Shichibukai strength

Gabbe

@John:

i

no because it wasn't fair, crocodile fate rested upon two things
1. nico robins betrayal
2. the sand-less surrounding that limited croc to only a small handful of moves

if these two things hadn't hindered him then i think Luffy would have lost

What do you usually find around tombs in desert areas?

@Zik:

LOL are you talking about the same thing? lol chap 203?

Or is this just random spamming of nonsense? or better yet another trap?lmao

Why are you dissing on the wet knife argument? If I have an enemy infront of me who has just poisoned me and I will die. Im getting that guy with me.

And ofc wet knife would work. If wet fist connects then wet knife will make a wound then u just use crocs own blood to clay the DF

stop trying to degrade the integrity of this debate, its good….........but lengthy with no sure winners in site

conclusion: everyone will just have to give up or agree on some middle ground..lol

@Gabbe:

What do you usually find around tombs in desert areas?

Have you even read this arc? Ok now, look at the moves he used in the first two fights, and tell me if he could still have used half of them in the tomb:wassat:

Gabbe

@John:

Have you even read this arc? Ok now, look at the moves he used in the first two fights, and tell me if he could still have used half of them in the tomb:wassat:

He can use any move in the tomb. He knew pluton wasent down there right?

Can croc die from sand? I very much doubt so he could just crash the entire tomb and just leave. Saying that the reason he lost is cuz of location is silly and it cheapens croc cuz he could have won with location he just choose not too.

brennen.exe

@John:

Don't you agree?

No, I don't. If you read all three fights they had, he doesn't really use that many attacks, and Luffy just dodged them all anyway when they were used. In the final match, Crocodile still uses quite a few of his moves he had shown in prior fights. We cannot really argue much else.

@John:

If you both die then you both lose, a few hours has no true reflection as the end result is still the same.

If we cannot agree on this simple analogy, we will not agree anywhere in this discussion. In a one-on-one fight, the match is over when one (or both) of them are defeated. If the winner of the fight dies afterward from a side-effect or anything else, it doesn't change who won the fight, it just means that he died. In the record books, in the stories, in the legends, in the paper, in the movie, in everything…the winner was the winner despite what happened to him afterward. Here, here is one more analogy to help you understand what I am saying. Luffy is an idiot, right? Every fight Luffy gets in he gets cuts, scrapes, and bruises. If he doesn't tend to those wounds afterward he could get an infection, and in RARE cases he could die from those infections. Chopper is his doctor, so Chopper tends to those wounds. Is every fight Luffy wins unfair to you because he has his doctor nurture his wounds after and prevent infection and potential death? What about Zoro's fights? He received wounds that would have killed him without treatment. Those unfair as well? If your answer is "no", then you have to admit that Luffy's antidote from Robin afterward was also fair and/or unrelated to the actual fight.

@ultimec1a:

I see what you're doing there you sneaky, sneaky snake you.

:ninja:

Zik

Why are you dissing on the wet knife argument? If I have an enemy infront of me who has just poisoned me and I will die. Im getting that guy with me.

Cuz its stupid and doesn't work. The wet knife attack in the way Robin used would require a stationary opponent or pinning said opponent down in order to throw the water on them and then stab them(ofcourse Robin had her own way of doing it due to her DF yet still failed). Since he's a logia there's no way to pin him down and Croc's not gonna stand there waiting for it. You'd have to initiate battle knock him down or out and thne do it.

The way you guys talk about as such a sure fire kill on a whim makes it even more laughable. Also I had inkling that some of you were thinking of wetting a knife and then trying to stab Croc lmao.

ultimec1a

@John:

stop trying to degrade the integrity of this debate, its good….........but lengthy with no sure winners in site

conclusion: everyone will just have to give up or agree on some middle ground..lol

Are you talking to me? It seems like it. If you are, then I say this–I was trying to stop all the useless name calling that was being flung around. Besides, if for 2000+ posts that this debate has been going on and it still has not been resolved, it's time to drop it. There is nothing new that is being learned, no exchange of knowledge (unless you call--dumbass, moron, idiot, corny, and fail knowledge,); nothing is being gained. Everyone is insulting one another and not willing to try and understand one's opinions. They are after all opinions; aren't they great? Instead, what you have are people spouting useless crap and trying to pass it off as fact without very little information to effectively go by--the little that they do use is up for interpretation and semantics. Now, if by chance we could all come up with a middle ground for the--Crocodile/Moria vs. Luffy (since this will never really be resolved,)--that would be great. I personally don't see that happening in the near future, but it is nice to see that we still have our optimists.

Another thing--they are just opinions, are they not? Stop insulting one another and just listen to what eachother has to say. Will it hurt you? And when/if you have a disagreement point it out, but please do not degrade and defame that person's opinion because it is their right (especially if you sound like a complete and total idiot). After you have given your disagreement, if that person (s) still does not agree with you, drop it. There is no reason to continue any longer.

Gabbe

@Zik:

Cuz its stupid and doesn't work. The wet knife attack in the way Robin used would require a stationary opponent or pinning said opponent down in order to throw the water on them and then stab them(ofcourse Robin had her own way of doing it due to her DF yet still failed). Since he's a logia there's no way to pin him down and Croc's not gonna stand there waiting for it. You'd have to initiate battle knock him down or out and thne do it.

The way you guys talk about as such a sure fire kill on a whim makes it even more laughable. Also I had inkling that some of you were thinking of wetting a knife and then trying to stab Croc lmao.

You obviusly dident read when the wet knife argument was used my friend. It was used in the situation after the fight where Luffy is poisoned and Croc is knocked out. pinning him down then would not be very hard would it

And yes its wetting a knife What do you think it is some sort of water knife? Although another way is keeping some sort of water hose on croc or simply drowning him in the pool at the castle Ofc its ridiculous but hitting a sand man cuz u got blood on ur hand is also

Another way for croc to abuse his df Is to every time someone figures out his weakness and is about to get hit he turns every part behind the skin thats about to get hit into sand. Ie the skin gets hit it gets kinda like a slap thingie not so bad. Although that might be thinking over logia abit

brennen.exe

@Zik:

Cuz its stupid and doesn't work. Since he's a logia there's no way to pin him down and Croc's not gonna stand there waiting for it. You'd have to initiate battle knock him down or out and then do it.

