "intention", it didn't wrap up anything in any sort of satisfying way, that's why there was such a universal outcry about the ending sucking that continues to this day.

      Even if you manage to prove "The creator wanted it to end without resolving any of the story, answering any questions, and with the animation reduced to storyboards and still frames, and then transition to a fantasy sequence"… doesn't mean it was a GOOD intention.

      reducing End of Evangelion, one of the most beautiful affirmations of life and human connection to a hate letter because of angry fans is beyond disrespectful, it's ignorant and i honestly resent it.

      Ah, so THAT'S why there was a scene of Shinji jerking it over Asuka's comatose body. So beautiful.

      I understood the movie and what it was trying to do just fine. It was an hour and a half snuff film that lacked any joy or hope, where everyone dies horrifically one after the other, lots of grotesque mind screwing images, no one gets to be a hero (except Asuka in a pretty cool scene that she ultimately fails in) , absolutely nothing actually gets answered unless you look into outside material to explain everything, and SHinji fucks up everything. With all the horrific violence and disturbing close ups of Raye's eyes meant to be unsettling set to bright upbeat song called "Come sweet death" for seven minutes straight where an upbeat song cheerfully goes on about how life is terrible, you can never love again after having joy once, everything crumbles and its best just to die. All while giant naked Rei mindfucks and then kills every member of the cast that didn't die earlier.

      Then wrapped up by SHinji being left alone with Asuka on a horrific hellscape all alone, where he proceeds to choke her for the final image of the film.

      All while just using random christian imagery for flavor and no actual meaning or subtext, just purely to be visually interesting to a Japanese audience.

      It deserves to be disrespected.

      Lord Gaimon MrPecans 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
      • Lord Gaimon
        Lord Gaimon @Robby
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        @Robby:

        Yes, they did. Ganax is terrible with their money. They ran out of money on Nadia as well. Its why the show has so many long static shots that go for minutes at a time in the later part of the show. That's not because they were being artsy or cinematic, its because they had no money. They blew it on NOT reusing aniamtion or launch sequences and having unique end credit themes every episode, and Anno having a breakdown before the series actually finished is pretty well chronicled.

        The show immemdiately after Eva, His and Her Circumstances, very clearly had no money for its budget either.

        It's also why its taken a decade and a half to get this done, and why they sold FLCL off to a different studio.

        they didn't run out of money, they ran out of time because of a tight schedule, i don't know why you're bringing up all this irrelevant shit.

        It doesn't matter that it was the "plan" or the "intention", it didn't wrap up anything in any sort of satisfying way, that's why there was such a universal outcry about the ending sucking that continues to this day.

        Even if you manage to prove "The creator wanted it to end without resolving any of the story, answering any questions, and with the animation reduced to storyboards and still frames, and then transition to a fantasy sequence"… doesn't mean it was a GOOD intention.

        they resolve everything worth resolving and answered everything worth answering in EoE, the TV ending and the movie aren't separate you can't judge the overall story by the TV ending because it's more like a bonus to go with EoE so it can only add to the experience.

        Ah, so THAT'S why there was a scene of Shinji jerking it over Asuka's comatose body. So beautiful.

        lol what are you even trying to say here, "character does bad thing so a piece of art is icky now and can't be considered beautiful", did a child write this?

        I understood the movie and what it was trying to do just fine. It was an hour and a half snuff film that lacked any joy or hope, where everyone dies horrifically one after the other, lots of grotesque mind screwing images, no one gets to be a hero (except Asuka in a pretty cool scene that she ultimately fails in) , absolutely nothing actually gets answered unless you look into outside material to explain everything, and SHinji fucks up everything. With all the horrific violence and disturbing close ups of Raye's eyes meant to be unsettling set to bright upbeat song called "Come sweet death" for seven minutes straight where an upbeat song cheerfully goes on about how life is terrible, you can never love again after having joy once, everything crumbles and its best just to die. All while giant naked Rei mindfucks and then kills every member of the cast that didn't die earlier.

        Then wrapped up by SHinji being left alone with Asuka on a horrific hellscape all alone, where he proceeds to choke her for the final image of the film.

        this so wrong and off base that i'm honestly shocked, Evangelion is one the most thematically straighforward series out there, how can someone miss the point this hard. i'm not going to waste my time refuting this because i'll just be reiterating the events of the movie, but i suggest you rewatch it, at least the last 30 mins.

        All while just using random christian imagery for flavor and no actual meaning or subtext, just purely to be visually interesting to a Japanese audience.

        another dumb meme, the religious symbolism while doesn't comment on those specific religions, is integrated in a consistent and well thought out manner, it's not "random" at all.
        and why are you reducing aesthetic direction and visuals to just "flavor", the events of the film are spirutal and transcendent in nature, and the iconography conveys that masterfully.

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          I know people like the final episode of Evangelion and also like EoE and that's cool everybody has their own likes and dislikes but at the same time people who liked it have to acquiesce to the section of fans that didn't like it and thought negatively of it and I know I'm in that camp.

          Originally Posted by Ubiq

          I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

          3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284

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          • Sakonosolo
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            I don't know what people have been watching if they think the Rebuilds will offer any kind of good ending to the series. Eva is a shell of its former self and the Rebuilds are nothing but fanservice (not the ecchi kind) and imo is a much more obvious show of how little Anno cares about the series or what its fans want from it, even more so than the original TV ending or EoE. And it doesn't even have the visuals to prop it up like EoE did.

