The Wheel of Time (Spoiler Warning)

brennen.exe

Intro: A while back I would never have considered starting a thread for WoT, but after miscellaneous comments here and there I have come to realize that there are a good many people on this forum – quite a few I enjoy talking to in particular -- that have read or are reading the series. Given the final book is due to release this year, I figure this is an appropriate enough time to start a discussion thread where we can help refresh each others' memory, discuss, theorize, speculate, and blabber about the expansive series thereof. In any case, I would much rather discuss this series with people I already know (to a degree), rather than joining another forum full of nerds. I couldn't find a thread related to this anywhere else, so hopefully this catches on and gets some good discussion.

My Experience: I started reading the books in my Senior year of High School (2003-2004). I picked up the first book and started reading at a slow pace, but once I reached the 12th chapter or so I couldn't put it down. I finished all of the books that were out (up to book 10) within three months, and found myself…torn. Well, I have now purchased all of the books in hardback and been reading them all over again -- a little bit slower -- with the original hope that I could make them last until book 12 was released. Yeah, well, that didn't work. I am currently on page ~500 of book 10 and will probably finish it this week. I have never read book 11, so I look forward to something new. Likely I will not even come back into this thread until I finish book 11, which will be in about...two weeks? At most. I love the series. I have the typical complaints about certain things in the story and certain portrayals of men and women, habits, etc, etc, but overall I love the series and am extremely impressed with Mr. Jordan's imagination, writing style, and skill. I look forward to Brandon's input as well, as I have followed his blogs this year and agree with most of his statements.

Purpose of Thread: Plain and simple, discuss the books in as much detail as desired. Pro's, Con's, characters, plot, plot holes, hates, loves, interests, theories, etc. I am going to assume anyone posting in here has either read all 11 books or doesn't mind getting spoiled, so do not worry about spoilers. If you want, use tags, if not –- consider everyone warned already.

History: For those of you unfamiliar with the series, Google it. No, but seriously, it is basically an ep– struggling epic fantasy written by the late author James Oliver Rigney, Jr., under the pen name Robert Jordan [[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wheel_of_Time"]1]. The series is a little obese, having 12 books currently released, and the final in the making; each book averages a good 800 pages:

[hide]0. New Spring
1. The Eye of the World
2. The Great Hunt
3. The Dragon Reborn
4. The Shadow Rising
5. The Fires of Heaven
6. Lord of Chaos
7. A Crown of Swords
8. The Path of Daggers
9. Winter's Heart
10. Crossroads of Twilight
11. Knife of Dreams
12. A Memory of Light (In Progress; Unreleased)[/hide]

tarrin4ever

Book 10 nearly made me throw the thing out of a moving vehicle. It drove me up the freakin wall how terrible that particular book was.

Thank god book eleven managed to redeem the series for me. I was beginning the think they'd never start to conclude the 50 bazillion plot threads that kept accumulating throughout the series.

I remember seeing a sprite comic for WoT that was pretty funny at times. I'll have to go search around and see if he ever updated it again.

Capt Haggis

actually I never read all of book 10 or 11. I just kind of skiped to the imporent parts of both.

My personal favorite book was The Shadow Rising, mainly due to the focus on perrin. Though any part with mat is also a favorite.

What did you guys thing of New Spring? I never got around to reading that one. Mainly because I got most of the series at the used bookstore.

Greg

Hm?

brennen.exe

Awww. Thread is fail?

@Tarrin: I know what you mean about book ten, but I don't think it is "terrible". Disappointing, in a way, since instead of touching upon things and moving forward, it sits on or drags out a few other issues. Probably my least favorite of all of them so far, but I am still enjoying it.

@Haggis: I liked New Spring. I mean, going in I knew how it would end (naturally), and I expected it to be fairly boring, but I actually really enjoyed it. It was interesting to get a more in depth view of life as an Accepted, as well as see the test for the shawl. Worth reading, IMO, especially since it is so short. Well, I say "short", but I only mean in comparison to.

