Change your definition.
No.
So if WB doesn't die but the majority of his crew does would his group not have still fallen?
Change your definition.
No.
So if WB doesn't die but the majority of his crew does would his group not have still fallen?
@Zik:
I guess the definition of "fall" in this war differs between me and you.
IMO half of those fodder marines, a couple vice admirals, 2 of the 3 admirals all dead and/or a dead Sengoku = a fall. The marines are the active force policing piracy in the world. Part of the world powers.
It's no different than if the majority of WB's crew died except for him. That's still a fall in this war.
Just because the likes of Smoker and Coby remain alive doesn't mean the marines can not fall.
Does anybody have to die? This fight is on Marineford afterall.
@Zik:
The WG isn't fighting this war. It'd be very different if they were(Every kingdom's army lending a hand in this).
All you did was repeat what you said earlier and I can give my same reply lol.
The current shichibukai can all die here. The WG will just set up a new group. Hence, they have so many replacements. I don't know why you think the shichi falling means the WG would have to fall
Other than you believing the story will go this way is there anything you can bring up pointing to why the marines can't fall in this war?
Shichibukai are always replaced, but more pirates will roam lose without them. The WG won't fall but let's leave that part to dragon.
@Zik:
No.
Then I can't help you.
So if WB doesn't die but the majority of his crew does would his group not have still fallen?
Exactly.
Just like had Usopp actually left there'd still be a Strawhat Pirates. If Luffy is gone that's a different story.
Then I can't help you.
Definitely didn't ask for it.
Exactly.
Just like had Usopp actually left there'd still be a Strawhat Pirates. If Luffy is gone that's a different story.
Severely flawed logic. Bad comparison too. You're trying to parallel one SH member leaving to the majority of WB pirates dying and say as long as WB is around the group didn't fall?
I guess Japan didn't fall to the U.S. in WW2 then.
@Dojo:
Does anybody have to die? This fight is on Marineford afterall.
Well it is a war but if we're working under the stipulation that nobody dies then the word "fall" doesn't apply at all because even if one group has a bunch of members severely wounded they can always heal except for the chance that one side is crippled for life but then again given that Oda has said being handicapped hasn't weakened a yonkou I guess any side crippled wouldn't be weakened either.
I don't see the significance of pointing out the location of this war in regards to why anyone has to die btw.
@Narutossss:
Shichibukai are always replaced, but more pirates will roam lose without them. The WG won't fall but let's leave that part to dragon.
WG isn't fighting this war, ofcourse they won't fall.
You said exactly what I said about the shichi. I don't get it. They'll always be replaced. Only problem is the frequency of them being replaced which would downgrade the status the names gives them.
@Zik:
Definitely didn't ask for it.
Rawr.
Severely flawed logic. Bad comparison too. You're trying to parallel one SH member leaving to the majority of WB pirates dying and say as long as WB is around the group didn't fall?
I guess Japan didn't fall to the U.S. in WW2 then.
Japan is still there isn't it.
Rawr.
Japan is still there isn't it.
So fall = wiped off the face of existence to you? LMAO
I was considering the fall in this war to be a fall from power.
I seriously prefer my definition over yours.
The "fall" of the Roman empire is when the Roman empire ceased to exist. I agree with Vanessa. You have a bad definition of the word.
The people don't have to be wiped out, the organization does so that it doesn't exist as an isn't the same organization anymore (or had the head chopped off of it so that it has to be rebuilt from scratch at the very least).
In any case, a few dead admirals shouldn't constitute a "fall" when a system is in place to replace them. The organization itself remains in tact.
The "fall" of the Roman empire is when the Roman empire ceased to exist. I agree with Vanessa. You have a bad definition of the word.
The people don't have to be wiped out, the organization does so that it doesn't exist as an organization anymore (or had the head chopped off of it so that it has to be rebuilt from scratch at the very least).
Yea so if all of the WB pirates die except for WB is that not a fall? but to you if WB is the only one that dies and Ace just becomes captain that would be considered a fall?
Also which roman Empire are you talking about Western or Eastern?