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            • Cyan D. Funk
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              The really infuriating thing about Evangelion's endings is that Gainax proceeded to do the exact same "fuck off lol" ending to every subsequent show they did.

              FLCL Progressive and Alternative do it to and it's completely obnoxious.

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              • Lord Gaimon
                Lord Gaimon @Cyan D. Funk
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                @Cyan:

                "fuck off lol" ending

                seriously why is this stupid ass notion still so prevalent, it's so bizzare.

                also Progressive and Alternative were made by a different studio and different people, the original FLCL is already a complete story.

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                • KageKageKing
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                  I mean they did create a whole page on TVTropes.

                  –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                  The after credits of Panty and Stocking were basically they making of fun of themselves regarding this.

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                    Green_vs_Red @Lord Gaimon
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                    @Lord:

                    the original FLCL is already a complete story.

                    If you can overlook the somewhat confusing ending of the anime…..not that the manga is any better.

                    @KageKageKing:

                    I mean they did create a whole page on TVTropes.

                    They updated the topic page:ninja:

                    Originally Posted by Ubiq

                    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

                    3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284

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                    • MrPecans
                      MrPecans @Robby
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                      @Robby:

                      Ah, so THAT'S why there was a scene of Shinji jerking it over Asuka's comatose body. So beautiful.

                      I understood the movie and what it was trying to do just fine. It was an hour and a half snuff film that lacked any joy or hope, where everyone dies horrifically one after the other, lots of grotesque mind screwing images, no one gets to be a hero (except Asuka in a pretty cool scene that she ultimately fails in) , absolutely nothing actually gets answered unless you look into outside material to explain everything, and SHinji fucks up everything. With all the horrific violence and disturbing close ups of Raye's eyes meant to be unsettling set to bright upbeat song called "Come sweet death" for seven minutes straight where an upbeat song cheerfully goes on about how life is terrible, you can never love again after having joy once, everything crumbles and its best just to die. All while giant naked Rei mindfucks and then kills every member of the cast that didn't die earlier.

                      Then wrapped up by SHinji being left alone with Asuka on a horrific hellscape all alone, where he proceeds to choke her for the final image of the film.

                      All while just using random christian imagery for flavor and no actual meaning or subtext, just purely to be visually interesting to a Japanese audience.

                      It deserves to be disrespected.

                      Until the bolded part this didn't even feel like a criticism to me haha, I love allll of that downer, creepy shit. Seriously, so much of Evangelion is about Shinji's sexual frustration and depression. I can't even fathom not loving End of Evangelion if you liked the series proper. The entire show feels like it's building up to the end of the world and then they have the nerve to actually DO that and not chicken out with a traditional happy ending. It's fucking great.

                      –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                      @Lord:

                      seriously why is this stupid ass notion still so prevalent, it's so bizzare.

                      and YOU. You're the best. Keep it up. End of Evangelion for life.

                      Favorite thing aside from One Piece is movies! Updated favorite films: The Passion of Joan of Arc / Alien / It's a Wonderful Life / Casablanca / One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest / The Apartment / Nights of Cabiria / Dr. Strangelove / All About Eve / Amadeus / Man Who Shot Liberty Valance

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                        Desperado @MrPecans
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                        I wished more series ended with the author just murdering everyone. It's the noblest form of self-deprecation. And goes excellent with classical music.

                        "You either die a villain, or live long enough to see yourself become the hero." - Vegeta, Hero Slayer Garou, most MLP villains etc.

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                        • Lord Gaimon
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                          being in the sea of LCL doesn't mean you're dead, you can come back if you want to.

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                          • KageKageKing
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                            NGE and Code Geass are similar in some ways for me as in the most interesting parts are when there isn't any robot fight showing.

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                            • Daz
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                              Regarding the revitalized discourse, my current impression of Evangelion and its endings is that it might all make total cohesive sense, but it all felt so bleak that I can't bear the thought of revisiting it and finding out.

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                              • maxterdexter
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                                I think that collective sense is overrated, take each ending as its own thing, and find happiness on the approval of a penguin or dispair at the ayanami beach, or whatever wild ride rebuild is going to take us. The artists and more importantly, ourselves, are different people back then and now. Maybe if the author is trying to keep an unified vision like Oda, you could argue for making sense, but budgets, psychologists, fuck you to fans, and “let’s see what is cool” have influenced this one too much to have a meaning.

                                3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837

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                                • Lord Gaimon
                                  Lord Gaimon @maxterdexter
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                                  @maxterdexter:

                                  budgets, psychologists, fuck you to fans, and “let’s see what is cool” have influenced this one too much

                                  they didn't actually.

                                  man, lterally no anime has as much misinformation spread around as relentlessly as Evangelion.

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                                  • Robby
                                    Robby @Lord Gaimon
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                                    @Lord:

                                    man, lterally no anime has as much misinformation spread around as relentlessly as Evangelion.

                                    I'm quite confident Dragonball can crush it pretty easily for levels of misinformation and fan speculation.