@Greg: Don't spoiler lost for me!! I haven't started watching any of the series.

dirt monkey AL

I dunno, I liked Book Ten for dear ol' Mat and the delightful flat-chested Empress girl. And apparently, I lied to someone about how many books I've read - I have read all of them. I found Book Eleven on my bookshelf, and I only remembered a few things about it.

mkoopman

@Greg:

Hm?

[qimg]http://www.watchinglost.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/Season_Four_Finale/800px_frozendonkeywheel.jpg[/qimg]

Hahahahahahahahah, clever.
I'm laughing a lot more than I should be.

Robby

Its a difficult series to discuss. Its so damn long with soooo much denseness to it, I don't forsee a whole lot of productive discussion coming along in this thread unless someone brings up a very specific point of discussion, especially not this late in the game.

I first started reading it in college back in 2000, and slowly digested it over many many busrides, taking nearly 2 years to catch up to whatever book was current at the time.

The series was/is good, thoguh it really suffers from splitting its attention over too many characters. Even in the first book there was Rand, Matt, Perrin Nynaeve, Egwene, and Morrain and Lan, were the leads initially, and then by the what.. third book? They'd split apart, all of them, going on their own quests and own plotlines. Which is fine and cool. (Perrin and Matt were my favorties along the way. I love wolf themes, and I also always enjoyed the Rand and Avienda material and am amused at the fact he is cursed/blessed to be with three women that absolutley love him.)

And with each of them split up, they gathered characters to them to drive their plots, usually 3-5 characters apiece, everone pickign up wivs or husbands… and then sde characters split off into their own chapters and stories where THEY had supporting characters... and so on and so forth. At some point there were literally hundreds of characters. How many random fodder Aes Sedai and Ashamen can one person keep straight in their head? And then even the dark overlord forsaken that had bene killed were reborn, etc. etc. just... too many characters, too much padding.

The pace slowed down to a crawl to deal with the ridiculous sized cast. I think the purest example of this was in book... 10 I think?... where the first 600 page were spent on ONE DAY, albiet from like 20 different viewpoint. Its just ridiculous. Book 11 thankfully managed to wrap up a lot of the plot threads that had been dangling for 3 or 4 books, and the final book has been pretty much promised at like 650,000+ words (1,300 pages) so hopefully it'll all wrap up fairly well, but I still assume there will be a ton of characters and plotlines left loose and in the ether. And thats okay, that sort of fits the theme of the series that there are no ends or beginnings. I think it could hav been a 7 or 8 volume series and have pretty much covered all the same ground and wrapped up long ago, and it would have been tighter for it.

Oh well. Here's hoping the 1,500 page finale kicks ass and is worth all the suffering and wait.

I kind of want to reread the whole thing one day after its done, its been almost 10 years since I read the first book after all... But thats a scary ammount of pages to go throug again. A SCARY ammount...

Honestly, even though its not as long and not as close to being finished, a Song of Fire and Ice grips me a lot better as a more realistic and more unpredictable series with better character focus.

But WoT is good. yeah, still good.

Oh, and "....crossed her arms beneath her breasts."

tarrin4ever

tries to think of intelligent discussion points to keep thread alive

…

Did anybody find it weird how much spanking goes on in these books?

... Dang!

Robby

@tarrin4ever:

tries to think of intelligent discussion points to keep thread alive

…

Did anybody find it weird how much spanking goes on in these books?

... Dang!

and also folding of arms beneath the breasts! I swear, he had that on an automatic macro where he'd just hit F1 whenever a female character was displeased to get that particular reaction.