Sounds like someone didn't even read the sentence it was originally posted in…

@ultimec1a:

I was trying to stop all the useless name calling that was being flung around. Besides, if for 100+ posts that this debate has been going on and it still has not been resolved, it's time to drop it.

In my defense I have tried to resolve the debate, and have been completely patient and civil the entire time. Except with Schmeckie, who I was intentionally provoking (since he's a fanboy) while still holding a serious discussion with. Also, I think Zik is dumb. But these are hardly name-calling, as there was no other words to use…

@ultimec1a:

Are you talking to me? It seems like it. If you are, then I say this–I was trying to stop all the useless name calling that was being flung around. Besides, if for 100+ posts that this debate has been going on and it still has not been resolved, it's time to drop it. There is nothing new that is being learned, no exchange of knowledge (unless you call--dumbass, moron, idiot, corny, and fail knowledge,); nothing is being gained. Everyone is insulting one another and not willing to try and understand one's opinions. They are after all opinions; aren't they great? Instead, what you have are people spouting useless crap and trying to pass it off as fact without very little information to effectively go by--the little that they do use is up for interpretation and semantics. Now, if by chance we could all come up with a middle ground for the--Crocodile/Moria vs. Luffy (since this will never really be resolved,)--that would be great. I personally don't see that happening in the near future, but it is nice to see that we still have our optimists.

Another thing--they are just opinions, are they not? Stop insulting one another and just listen to what eachother has to say. Will it hurt you? And when/if you have a disagreement point it out, but please do not degrade and defame that person's opinion because it is their right (especially if you sound like a complete and total idiot). After you have given your disagreement, if that person (s) still does not agree with you, drop it. There is no reason to continue any longer.

personally i would ignore the rubbish and contribute instead

gabbe and brennen have made some great points that have changed my views about certain aspects of the fight that i never considered and on a whole improved my OP knowledge, its also reafirmed some of my previous beliefs as well so i wouldn't say its pointless as there are still people reaping the benefit of gained knowledge, like me

Time to restart the luffy vs moria posts…........ok i joke

@Gabbe:

Another way for croc to abuse his df Is to every time someone figures out his weakness and is about to get hit he turns every part behind the skin thats about to get hit into sand. Ie the skin gets hit it gets kinda like a slap thingie not so bad. Although that might be thinking over logia abit

reminds me of gaara

well yeah there are tons of different moves but maybe he hasnt reached the peak of skill to be able to do that?:ermm:

Zik

And yes its wetting a knife What do you think it is some sort of water knife? Although another way is keeping some sort of water hose on croc or simply drowning him in the pool at the castle Ofc its ridiculous but hitting a sand man cuz u got blood on ur hand is also

I was going off the way Robin attempted it, actually wettin the knife is stupid and I donlt think it would prove effective. A knife is a metal object it doesn't soak up water.

Robin was attempting to wet an area of Croc's body and then stab him there. That would work if she was able to pull it off.

You obviusly dident read when the wet knife argument was used my friend. It was used in the situation after the fight where Luffy is poisoned and Croc is knocked out. pinning him down then would not be very hard would it

Obviously. Question who's gonna be the guy doing this? Cobra? Robin? and where would the water be coming from?

Exactly what kind of argument was that given the premise? lol

I made it a point not to read the lengthy posts in this thread and just read the marginal, understandable ones.

My post about Croc & Luffy was made without even having to read a page of all of this stuff. I just assumed by seeing Croc's and Moria's name frequently lol. A lot of this stuff is just sad and predictable since it's been argued, hence the bait.

Gabbe

@Zik:

I was going off the way Robin attempted it, actually wettin the knife is stupid and I donlt think it would prove effective. A knife is a metal object it doesn't soak up water.

It doesent need to soak up water it just needs to cut him once then the blood flow will keep him from sanding. Also I dont think he can turn into sand while knocked out (solely my opinion)

@Zik:

Robin was attempting to wet an area of Croc's body and then stab him there. That would work if she was able to pull it off.
Obviously. Question who's gonna be the guy doing this? Cobra? Robin? and where would the water be coming from?

Exactly what kind of argument was that given the premise? lol

I guess you could just like "spit?" :blink: on the entry area and then when the blood flows just keep cutting. This whole debate is from where someone said it was cheating too the 1on1 fight that Robin gave Luffy the antidote after the fight. Ie if he wouldent have gotten it he would be dead eh.

@Zik:

I made it a point not to read the lengthy posts in this thread and just read the marginal, understandable ones.

Yeah some of the long post are just weird

Zik

I guess you could just like "spit?"

LOL this is a good idea but not sure given the climate of Alabasta and the focus on the whole water problem. In heat that intense its hard to form that watery spit lol.

It doesent need to soak up water it just needs to cut him once then the blood flow will keep him from sanding. Also I dont think he can turn into sand while knocked out (solely my opinion)

I kinda disagree I don't think it'd work along with him probably being able to turn in sand unconsciously if enough pressure is applied imo.

Steven D. Teach

@brennen.exe:

Crocodile's right hand is no-holds-barred instant KO if he catches you with it. That makes his hand a bit "broken" in the sense that all he has to do is touch you and it's game over. That is what most would refer to as cheap, no? I mean we accept it as part of Croc, but it is cheap. He touches Whitebeard with that hand and Whitebeard is dead. Are you going to say he is stronger than Whitebeard because of that hand? No. Circumstantial. Had he not been 10 stories high up and had Luffy not been full of water, Luffy would not be concerned about falling and/or would have just jumped around and continued dodging. Unfortunately for Luffy, they were and he was, and therefore Crocodile had a circumstantial chance to grab Luffy with his broken and cheap hand. Given this information, Luffy had a complete victory in round 3 since Luffy showed he would could hammer Croc and keep clear of the hands.