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                                      Green_vs_Red @Robby
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                                      @Robby:

                                      I'm quite confident Dragonball can crush it pretty easily for levels of misinformation and fan speculation.

                                      Low hanging fruit .

                                      Originally Posted by Ubiq

                                      I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

                                      3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284

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                                      • Robby
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                                        Gai said literally no other anime. That is almost certainly factually wrong. I just went with Dragonball because its well known and easy to prove. Practically anything thats ever been on Cartoon Network would probably apply. I'm sure there's lots of misinformation about how the hell Tenchi Muyo works. And where to even start with Sailor Moon.

                                        I could run with Macross instead but no one gives a crap about it that didn't watch Robotech in the 80's.

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                                        • Demon Rin
                                          Demon Rin @Lord Gaimon
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                                          @Lord:

                                          they didn't "run out of money" that's a myth. the tv ending is an amazing piece of writing that wraps up multiple complex character arcs and beautifully and creatively presents the series message about self acceptance and human connection. so yeah i'd say it's good.

                                          Yes they did. This is a matter of record.

                                          @Anno Interview:

                                          Anno: I also [thought] it would be a topic of discussion, even after it was finished. A part of it was that, for me, providing that discussion would be [a form of] service. [An] unprecedented [service]. Working assiduously at it, we got that kind of ending. [?]

                                          Oizumi: This has to do with the fact that you ended up spending all your money… From an economic standpoint, it's a well-known story that little money remains to be passed down to the animators, or those occupying the lowest positions [among the staff].

                                          Anno: Right. [What they get] is not at all proportionate to the [amount of] content [they create]. All they get to compensate for that [insufficient amount of money] is something psychological. _only have them be pleased with the fact, when they see the finished work, that it is interesting and they are glad to have worked on it. I could only arrange for them to receive a psychological [form of] remuneration. But that becomes a kind of pressure in its own way, because they may stop working on it if it becomes uninteresting. I always have to provide something interesting. It was a game played in earnest.

                                          Source

                                          @Lord:

                                          the "anno made EoE to spite fans" is also a myth made by insecure western anime fans. i can't believe I have to explain this in the year 2021 but EoE is by all means the original plan for the ending, down to episode 24 showing unfinished previews of scenes that are in EoE two years later. honestly if you think otherwise you literally just did not pay attention, because all threads that were set up in the show tie into EoE. It's also not a bleak movie because it has the same essential message as the TV ending, which is a hopeful one.
                                          reducing End of Evangelion, one of the most beautiful affirmations of life and human connection to a hate letter because of angry fans is beyond disrespectful, it's ignorant and i honestly resent it.

                                          @Lord:

                                          they resolve everything worth resolving and answered everything worth answering in EoE, the TV ending and the movie aren't separate you can't judge the overall story by the TV ending because it's more like a bonus to go with EoE so it can only add to the experience.

                                          Ok no, this definitely isn't true.

                                          It's probable that the basic outline of what happens in EoE was the original plan.

                                          Shinji is in a near comatose state, SELEE turns on NERV and dispatches the Mass Production Evas, Asuka fights them in Unit 02, Shinji eventually snaps out of his funk and goes to save her, Third Impact ends up happening and Shinji ultimately is given a choice to reject Instrumentality or not. He choses to reject.

                                          In a purely mechanical standpoint, that was likely the plan.

                                          The thematic and emotional direction however is MARKEDLY different and the TV version of the ending absolutely do not gel with the movie version of in this way.

                                          @Shinji rejecting Instrumentality in The TV Show.:

                                          "I hate myself. But I could love myself. Maybe my life could have a greater value. That's right! I am no more or less than myself. I am me! I want to be myself! I want to continue existing in this world! I am worth living here!"

                                          @Shinji rejecting Instrumentality in EoE.:

                                          in response to being told Rei and Kaworu represent "the hope that people will one day be able to understand each other" and the words "I love you" Shinji responds:

                                          "But that's just a pretense… A selfish belief. Like some kind of prayer. It can't possibly last forever. Eventually, I'll be betrayed and it will abandon me. But still, I want to see them again, Because at the time I knew my feelings were real."

                                          These are fundamentally incompatible with each other.

                                          One is unambiguously hopeful. Shinji maybe not defeating his depression but coming to an understanding of it and a resolve that he has value and could be capable of loving himself.

                                          The other, he ends it bitterly believing that other people will eventually betray and abandon him and only choosing to reject instrumentality because other people will be able to feel fear again and at least that's "real". Then he chokes Asuka on the LCL beach and she calls him disgusting. and that's how it ends.

                                          There is a book called the "Red Cross Book" that was a booklet, a pamphlet that you could buy with your movie ticket when you saw the movie in Japan that outright says that the only reason the movie exists is because of loud outcry and fan dissatisfaction.

                                          to underscore this: The manga actually adapts the basic outline of everything that happened in EoE, but shifts things to the more hopeful tone of the end of the TV series.

                                          In THIS version when Shinji rejects Instrumentality he focusses on the JOY that he and others can feel if they're separated.

                                          @Shinji:

                                          "If we continue to be joined together like this… we won't feel anything. No happiness... No joy... let's go back to the former world.