@Zik:
Yea so if all of the WB pirates die except for WB is that not a fall? but to you if WB is the only one that dies and Ace just becomes captain that would be considered a fall?
If Whitebeard dies and the "Whitebeard Pirates" cease to exist and reform as some other group, then the "Whitebeard Pirates" have fallen. If half the members die and the "Whitebeard Pirates" live on, then they have suffered losses, and you could say that they've stumbled, but they haven't fallen.
EDIT: I would say that the division itself was the beginning of the fall, since it, in a way, destroyed the organization for what it was. I'm no history major though and I'm not really qualified to get into the details of it.
If Whitebeard dies and the "Whitebeard Pirates" cease to exist and reform as some other group, then the "Whitebeard Pirates" have fallen. If half the members die and the "Whitebeard Pirates" live on, then they have suffered losses, and you could say that they've stumbled, but they haven't fallen.
I knew this and didn't ask it.
@Zik:
Other than you believing the story will go this way is there anything you can bring up pointing to why the marines can't fall in this war?
Coby, Smoker and Garp among many others.
Not that hard to see why.
@Zik:
I guess the definition of "fall" in this war differs between me and you.
IMO half of those fodder marines, a couple vice admirals, 2 of the 3 admirals all dead and/or a dead Sengoku = a fall. The marines are the active force policing piracy in the world. Part of the world powers.
It's no different than if the majority of WB's crew died except for him. That's still a fall in this war.
Just because the likes of Smoker and Coby remain alive doesn't mean the marines can not fall.
Change your definition.
The "fall" of the Roman empire is when the Roman empire ceased to exist. I agree with Vanessa. You have a bad definition of the word.
The people don't have to be wiped out, the organization does so that it
doesn't exist as anisn't the same organization anymore (or had the head chopped off of it so that it has to be rebuilt from scratch at the very least).
You're hopeless if you can't figure the answer out from what I said. If WB alone dies and Ace takes over and the name is no longer "The Whitebeard Pirates" then yes, they've fallen. If just WB is left alive, he can't really be "The Whitebeard Pirates" anymore, so yes, they've fallen. He could resurrect them if he was still alive, though, by starting over.
You're hopeless if you can't figure the answer out from what I said. If WB alone dies and Ace takes over and the name is no longer "The Whitebeard Pirates" then yes, they've fallen. If just WB is left alive, he can't really be "The Whitebeard Pirates" anymore, so yes, they've fallen. He could resurrect them if he was still alive, though, by starting over.
I would've preferred you to simply answer it. I didn't know it would've been so painstaking.
I was trying to generalize for the sake of the definition of the word. As long as the Marines still exist, they didn't fall.
And with that, I'm regretting getting myself into this silly argument. What was I thinking? I just now decided that I don't care enough to continue this further.
If WB alone dies and Ace takes over and the name is no longer "The Whitebeard Pirates" then yes, they've fallen. If just WB is left alive, he can't really be "The Whitebeard Pirates" anymore, so yes, they've fallen. He could resurrect them if he was still alive, though, by starting over.
You get it for the most part.
Sweet, I won a gif.
(I will forever be jealous of the wide array of gifs you have available).
How amusing
<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="
"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowScriptAccess" value="always"><embed src=" " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" allowscriptaccess="always" width="425" height="344"></object>Lol, that looks staged. It would be really very amusing to see from the other side of the room, though.
I'm more curious as to why he took off his shirt to slap another man.
Impressive gif.
It seems to me that Oda has been setting this whole war up as Whitebeard's last hurrah. What with his failing health (he doesn't seem that bad off from here) and the increasing focus on the new age of pirates. If Whitebeard were to win this war and obliterate the World Government, where would the story go from there? That turn of events would kill off so many different ongoing story threads in the One Piece world. Personally I'm banking on the World Government 'winning' this thing. Whitebeard's death would certainly cause chaos for the One Piece world, but it's a more manageable chaos. At least that's the way it seems to me. Knowing Oda though some shocking twist will come out of left field that will leave us all wondering why we hadn't thought of that possibility.
I'm more curious as to why he took off his shirt to slap another man.