…and spanking. As many strong female characters as he had, there was definatley a ah... fetish there.

brennen.exe

I think the series is better a second time through. I have read everything up to book 10 twice. You'd be surprised how much you forget or missed the first time around when they stretch over the years or are just…incredibly long. I personally think the development and characters are great despite the perspectives and length descriptions. I mean, with something of this scale you are bound to have shortcomings here and there, but despite all of the I have found each book to be interesting and satisfying. Though I agree with Brandon that the series is better suited for a straight through read without large gaps between the books. Which is, ultimately, why I thought I would make a thread. You forget so much in between and from the beginning that it would be a good way to refresh your memory for the final book without going back to read all the books again.

igalsfy

ah the wheel of time… started it years ago, then books weren't available in my langage and thus i had to start reading it in english... and it's a godamn hard english for a foreigner! so i lost track of the storyline and just stopped reading it (somewhere around book 7 or 8).

so yeah, i'll read it up again when everything is out in french. might happen in a bunch of years.

oh, and i sooo would like to see some tv show about it, considering how each and every aes sedai is a hottie in her way.

GEPPETTOSMONSTER

This sounds interesting, I may read it after I finish the Dark Tower series.

Jedi Master

I loved this trilogy so much (and I knew by the time I first heard of it…when I the NY Times and book 10 was on it). Now I am patiently waiting for the last one

NamiGivesMeNoseBleeds

The American cover art is awful a true disappointment to such a great series.

Crown of Swords is IMO the most sex appealed one and has such great comedy (mostly Mat dealing with Tylin.)

Great Hunt is my favorite because of the incredibly bad ass climax and The Shadow Rising was my favorite when talking about plot.

The movie that might be coming makes me dread… a lot.

Tarrin: Is this that comic?

tarrin4ever

Yep, that's definitely it.

dirt monkey AL

That comic is so awful.

why do i love it?

Good ol' polygamist-in-training Rand. And his twin/quadruplet inducing sperm.

srsly, Jordan?

brennen.exe

Is it just me, or is that Trolloc sprite Storm Eagle from Megaman X??

dirt monkey AL

Why, yes, yes it is.

But then, I think they're all mostly modified Megaman sprites.

Capt Haggis

actually I think it's storm eagle's head, but sigma's body.

NamiGivesMeNoseBleeds

Is anyone else really disappointed that there is a possible Wheel of Time movie coming out?

brennen.exe

From what I read, it wasn't a WoT movie, but a miniseries of The Eye of the World.

igalsfy

anybody played the pc game anyway?

NamiGivesMeNoseBleeds

@brennen.exe:

From what I read, it wasn't a WoT movie, but a miniseries of The Eye of the World.

No no no, I mean the movie that might be put out by Red Eagle entertainment, whom Robert Jordan disliked with great intensity.

brennen.exe

Hmm. Haven't heard of it. While I spent 5 minutes on Google in search of it, I came across this. Pretty interesting, as I could totally imagine a good many of these actor/actresses playing their respective parts. Anyhow, thought I would share it, haha:

Who would you cast for The Wheel of Time?

dirt monkey AL

@brennen.exe:

Hmm. Haven't heard of it. While I spent 5 minutes on Google in search of it, I came across this. Pretty interesting, as I could totally imagine a good many of these actor/actresses playing their respective parts. Anyhow, thought I would share it, haha:

Who would you cast for The Wheel of Time?

Isn't Aviendha not in the Eye of the World, and ain't Tuon (also nonexistant in EotW) black? She's darker at least.

hahahaha

Hopkins as anyone in WoT makes me lole.

brennen.exe

@dirt:

Isn't Aviendha not in the Eye of the World, and ain't Tuon (also nonexistant in EotW) black? She's darker at least.

Well, that whole thing was for the whole series, not just the first book. Though it did use the first books cover art. Yeah, Tuon is black. Whoever chose that Chinese actress obviously didn't pay much attention to character descriptions. (As if the horrible cover art for the book wasn't enough). I love the idea of Pedron Nial being played by Clint Eastwood. Kind of.

Imitorar

brennen, I have to thank you for posting that link, because the sheer "rightness" I felt at the thought of Viggo Mortensen playing Lan improved the quality of my night.