                                          Rei: "Their voices are going to hurt you again"

                                          "That's Okay. Just like you said. People's hands could hurt me... My hands could hurt others... even the hands that connect us could come separated. But Ayanami... I... even then, I still want to hold your hand just one more time"

                                          This shows that the more hopeful tone IS possible with the basic outline of what happens and that Shinji's characterization specifically could have been handled the same way as the TV series without much changing.

                                          You can like what was ultimately released, I'm not saying you can't or you shouldn't, but blindly ignoring the obvious issues with its production and pretending people who acknowledge those things and came to different conclusions about the material than you are malicious is willfully ignorant and insulting._

                                          Switch Friend Code: SW-1795-2519-1884 • Click Here to check out my Twitch Channel

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                                            Green_vs_Red @Robby
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                                            @Robby:

                                            I could run with Macross instead but no one gives a crap about it that didn't watch Robotech in the 80's.

                                            Well you aren’t wrong there the only old school anime other than DBZ and Evangelion that I’ve experienced that’s had a handful of stories and myths surrounding it’s production is Gundam and even then what little I know about or heard wouldn’t fit in the palm of my hand.

                                            Originally Posted by Ubiq

                                            I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

                                            3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284

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                                            • Robby
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                                              Everything neat and interesting Eva did, in terms of changing the genre and deconstruction and character arcs and being dark but hopeful and cool fight scenes and good music…

                                              Modoka Magica did it WAY better in way less time and with a much stronger ending.

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                                              • Sakonosolo
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                                                Madoka has the same thing with having both a TV ending and a movie ending that people argue about ad nauseum. Madoka is definitely more straightforward though, I agree. I think both series tend to be overrated by people with little experience in the genres they're "deconstructing" though, personally.

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                                                  Cobra Banclock @Robby
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                                                  @Robby:

                                                  Everything neat and interesting Eva did, in terms of changing the genre and deconstruction and character arcs and being dark but hopeful and cool fight scenes and good music…

                                                  Modoka Magica did it WAY better in way less time and with a much stronger ending.

                                                  Madoka is a great show in its own regard, but it completely washed over any parts that made Eva fascinating to me as an adulting teenager back in the day (which is ok, since Madoka primarily dealt with kid protagonists, even the blatant gore and violence didn't really change the kiddy themes for me). Madoka had shock value, it had characters who were forced to engage with their own egotism and the series was incredible in reframing the selflessness of the charactes into the fullblown narcissism it actually was.

                                                  But Eva approached adult themes, sexual and otherwise, and metaphorically blew a hot, steamin' load straight into my face and forced me to say "Thank you, Daddy" afterwards. It's not comparable. Madoka is still a little baby in comparison. I agree Eva is all over the place and would have been a much better show with a tight writing but it's still waaay up there. And another thing where the two shows differ: I don't know where you ever got it from, that Eva was a hopeful show and that's why Madoka will always remain Eva's edgy, but hopeful little sister, that's waaay too deep into cosplay.

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                                                  • Lord Gaimon
                                                    Lord Gaimon @Demon Rin
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                                                    @Demon:

                                                    Yes they did. This is a matter of record.

                                                    this is about how animators don't get paid enough and that the quality of the work is dependent on their passion and dedication for it, which is the standard for most anime.
                                                    the first part of that interview explicitly says that the problems with production were because of scheduling

                                                    The other, he ends it bitterly believing that other people will eventually betray and abandon him and only choosing to reject instrumentality because other people will be able to feel fear again and at least that's "real". Then he chokes Asuka on the LCL beach and she calls him disgusting. and that's how it ends.

                                                    what an absurd interpretation, Shinji rejects instrumentality a world where everyone is connected and everyone understands each other, but no one really exists (this directly ties in with the TV ending theme of "you need someone other to compare and reflect yourself off to recognize your own individual shape") and accepts reality where he knows that pain and betrayal are inevitable but life is still worth living.(this is also consistent with the themes of the TV series like the hedgehog's dilemma and how we should accept and face reality instead of escaping it). and how is it even possible to think the "real feelings" he was talking about is fear, they literally show this image when he says it, that whole scene is about overcoming fear, persevering through the pain of life and finding the strength to keep trying to connect to others.
                                                    my interpretation of the last scene is it's meant to briefly illustrate this by showing that there is hope for understanding and honest communication when asuka strokes his face gently and he starts crying.

                                                    There is a book called the "Red Cross Book" that was a booklet, a pamphlet that you could buy with your movie ticket when you saw the movie in Japan that outright says that the only reason the movie exists is because of loud outcry and fan dissatisfaction.

                                                    the words used don't mention any outcry or dissatisfaction just a demand for more which is a positive reaction. but this doesn't matter that book wasn't written by Anno and i already established that EoE was the original plan.

                                                    You can like what was ultimately released, I'm not saying you can't or you shouldn't, but blindly ignoring the obvious issues with its production and pretending people who acknowledge those things and came to different conclusions about the material than you are malicious is willfully ignorant and insulting.

                                                    I'm only mad because you guys are trying to force an interpretation of something i really love into some nihilistic, bitter tirade about "the fans" and clearly demonstrating just how little you actually know about it despite trying to play yourselves off like teachers.

                                                    –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                    @Robby:

                                                    deconstruction

                                                    Eva isn't a deconstruction.

