Does anyone understand any of this, because I am confused and pissed.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2008-12-11/christopher-handley/carl-horn
Man might be sentenced to 20 years for buying manga.
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Does anyone understand any of this, because I am confused and pissed.
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/editorial/2008-12-11/christopher-handley/carl-horn
The Comic Book Legal Defense Fund (CBLDF) has announced on Thursday that it is serving as a special consultant to the defense of Christopher Handley, an Iowa collector charged with the alleged possession of obscene manga. Handley faces up to 20 years in prison. Handley had received a package of seven manga that the Postal Inspector intercepted and determined to contain objectionable images. With a search warrant, the agents from the Postal Inspector's office, Immigration and Customs Enforcement Agency, Special Agents from the Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation, and officers from the Glenwood Police Department followed Handley home from the post office and seized his collection of over 1,200 manga volumes; hundreds of DVDs, VHS tapes, and laser discs; seven computers; and other materials. However, Handley is being charged for only part of his collection. CBLDF's United Defense Group team, led by Eric Chase, has successfully petitioned District Judge Gritzner to drop some of Handley's charges and rule parts of a controversial law unconstitutional. Handley was initially charged under the United States Code, which was amended by section 504 of the PROTECT Act to prohibit distribution or possession of "a visual depiction of any kind, including a drawing, cartoon, sculpture, or painting," that —
• ‘(1)(A) depicts a minor engaging in sexually explicit conduct; and • ’(B) is obscene; or
• '(2)(A) depicts an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and
• '(B) lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;–-----------
To think that I live in a country now where owning some drawings of naked girls can get you thrown in prison for 20 years. How ridiculous. I mean would somebody PLEASE think of the drawings? Those poor [expletive] drawings…. I don't even like that loli stuff. But I'm getting sick and tired of this country trying to continuously take our rights away. It's a shame there appear to be so many people like those in this thread who don't seem to understand what something like this means. And it won't just stop at protecting the cartoon girls, it will snowball, as it always does.
agree :getlost:
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Dear lord, I can understand charging someone for possession of actual child porn, but they're going after him for owning manga with lolicon images in them? (That's the jist I got.) I don't see why people should be punished for owning such things as nobody, as far as we know, was actually harmed in order to produce them. So why give someone a 20 year jail sentence for owning such harmless drawings? It's not like possessing such material will somehow morph him into some psychotic child molester, hell bent on raping all the children within a five mile radius…
Here's hoping the charges are overturned..
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It's illegal to possess images that "lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value" in Iowa? That might be the most retarded collection of words anyone's ever tried to pass off as a law, it's downright laughable. Pretty damn backwards.
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Seems like a load of crap to me.
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Well fuck, they are at it again. Some people on here may be for it cause they don't like lolicon (if that IS why he bought), but it's not just limited to that. What stops them from stepping it up to manga which includes bloody death? What is stopping them from attacking, say, One Piece cause it has violence and sexual comedy in it but due to it's cartoonish artstyle that they claim it's being targeted towards kids (tho, it is, in Japan) to corrupt them?
Yeah, that kinda bullshit is what's going on. I'm importing manga (One Piece), and I hope this shit doesn't happen to me. This pretty much seals the case of me importing the Berserk manga, cause it does have underage nudity in it. Dark Horse releases it here uncut tho, which I've always wondered how they can do cause there IS underage nudity in it.
Biggest concern, is the increase in censorship. If this shit is gonna start happening, expect basically every series to start getting 4kids styled censorship. In the future, it may turn out in order to be a manga fan, you're gonna have to live in Japan. I really hope this guy is found innocent.
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Truth: If im reading that right it has to fullfill 2 conditions: A and B to be illegal.
The image may
• '(2)(A) depict an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex; and
As long as it does not also:
• '(B) lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
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Great… Just... Great... What manga got him caught I may wonder, in case this goes into a world of "First Amendment chaos"
I won't donate until I get the facts.
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Truth: If im reading that right it has to fullfill 2 conditions: A and B to be illegal.
Ah, that does indeed seem to be the case, thanks for pointing that out.
I still think it's pretty silly that the artistic and literary value of these mangas is to be determined by a jury of random people. Obviously you can't expect everyone to appreciate or even understand how someone else could appreciate certain forms of art, and who's to say any one person's definition of art is superior to someone else's? Don't know, just seems dumb.