I started reading the Wheel of Time in 7th grade, about 5 years ago. It's a very interesting series, especially because I don't mind the length and amount of plotlines. brennen's right, another read through would be best to cement everything in my memory. Perhaps I'll reread the series after A Memory of Light. But I think I more or less remember all of the plotlines. One thing's for sure, you have to commend Jordan for creating a story that basically takes a bunch of farm kids and spins them out into the world, weaving complex plots and intricate patterns together into one story. It's a very enjoyable series to immerse yourself in if you can handle the scope of the story.

op74

It has been awile since i have read the books but did they say who killed Asmodean ?

dirt monkey AL

It hasn't been revealed yet. Brandon Sanderson says he's gonna reveal it in the final book though.

brennen.exe

My best guess would be Aviendha. According to Jordan, it wasn't supposed to be a mystery and should have been "intuitively obvious". The only person who falls under that category is Aviendha; especially considering her comments about "Jasin Natael", her free reign with her knife, and her being one of the few people who would have been close enough and had the time. Since Jordan learned we were all so confused about it, he purposely "hid" the fact from revealing itself later, which would explain why we never had Aviendha "think" about it since then. Unforuntately, I cannot remember exactly what happened in that chapter, so I will have to check later when I am at home…

Robby

I said I'd photoshop Luffy's head onto Rand's body, and dammit, here it is. It seems quickest and easiest just to switch out my own avatar for a little while instead of putting it anywhere… Grab if it you want Dirt Monkey Al, and if not... I shall just promptly go back to the other... thing... I had.

brennen.exe

Speaking of which, has anyone see or liked any particular fanart for the series? I found a few I liked a while back ago and used them for bookmarks while I read.

dirt monkey AL

@robbybevard:

I said I'd photoshop Luffy's head onto Rand's body, and dammit, here it is. It seems quickest and easiest just to switch out my own avatar for a little while instead of putting it anywhere… Grab if it you want Dirt Monkey Al, and if not... I shall just promptly go back to the other... thing... I had.

Have I told you today that I love you?

EDIT: you's can do magic on signature image?

Robby

@dirt:

Have I told you today that I love you?

EDIT: you's can do magic on signature image?

As a matter of fact you haven't, but its always nice to hear.

I'll see what I can do about that other one later. I'll want to find a shot more closely approximating the angle of the head this time, because that really would have worked better if I'd used a shot of Luffy's head at an angle. (IE- more than 3 seconds of searching)

Slightly on topic…
Ta'veren is just sorta... a walking forgivable dues ex machina isn't it? "Its not stupid coincidence that he happened to run into this random person again or be at the right place at the right time... its Ta'veren! All of them!"

dirt monkey AL

Which reminds me that I hate Rand. Well, not hate, since how can you hate a pimp like him, but I find Mat and Perrin to be a thousand times more interesting.

brennen.exe

This post is deleted!

dirt monkey AL

@brennen.exe:

I'm torn between Mat and Rand. I get so bored with Perrin. He is so incredibly over the top emo it drives me up the walls. At least Rand and Mat suck it up and take action. The dude sits around whining and tying knots in a leather cord all day. "I'm gonna go pout in the snow and freeze half to death so the hottest woman in the world outside of Lanfear caresses my naked body; then, when I wake up, I will be pissed off at her for it." As if Faile wasn't the single most annoying character in the entire series…

Haha, I admit Perrin got on my nerves later on, but that was also when Mat really picked up. Mat had been doing a lot of wandering/nothing in the first couple of books. Though I'll always enjoy those chapters where he's leaving Tar Valon.

Rand's just a giant walking wang.

brennen.exe

@dirt:

Rand's just a giant walking wang.

I sympathize with Rand. He has to deal with a lot of crap, and has a crazy man cooped up in his head trying to take over. Anyway, take your pick; I only spent a few minutes searching and photoshopping, so hopefully robby does better. lol. One serious Luffy, and one poorly drawn Luffy for the poorly drawn Rand:

Oops. I deleted my post:

@robbybevard:

Ta'veren is just sorta… a walking forgivable dues ex machina isn't it? "Its not stupid coincidence that he happened to run into this random person again or be at the right place at the right time... its Ta'veren! All of them!"