I understand your point, but still don't understand how anyone can look past the fact that Crocodiled caused the circumstances in which he was able to grab ahold of Luffy.

Silence

Lol. This thread.

brennen.exe

@Steven:

I understand your point, but still don't understand how anyone can look past the fact that Crocodile caused the circumstances in which he was able to grab a hold of Luffy.

No, no, I totally give Croc props for staging that whole incident. I am just saying it was fairly circumstantial due to the terrain, so it wasn't an option in the final fight. And even if it were, Luffy did a fine job of dodging everything Croc had the entire 3rd fight, and wasn't fat, full of water, or concerned about falling from a high place. I am just countering the idea that Luffy was "lucky" in round 3.

Steven D. Teach

@brennen.exe:

No, no, I totally give Croc props for staging that whole incident. I am just saying it was fairly circumstantial due to the terrain, so it wasn't an option in the final fight. And even if it were, Luffy did a fine job of dodging everything Croc had the entire 3rd fight, and wasn't fat, full of water, or concerned about falling from a high place. I am just countering the idea that Luffy was "lucky" in round 3.

Oh well I agree with that. I don't think Luffy got lucky or anything like that. I think Crocodile was strong enough to beat Luffy twice, but in the end Crocodile keeps mocking him for not using his powers in a variety of ways, or knowing their full extent. Then once Luffy gets a grip on that, he "surpasses" Croc, as he says.

Jdanzi

Is there anything more to this discussion than going round in circles citing subjectively the same fight. This is boring, talk about something else.

Urouge

What would happen if Croc's OP hand came in contact with Kuma's OP hand? Would Croc dry himself out? Lol

fedcom

^ I don't think it would dry Croc out, because he is sand and is already as dry as he can be.

@Jdanzi:

Is there anything more to this discussion than going round in circles citing subjectively the same fight. This is boring, talk about something else.

I agree. I've already said all I wanted to say in the argument, so I'm quitting now. Anyway, what do you think of Boa Hancock. I think her strength is severely underestimated in these forums as people are placing her in the bottom of their tier lists even though we haven't seen her full abilities yet. I mean, she's probably the strongest Amazon warrior (which makes her frighteningly strong) and has the king's disposition which is a very rare ability. I also doubt we've seen the full extent of her DF powers also…..

Urouge

Hancock is rediculously strong because she can use the king's haki. Her DF is crazy strong. The turning people to stone thing is no joke, we saw that VA Momonga had to stab his hand to avoid it. That is only the beginning of her ability though, since we've also seen that pistol kiss thing she used. I think she's in the same league as Doflamingo.

Jadosra

@brennen.exe:

Your entire post is based off of your excessive opinion. I cannot argue with that, and I have done what I could to show you that there are other possibilities, so I give up. Here is a lovely montage from fight #2 and fight #3 though:

Read: I lost the argument, so instead of trying to use stupid arguments as I did in the past 4 posts, I'l say "You're impossible to have your opinion changed" and run away.
I win…"

+ Croc's Successful Hits:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/200/15/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/201/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/205/13/

Is this supposed to prove anything against what I said?
Oh that's right, its not, its just so that Luffy seems cooler, which certainly proves my argument wrong, you know, the one where I say that if Crocodile didn't underestimate Luffy, he would've won.
That just shows Luffy hitting Crocodile, I also like you avoiding battle 1.

@ultimec1a:

Why are the Crocodile vs. Luffy, and Moria vs. Luffy arguments still going strong? Crocodile lost, end of story. Moria lost, end of story. What is there still to gain? Luffy won; not necessarily because of overwhelming skill but because he was IN THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME–or what I like to call PIS/CIS/PNJ! No matter how many times any of you try to spin the truth--or fanboyism--the truth still stands that Luffy won both of those fights

I agree.
Fortunately, the argument was saying that if Crocodile and Moria didn't underestimate Luffy, he would be dead by now.
So… that post was pointless

@John:

stop trying to degrade the integrity of this debate, its good….........but lengthy with no sure winners in site

conclusion: everyone will just have to give up or agree on some middle ground..lol

I am pretty known in other forums for 2 things:

-When I think I'm wrong, I admit I'm wrong and change my opinion.
-When I think I'm right, the only way to stop my arguing is to have them giving up or me banned of the thread/forum.

So, yeah… I won't give up, don't worry about that.

Besides, its just so obvious that I'm right on this one that it will fuel this thread for years.

@John:

yes Luffy was the better fighter but isn't obvious why croc lost? he was limited to a small amount of moves due to the fact he was in a tomb and not the dessert, dont you agree?

Crocodile had the advantage in that area, Ground of Death and Luffy and Cobra would've died due to ceilling falling even faster, while Crocodile wouldn't die.

but he still got hit, that weapon seems reserved as a final blow like
before, if he had other available moves the perhaps he could have worn Luffy down enough to administer it more effectively. Luffy is lucky to have held that battle in that arena….

He had other moves, a lot of them, actually.
Desert Spada, Sarbles, Desert Gyrassole would probably trap him, altough not as powerfully as in the First Battle, of course, barchan, Sarbles Pesado, and then the Hook.
He could've used them all easily, yet he didn't.

so basically then it came down to nico robin betraying crocodile, if this didn't happen then there would have been a different outcome.yes?

It would also have a different outcome if Crocodile didn't underestimate Crocodile.

the fight was close, even though he picked his crew their main skills had no meaning in this fight, only their physical strengths, again you have to consider that nico robin betrayed crocodile, if this didn't happen then she may have been able to overcome the rest of the crew, they were all beat up so i wouldn't think it too unlikely.