My dA: http://adudenamedjoshd.deviantart.com/
Click click click
"When you dance with the devil, you wait for the song to stop."
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As a friend of mine likes to say on another forum, "Try to argue you have a right to own manga of children getting raped by their neighbours, relatives and pets and I'll show you a weeaboo getting gang raped in backwater prison."
Even if you support his right to own such things (as I do) you're not going to be successful at presenting a case for it in front of an old tyme conservative judge. Even if the judge isn't conservative, two or three generations separate that judge from current youth cultural perceptions toward acceptable content.
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I'll bet the jury either doesn't know what manga is or will think it is just porn.
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That's what he gets for importing loli. He should know how touchy America is about porn, let alone loli porn.
Should've imported some crazy ass seinen shit with guys splittin' wigs with their own intestines and sucking the marrow from his opponent's stump. -
Actually, it's been said that images were of boys and not girls (not that it has much to do with this).
How this concerns you:
If passed, other manga that have already been released may be deemed illegal.
Here's one that may enrage you:
DRAGONBALL
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Here's one that may enrage you:
DRAGONBALL
le-gasp
It's because of the little boy nudity, right? Never thought of that before.
Not that I'm afraid they'll ban it any time soon. On the other hand, Kodomo no Jikan…
LOVE AND PEACE
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Why don't we just ban mirrors while we're at it.
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Who decides whether something has a serious artistic value, things that look like someone drank a cup of colour and than puked it all over the canvas are selling for millions -_-
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Unless he is purchasing these manga with the intent to resell them to minors, I say give him a $2500 fine and dismiss the remaining charges. If we're going to have precedents set on the content of comic books, I'd much rather we just made it too expensive to be pervy. Otherwise, the state of Iowa can spend its own damn money to house him in prison. Not that they would, of course- afterall, that's what taxpayers are for, right?
Before anyone suggests that $2500 is excessive in this case:
his collection of over 1,200 manga volumes; hundreds of DVDs, VHS tapes, and laser discs; seven computers; and other materials
Somehow, I think he can find a way to pay it.
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A group of Iowans should form a ring around the guy and laugh, spit and point fingers at him while shouting stuff like "boy lover!", "pedophile!" and "kiddy porn wanker!". After 10 minutes of that everybody should continue their lives like nothing never happened.
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Uh…................ whut?
Well i hope they're pleased, because he's sure going to get hell over that for the rest of his life because of this.
"Look Mama! It's the Japanese porno man!"
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The Japanese shota porno man.
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What is stopping them from attacking, say, One Piece cause it has violence and sexual comedy in it but due to it's cartoonish artstyle that they claim it's being targeted towards kids (tho, it is, in Japan) to corrupt them?
Common sense that all humans are endowed with.
I would like to take a different view of this case, as I commonly do with these things.
1. The fear-mongering in that article is bullshit.
"THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU OMFG!"
Really? I say let it. I have nothing to hide and if 'cops cars surrounded my house' and I was taken away in a huge procession, I would LOVE the opportunity to sue the fuck out of them after I get released and never have to work a day in my life. Why do people think that's such a bad thing? If you have nothing to hide, I don't know why that's such a scary thought.
"FREEDOM SPEECH GREG! BIG BROTHER!!! ETC.!!!!"
…..uh....so? Someone suspects you might be doing something wrong. Okay. People make mistakes. And when people DON'T act on suspicions we never hear the end of how 'they weren't prepared'. So fucking pick one.
2. 20 years is a long mother-fuckin' time. Where did they get that figure? What was it based on, and under what current law is he being accused of breaking? I'm interested in that. Don't give me bullshit about, "It's just a comic." Child porn IS child porn, drawn or otherwise. However....a drawing IS a form of expression unique from the act of REAL child pornography. I mean would we consider an Italian artists' cherubs to be child porn because they have penises? No, we call it a masterpiece. So were there simply naked child or was there some form of abuse going on? Once we cross that barrier, let's cross another bridge by examining WHY someone would want to own such a piece of art. This is the part that gets blown the fuck over by everyone.
"It's art! It's just a picture!"
Agreed. All well and good. I'm totally with you there 100%. So tell me, why do you want it? Why do you want pictures of children in pornographic situations? Because it's beautiful? Because it was created by a modern master of art? Because it inspires you to do artwork yourself? Because it inspires others? When you saw this artwork you knew you wanted it for a reason. What was that reason?