The T-Shirt is white .. Imagine blood stains on a white shirt won't come off that easily!
I was trying to generalize for the sake of the definition of the word. As long as the Marines still exist, they didn't fall.
And with that, I'm regretting getting myself into this silly argument. What was I thinking? I just now decided that I don't care enough to continue this further.
marines can exist as entities,but what if in this war they loose ships,offices,comunications,lot of members,the use of tarai current,every thing that made them a military force?like the roman empire u mentioned,its fallen but can u tell every single citizen or soldier of the roman empire been killed?
You're hopeless if you can't figure the answer out from what I said. If WB alone dies and Ace takes over and the name is no longer "The Whitebeard Pirates" then yes, they've fallen. If just WB is left alive, he can't really be "The Whitebeard Pirates" anymore, so yes, they've fallen. He could resurrect them if he was still alive, though, by starting over.
if WB dies, they are still WB pirates
when will chapter 554 be released does anyone know
also WB should have smashed aokiji before he freezes his attack that way all things would have been easier
If you think the Marines will lose and fall you're gay.
also if WG falls that means chaos in this world, while most of the pirates are vicious and kills-tortures innocent
I doubt WB wants that
White Beard main objective is to rescue Ace, Luffy is probably the one who will do it. Nobody expect him to be there because fighting WB is the Marine main priority in this war. If Ace is safe and WB subordinate see their father injure or whatever they probably will retreat.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/395/09/
Look the the elder star down in the corner, man he really must be going in for the role. He really fooled me into thinking that this wasnt really how they wanted it to go down.
I mean the notion that all they did was some sort of elaborate farce is just strange, for whom would they act that play out if they planned on killing everyone all along?
I think well be seeing people who genuinly belive in what theyre doing, and have had to take some hard decisions in their life. Not all of them were things to be proud of. Would be the best way to show its not all black and white. Its not this guy is a good guy and this is a bad one(note the black top hat and dastardly mustache)
Who's arguing good intentions, what im arguing is more like that there is no clear cut good or bad, sometimes a good person will do bad things. Or vice-versa, the world goverment isnt just a group of people sitting in a room talking about what act of unmitigated evil shall be done today.
Oh and is Vanessa mocking me or agreeing, in context of the movie is should be some what insincere but i really cant tell.
Not disagreeing with you, I decided to quote you to say this with everyone: in the world of One Piece, Evil and Good are viewed in a colorful fashion. Most stories would make Good and Evil like this:
Good: Beautiful/Shiny/White
Evil: Ugly/Smelly/Black
But in One Piece, it's like this
Good and Bad: it can be ethier Beautiful or Ugly, or Smelly or Shiny or whatever.
One Piece is not like Intheritance Cycle where Evil is always Evil, World Government does not always have to be Evil, they can have reedeming quilties. Just pointing it out
The "fall" of the Roman empire is when the Roman empire ceased to exist. I agree with Vanessa. You have a bad definition of the word.
The people don't have to be wiped out, the organization does so that it
doesn't exist as anisn't the same organization anymore (or had the head chopped off of it so that it has to be rebuilt from scratch at the very least).In any case, a few dead admirals shouldn't constitute a "fall" when a system is in place to replace them. The organization itself remains in tact.
And if fall means wiped out, then I guess Japan would be an empty land, would it not?
I say this is going to be lead to Whitebeard's death before…. and I will say it again..... Whitebeard is going to die here or fatally hurt....either way, he is DEAD. But I don't think the World Government is going to get off with just a slap on the wrist............ probably both sides will get crippled.......
So, the balance of power is going to crumble on both sides of the scale.... the yonkou would only left one with full strength..... while the other 3 would have been crippled..... then there is the other side of the spectrum... the Marines and the World Government....... I doubt they are not going sustain heavy losses....... even with the 3 supreme admiral around........... they are probably going to lose lots of their strength......and the 5 old geezers would probably do some insane thing like bringing out their real plains for the world earlier than schedule....
While the Shichibukai would really be disbanded.... as you can see, Boa is already almost ready to become a Straw Hat...... (yes, she will. I hope you all naysayers and pessimist can stop saying she won't.) Oda might just surprise you......and I know even if Oda is right and you are wrong, you all are probably not going say you were wrong...... or something like that...
