Do you believe in fate/destiny

[Sea]

My bad. I mistyped. The first choice is "Yes I do"
–---
Well

Life is like a fucking manga with complicated plot and hard-to-follow narrative. I like the ideas, but the execution suck. Sometime I want to slap the author. If he exists, no?
Our thoughts aren't shown to us in a thought bubble. But, hell, are they planned too, by a force beyond us?
A little change in a small action could drive your life to complete different direction, meet someone so important to you. Is what you do predetermined?
The universe and everything that has happened it it, are they created by themselves, or a power above them?
Is life simply a system of chances and coincidences, resulted by countless actions of countless minds, or already decided from the beginning by something else? Something that controlled every particles in the cosmos?

I wouldn't say I cared much about things like fate, because I strongly disbelieved it before without much regard, until I saw Oda talked about it with a passion. Not that I believe in fate now, but that had me wonder. Still, for what I was unable to achieve in life, in me I blame.
This thread is about determinism. Discuss.

[gofish]

its not that i don't believe in it but rather i just live my life without giving a second thought to why things happen to me.

[Sea]

@gofish:

its not that i don't believe in it but rather i just live my life without giving a second thought to why things happen to me.

Well, Oda does. He got sent to hospital and then people tell him he got a Tezuka award. He said after that he begin to think about the truth of universe.
http://www.onemanga.com/Wanted_Oda_Eiichiro_Tanpenshu/1/36/

[Don Quichotte De Flamingo]

i think that you can chance it with your own power..
but in my eyes you sure meet some special people, have to go through some actions, which chances your life and create your character in the end..
but seeing it as your fate to go through shit is just idiotic…
i mean some ways sure are a hard fate(like being a poor child in a 3rd world country) but in general i believe in what i said.

[Airflow101]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism

Basically tis an ancient theory based on the fact that everything we know of in this universe is made of matter or energy. Eventually science will be able to work out how all this matter and energy corresponds to each other, they'll be able to discover all the physical laws of the universe. So in the far distant future we could hypothetically invent a machine that records every single thing in a room, turns it into data and then works out what will happen one second in the future by seeing how the things in the room correspond and react. A sufficently powerful machine could do the same thing for the far distant future by repeatedly analyzing it's new data and re-examining it. Problem is that we human's are, as far as we know, also built entirely of matter or energy so are actions in the future could also theoretically be predicted by this machine. But how can we possibly claim to have free will if a machine knows what we'll be doing 5 minutes before we actually do it?

So yeah, 3 answers:

1. You accept it. This is boring

2. You assert that there is something non-physical in your body, such as a soul, which governs your thoughts and feelings. This isn't affected by events in the physical world and thus can make decisions freely. Also know as dualism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interactionist_dualism . Problem is, how does something with no physical properties have physical effects? In normal thinking when I move a neturon fires in my brain that causes me to get up and walk about. But in Dualism no neutron is fired, in fact nothing in the physical realm moves. So how do my limbs get the signal to move? There are numerous other arguments, both for and against it which can be looked at on the wiki page if you're interested.

3)You assert that on a sub-atomic scale all things in the universe rely on random chance, citing observations made in quantum mechanics. At the moment we can only predict what will probably happen down on the sub-atomic level, which means we can only predict what will probably happen at a normal level, due to our observational data there being derived from things that generally happen on the sub-atomic level. We are unable to fully assert what will occyr which means that my machine won't be able to fully assert what will occur, at least at this time. The problem with this is that some scientists say that the reason we can't accurately predict what's going to happen is because of hidden factors that we are unaware of at this point. In the future we may well have knowledge of these hidden factors which will allow my machine to predicts things accurately. Anyway, even if you don't believe there are hidden factors think of what you are asserting with this theory. You're saying that all are decisions and thoughts derive from randomly interacting particles that we cannot predict and have no control over. But if we cannot control them then how can we control our decisions?

So basically you either have no free will, you have a non corporeal entity inside of you or your decisions are totally random.