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                                                    • Robby
                                                      Robby @Lord Gaimon
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                                                      @Lord:

                                                      Eva isn't a deconstruction.

                                                      It is 100% a deconstruction. It takes all the giant robot anime about boys and their fathers before it and completely fucks with it. The entire reason it was as revolutionary as it was is because it took a bunch of tired decades old tropes from Gigantor to Gundam to Macross and turned the and then broke them.

                                                      "Hey, here's what would happen if you REALLY threw a child soldier into machine of death without any preperation!" It's like, half the pitch of the whole concept.

                                                      Like, if you don't understand the most fundamental basic tennant of Eva's core, that of "we're going to be DIFFERENT from the other giant robot shows!" they you don't have a proper appeciation for the history of anime, or what eva did to it.

                                                      @Cobra:

                                                      I don't know where you ever got it from, that Eva was a hopeful show

                                                      I don't think Eva is hopeful at all, but that's what folks in here are insisting.

                                                      It's bleak for the sake of bleakness. It's got fanservice for the sake of fanservice. It's got Christian symbolism for the sake of it. But it's all there just to BE there, it doesn't go any deeper than that.

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                                                      • Lord Gaimon
                                                        Lord Gaimon @Robby
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                                                        @Robby:

                                                        It is 100% a deconstruction. It takes all the giant robot anime about boys and their fathers before it and completely fucks with it. The entire reason it was as revolutionary as it was is because it took a bunch of tired decades old tropes from Gigantor to Gundam to Macross and turned the and then broke them.

                                                        "Hey, here's what would happen if you REALLY threw a child soldier into machine of death without any preperation!" It's like, half the pitch of the whole concept.

                                                        no it's not, those concepts were being explored in mecha since amuro.

                                                        Like, if you don't understand the most fundamental basic tennant of Eva's core, that of "we're going to be DIFFERENT from the other giant robot shows!" they you don't have a proper appeciation for the history of anime, or what eva did to it.

                                                        i understand Eva perfectly well, you're the one who's stuck spouting an idiotic narrative that only exists because a lot of the early western anime fans were insecure morons.

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                                                        • Robby
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                                                          Gundam was about "war is hell and people die". Less about "piloting a giant robot fucks you up psychologically."

                                                          Even then Gundam kind of abandoned that later for "cool pilots use super suits that can destroy huge armies solo! Badass!"

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                                                          • Lord Gaimon
                                                            Lord Gaimon @Robby
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                                                            @Robby:

                                                            Gundam was about "war is hell and people die". Less about "piloting a giant robot fucks you up psychologically."

                                                            it's about both those things and a lot of other things.
                                                            and Evangelion isn't about "piloting a giant robot fucks you up psychologically." it touches on the subject but it's not the central focus.

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                                                              Maybe it's me but while Amuro did have his problems in the original Gundam he largely had no problems with murdering enemy soliders or going out in the RX-78 even while knowing his life would be in considerable danger.

                                                              Originally Posted by Ubiq

                                                              I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

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                                                              • Robby
                                                                Robby @Lord Gaimon
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                                                                Also Amaro never really complained about piloting Gundam, killing enemies, and being its pilot in and of itself never really took a toll on him…seeing loved ones die was mostly what did it.

                                                                That pretty much carried through to all future Gundams. Unless its one of the super grounded ones like War in teh Pocket, they basically never complain about the position they're put in, the drama tends to come from other stuff and whatever war they're caught up in in general. (And generally Gundam versus evil gundam is the big conflict later.)

                                                                By the time they got to Gundam Wing in the 90's, (which was Eva's contemporary) they really didn't care about that part. They slaughtered hundreds of enemies and had personal baggage, but it was in a very shonen way. They talked a lot about pacificm and peace but never really dwelled on the emotional cost at all. It was pretty hollow by that point.

                                                                @Lord:

                                                                it's about both those things and a lot of other things.
                                                                and Evangelion isn't about "piloting a giant robot fucks you up psychologically." it touches on the subject but it's not the central focus.

                                                                Fair.

                                                                The actual premise is "you have to be fucked up psychologically and have mommy issues to pilot a giant robot".

                                                                Piloting the things just messed them up more with the multiple instances of mind rape and physical brutalization..

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                                                                  You must have missed Amuro having a mental breakdown and running away because he didn't want to fight anymore. But then he came back because he realized he was the only one that could protect the people on White Base. Basically the same thing that happened in Eva a couple times. That aspect wasn't as much of a thing in later series but it was in 0079. He kept sort of that kind of stance in later series though. He doesn't want people to fight, and this is heightened by his newtype sense. Uso from Victory doesn't really break down but he doesn't want to kill people and it's made worse by everyone around him constantly being killed.

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                                                                    I forget but was that before or after Ramba blew himself up?

                                                                    Originally Posted by Ubiq

                                                                    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

                                                                    3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284

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                                                                    • Robby
                                                                      Robby @Sakonosolo
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                                                                      @Sakonosolo:

                                                                      You must have missed Amuro having a mental breakdown and running away because he didn't want to fight anymore. But then he came back because he realized he was the only one that could protect the people on White Base. Basically the same thing that happened in Eva a couple times. That aspect wasn't as much of a thing in later series but it was in 0079. He kept sort of that kind of stance in later series though. He doesn't want people to fight, and this is heightened by his newtype sense. Uso from Victory doesn't really break down but he doesn't want to kill people and it's made worse by everyone around him constantly being killed.