@Zik:
Well it is a war but if we're working under the stipulation that nobody dies then the word "fall" doesn't apply at all because even if one group has a bunch of members severely wounded they can always heal except for the chance that one side is crippled for life but then again given that Oda has said being handicapped hasn't weakened a yonkou I guess any side crippled wouldn't be weakened either.
What I was talking about earlier was significance that this battle is on Marineford. Since Ennies was mostly destroyed, and Impel had a giant breakout, if Marineford is ruined that's all three of them (the center of WG's powers of justice). Just these forts count for a lot on its own without any loss of lives, the WG and Marines would be "crippled" in more ways than one.
I say this is going to be lead to Whitebeard's death before…. and I will say it again..... Whitebeard is going to die here or fatally hurt....either way, he is DEAD. But I don't think the World Government is going to get off with just a slap on the wrist............ probably both sides will get crippled.......
So, the balance of power is going to crumble on both sides of the scale.... the yonkou would only left one with full strength..... while the other 3 would have been crippled..... then there is the other side of the spectrum... the Marines and the World Government....... I doubt they are not going sustain heavy losses....... even with the 3 supreme admiral around........... they are probably going to lose lots of their strength......and the 5 old geezers would probably do some insane thing like bringing out their real plains for the world earlier than schedule....
While the Shichibukai would really be disbanded.... as you can see, Boa is already almost ready to become a Straw Hat...... (yes, she will. I hope you all naysayers and pessimist can stop saying she won't.) Oda might just surprise you......and I know even if Oda is right and you are wrong, you all are probably not going say you were wrong...... or something like that...
Agreed with almost everything here. I can't help but to feel if anybody dies here, it will be Whitebeard. Whitebeard represents the current age of pirates, and the "new age" will begin (or begin to begin) soon.
The Shichibukai I think though, it can be reduced but it can also be replaced. As long as the WG needs some forces of anti-piracy, there will always be something like the Shichibukai.
Oh, and I think Boa's odds are low. But she does have the best odds right now… Nothing against her~.
A question: What is, if WB die, but the WB pirates retreat in order after ace is freed? Are they still recognized as a yonkou or rather yonkou-like organisazion? They will still have a lot of super-powerfull guys, connections to many new world pirates and an awesome reputation after surviving an all out war with the government. There would nevertheless be chaos on a lot of islands (fishman island) and a starting struggle for the position of strongest man in the world (no way that WB will be defeated by a single person). But the balance of powers would be roughly intact, even if all three powers are weakened.
A question: What is, if WB die, but the WB pirates retreat in order after ace is freed? Are they still recognized as a yonkou or rather yonkou-like organisazion? They will still have a lot of super-powerfull guys, connections to many new world pirates and an awesome reputation after surviving an all out war with the government. There would nevertheless be chaos on a lot of islands (fishman island) and a starting struggle for the position of strongest man in the world (no way that WB will be defeated by a single person). But the balance of powers would be roughly intact, even if all three powers are weakened.
The Yonkou are the "four rulers". It refers to 4 specific pirate captains who are the strongest. Now, if theoretically Whitebeard is replaced by Ace (or whoever), maybe that person is considered a Yankou, but I don't know if they can be considered an organization at all, just the extent that pirates rule the grand line.
Its shame that Franky didnt see the sky…
You're hopeless if you can't figure the answer out from what I said. If WB alone dies and Ace takes over and the name is no longer "The Whitebeard Pirates" then yes, they've fallen. If just WB is left alive, he can't really be "The Whitebeard Pirates" anymore, so yes, they've fallen. He could resurrect them if he was still alive, though, by starting over.
I don't see ace taken over anyway, he doesn't seem to be the second strongest in the crew anyway.
If WB dies the only one that can take over in my opinion is Marco since he is the 2nd in command or whatever..but i don't see WB dieing.
Why the fuck can't we get early spoilers!!!!!