Not necessarily. It doesn't always work in their favor, it just twists chance. "It might have happened once in one thousand times…"

@dirt:

Which reminds me that I hate Rand. Well, not hate, since how can you hate a pimp like him, but I find Mat and Perrin to be a thousand times more interesting.

I'm torn between Mat and Rand. I get so bored with Perrin. He is so incredibly over the top emo it drives me up the walls. At least Rand and Mat suck it up and take action. The dude sits around whining and tying knots in a leather cord all day. "I'm gonna go pout in the snow and freeze half to death so the hottest woman in the world outside of Lanfear caresses my naked body; then, when I wake up, I will be pissed off at her for it." As if Faile wasn't the single most annoying character in the entire series…

dirt monkey AL

i can't tell which one i love more

brennen.exe

@dirt:

I can't tell which one I love more_. U__nfortunately, I gotta squish 'em down to fit sig restrictions._

How about we combine them then!? Have no fear, multiple choice is here:

dirt monkey AL

Robby

@brennen.exe:

I'm torn between Mat and Rand. I get so bored with Perrin. He is so incredibly over the top emo it drives me up the walls. At least Rand and Mat suck it up and take action. The dude sits around whining and tying knots in a leather cord all day. "I'm gonna go pout in the snow and freeze half to death so the hottest woman in the world outside of Lanfear caresses my naked body; then, when I wake up, I will be pissed off at her for it." As if Faile wasn't the single most annoying character in the entire series…

For as much romance as Jordon put into his books, he really wasn't terribly good at it. I swear Lan and Nyaneve fell in love completley off camera in book 1, but maybe rereading it would give some more clues. Mat and Perrin both end up with girls they seem to absolutley loathe. I realize the funnest relationships are always the spiteful "they'll NEVER get along" types… but...

The three main characters are all interesting in their own turns. I like Perrin because he has the whole Wolf thing going on, but hten he's totally absent for a book, and then the entirety of like four books its like his only purpose in life is to go "Faile's been kidnapped. Gotta save Faile. Faile's been kidnapped. Gotta save Faile." And he's so singleminded about ti that it IS irritating. Matt is great for the dice and luck and the freewheeling, and he has the most interesting arunning around goofiness cast and has fun with Thom... and Rand... well, Rand is kinda the plot mover. At least his romantic entanglements move a little more realistically, but...

@dirt:

Rand's just a giant walking wang.

…wow. That's quotable. If this weren't a OP forum wher ehte joke would go over like every head....

Tried to get ahold of you on AIM to share this Dirt Monkey, but to no avail. Oh well, I'll try putting it up the way Brennen seems to do for everything. Here's hoping I'm doing this right... I couldn't match the suheer audacity of Brennen's version, so... I went a different direction after finding a headshot at the proper angle...

brennen.exe

@robbybevard:

Tried to get ahold of you on AIM to share this Dirt Monkey, but to no avail. Oh well, I'll try putting it up the way Brennen seems to do for everything. Here's hoping I'm doing this right… I couldn't match the suheer audacity of Brennen's version, so... I went a different direction after finding a headshot at the proper angle.

No. That is definitely more awesome than mine. Niiiice! People still talk on aim?

Capt Haggis

I admit Perrin was kind of dull in the later half, but A) that was a very slow part of the series. They went from crossing the map in a few dozen chapters to have so many separate plot lines that they only had time to go a couple of miles per book.

And hey his wife was kidnapped, and he had to deal with a lot of A-holes (well at least that one annoying officer and the prophet) and he wasn't allowed to break their skulls in. If he was that sub plot would have finished in one book.

And you got to admit he was awesome when he took over that torture secession.

So what are you looking forward to in the next book? I can't wait to see Mat's rescue mission. Also I can't wait to see all the main characters meet again. So much has happened since they were last together I just want to see thier reactions to it. I mean only Rand knows Perrin is lord of two rivers, and how will the others react to finding out Mat is married and a prince or that Rand has three wives?