                                                                      I haven't watched original Gundam in over 20 years and only once so I've certainly forgotten details. I remember a couple of times where he was exhausted and didn't want/couldn't fight anymore just due to pure physical fatigue. The only time I remember him leaving was when his commanders were chewing him out and saying he wasn't even a soldier and shouldn't be there in the first place. And then he took the Gundam with him.

                                                                      If you're thinking of something else I'll have to take your word on it, I don't remember much beyond the big iconic stuff that made it into the musou games.

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                                                                      • Lord Gaimon
                                                                        Lord Gaimon @Robby
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                                                                        @Robby:

                                                                        The actual premise is "you have to be fucked up psychologically and have mommy issues to pilot a giant robot".

                                                                        do you know what the word premise means? what are you even talking about here?

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                                                                        • Sakonosolo
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                                                                          @Robby:

                                                                          I haven't watched original Gundam in over 20 years and only once so I've certainly forgotten details. I remember a couple of times where he was exhausted and didn't want/couldn't fight anymore just due to pure tiredness. The only time I remember him leaving was when his commanders were chewing him out and saying he wasn't even a soldier and shouldn't be there in the first place. And then he took the Gundam with him.

                                                                          If you're thinking of something else I'll have to take your word on it, I don't remember much beyond the big iconic stuff that made it into the musou games.

                                                                          I actually looked it up because I wasn't remember too much either but Shinji didn't want to pilot the Eva because he was insecure I'm pretty sure. Not because he didn't want to kill people. Amuro refuses to pilot the Gundam because he was exhausted, yeah, which is an actual consequence of a child piloting a robot. Shinji being insecure doesn't have anything to do with "the real life consequences of a child piloting a robot" though from what I can see. Asuka is more like a typical mecha protag for most of the series and doesn't have any problems with it until she starts getting insecure of Shinji later in the series. Most of Eva actually seems to me to be focused on the psychological issues of the main characters, which exist outside of the robots and fighting. You could say that you have to have psychological issues to be a pilot, though Toji didn't. Your mom being dead doesn't mean you have to be psychological broken, and the mom's spirit being in the Eva is as far as we know the only requirement to piloting the Eva (though there is a vague selection process). They're sticking mentally ill people into stressful situations and then going "look at how broken these people are", and I don't see how that has anything to do with deconstructing mecha anime or showing the consequences of kids piloting robots since like I said these issues exist outside of the robots even if they're exacerbated by them (though actually Shinji's self esteem increases since he has something to be proud of himself for even if this doesn't hold the entire series).

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                                                                            Shinji feels useless and unloved by his father and his relatives.
                                                                            Rei is a husk of being made in mass production with Shinji's mother dna and Lilith's.
                                                                            Asuka's mother had a mental breakdown and started treating a doll as the real Asuka instead, of well Asuka, and she saw her mother's suicide or was one of the first to find the body.
                                                                            And Toji actually wanted to piilot a unit because he taught it was cool.
                                                                            So yes, all of them had a loose screw.

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                                                                              Yes, I know. Notice that none of that has anything to do with piloting the robots.

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                                                                                Evangelion is my favorite anime.

                                                                                People can spin it however they want, or try to judge it from any meta or historical perspective, but Evangelion's legacy is due to being written just so poignantly. The show understands its characters perfectly and gives them an amazing level of depth without the fear of making them become broken and cringe versions of themselves (including side characters). EVA crafts a story that takes these people to their emotional limits while managing to justify their mental exhaustion through their social relationships just as much as the "military vs angels" plot, which makes their narrative arc more intimate and humanly relevant as a piece of literature. Any depressive person can relate to the fear and pain and pusillanimity of the characters. All aspects of the storytelling are tied together neatly. The amount of chills from beginning to end is just crazy.

                                                                                I've seen people argue that Gurren Lagan or Madoka are better, but while these shows deserve their praise, the character writing doesn't come close to EVA and that's the critical difference.

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                                                                                  it's also very technically impressive, i consider it to be the best directed anime, it really elevated the medium to new heights in that department.

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                                                                                    @Sakonosolo:

                                                                                    You could say that you have to have psychological issues to be a pilot, though Toji didn't.

                                                                                    Toji never piloted an Eva.

                                                                                    He got put in one, and was then murdered.

                                                                                    Whatever qualifications he did or did not have, it didn't matter. The narrative NEVER focused on him being a pilot or how he dealt with it.

                                                                                    His purpose in the story was to fuck with Shinji and break him some more.

                                                                                    and I don't see how that has anything to do with deconstructing mecha anime or showing the consequences of kids piloting robots .

                                                                                    Because it is a work of fiction and the creators decided to put these broken characters in there in the first place.

                                                                                    The fictional characters aren't broken because they're piloting robots, they're piloting robots because they are broken.

                                                                                    They designed and created the show and the storyline to be focused on these mental issues. It wasn't a side effect, it was their goal, their thesis, their "this is how we're going to make our story different from the past ones."

                                                                                    The entire last two episodes are a non-animated still frame therapy session rather than any actual adressing of the story. With that ending, they declared that the character stuff was the only thing important in all of it, and the giant robot stuff meant nothing. The entire thing was about exploring what happens if you throw a broken, non-traditional hero into a traditional anime situation.