@Dojo:
What I was talking about earlier was significance that this battle is on Marineford. Since Ennies was mostly destroyed, and Impel had a giant breakout, if Marineford is ruined that's all three of them (the center of WG's powers of justice). Just these forts count for a lot on its own without any loss of lives, the WG and Marines would be "crippled" in more ways than one.
Oh I see but I can see the marines winning and Marineford being destroyed in the process.
Oda doesn't mind fucking shit up at all.
Marineford gets destroyed so what. ID isn't destroyed at all. As far as the marines base goes I'm sure they got a secondary spot in the NW.
I don't see ace taken over anyway, he doesn't seem to be the second strongest in the crew anyway.
I just said Ace to say it. It's not at all the point. Marco, Jozu, the ghost of Thatch it doesn't matter in regards to what I was saying.
While the Shichibukai would really be disbanded…. as you can see, Boa is already almost ready to become a Straw Hat...... (yes, she will. I hope you all naysayers and pessimist can stop saying she won't.) Oda might just surprise you......and I know even if Oda is right and you are wrong, you all are probably not going say you were wrong...... or something like that...
Shut up you raving mad idiot.
marines can exist as entities,but what if in this war they loose ships,offices,comunications,lot of members,the use of tarai current,every thing that made them a military force?like the roman empire u mentioned,its fallen but can u tell every single citizen or soldier of the roman empire been killed?
It has nothing to do with all the soldiers dying, it has to do with the organization no longer existing as an organization. The Marines wont "fall" (be destroyed as an organization) because they're needed for the story.
if WB dies, they are still WB pirates
Why? They'd almost certainly go with a new name if Whitebeard was no longer there to lead them.
@joekido:
And if fall means wiped out, then I guess Japan would be an empty land, would it not?
No, fall doesn't mean wiped out (why does this keep coming up?). Japan "fell" because the terms of their surrender was to replace their government. It has nothing to do with being wiped out.
Seriously, do people not bother reading what I type?
@Zik:
I just said Ace to say it. It's not at all the point. Marco, Jozu, the ghost of Thatch it doesn't matter in regards to what I was saying.
Good, we're starting to agree on something, at least.
Good, we're starting to agree on something, at least.
I should be clear about what I was arguing about with Vanessa. It wasn't so much so that my definition of a fall is the only one and hers was wrong. I was arguing what constitutes a fall given this situation. You seemed to at least see there's several ways for an organized group to fall.
@Zik:
I should be clear about what I was arguing about with Vanessa. It wasn't so much so that my definition of a fall is the only one and hers was wrong. I was arguing what constitutes a fall given this situation. You seemed to at least see there's several ways for an organized group to fall.
Well, I don't really want to start debating this again. I just found it necessary to respond to all of that stuff once.
It has nothing to do with all the soldiers dying, it has to do with the organization no longer existing as an organization. The Marines wont "fall" (be destroyed as an organization) because they're needed for the story.
maybe.lets talk again about it after this saga
they may continue as WB pirates, they may divide as each section captain both possible anyway
and if WB dies, maybe he give retreat command to his fleet, and fight all WG fighters alone by himself, that would be some scene
By the way "Dragon may start a worldwide revolution when all forces of World Government have been gathered at Execution" prediction is more likely to happen now since it revealed Dragon is not the father of Ace
I hope it isn't only me because I somehow see ace dying infront of luffy.
I hope it isn't only me because I somehow see ace dying infront of luffy.
if ace dies,who melts the ice?the ships have to leave.
the ice will melgt eventually
Or the ice simply cracks like in modern times when some ships do that….
If Ace dies, who will hold off the riot of rabid fangirls in Japan?
i hope we get the chapter at the same time the ps3 slim is announced on tuesday
I hope it isn't only me because I somehow see ace dying infront of luffy.
Not going to happen.
if ace dies,who melts the ice?the ships have to leave.
I see, this makes sense, I guess it'd be hard to move to the next arc on ice.
Hmm I imagine when the time for execution comes,they kill him and everyone is looking like "oh no..we failed" and then they see that the spears just went through him and Sengoku realizes that someone(maybe Garp =D)changed the cuffs and they are not from seastone haha..but I doubt this will happen