When we get that reason, we can move on to whether this individual is a mentally sick indivdual who could potentially rape his granddaughter one day, or he has a deep appreciation for how artist X shows understanding of human musculature and uses space well.
Because I'm sorry, I'm into kinky stuff but if you in any way shape or form get off to children, even if it's private and even if you haven't acted, yet, on those notions, that's fucking messed up.
Now then. Back to the other side, 20 years? Let's slow down and think about the above. Was he a danger to others? What does a psychological evaluation show? Does he enjoy child pornography even depicted in pen and ink? Once you consider those aspects THEN I think you should assign a number to it.
Because ultimately he just may need a few sessions with a shrink to tell him he breast-fed too long or some shit I dunno. But both sides of the case seem to be shovelling it on the pile. 20 years JUST on that is…it's odd. And dumbing down what he did, EVEN IF IT'S PICTURES FOR CHRISSAKE, is wrong because of what it MIGHT POSSIBLY be a sign of.
I have a feeling I touched some raw nerves but what's new?
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According to this dude's lawyer,
There is explicit sex in yaoi comics. And the men are drawn in a very androgynous style, which has the effect of making them look really young. There's a real taboo in Japan about showing pubic hair, so they're all drawn without it, which also makes them look young. So what concerned the authorities were the depictions of children in explicit sexual situations that they believed to be obscene. But there are no actual children. It was all very crude images from a comic book.
Then again there's mention of the dude also owning "lolicon" manga. Whether or not those other ones contained explicit images remains to be announced.
The fact that so little detail about what exactly the offending material was leaves me unsure what to think of the case. This guy could be a general collector of manga, who might have had a few issues of some generic comedy/boy-love manga, and a few volumes of Kodomo no Jikan.
And at the very worse he's a dangerous closet pedophile, who reads manga of lobster monsters raping little boys, and owns a dozen issues of Kindergarten Rape Man.
But lets not start tucking away our Berserk or (lets not be that dense) One Piece in fear of the man coming to take it away and locking us up.
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Greg is right guys why are you defending child porn? Drawn or not child porn is child porn. Using the "it's just a drawing" reasoning, would you say hentai isn't porn? Come on guys!
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So like wouldn't it be kinda funny like if he knew the cops were comming and was tryign to finish his last page..as soon as he heard the doorbell or violent kick of his door. he tried to hide his stuff in like a pickle jar and go" hey guys…..where's the fire?" You guys wnat osem waffles?"
Isn't it sick tho that we are becoming slaves here with no rights to possess anythign. It really wans't harming the mail person...and yet she/he felt responsible to protect thigns. Just goes to show you , you can be judged by your cover sometimes and this is what happens. Wou;ldn't it be a crazy turn of events if she/he had like actual child porn on theri cellhpne and tried to delete their wallpaper as like the cop is questiong them?
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Greg is right guys why are you defending child porn? Drawn or not child porn is child porn. Using the "it's just a drawing" reasoning, would you say hentai isn't porn? Come on guys!
Weeeell, it's not so cut and dry. Art is a highly malleable and debatable form of expression. While I think ANYONE that would even consider owning it, let alone drawing it, to be revolting, there are people that really simply are skillful at expressing a number of…different...qualities in art.
That's why I think it's important to take a look at this fellow's brain and see why he wanted it, for what purposes and work from there.
If he just wants to own it for artistic purposes and shows ABSOLUTELY no child predator characteristics then I think the case should be cut and dry and he has nothing to worry about. It's the fact that everyone is rushing to his defense that my bullshit detector is blaring off the hook.
Either way, 20 years without some hardcore hehe evidence is absurd. They must have something. And if they don't, fuck 'em.
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Either way, 20 years without some hardcore hehe evidence is absurd. They must have something. And if they don't, fuck 'em.LOL..
cough
Yeah so…fact is....it was his and no children were prolly not touched while drawing those and if they were...he wasn't involved nor do they have proof that he was if indeed they were...maybe he was jsut trying to get an edge on drawing people. maybe his friend was better at drawing the body..and he wanted to get an edge on him...maybe he accidentlyl ordered it..u never knowOffer him psychiatric help for a 20 years if that's the problem not to butt pounding pain where he'll be more than sorry when he comes out for having rights.
That's just like if I accidentally picked up a biscuit and it was shaped like a naked child at Old Country Buffet..some random old woman pointed it out and I got the death sentence...
Leave him ALONE!!!
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People should be put to prison for what I think they might do.