[Zyordius]

^Wow, nice. Just the fact that it was posted makes me smile.

[Roz the Zen Nada]

Fate is among the dumbest concepts mankind has produced.

[IrishLuigi]

@Roz:

Fate is among the dumbest concepts mankind has produced.

Well, YOUR mom's dumb.

DISCLAIMER: I don't believe in fate, let me make that clear.

[Sanigo]

If One Piece of all things pushed you towards believing in fate then you're thematically fucking clueless.

[Roz the Zen Nada]

One Piece is absolutely all about pre-destination and determinism, it's ultimate message revolves around the idea of people being unable to change anything at all, slaves to the iron will of history.

[Nobodyman]

@Roz:

One Piece is absolutely all about pre-destination and determinism, it's ultimate message revolves around the idea of people being unable to change anything at all, slaves to the iron will of history.

I think you're thinking of Naruto.

[Roz the Zen Nada]

@Nobodyman:

I think you're thinking of Naruto.

Naruto is the exact opposite. It focuses in on the ability to use nothing but the powers granted by genetics, lineage, nepotism, and ancient demonic powers sealed within you to make your blank slate of birth into the sort of life that moves mountains.

[Sea]

@Sanigo:

If One Piece of all things pushed you towards believing in fate then you're thematically fucking clueless.

I still don't say I believe in fate, but neither claim there is not fate. It's like "is there god?". No one could prove it exist and no one could prove it's doesn't exist.

[Sai-chan]

I'm not sure if I believe in fate. It's an interesting idea, but it also makes me wanna punch a baby when someone says 'it is my destiny!' I guess I believe that you make your own destiny, and not that something is already pre-decided for you.

[Dwragon]

Theyre are a few positions: -
-determined and no free will (hard determinism, than is this writing also determined and so all wil lhappen like it happens, philosophically not very interesting, nothing can change) like Laplace
-determined and free will like David Hume
-not determined and free will like Van Inwagen

• a few variants of above and one with a little agnosticism

So a hard determinism can go with every system (naruto, one piece), but it is irrelevant because it simply doesnot change anything.

I believe in determined (in a special way of an all-knowing god) and free will.

[Sea]

King Arthur:

Knights! The gift of freedom is yours by right. But the home we seek resides not in some distant land. It's in us! And in our actions on this day! If this be our destiny, then so be it. But let history remember that as free men, we chose to make it so.

Rule your destiny!

Destiny, in this sense, just mean life.
The so-called natural talent, or gift, and determination, will-power, which someone is born with, is it fate?

[Wagomu]

If you could freeze the universe from the beginning, had perfect knowledge of the processes that govern it, spent time examining every individual aspect of it and infinitely analyzed how they would act in the scenarios they're in as well as the resulting scenarios, you could probably predict everything.

[Arei]

I beleive everything of great significance (like some of the people we meet, stuff that happens to us, even down to the way we die) happens for a reason.

Keeps me from thinking life is unfair or life should be how I want it to be. Life is life. Shit happens, yada yada yada.

I just upset myself and stress myself out bad trying to have a self centered view of the universe and try to break down aspects of life into logic. It's stupid. Change what you can change, accept what you can't, and live your life to the fullest.

What is the point of trying to analyze and waste energy over trying to disprove things like fate and God? Believe it or not and go on with your life, the people that might be pushing these beliefs aren't you 9/10 aren't really the great people they claim to beleive, so just go on and live life on your own path.

[Roz the Zen Nada]

@The:

I still don't say I believe in fate, but neither claim claim there is not fate. It's like "is there god?". No one could prove it exist and no one could prove it's doesn't exist.

Occam's Razor bitch.

[Wagomu]

@Arei:

I beleive everything of great significance (like some of the people we meet, stuff that happens to us, even down to the way we die) happens for a reason.

Keeps me from thinking life is unfair or life should be how I want it to be. Life is life. Shit happens, yada yada yada.

Wait a minute… Can't life only be unfair if there's a reason for everything?

[Arei]

@Wagomu:

Wait a minute… Can't life only be unfair if there's a reason for everything?