This battle was indeed mostly about Physical strenght.
Which is funny, cause Crocodile is a Logia, yet he didn't use none of his attacks, and he could've easily.

no because it wasn't fair, crocodile fate rested upon two things
1. nico robins betrayal
2. the sand-less surrounding that limited croc to only a small handful of moves

1 Even with Nico Robin helping him, Crocodile could've won easily in the third battle.

2 This statement is ridiculous, he doesn't need to be close to sand to use his attacks (except Desert Gyrasole in fully extent), and even if he did, he could just do that Ground Death thing.

if these two things hadn't hindered him then i think Luffy would have lost

Those things were ants to Crocodile.
His underestimation and desesperation was what made him lose

@brennen.exe:

No, I don't. If you read all three fights they had, he doesn't really use that many attacks, and Luffy just dodged them all anyway when they were used. In the final match, Crocodile still uses quite a few of his moves he had shown in prior fights. We cannot really argue much else.

I ask you: Why didn't he use many attacks when it was very possible for him to use?
Also, you're comparing a Hook attack with a Desert Spada and a Barchan, that's not healthy.
Also, while in the Hook, he would have been surviving for some minutes, in Barchan, his arm would go immediatly to mummy.

@ultimec1a:

Another thing–they are just opinions, are they not? Stop insulting one another and just listen to what eachother has to say. Will it hurt you? And when/if you have a disagreement point it out, but please do not degrade and defame that person's opinion because it is their right (especially if you sound like a complete and total idiot). After you have given your disagreement, if that person (s) still does not agree with you, drop it. There is no reason to continue any longer.

Who insulted who?
Also, this is not just strictly opinions pulled from our ass.
Its opinions based on facts (well, mine at least)

Vanessa

Watch out guys, Maase isl known in other forums.

brennen for the most part has it right; though the only thing is I'd call the third fight a tie but that's just a personal view I have. Kind of like how in my eyes Chopper lost against Kumadori despite the latter having been the one knocked out.

Jadosra

@Vanessa:

Watch out guys, Maase isl known in other forums.

Damn right, bitches

brennen for the most part has it right; though the only thing is I'd call the third fight a tie but that's just a personal view I have. Kind of like how in my eyes Chopper lost against Kumadori despite the latter having been the one knocked out.

When you're saying he's right, are you saying that to my arguments too?
I would like you to say why you agree with him

Mad_Scientist

I think that both Moria and Croc are underestimated by a lot of people.

I think a lot of people underestimate Croc because in the third fight, he got annoyed, said he'd fight Luffy "as a pirate," and stopped using his powers, until near the very end. It wasn't that he was limited in his moves because of the tomb, he purposely decided not to use them. At least that was the impression I got. Maybe I'm wrong.

But assuming I'm remembering things correctly, it means something interesting. It means Croc never lost a single fight in the entire manga when he was going all out the whole time. That kind of makes it tough to really gauge his powers, doesn't it?

Now, I know that Luffy had nullified Croc's defensive ability anyways to an extent, but how much of a difference would there have been had Croc used offensive abilities of his fruit the whole time? Think of the Ace/BB fight. Now, I know Ace lost anyways, but imagine how badly he would have done if, after seeing BB hit him, he had simply said "Well, since you can hit me, I think I just won't use my fruit at all. Have fun with your fruit though, use it all you want."

As for Moria, his shadow power let him create an army of Zombies. Which means, in a sense, every single zombie in Thriller Bark, including ones like Samurai Ryuuma, were a part of Moria's power. Yah, Moria had Hogback's help with the Zombies, but I don't think that should count against him too much. Think of the corpses Moria used as tools made for him by Hogback, similiar to the way Nami uses the Clima-Tact made by Ussop, or the way Zoro uses swords made by (insert whatever famous swordsmiths made them.)

Thus, I think it's perfectly fair to consider all the Zombies simply part of Moria, so if you want to pit Moria in a one-on-one fight against another Shichi, you'd have to give Moria his entire Zombie army to be fair. And that suddenly changes things, doesn't it? Even if you ignore Odz and simply give Moria the Zombies he had available at the start of the Thriller Bark arc, it's still a very powerful army. The weak ones are just fodder, but the General Zombies are quite potent, and all of them together with Moria himself would be tough to fight.

And the interesting thing is, every time Moria defeats a strong opponent and steals their shadow, Moria increases in strength. Right now, he's pretty weak though, since he lost his whole army.

Groene Beret

Did Moria already had his devil fruit when he was an equal to Kaidou?

Mad_Scientist

@Groene:

Did Moria already had his devil fruit when he was an equal to Kaidou?

It was never stated, but I assume so. Every aspect of Moria's fighting style revolved around it on some level, so it's hard to imagine him without it.

MagneticMonkey

@Jadosra:

Is this supposed to prove anything against what I said?
Oh that's right, its not, its just so that Luffy seems cooler, which certainly proves my argument wrong, you know, the one where I say that if Crocodile didn't underestimate Luffy, he would've won.
That just shows Luffy hitting Crocodile, I also like you avoiding battle 1.

I agree.
Fortunately, the argument was saying that if Crocodile and Moria didn't underestimate Luffy, he would be dead by now.
So… that post was pointless

I ask you: Why didn't he use many attacks when it was very possible for him to use?
Also, you're comparing a Hook attack with a Desert Spada and a Barchan, that's not healthy.
Also, while in the Hook, he would have been surviving for some minutes, in Barchan, his arm would go immediatly to mummy.

Look maybe you should consider another point. A battle isn't just:
opponent A use all his attacks to kill opponent B and if it doesn't work then he dies…
You have to consider that in battle 1 it was normal croc would underestimate Luffy as he was so confident that luffy is trash and doesn't deserves an explicit final blow... Why should croc be serious? He is a shichibukai is so intelligent luffy is a rookie who says stuff idiots said and lost against him...
Trash has to die painfully alone in the desert that's croc way of thinking.

Now try to consider the psychological aspect. Croc was 100% sure luffy is dead. There is noone who can survive this. Now luffy came back. So he thought damn who did he do it? Ok he is lucky somehow he managed to survive the hook and come out of my sand trap. So he tried again to kill him. He is still croc and treated luffy as trash now drying him completely and throwing him away. What's the point in riping him appart he is dead just throw him away like shit. Luffy was lucky to have that water balls coming back to him after he missed croc...