Preventing perverts from fapping to lolikon pr0n is making the world a safer place for our children.Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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But IS it Lolicon? Or the possibly androgynous guys that only LOOK like they're minors?
Because there's a lot of both, and while the first is atrocious, the second is unfortunately a common art staple. I'm more apt to support protecting the yaoi/shounen ai thing than Lolicon.
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People should be put to prison for what I think they might do.
Preventing perverts from fapping to lolikon pr0n is making the world a safer place for our children.I hope you're being sarcastic here:/
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Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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Common sense that all humans are endowed with.
I would like to take a different view of this case, as I commonly do with these things.
1. The fear-mongering in that article is bullshit.
"THIS COULD HAPPEN TO YOU OMFG!"
Really? I say let it. I have nothing to hide and if 'cops cars surrounded my house' and I was taken away in a huge procession, I would LOVE the opportunity to sue the fuck out of them after I get released and never have to work a day in my life. Why do people think that's such a bad thing? If you have nothing to hide, I don't know why that's such a scary thought.
"FREEDOM SPEECH GREG! BIG BROTHER!!! ETC.!!!!"
…..uh....so? Someone suspects you might be doing something wrong. Okay. People make mistakes. And when people DON'T act on suspicions we never hear the end of how 'they weren't prepared'. So fucking pick one.
2. 20 years is a long mother-fuckin' time. Where did they get that figure? What was it based on, and under what current law is he being accused of breaking? I'm interested in that. Don't give me bullshit about, "It's just a comic." Child porn IS child porn, drawn or otherwise. However....a drawing IS a form of expression unique from the act of REAL child pornography. I mean would we consider an Italian artists' cherubs to be child porn because they have penises? No, we call it a masterpiece. So were there simply naked child or was there some form of abuse going on? Once we cross that barrier, let's cross another bridge by examining WHY someone would want to own such a piece of art. This is the part that gets blown the fuck over by everyone.
"It's art! It's just a picture!"
Agreed. All well and good. I'm totally with you there 100%. So tell me, why do you want it? Why do you want pictures of children in pornographic situations? Because it's beautiful? Because it was created by a modern master of art? Because it inspires you to do artwork yourself? Because it inspires others? When you saw this artwork you knew you wanted it for a reason. What was that reason?
When we get that reason, we can move on to whether this individual is a mentally sick indivdual who could potentially rape his granddaughter one day, or he has a deep appreciation for how artist X shows understanding of human musculature and uses space well.
Because I'm sorry, I'm into kinky stuff but if you in any way shape or form get off to children, even if it's private and even if you haven't acted, yet, on those notions, that's fucking messed up.
Now then. Back to the other side, 20 years? Let's slow down and think about the above. Was he a danger to others? What does a psychological evaluation show? Does he enjoy child pornography even depicted in pen and ink? Once you consider those aspects THEN I think you should assign a number to it.
Because ultimately he just may need a few sessions with a shrink to tell him he breast-fed too long or some shit I dunno. But both sides of the case seem to be shovelling it on the pile. 20 years JUST on that is…it's odd. And dumbing down what he did, EVEN IF IT'S PICTURES FOR CHRISSAKE, is wrong because of what it MIGHT POSSIBLY be a sign of.
I have a feeling I touched some raw nerves but what's new?
I draw the line on that kiddie shit also I think that's sick however, for some reason japense people continue to make shit like that. If he brought a manga there's no reason for him to e arrested. If he like characters from that manga and brought art there's no reason for him to be arrested. This guy is going to get labeled as a child pedophile thrown into prison and may even have to register as a sex offender once he gets out. Also I highly doubt he does 20 years.
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It was an attempt at summing up Greg's reasoning.
Oh I see. Pretty funny and just like you:P
I should have known since that's your style.
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Oh come the fuck on. 20 years? Is this really worth putting the guy in prison and getting raped all the time? And yes he will be targeted once what he's in there for gets out.
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I have a feeling I touched some raw nerves, but what's new?
Either way, 20 years without some hardcore hehe evidence is absurd. They must have something. And if they don't, fuck 'em.
I agree with you for the most part. It's not like you are saying this guy should be thrown in prison because you think he might be a danger to society, but rather you are questioning the validity of this "20 years in prison for owning a comic book" case. Essentially, the question is "why" (exactly) is he being tried for this. Without that, how can we say if, and, or but about it? Surely whoever is prosecuting this case isn't so far gone that they really think they can send this guy to the slammer for 20 just because he owns a few hentai mangas. That would be absurd. Ironicially my wife is doing her final essay for her English class on pornography and whether or not is should be considered adultery. You are an English teacher, right?