Oh and a prediction. The false dragon (not Logan, but the one in charge of the black tower) once he turns on the good guys he going to be killed with a normal everyday sword. I'm not sure who do the stabty action, but ever since he tried to fire the black tower's swordmaster I been sure of it.

NamiGivesMeNoseBleeds

I'm mostly looking forward to the final confrontation with the Dark One, Moridin and the rest of the Cho-F-forsaken. sweat drop.

dirt monkey AL

@robbybevard:

Tried to get ahold of you on AIM to share this Dirt Monkey, but to no avail. Oh well, I'll try putting it up the way Brennen seems to do for everything. Here's hoping I'm doing this right… I couldn't match the suheer audacity of Brennen's version, so... I went a different direction after finding a headshot at the proper angle...

Man, that was you? I can't remember what you said as a greeting, but it made me go straight to the block button.

On that note.

GO LUFFY GO

@brennen.exe:

People still talk on aim?

Shut your trap.

Robby

@brennen.exe:

No. That is definitely more awesome than mine. Niiiice! People still talk on aim?

Yours had the sheer audacity of poorly drawn Luffy on top of a fully painted cover, which is pretty amusing in and of itself. And yes, AIM is way useful for keeping track of people, far more so that phones, cause you see immediatley whenever a person is on and theres no long distance charges….

@dirt:

Man, that was you? I can't remember what you said as a greeting, but it made me go straight to the block button.

It was along the lines of "Hello? Dirt monkey AL? Hi, this is Robby. I have another picture for you. It is both awesome and awful." Which I guess, in retrospect, might be a liiiitle creepy and wierd unexpectadley out of the blue… Maybe I should have mention "from Arlong Park" in there... Or "robbybevard" instead of just "Robby"... Or maybe its because my screenname is "MrNoying" which just immediatley sounds like a spambot....

On that note.

GO LUFFY GO

I seriously hadn't PLANNED on going with Afro Luffy but… I was looking for a color shot where his head was already at that angle and... well... now it is what it is. glad you like it.

Do you think you could tkae the Luffy and Rand comparison a notch further, and say "Luffy is just a giant walking wang." That way, its quotable and approppriate for these forums.

@Capt:

that was a very slow part of the series. They went from crossing the map in a few dozen chapters to have so many separate plot lines that they only had time to go a couple of miles per book.

Thats probably why the developed magic portal transportation, to get around that problem… doesn't change the fact that the later books were so crammed with subplots as to, yes, be at a snail's crawl. Book 10 especially.

So what are you looking forward to in the next book?

Laying down, hiding under some covers with cookies and milk by my side for like three days and just reading 1,300+ pages in one go, thus capping of a series I've been reading for 10 years. Assuming the last book ends up being the last book, anyway… the takeover writer is saying it might just be sheerly impractical to go with THAT many pages... Supposedly the wordcount at this point is pretty much double even the longest book in the series thus far...

Jedi Master

@brennen.exe:

How about we combine them then!? Have no fear, multiple choice is here:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5143/loluffyrand02wq1.jpg http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1397/loluffyrand01qv7.jpg http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1760/loluffyrand01qv6.gif

HAHAHA, most hilarious pic I ever seen…but anyway, am I the only one who thinks it would be awesome if Peter Jackson did this as a movie?

Robby

@Jedi:

HAHAHA, most hilarious pic I ever seen…but anyway, am I the only one who thinks it would be awesome if Peter Jackson did this as a movie?

No. Jackson did a good job with Rings, but also ripped it apart in adapting it, nd it was pretty straightforward.

Wheel of time will never work as a movie franchise. Too many plotthreads, and too many pages. If the uber successful Harry Potter movies can't even merit a 3 hour running time and have to cut ever plot thread thats character development related, then theres no way this massive 12 book bajillion page series would work. at all.

Even freaking NARNIA is having trouble making it to movie 3. Not going to happen, and it shouldn't happen.