So luffy survived with luck. And he came back to fight croc. What is he supposed to think? Luffy must be dead he is worried that this guy is immortal and now he is even able to hit him shit what i'm going to do i tried to kill him 2 times with my most powerfull attacks and he survived all of them and now i'm loosing to him what should i do? Try something new or use the old tactic again which didn't work?
Come on croc was so confident now his whole speech against luffy didn't work luffy isn't trash and croc thinks his strong attacks can't kill this rookie what is he supposed to do. Wait i have one last option…. Poison. By logic it should kill him since i will be able with my skills to hit him so i try it. And wow luffy showed him with his will that the poisons effect can't stop him to crush croc

It's not that they all don't have brains and that they can't think or that they aren't affected by the opponents stamina/will/determination or stuff like that. The problem with luffy is that all the talk that the level of the sea is so high and that he doesn't have any chance won't work since it's luffy and he really believes in him and his nakamas. That's what croc and moria tried to do against luffy. Attack his mind make him doubt in his abilities and they would have won. But luffy was immune to that speech and showed moria and croc what nightmare is...

The same thought can be applied to moria against luffy in the last minutes of the fight you should consider that he was desperate that all he did couldn't stop the SHs and Odz his mega plan to conquer the new world was completely defeated and unuseful. Think about it he was really desperate...

Jadosra

@MagneticMonkey:

Look maybe you should consider another point. A battle isn't just:
opponent A use all his attacks to kill opponent B and if it doesn't work then he dies…
You have to consider that in battle 1 it was normal croc would underestimate Luffy as he was so confident that luffy is trash and doesn't deserves an explicit final blow... Why should croc be serious? He is a shichibukai is so intelligent luffy is a rookie who says stuff idiots said and lost against him...
Trash has to die painfully alone in the desert that's croc way of thinking.

Now try to consider the psychological aspect. Croc was 100% sure luffy is dead. There is noone who can survive this. Now luffy came back. So he thought damn who did he do it? Ok he is lucky somehow he managed to survive the hook and come out of my sand trap. So he tried again to kill him. He is still croc and treated luffy as trash now drying him completely and throwing him away. What's the point in riping him appart he is dead just throw him away like shit. Luffy was lucky to have that water balls coming back to him after he missed croc...

So luffy survived with luck. And he came back to fight croc. What is he supposed to think? Luffy must be dead he is worried that this guy is immortal and now he is even able to hit him shit what i'm going to do i tried to kill him 2 times with my most powerfull attacks and he survived all of them and now i'm loosing to him what should i do? Try something new or use the old tactic again which didn't work?
Come on croc was so confident now his whole speech against luffy didn't work luffy isn't trash and croc thinks his strong attacks can't kill this rookie what is he supposed to do. Wait i have one last option…. Poison. By logic it should kill him since i will be able with my skills to hit him so i try it. And wow luffy showed him with his will that the poisons effect can't stop him to crush croc

It's not that they all don't have brains and that they can't think or that they aren't affected by the opponents stamina/will/determination or stuff like that. The problem with luffy is that all the talk that the level of the sea is so high and that he doesn't have any chance won't work since it's luffy and he really believes in him and his nakamas. That's what croc and moria tried to do against luffy. Attack his mind make him doubt in his abilities and they would have won. But luffy was immune to that speech and showed moria and croc what nightmare is...

The same thought can be applied to moria against luffy in the last minutes of the fight you should consider that he was desperate that all he did couldn't stop the SHs and Odz his mega plan to conquer the new world was completely defeated and unuseful. Think about it he was really desperate...

In the last battle, Crocodile didn't try use his sand powers until the end.
In the last battle, Moria didn't use 1000 shadows until the end, when he was desesperated, and he used too much shadows.

As simple as that

MagneticMonkey

@Jadosra:

In the last battle, Crocodile didn't try use his sand powers until the end.
In the last battle, Moria didn't use 1000 shadows until the end, when he was desesperated, and he used too much shadows.

As simple as that

No it's not as simple as that. And you if you read my post (which i doubt you did) you will find the answer to why they didn't use it against luffy. From croc one last attack to try to block him but knowing it's the end doesn't mean anything. And my post also has the answer to why Moria did use 1000 shadows. It's really easy to understand try again and stop trolling around.

123

@MagneticMonkey:

The same thought can be applied to moria against luffy in the last minutes of the fight you should consider that he was desperate that all he did couldn't stop the SHs and Odz his mega plan to conquer the new world was completely defeated and unuseful. Think about it he was really desperate…

Not to nitpick, but it isnt that much of the case for Moria. Moria would have got rid of the rest of SHs minus Luffy if Luffy hadn't interfere. He used Shadow Asgard because he 'lost it' and not because he thought he couldn't stop the SHs and his mega plan being useless.

MagneticMonkey

@123:

Not to nitpick, but it isnt that much of the case for Moria. Moria would have got rid of the rest of SHs minus Luffy if Luffy hadn't interfere. He used Shadow Asgard because he 'lost it' and not because he thought he couldn't stop the SHs and his mega plan being useless(A bit of the case though.)

His mega plan was ruined Odz lost and Luffy was still there to oppose him that's the reason he lost all his cool not thinking straight anymore. He did the same thing that croc did he started babbling stuff like "i know the level of the sea" and i will show you nightmare. And he just sucked all the shadows to crush luffy.
The SHs + luffy defeated Odz. If they wouldn't have been there luffy would pobably have problems defeating Odz. I mean what they did was excellent teamwork. And that seems to be what Moria and his crew can't. He is just commanding his zombies here and there without really fighting with them. It's not the same spirit. And that's why he was alone at the end and after receiving so much on the head you can't really expect him to think straight.

Situation was:
Moria was there alone and all the SHs were standing there facing him and luffy was fighting and winning against him. So yeah in that case it "makes sense" for him to gather all he has to end this fight. A desperate act if you ask me.