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Hence, my stance on fining $2500. If he goes to an Iowa state penitentiary, the good, decent, law-abiding, God-fearing people of the state of Iowa get to fork out ten times that figure for feeding, clothing, and housing his possibly-pederastic ass. Since the charge against him is federal, however, if he's convicted, all of us taxpayers (good, decent, law-abiding, God-fearing and otherwise)may get to pay for feeding, clothing, and housing his still-yet-to-be-verified-as-pederastic ass.
What's really bothersome about this case isn't the seizure of the pornographic material at the Post Office; it's the seizure of all of the other stuff. If, like Greg, I have nothing to hide then the seizure of one questionable document or two is no biggie. It's when they seize everything else in my house that it starts to become an issue. Because you see, they call all of it evidence, and as evidence it all goes into a little room at a law enforcement building where it stays until such time as it has been verified to no longer be evidence. Depending on the case, this could be a very. long. time. What if my checkbook or credit cards are among the items seized? Since a number of people have access to the evidence room, what's to keep someone from taking my belongings for personal use?
I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh
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@_Meh_:
yet-to-be-verified-as-pederastic ass.
I'm new to these discussions so I might be missing something. All kinds of women get raped in TV-Shows, Movies and Video games on a regular basis so why haven't we arrested all the guys that ever popped a boner at the sight of it already? Why is someone fapping to childporn comics an actual real life child molester but the millions of people who get off to seeing people blown to pieces, burned to a crisp or having their skins nailed to their bedroom walls while still alive (or whatever you see everyday on CSI, Criminal Minds or the latest hollywood blockbuster) aren't considered maniac serial killers?
Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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How do they decide how old a drawn character is?
What if it was like having porno of the Bleach character Nell (who in terms of age is not a child but is in appearance)…... ps: i dont have Nell porn but this is just a situation I conjured.
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Let's throw someone in jail for twenty years because they might just end up being a child rapist in the future!
I mean come on I'm not a fan of lolicon and I find it disgusting, but you can't use that as an excuse to ruin someone's life over the notion they just might break the law in the future, especially if your only evidence something that's not even illegal, and actually protected under the 1st admendment in the first place (well according to the Supreme Court at least). I have a feeling that even they have to appeal to higher courts this guy isn't going to jail.
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That's what he gets for importing loli. He should know how touchy America is about porn, let alone loli porn.
Should've imported some crazy ass seinen shit with guys splittin' wigs with their own intestines and sucking the marrow from his opponent's stump.This was a comment was both clever and funny.
I fully endorse this comment.Even if it was the most hardcore Loli porno ever, if this guy goes down, then a new standard will be set. It'll be up to someone else to decide what "questionable content" is and literally anything with traces of nudity or adult-themes could come under scrutiny.
It's the fact that everyone is rushing to his defense that my bullshit detector is blaring off the hook.
Some of us subscribe to the belief that lolicon stuff is the lesser of two evils and would rather have predators getting their jollies with animated stuff than actually raping underage kids. Alot of antho people love the cartoon stuff but wouldnt actually nail a rabbit or a deer or a fox, y'know?
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However you look at it, judging a person for owning some comics is retarded. Even if he gets away with just a fine. Hell, even if he gets away without a punishment of any kind, this whole affair is plain stupid.
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It was time already someone decided to put a halt to all that lolicon shit.
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Let's throw someone in jail for twenty years because they might just end up being a child rapist in the future!
Tell that to the child he might rape in 20 years. I mean really that was a stupid comment, flat-out.
People should be put to prison for what I think they might do.
Where did I ever suggest it depends on what you think they might do? Sorry Elric, this too is an ignorant comment. I never suggested anything like this. I'm saying let him be evaluated by behavioral psychologists, look at what he had in his house, research his history.
"OH GREG! FREEDOM OF SPEECH! HURP DERP"
Where do you draw a line? I know NOTHING about this fellow. I know NOTHING about what evidence they may have. I don't even know what kind of images they were. For all I know, my comments don't even need to relate to this case, so much as they do common sense. That's why I'm questioning, why 20 years for just A SINGLE manga? Is there something else we don't know?