                                                                                    There's 26 episodes and only 15 angels in the course of the show. From the start it wasn't about the enemy of the week, or even about leading up to an ending with real resolution… they wanted to do a story about breaking everything and then skipped over the part that answered the questions and gave a any sort or traditional climax or closure.. and the fandom rightfully rioted and demanded a real ending.

                                                                                    And then that real ending had Shinji masturbating over Asuka's comatose body, Asuka getting one cool fight that was pointless in the end, Misato dying horribly, disturbing imagery, and then ended with Shinji choking Asuka.

                                                                                    They chose to put these things in there. Wrote it, storyboarded it, animated it, voiced it, spent over a year agreeing among them that was something that needed to be in there and all of that was truly the best way to give fans what they asked for, since fans didn't like the no budget couch trip ending.. .

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                                                                                      He was chosen the same way as the other pilots. He just didn't get a chance to actually do it because his Eva was hijacked by an angel.

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                                                                                      • Lord Gaimon
                                                                                        Lord Gaimon @pariston_hill
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                                                                                        @pariston_hill:

                                                                                        And Toji actually wanted to piilot a unit because he taught it was cool.

                                                                                        that's Kensuke, Toji seemed scared and nervous when he found out he was going to be a pilot.

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                                                                                        • theackwardstation
                                                                                          theackwardstation @Lord Gaimon
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                                                                                          @Lord:

                                                                                          it's also very technically impressive, i consider it to be the best directed anime, it really elevated the medium to new heights in that department.

                                                                                          I agree. Very tasteful. Excellent voice actors too (just please don't speak german, Asuka!). Iconic opening and ending. Good OST in general.

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                                                                                            Green_vs_Red @Robby
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                                                                                            @Robby:

                                                                                            His purpose in the story was to fuck with Shinji and break him some more.

                                                                                            Guess Gendo and Kaowru weren’t enough.

                                                                                            Originally Posted by Ubiq

                                                                                            I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

                                                                                            3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284

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                                                                                            • pariston_hill
                                                                                              pariston_hill @theackwardstation
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                                                                                              @theackwardstation:

                                                                                              The show understands its characters perfectly and gives them an amazing level of depth without the fear of making them become broken and cringe versions of themselves (including side characters).

                                                                                              Except Gendo, his a dick through and through.

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                                                                                              • Lord Gaimon
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                                                                                                talking to Robby

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                                                                                                @pariston_hill:

                                                                                                Except Gendo, his a dick through and through.

                                                                                                Gendo does have some depth to him (not as much as the main characters ofc), he's really stunted and awkward you could really feel he was Shinji's father in how similar they are

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                                                                                                • theackwardstation
                                                                                                  theackwardstation @pariston_hill
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                                                                                                  @pariston_hill:

                                                                                                  Except Gendo, his a dick through and through.

                                                                                                  This one already starts as a broken and cringe version of himself, lol.

                                                                                                  Just kidding, I like Gendo. His social inaptude despite being a strong leader explains the emotional mess in that environment. He's also perfect for Shinji's daddy issues, perhaps written overly harsh to make his portrayal fit Shinji's subjective and skewed point of view.

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                                                                                                    Green_vs_Red @Lord Gaimon
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                                                                                                    @Lord:

                                                                                                    talking to Robby

                                                                                                    I wasn't going to say anything but I've been pretty much casually following this thread for the last week or two. And you're really not in any position to be complaining about how difficult it is to talk to anyone

                                                                                                    Considering almost every response from you to anyone with a different opinion on Evangelion or End Of Evangelion can be summed up as either

                                                                                                    This

                                                                                                    or this

                                                                                                    Seriously like I said awhile ago if you liked all aspects of Evangelion that other people didn't that's fine but you don't need to come off as a pain in the ass when it involves disagreeing with people who didn't or saw certain aspects of the series differently than you. The fact that no one has yet called you out for this or so much as made fun of you for your hardline stance is surprising.

                                                                                                    Originally Posted by Ubiq

                                                                                                    I've often wondered about that myself; seems like being supported by people who only want you there so the world can end in fire (with you going to Hell in the process) would be somewhat off-putting

                                                                                                    3DS Friend Code 0044-2806-5284

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                                                                                                    • Demon Rin
                                                                                                      Demon Rin @Green_vs_Red
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                                                                                                      @Robby:

                                                                                                      I don't think Eva is hopeful at all, but that's what folks in here are insisting.

                                                                                                      It's bleak for the sake of bleakness.

                                                                                                      What tipped you off? Shinji masturbating to completion over Asuka's comatose body then exclaiming "I'm so fucked up"?
                                                                                                      Asuka's mom hanging herself in front of Asuka?

                                                                                                      Oooh, I know. Was it the time the apocalypse happened and we watch all the characters we'd grown to know over the series devolve into orange goo while a song plays that has the lyrics "So with sadness in my heart I feel the best thing I can do is end it all and leave forever. What's done is done it feels so bad, what once was happy now is sad. I'll never love again my world is ending!"