123

My fault , i should have further elaborate rather so that you wouldnt have to type so much. Lets do a recap on SHs vs Moria. Round 1 was Moria on Odz in the end he managed to defeated the SHs minus Luffy,Ussop and Nami. It was the interference of Luffy that Moria couldn't kill/defeat the rest .Round 2 was the begining of Moria losing it and using Shadow Asgard.
@MagneticMonkey:

you should consider that he was desperate that all he did couldn't stop the SHs

He couldn't stop the SHs? He stopped the SHs the first round minus Luffy,Ussop and Nami. He was completely confident and the results shows that he did.(minus Luffy,Ussop and Nami)And when NL came, he was completely taken surprised by the power-up Luffy had and it was after Moria learned the reason of NL then did he got angry. And back then he was still confident after all its still round 1.
@MagneticMonkey:

The SHs + luffy defeated Odz. If they wouldn't have been there luffy would pobably have problems defeating Odz.

Sure the SHs + luffy got back up and managed to make Odz immobile. It may have been a short term factor, but if it was Moria didn't really show it .

@MagneticMonkey:

I mean what they did was excellent teamwork. And that seems to be what Moria and his crew can't.

What Moria's crew cant do? According to Moria they were powerful and useful, so if you ask me Moria's crew were good. It was seeing the SH crew that made him lost it, read the one below for more.
@MagneticMonkey:

Luffy was still there to oppose him that's the reason he lost all his cool not thinking straight anymore.

At that time Moria lost it, not because Luffy alone was still there to oppose him but because Luffy was there with his crew not wanting to backdown . It was this that made Moria emotional. He started rmbing his lost and wanted to prove his worth.Which is why he used Shadow Asgard to prove his strength . Perhaps this was what you wanted to say , i feel like im nitpicking, if so i'm sorry.
@MagneticMonkey:

Moria was there alone and all the SHs were standing there facing him and luffy was fighting and winning against him. So yeah in that case it "makes sense" for him to gather all he has to end this fight. A desperate act if you ask me.

To Luffy he may have thought that he was winning, but to Moria? No way , he got completely surprised by some kid who used his power in round 1, if its you im sure you would have felt the same thing. Anyway the main thing i wanted to tackle was the one above.

Kaizoku-Syn

"At that time Moria lost it, not because Luffy alone was still there to oppose him but because Luffy was there with his crew not wanting to backdown . It was this that made Moria emotional. He started rmbing his lost and wanted to prove his worth.Which is why he used Shadow Asgard to prove his strength . Perhaps this was what you wanted to say , i feel like im nitpicking, if so i'm sorry."

The fault of most shichibukais…when they meet luffy they get emotional. Sigh dam them there emotions to hell.

Silence

@Kaizoku-Syn:

"At that time Moria lost it, not because Luffy alone was still there to oppose him but because Luffy was there with his crew not wanting to backdown . It was this that made Moria emotional. He started rmbing his lost and wanted to prove his worth.Which is why he used Shadow Asgard to prove his strength . Perhaps this was what you wanted to say , i feel like im nitpicking, if so i'm sorry."

The fault of most shichibukais…when they meet luffy they get emotional. Sigh dam them there emotions to hell.

You kidding? I think the fact that them losing their cool and their hubris is what leads them to losing is awesome. It's because of this that we can even have arguments about how strong the Shichibukai are. That Crocodile and Moria can still be considered completely threatening this late in the story is because we know that if they had kept it all together in a rematch, they might still pose a serious threat.

You know, come to think of it, it seems most Shichibukai have an overpowered, OHKO technique.

Crocodile: If he can touch you it's over.
Moria: Cuts your shadow, puts you completely at his mercy.
Kuma: If he touches you he can send you flying across the world.
Blackbeard: Can nullify Devil Fruit powers with a touch.
Boa Hancock: Can turn almost anyone into stone (she was utterly shocked when it didn't work on Luffy so I can assume it works on almost everybody)
Doflamingo: Of course we don't know the details of his fruit yet, controlling other people's bodies is pretty damn broken.

123

@Silence:

You kidding? I think the fact that them losing their cool and their hubris is what leads them to losing is awesome.

I agree with this too .

Kaizoku-Syn

what happend to mihawks OHKO?

onemoment

@MagneticMonkey:

His mega plan was ruined Odz lost and Luffy was still there to oppose him that's the reason he lost all his cool not thinking straight anymore. He did the same thing that croc did he started babbling stuff like "i know the level of the sea" and i will show you nightmare. And he just sucked all the shadows to crush luffy.
The SHs + luffy defeated Odz. If they wouldn't have been there luffy would pobably have problems defeating Odz. I mean what they did was excellent teamwork. And that seems to be what Moria and his crew can't. He is just commanding his zombies here and there without really fighting with them. It's not the same spirit. And that's why he was alone at the end and after receiving so much on the head you can't really expect him to think straight.

Situation was:
Moria was there alone and all the SHs were standing there facing him and luffy was fighting and winning against him. So yeah in that case it "makes sense" for him to gather all he has to end this fight. A desperate act if you ask me.

I really don't think Moria had brain damage as you're implying. If he was the author should have put an effort into Moria slurring his speech or the like. As I've said many many times before, the guy gave a speech before using that technique. It doesn't make sense. Plus, Oda's expressions aren't that subtle.

Really, I've said all this before, but I hate the idea that Moria lost because he "lost control." It suggests a huge personal weakness and it incredibly wimpy. There's dignity in losing, a excuses like "he lost control and if he was serious he would have won" takes away that dignity.

I find all these implications that two shichibukai can't keep control of their emotions mid-combat very humiliating to the characters. Everyone doing this is frankly doing a huge disservice to the characters they claim to be a fan of.

MagneticMonkey

@123 i agree with your post. My main point is that we should consider that moria already thought nothing could happen after he got the shadows of the SHs he was confident enough to think they are finished but they really came back and were strong and it's like in a game where you have the upper hand and the opponent slowly becomes better and better have power moves that make you sweat and then you begin to loose your cool because the lost of control over the situation has a massive impact on your brain.