"BUT GREG IT'S JUST MANGA OR ANIME! IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH HE HAD OR DIDN'T HAVE!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsutomu_Miyazaki
"BUT GREG NOT EVERYONE WHO OWNS A PORNO IS EVIL AND VILE!"
Calm down. What I'm saying is people who own or purchase these kinds of extreme things may have certain tendencies and if you indulge in these things, you really should be prepared to explain why you like it. For the case at hand I'm not even suggesting he likes it. As our own version of Chris Crocker stated above, maybe he purchased it by accident, I'm even willing to accept that off-hand excuse, so then why 20 years?
Instead of wringing my hands and whining about freedom of speech or making ignorant assumptions about the arrest as I quoted above, slow the fuck down and why not listen to what the other side has to say. Hell, I might even send him 10 bucks because I think he deserves a fighting chance because we have yet to hear HIS COMPLETE SIDE OF THE STORY ourselves.
But all this nit-pick childish bullshit of all rushing to one side because it makes a shocking headline is absurd. Why not sit back and listen with unbiased ears to both sides like a good judge or jury, wait for all the cards to be on the table instead of instantly calling for the head of the Prosecutor. Maybe they have NO case, in which case I hope this guy gets off and sues the living shit out of them for damages.
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Yibis One Piece Fansubs
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But all this nit-pick childish bullshit of all rushing to one side because it makes a shocking headline is absurd. Why not sit back and listen with unbiased ears to both sides like a good judge or jury, wait for all the cards to be on the table instead of instantly calling for the head of the Prosecutor. Maybe they have NO case, in which case I hope this guy gets off and sues the living shit out of them for damages.
Come on, this is the American court system we're talking about. I know a lady that was sentenced to 20 years in prison for a crime she didn't commit without a single piece of evidence to support that verdict. Only now that new facts come out, 3 years later, is she able to make a reasonable appeal. I don't know what this guy is innocent or guilty of, and if he's a sicko pedophile rapist than he deserves 20 years + in my opinion, and like you yourself said, I think he should be thoroughly evaluated psychologically to determine his mentality. I'm not saying that he's innocent and should be acquitted immediately, I just have little faith concerning the judicial system, especially when it comes to something they likely have little understanding of. I just hope that when the facts come out, they are able to hear them, good or bad.
If he's guilty of breaking the law, he should be imprisoned, but if he's innocent, well, I hope the jury is intelligent enough to determine that. Basically, I guess I agree with you, but I have doubts regarding the fairness of the courts.
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I also want to point out, I had a friend who was a girl and who had RAPE fantasies, or like that was her thing. She hired some friends to break into her apart, throw her into a van and pretend to rape her because she enjoyed it. I'm POSITIVE she wouldnt actually want to be raped, though.
There is a BIG difference between having a sick fantasy and being a criminal or harming someone else. I think if the guy does own loli stuff and he hasn't mollested kids yet, he probably wouldn't have. I don't think people who play rape-sim games go onto become rapist either. I'm not into loli porn or anything but I have known pretty normal people who were casually into it or werent into porn but mentioned really liking loli fetish characters. I dont think theyre gonna mollest kids. They're just perverts. And regardless of that, it's too slippery a slope because 90% of female anime characters would probably be considered underage by western standards. I dont wanna get jailed for 20 years because I own a romantic comedy series that is pg throughout the entires series(not even pg-13) but in a SINGLE volume there is a panty shot of a 12-14 year old or scene where she gets groped accidently.
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"BUT GREG IT'S JUST MANGA OR ANIME! IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH HE HAD OR DIDN'T HAVE!"
This example is not that appropiate…I know you were trying to prove you point (which I strongly agree with)
but this man,"the otaku murderer", is a whole new level.
there are so many people who read this kind of smut (unfortunately),
but most of them read this shit and you never know it,
one in a thousand though happenes to be a psycho....
this example reminds me of the discussions I read about in articles about the schoolmassacres in Germany and Finland:
the media tried to make a direct link between the massacres and the Killer's consume of violent videogames.
But no videogame (or Manga in this case) can make you do stuff like that..something has been wrong with you in the very first place, in the worst case, the manga was responsible to "ignite" sth that was already there...
@Ao:There is a BIG difference between having a sick fantasy and being a criminal or harming someone else. I think if the guy does own loli stuff and he hasn't mollested kids yet, he probably wouldn't have. I don't think people who play rape-sim games go onto become rapist either. I'm not into loli porn or anything but I have known pretty normal people who were casually into it or werent into porn but mentioned really liking loli fetish characters. I dont think theyre gonna mollest kids. They're just perverts.