                                                                                                      Like, this feels incredibly on the nose here lol

                                                                                                      What interests me most about Eva and why I'm excited to see how the Rebuilds handle this is the endings. We have 3 so far and all are incredibly different in how they say Shinji came out of the depression and psychological damage he went through.

                                                                                                      One he comes out hopeful. A ray of light cutting through the bleakness.
                                                                                                      Another he comes out a bitter malicious husk of a human being who wants the world to suffer like he did and tries to strangle the first person he sees after.
                                                                                                      The third is hopeful again with him genuinely wanting to feel joy and actually shows things maybe worked out for him.

                                                                                                      I think it's incredibly fascinating how Anno's frame of mind and feelings changed between productions and now with literal decades behind the original series, I'm excited to see how Rebuild comes out.

                                                                                                      But what do I know, I'm apparently an idiot who knows nothing about this series.

                                                                                                      @Green_vs_Red:

                                                                                                      I wasn't going to say anything but I've been pretty much casually following this thread for the last week or two. And you're really not in any position to be complaining about how difficult it is to talk to anyone

                                                                                                      Considering almost every response from you to anyone with a different opinion on Evangelion or End Of Evangelion can be summed up as either

                                                                                                      This

                                                                                                      [qimg]https://giffiles.alphacoders.com/497/49797.gif[/qimg]

                                                                                                      or this

                                                                                                      [qimg]https://media3.giphy.com/media/3o6wrvdHFbwBrUFenu/200.gif[/qimg]

                                                                                                      Seriously like I said awhile ago if you liked all aspects of Evangelion that other people didn't that's fine but you don't need to come off as a pain in the ass when it involves disagreeing with people who didn't or saw certain aspects of the series differently than you. The fact that no one has yet called you out for this or so much as made fun of you for your hardline stance is surprising.

                                                                                                      I've just decided to disengage since it's obvious he's not actually engaging with anything I'm saying. He latches onto his interpretation of things and then refuses to see anything else.

                                                                                                      I give a quote where someone says to Anno "This has to do with the fact that you ended up spending all your money…" and then Anno goes onto how he hopes the Staff he wasn't able to fully pay got some satisfaction out of the work. He responds "Well, that's not what they meant".

                                                                                                      He says he thinks EoE was 100% the original plan because of some preview images in an earlier episode lining up with some of the stuff that happens in EoE, and I reply saying those previews only prove that some of the basic story beats were planned, but not that Shinji's characterization and the result of his breakdown and that is specifically what was changed... He responds with "Well, I already proved EoE was the original plan so that's wrong"

                                                                                                      Then he proceeds to act like a smug jackass that knows this series better than us and acts like Robby and I are idiots who know nothing about this series and then has the GAUL to say WE'RE the ones acting smug by "playing" ourselves off as "Teachers".

                                                                                                      Like, oh hey, what's this? a photo of my Platinum edition DVDs in a thread where I explained in detail my issues with the Netflix dub? Could it be I actually know what I'm fucking talking about?!?!

                                                                                                      Yeah, I'm mad and it's clear nothing's will come of me continuing this mad.

                                                                                                      Switch Friend Code: SW-1795-2519-1884 • Click Here to check out my Twitch Channel

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                                                                                                      • Robby
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                                                                                                        Yeah, I'm pretty done. I'm willing to have a dialogue and a discussion about the pros and cons and what someone else might see and appreciate about it that I don't but… this isn't that conversation.

                                                                                                        @Demon:

                                                                                                        What tipped you off? Shinji masturbating to completion over Asuka's comatose body then exclaiming "I'm so fucked up"?

                                                                                                        Let's be fair.

                                                                                                        That line was ad-libbed in the dub.

                                                                                                        In the Japanese he says "I am the lowest of the low."

                                                                                                        Which is much more nuanced and open to interpretation and….

                                                                                                        yeah, he's still jerking off over Asuka's braindead near-corpse.

                                                                                                        But, but, it's only natural for a young man to need to relieve stress, and he was trying to form a connection, and Shinji was certainly stressed there! Anyone would have upon seeing one bare breast of one of their only friends!

                                                                                                        No wait. It's philosophical!

                                                                                                        This physical expression of Shinji's desire for Asuka's body matters because Asuka is frustrated with Shinji because that's exactly what she wants from Shinji but he is incapable of providing that for her when she is conscious. The masturbation scene validates Asuka's frustration with Shinji. Yeah, that's the point of it!

                                                                                                        Wait, I know! By doing that, at the end of the film, when everyone merges minds, Asuka can see what SHinji did and know that he actually does have the hots for her! So that when they're then reformed into real bodies she can be disgusted by him while he tries to strangle her to death! It's just his way of showing intimacy that he can't express!

                                                                                                        What about that earlier fantasy sequence where all the main girls appeared naked in front of SHinji and propositioned him? Surely that is relvent! And uh...

                                                                                                        Yeah, there's no way to make that scene in any way acceptable. I can even go as far as to buy "Shinji jerking off was important for the narrative of the movie" because themes of loneliness or whatever. But why over Asuka's lifeless body?

                                                                                                        It's either pure shock value, character assassination, or a criticism of the fans that found the characters hot... pick your poison.

                                                                                                        ( you know, the same characters the show kept putting into sexy poses and making innuendos about to tease with and sell naked merchandise of, cause lol, fanservice. )

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