@onemoment
No i wasn't implying he suffered from brain damage. I mean he got punched by nightmare luffy. And regarding the psychological aspect of the fight we can assume that at the end Moria was alone and cornered. As magellan said "a cornered rat is surely dangerous". He wasn't thinking straight he was like "I will loose if i don't fight with all i got. I lost to kaidou and all my subordinates died and now i'm loosing again. Damn i will suck all the shadows".

The shichibukais aren't robots. They are humans and when they face someone with so much will power who is able to oppose them of course they will become crazy.

Jadosra

@MagneticMonkey:

No it's not as simple as that. And you if you read my post (which i doubt you did) you will find the answer to why they didn't use it against luffy. From croc one last attack to try to block him but knowing it's the end doesn't mean anything. And my post also has the answer to why Moria did use 1000 shadows. It's really easy to understand try again and stop trolling around.

No, it is really as simple as that.
They underestimated him, thus they used it at the end.
Don't come with stupid arguments, these are facts, they only used the most powerful attacks at the end (and in Crocodile's case, all the useful attacks, which is laughable).

@MagneticMonkey:

His mega plan was ruined Odz lost and Luffy was still there to oppose him that's the reason he lost all his cool not thinking straight anymore. He did the same thing that croc did he started babbling stuff like "i know the level of the sea" and i will show you nightmare. And he just sucked all the shadows to crush luffy.
The SHs + luffy defeated Odz. If they wouldn't have been there luffy would pobably have problems defeating Odz. I mean what they did was excellent teamwork. And that seems to be what Moria and his crew can't. He is just commanding his zombies here and there without really fighting with them. It's not the same spirit. And that's why he was alone at the end and after receiving so much on the head you can't really expect him to think straight.

Alone, he would've defeated all of the SH's easily.
He lost his cool because Luffy surprised him and was against his pride (which is all One Piece is about, that and dreams), once again, as simple as that

Situation was:
Moria was there alone and all the SHs were standing there facing him and luffy was fighting and winning against him. So yeah in that case it "makes sense" for him to gather all he has to end this fight. A desperate act if you ask me.

OH REALLY?

Except that if he made it earlier, he would've killed him first. lol

@Silence:

You kidding? I think the fact that them losing their cool and their hubris is what leads them to losing is awesome. It's because of this that we can even have arguments about how strong the Shichibukai are. That Crocodile and Moria can still be considered completely threatening this late in the story is because we know that if they had kept it all together in a rematch, they might still pose a serious threat.

You know, come to think of it, it seems most Shichibukai have an overpowered, OHKO technique.

Crocodile: If he can touch you it's over.
Moria: Cuts your shadow, puts you completely at his mercy.
Kuma: If he touches you he can send you flying across the world.
Blackbeard: Can nullify Devil Fruit powers with a touch.
Boa Hancock: Can turn almost anyone into stone (she was utterly shocked when it didn't work on Luffy so I can assume it works on almost everybody)
Doflamingo: Of course we don't know the details of his fruit yet, controlling other people's bodies is pretty damn broken.

I agree with this post 100%
I liked seeing Luffy defeating the Shichibukai's, I don't like the Fanboys who actually think that Luffy is in the level of the Shichibukai's:unsure:

@onemoment:

I really don't think Moria had brain damage as you're implying. If he was the author should have put an effort into Moria slurring his speech or the like. As I've said many many times before, the guy gave a speech before using that technique. It doesn't make sense. Plus, Oda's expressions aren't that subtle.

He was with his Honor tarnished, it doesn't mean he will go all like "GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR, MORIA HATE LUFFY FOR MILLIONS YEARS"

Really, I've said all this before, but I hate the idea that Moria lost because he "lost control." It suggests a huge personal weakness and it incredibly wimpy. There's dignity in losing, a excuses like "he lost control and if he was serious he would have won" takes away that dignity.

So what? The fact is that Moria made a mistake, underestimating them, if he didn't underestimate them in the beginning, he would win.

I find all these implications that two shichibukai can't keep control of their emotions mid-combat very humiliating to the characters. Everyone doing this is frankly doing a huge disservice to the characters they claim to be a fan of.

I'm not a fan of Moria, and I don't care much about Crocodile (altough he's pretty baddass), the fact is that they mocked Luffy till the end, and if he wasn't underestimated from the beginning, they wouldn't be surprised, and thus wouldn't lost it.
Thus, they would've destroyed Luffy.

~@MagneticMonkey:

@123 i agree with your post. My main point is that we should consider that moria already thought nothing could happen after he got the shadows of the SHs he was confident enough to think they are finished but they really came back and were strong and it's like in a game where you have the upper hand and the opponent slowly becomes better and better have power moves that make you sweat and then you begin to loose your cool because the lost of control over the situation has a massive impact on your brain.

? Wait, which side are you on?
Do you agree that Moria would've won if he didn't underestimate them?
If so, join aboard, choo choo!!!

@onemoment
No i wasn't implying he suffered from brain damage. I mean he got punched by nightmare luffy. And regarding the psychological aspect of the fight we can assume that at the end Moria was alone and cornered. As magellan said "a cornered rat is surely dangerous". He wasn't thinking straight he was like "I will loose if i don't fight with all i got. I lost to kaidou and all my subordinates died and now i'm loosing again. Damn i will suck all the shadows".

No, wrong.
He was crazy with "Oh yeah? This faggot thinks he can use 100 shadows, and why the hell is he still surviving? That's it, I'm gonna show him who's the boss here, even if it destroys my body and 300 would be enough, SHADOWS ASGARD!!!"

The shichibukais aren't robots. They are humans and when they face someone with so much will power who is able to oppose them of course they will become crazy.

I agree…
Except Luffy isn't able to oppose them.