This is the line of thinking that I addressed was stupid. And it makes no sense either.

We have moments that aren't in our favor, but again that's part of life.

[MmmBug]

After much thought and considering either way, I came to the conclusion that I just don't know.

Funny how I thought that was the most truthful answer and I'm the only one who picked it. ^^;

[GaaraofTheDesert]

No I dont believe in faith ! Faith is for the retards…you can do whatever you want and become succesful if you want to and try.

[Arei]

Faith can't give you whatever you want or allow you to be successful, that's not what it's about. You can have faith and still be a successful person.

God doesn't shoot out awesome beams from his fingertips that allow us to be smart, successful, and happy. We have to create those things for ourselves.

Hard works goes together with faith, it isn't created from it.

And you can work your ass off, gain the world then lose it all. Shit happens, but it doesn't mean a lack of faith/belief in fate caused it.

We can't control the world around us, only ourselves. Stuff comes along our path that sometimes change/alter the scope of our lives. Those are the things I beleive are "fated" to happen.

[Wagomu]

@Arei:

This is the line of thinking that I addressed was stupid. And it makes no sense either.

We have moments that aren't in our favor, but again that's part of life.

I'm just thinking about this logically. Fairness implies that there's some universal system in place by which things can be fair. If things occur no reason there is nothing fair or unfair. Just a bunch of arbitrary events.

[Arei]

Yeah, which is why I don't really believe too much in life being fair/unfair, because everyone has a different sense of "fairness". What is fair for someone might not necessarily mean the same thing for someone else. It's another thing left to opinion.

[IrishLuigi]

@Wagomu:

If you could freeze the universe from the beginning, had perfect knowledge of the processes that govern it, spent time examining every individual aspect of it and infinitely analyzed how they would act in the scenarios they're in as well as the resulting scenarios, you could probably predict everything.

That's a good one. I thought fate would change if you met a person who could actually see the future, but then again, that thing you mentioned would also put into account their meeting. But that would be a paradox - will the foreseer see the same future as the thing you mentioned, or would he see the future befor… giljsdfbgiljsknfbvsxcxx

[Gaimon]

I believe that God has something in store for all of us, but at the same time we have the ability to control our destiny..

[Keane]

I believe that fate will choose my destiny, and that my destiny is to find out that fate is infact fake, harsh life…

[Malintex_Terek]

If it exists, I hate it. If it doesn't exist, good, 'cause I hate the idea.

[Roz the Zen Nada]

@Gaimon:

I believe that God has something in store for all of us, but at the same time we have the ability to control our destiny..

I too believe in complete paradoxes.

[Gaimon]

Sorry if I sounded confusing xD, I just meant that as we control our own lives, God at the same time, already knows what will be the outcome of the choices we make.

[Roz the Zen Nada]

@Gaimon:

Sorry if I sounded confusing xD, I just meant that as we control our own lives, God at the same time, already knows what will be the outcome of the choices we make.

Duuuurrr me no think metaphysics through.

[Zyordius]

@Gaimon:

Sorry if I sounded confusing xD, I just meant that as we control our own lives, God at the same time, already knows what will be the outcome of the choices we make.

Which God are you referring to? Christian? Islam?Jewish?Mormon?

[IrishLuigi]

@Zyordius:

Which God are you referring to? Christian? Islam?Jewish?Mormon?

lol, all of them have the same Abrahamic God.

pleasereligiouspeopledonotlecturemeifiamwrong

[Zarnikon]

As a Muslim I believe in what is stated in the Quran and what the prophet said.
i.e. That all humans have a free will and decide things themselfs but that God already knows what will happen, and that it is already decided if they go to hell or to the paradise.

The concept is quite easy, we all have a free will, but God knows how we are going to act because He created us, He knows how we think, our physical limits, our mental limits so He is able te predict what we will do in the future.