Yeah, I'm positive the majority is really harmless…yet this topic is really touchy..I don't know if people who "purchase... these kinds of extreme things may have certain tendencies", like Greg said. Do they draw the line between reality and drawing? people who like "Lolicon"-manga say they do "It's just a picture, it has nothing to do with reality!"
I myself can't help but think about reality, which is the reason I despise this genre to the core...
I seriously don't know how to feel about Loli-lovers, but one thing is for sure: It's just fucking distasteful... -
A stunning post by Elric. Might I suggest you research the words 'might' and 'potentially' I used them for a reason so don't blow over them and attempt to make a smartass observation.
Come on, this is the American court system we're talking about.
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The courts are more forgiving and progressive in this age then they've ever been.
I think if the guy does own loli stuff and he hasn't mollested kids yet, he probably wouldn't have.
This example is not that appropiate…I know you were trying to prove you point (which I strongly agree with)
but this man,"the otaku murderer", is a whole new level.Two different posts but I'm going to take on two birds with one stone.
You both missed my point.
I am in NO WAY comparing this man directly to Miyazaki nor am I saying what he will or won't do. What I am saying is, and this is the heart of my feelings on the subject and even though I've stated it before I'll bold it here:
People who are into these things in a sexual and non-artistic way tend to have issues. Maybe they're private and don't leave the home. Maybe they can become something bigger. Let's find out which it is first before rushing to condemn him or to support him or if he even has issues to begin with.
All I'm saying is be informed. Don't just curse 'the man' for taking action and certainly don't let this guy face the trial alone. It's absurd that you just rush to one side because of circumstances. Christ, I'd hate to have you all be on a jury in a trial that had evidence stacked against me despite the fact that I was innocent.
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• '(2)(A) depict an image that is, or appears to be, of a minor engaging in graphic bestiality, sadistic or masochistic abuse, or sexual intercourse, including genital-genital, oral-genital, anal-genital, or oral-anal, whether between persons of the same or opposite sex;
and
As long as it does not also:• '(B) lack serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value;
So… what you're saying is that he's getting arrested because his smut wasn't in good taste? Should he have ordered Bible Black instead? Oh wait, he was ordering Yaoi, wasn't he? Then maybe he should have tried ordering Ai no Kusabi?
What, was he trying to order [censored for flamebait] yaoi?
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! [qimg]http://www.topnews.in/light/files/O.J.Simpson.jpg[/qimg]
The courts are more forgiving and progressive in this age then they've ever been.
Aw, come on, OJ? You can do better than that. We all know that his first trial was a mess, and that this new trial was swift justice. Not to mention there were audio recordings in this recent trial to prove his guilt, which obviously makes it easier for the jury to come to a rational conclusion. In any case, that's another topic for another thread.
While it's true that they may not burn educated women at the stake for allegedly being guilty of witchcraft, it's hard to deny that the court system is still quite flawed. Obviously there's not going to be a substantial amount or evidence in every trial, but no one should be sentenced to 20 years+ without hard evidence, innocent until proven guilty and all that.
Though, I'm not really taking this guy's side, as I don't really know enough to support or condemn him, so in that respect I firmly believe you are correct. I'm just expressing my doubts regarding the competence of our court system. Of course, it's not like any of us really have a say in the matter, so I suppose that this court system's competence is all we have to rely on. Oh well.
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!! CASE IS SIMPLE !!!
NO JAIL = He shouldn't go to jail for having drawn images of anything for THAT AMOUNT OF TIME…because it in no way hurt anyone outside of his living room or in it because the characters were not real or breathing. you can't go to jail for reading or drawing Shit. The film makers don't go to jail for showing Rape in movies so this guy shouldn't go for reading some shit someone drew ESPECIALLY if they don't understand wtf is oging on in manga. THey could be 20 year olds with smaller bodies knowing J.apan
JAIL = He SHOULD GO if HE HAS ACTUALLY raped, violated, touched, abused a child or someoen and THEY HAVE EVIDENCE.
I'm not goign to go to a Dramatic movie about two lovers who had difficulties in childhood lives..one gets raped...and then the cops throw smoke grenades into the theatres and arrest everyone with eyes. That's BS. Lolicon is disgusitng and should be burned but this is RIDICULOUS. Help him with a Shrink not more rape.