@maase

please dont start all this what if nonsense about the whole moria arc, yes he underestimated them but after cutting their shadows he could have thrown them into the sea, basically they both underestimated eachother, luckily for the sh crew moria needed their shadows, that was the defining moment that gave them the chance to counter-attack…..

basically the crew underestimated him but got a second chance, moria didn't.

remember the whole underestimating your opponent is part of why the crew has come so far, who has faced Luffy and thought he was capable of surpassing them?

h3h3h3

Based on what Oda stated about three world powers; Shichibukai=MHQ=Yonkou

Now this would mean that Shichibukai are as powerful as Fleet Admiral, Admirals, VAs etc, and as powerful as Whitebeard, Shanks, Kaidou and the last emperor(lol unintended Fedor pun).

Now based on Crocodile and Moria, remaining Shichibukai should be monsters if what Oda really said is true. We've also got to remember that the equilibrium was before Blackbeard joined Shichibukai which makes it even less believable.

i.Train[Harder]

So all this talk about these characters but when are we gonna actually see them?

onemoment

@h3h3h3:

Based on what Oda stated about three world powers; Shichibukai=MHQ=Yonkou

Now this would mean that Shichibukai are as powerful as Fleet Admiral, Admirals, VAs etc, and as powerful as Whitebeard, Shanks, Kaidou and the last emperor(lol unintended Fedor pun).

Now based on Crocodile and Moria, remaining Shichibukai should be monsters if what Oda really said is true. We've also got to remember that the equilibrium was before Blackbeard joined Shichibukai which makes it even less believable.

I'm a little confused, is there a typo here? "the equilibium was before Blackbeard joined shichibukai which makes it even less believable." Do you or don't you believe in the balance?

Well, I think people put too much stock into the balance. With the way the story is going, I think having one of these three factions fall will be part of the overal manga's storyline. And out of the three, I think the shichibukai are the most likely to fall. Keep in mind, this doesn't mean that all the shichibukai need to lose for this will happen, I'm thinking instead major betrayals will break them apart.

MagneticMonkey

@Jadosra:

No, it is really as simple as that.
They underestimated him, thus they used it at the end.
Don't come with stupid arguments, these are facts, they only used the most powerful attacks at the end (and in Crocodile's case, all the useful attacks, which is laughable).

Lol exactly. And why did they underestimated him? Yeah you know the answer…

Alone, he would've defeated all of the SH's easily.
He lost his cool because Luffy surprised him and was against his pride (which is all One Piece is about, that and dreams), once again, as simple as that

Why does he has so much pride. Why did he lost his cool? You must think about it then you might find the answer.

? Wait, which side are you on?
Do you agree that Moria would've won if he didn't underestimate them?
If so, join aboard, choo choo!!!

I never said that i think luffy is 100% stronger than the 2 shichis he fought… If you read my posts you will see that mentally luffy is the strongest and in a fight where psychology plays an important role luffy is a badass cause his will was greater than morias or crocs...

If you think they all lost because they underestimated him then i think you must go through the fights again. I will repeat myself. It isn't that easy. They might have stronger DFs but the fights are not only DF or physical power etc... Again why did they lost their cool? Because luffy showed them that they are wrong and they can't stand someone who will teach them something in the OP world. They're arrogant over confident etc... And luffy is just a rookie and was able to withstand their mental aggression..

Zik

@Kaizoku-Syn:

"At that time Moria lost it, not because Luffy alone was still there to oppose him but because Luffy was there with his crew not wanting to backdown . It was this that made Moria emotional. He started rmbing his lost and wanted to prove his worth.Which is why he used Shadow Asgard to prove his strength . Perhaps this was what you wanted to say , i feel like im nitpicking, if so i'm sorry."

The fault of most shichibukais…when they meet luffy they get emotional. Sigh dam them there emotions to hell.

What's even more sad/convenient is that the only shichi who seems to lack emotion or has great control over it is either their ally or is helping them for ulterior motives and might not ever fight them

h3h3h3

@onemoment:

I'm a little confused, is there a typo here? "the equilibium was before Blackbeard joined shichibukai which makes it even less believable." Do you or don't you believe in the balance?

I'm trying to, if this was stated after Blackbeard had joined, it would be more believable, simply because Blackbeard should be a monster. Now this was stated before BB joined and when Crocodile was a Shichibukai. I think Crocodile does not compare to top-tier, he's actually not even close.

Mihawk should be equal to a yonkou
Moria was equal with his crew.
Kuma seems powerful
Hancock atm does not seem to be powerful enough to take on Yonkou.
Jinbei would probably be able to take on a Yonkou with his fishmen
Doflamingo, can't say anything really
Crocodile is not even close

Mihawk=1 Yonkou
Moria and Kuma=1 Yonkou
Hancock and Jinbei=1 Yonkou?
Doflamingo and Croc=1 Yonkou?

I don't know.

MagneticMonkey

@h3h3h3:

I'm trying to, if this was stated after Blackbeard had joined, it would be more believable, simply because Blackbeard should be a monster. Now this was stated before BB joined and when Crocodile was a Shichibukai. I think Crocodile does not compare to top-tier, he's actually not even close.

Mihawk should be equal to a yonkou
Moria was equal with his crew.
Kuma seems powerful
Hancock atm does not seem to be powerful enough to take on Yonkou.
Jinbei would probably be able to take on a Yonkou with his fishmen
Doflamingo, can't say anything really
Crocodile is not even close

Mihawk=1 Yonkou
Moria and Kuma=1 Yonkou
Hancock and Jinbei=1 Yonkou?
Doflamingo and Croc=1 Yonkou?

I don't know.

Sigh… If the shichis are able to handle the yonkous why didn't they rushed the new world with the marines?
Why not? because they can't... So it's more like MHQ+Shichi == 1 Yonkou + crew. (i wrote 1 yonkou cause everyone knows the yonkous won't ally since they're enemies)

SunWuKong

@MagneticMonkey:

Sigh… If the shichis are able to handle the yonkous why didn't they rushed the new world with the marines?
Why not? because they can't... So it's more like MHQ+Shichi == 1 Yonkou + crew. (i wrote 1 yonkou cause everyone knows the yonkous won't ally since they're enemies)

so it means that when mihawk and shanks (who is a yonkou) are equal, the other shichi plus the whole MHQ = shank's crew????!!!!!