[choperman]

well i'd like to believe in it but that would mean i'd have to accept that some peoples destiny was to get raped, killed, beaten, to lose everything right in front of there eyes, and all the other horrible shit that's happened to humans was destined by some greater force that apparently doesn't give a shit about them and if i want to believe in a higher power i'd rather that power, person or what ever you want to call it have fun by making people have horrible lives

[Zyordius]

@IrishLuigi:

lol, all of them have the same Abrahamic God.

pleasereligiouspeopledonotlecturemeifiamwrong

No lecture, just they all have their own version.

[Palochka]

Nope, I don't. But we all die anyways, so it doesn't matter.

[MmmBug]

I don't want to get into a god dispute so I'll try not to get into it to deeply.

Say you create a bunch of things with free will and allow them to interact with each other. Lets say they are self learning artifical intelligence humanoids.

Can you predict, can you already know from the start everything they will do? Of course not. This is exactly like god.

God made everything because he/she/entity was bored and wanted something to watch/look at, and is also like you creating the AI humanoids.

The entity we call god, who I believe is Yahweh(just my personal belief I don't want to argue it), was also created by something else but I'm not going into 4th and 5th etc etc dimensions. ^^;

[Wagomu]

@MmmBug:

Can you predict, can you already know from the start everything they will do? Of course not. This is exactly like god.

@Wagomu:

If you could freeze the universe from the beginning, had perfect knowledge of the processes that govern it, spent time examining every individual aspect of it and infinitely analyzed how they would act in the scenarios they're in as well as the resulting scenarios, you could probably predict everything.

Of course no entity would care THAT much, but I'm sure it's entirely possible. For the record, I don't believe that there is any such nonsense as fate or destiny, but the events of the universe can probably be logically inferred.

[Zyordius]

@MmmBug:

I don't want to get into a god dispute so I'll try not to get into it to deeply.

God made everything because he/she/entity was bored

Imo, change happens through all universes/dimensions constantly, "bored" seems to be a poor choice of words. That's taking a boundless ocean and making it sound like a puddle.

[MmmBug]

Okay, maybe not bored so to speak, how about more for entertainment?

Which also ties into, if you know everything about something why bother creating it?

The only reason you would create something such as the universe would be to learn and observe.

Basically, god is a scientist and we and everything else are an experiment. rofl xD

[Zyordius]

@MmmBug:

Okay, maybe not bored so to speak, how about more for entertainment?

:getlost:
Still a puddle.

[Sakonosolo]

Has anyone else pointed out that the first 2 choices are basically the same thing ?

I somewhat believe in it. I think we all have a destiny but environmental factors and the like can upset that destiny. Such as we were talking about in Government (for some reason), someone might be destined to be a famous musician but if they're never exposed to the things that will make him able to become a musician then he won't.

[MetaMario]

@Kairouseki:

Has anyone else pointed out that the first 2 choices are basically the same thing ?

Lol, The Sea pointed out that he screwed up the spelling in his first post.

[Roz the Zen Nada]

@Zarnikon:

As a Muslim I believe in what is stated in the Quran and what the prophet said.
i.e. That all humans have a free will and decide things themselfs but that God already knows what will happen, and that it is already decided if they go to hell or to the paradise.

The concept is quite easy, we all have a free will, but God knows how we are going to act because He created us, He knows how we think, our physical limits, our mental limits so He is able te predict what we will do in the future.

No seriously this doesn't make any sense at all.

[Sea]

@MetaMario:

Lol, The Sea pointed out that he screwed up the spelling in his first post.

Yep, a mistyping. I hoped no one voted before reading the first post.
Well, if the mods can't fix the choice, at least they could add "(first choice is mistyped)" to the tiitle.

[Gaimon]

@Zyordius:

Which God are you referring to? Christian? Islam?Jewish?Mormon?

The God worshipped in the Abrahamic religions, in Arabic, we Muslims call him Allah.

@Roz:

Duuuurrr me no think metaphysics through.

Well I see no point trying to convince spiritual understanding to you..

[Zyordius]

@Gaimon:

Well I see no point trying to convince religious understanding to you..

Fixed that for ya.