@brennen.exe:
This one. Also, feel free to read and critique this one as well =)
I actually answered the first one, however, I must've forgot to post the answer…
@brennen.exe:
Oz was Moria's master plan. Knowing this, you have to ask yourself, why would Moria make his "master plan" weaker than he is? He wouldn't! We have to assume that – zombie invincibility aside -- Oz was much stronger than Moria.
Answer:
Now Moria relies on other people to do his dirty work and removes all his emotional attachments.
Given that, Oz still lost. So Moria ganged the Strawhats with all his zombies and that failed, and then the Strawhats ganged Moria's master zombie and beat it. What was left was a desperate Moria that could have run away, but then the Strawhats could have just hidden in the shadows until night time. Moria also could have absorbed less shadows, but what does that even prove? That "if" Moria always had years worth of stolen (and worthy) shadows, he could absorb them and defeat a strong enemy? Talk about a conditional victory. His shadow powers proved in the last fight with Luffy to not be that effective on Luffy outside of some scratches and bites from brick bat. Even if he could perceive Luffy's soru and Gear 2nd movement, he couldn't defend from it or do much about it, so I think it is fair to assume Luffy could have won by himself if you took out all of Moria's 10-year-plan advantages.
Fine…
If Luffy didn't find the Rubber Fruit, he wouldn't have defeated Moria.
HURRRRRR DURRRRRRRRRRR
Now, how about we go to actually good arguments?
Fine, let me rephrase: "Looks like Croc did use some of his sand logia attacks, not just his kill-everything-hand and hook/poison." Sand is sand…is sand is sand. Be it spada, sables, chordettes, or a litterbox, if "hand covered in blood" > "blade made of sand" then you can pretty much bet everything else will have the same fate. Those blades of sand didn't work on Luffy's bloody-punch. The second fight they had pretty much shows this. Luffy was waling on Croc the entire fight. The only two sand attacks he used was a "blade of sand" and a quick sandstorm to blow the water away. Once he got "pissed", all he did was use his right hand to erode everything, giving him the chance to grab Luffy since Luffy was surprised, full of water, and about to fall off the cliff. None of those inconveniences for Luffy existed in the Royal Tomb, so Croc didn't have the advantage of just eroding the whole tomb, nor did he get the chance to get his hands on Luffy. So if you look at all three of their fights, Crocodile uses the same attacks and doesn't "hold back" in the 3rd. And no Schmeckie, he didn't have a handicap. Also, even if he did, he didn't "do well". He only managed to scrape Luffy once with a poisonous hook while Luffy hit him almost every time he swung. That's getting your ass kicked. Seriously, go read their last two fights. Go. Especially the last one. Luffy kicks his ass in both. In the second one Croc erodes Luffy's footing and manages to grab his neck and suck his body dry. The last fight he tries to grab Luffy but Luffy keeps evading. I read the last fight LOOKING for "luck" and couldn't find it. I saw Croc being cocky, as always, but still fighting his hardest.
The reason why Luffy was able to pass through them was because the blades were too weak.
His skin wouldn't be able to pass though Barchan, Sarbles Pesado, etc, etc. (In fact, we got proof of that)
I just don't get you guys. Fight one was unfair for Luffy as Croc was a sand logia in the desert and Luffy knew absolutely nothing.
Agreed.
Altough he can pretty much turn everything in a desert, but I won't argue much here.
Fight two Luffy came prepared and kicked Croc's ass, but then Croc got his hand on Luffy (ONCE) and dried him out. That's like getting beat to a bloody pulp and then going back with a gun and shooting the guy in the head; you still got your ass handed to you, and just got a cheap and circumstantial OHKO at the end.
LOLWUT?
Crocodile was got by surprise, he then surprised Luffy.
The surprise of Luffy didn't do nothing to kick Crocodile's ass.
The surprise of Crocodile kicked Luffy's ass.
As simple as that.
The third fight Luffy came beaten and bruised, but had the will to fight and was (again) prepared. They both gave their all, and Luffy was even poisoned, yet Croc still got his ass kicked. This time, Croc wasn't so lucky and didn't manage to get his hack-hand on Luffy for an cheap win. THINK about it. Croc has two hands: one is poisonous and stabby hook-hand, the other is an instant death hand, yet he still couldn't even manage to HURT Luffy outside of a little scratch and some poison. Oh, but Luffy just got lucky…
Crocodile didn't give his all, he was mocking Luffy and fighting Hand to Hand, also trying to see why he continued to fight him, even though he would just go back to hell.
The only time Crocodile actually tried to use the Hand of death was to mock him, as seen clearly, Crocodile was smiling when Luffy got afraid of that hand.
Seriously, even in the end, Crocodile was surprised by his will, but still seiing him as the biggest rookie ever, and mocking him.
@barkadat3p:
I thought Luffy said that it didn't affect him cause he's rubber???
He also said "No one can dream to defeat me"
He got defeated by Ao Kiji and Kizaru, so…
It was just baddassery speach.
I'm not underestimating Moria like I said he's a shichibukai for a reason and that means that the government acknowledges his abilities…which is proof enough that he's strong.
True, also, he got called to fight Whitebeard, proof enough that he's stronger than Whitebeard.
errr…no my point is I see Moria underestimating Luffy as part of his weakness (like brennen said a character flaw) and not the only reason why Luffy won (he only exploited this flaw like any other weaknesses) . That's why I give this win to "Luffy" and not to "luck because Luffy got underestimated" which is your argument correct???
My argument from the beginning as been:
"If Luffy was more famous, Moria wouldn't have underestimated him, thus he would have win.
Do you seriously believe Moria would be lazy if Luffy was known for freeing Ace from Impel Down, for example?
In fact, Moria didn't even know nothing.
If the World Government called him to attack Luffy, we would have him not underestimated.
@fedcom:
You keep saying that "if only Moria had used less shadows he would have won"
If Moria was using…say 300 shadows, he may have won (IMO thats unlikely) but that's hardly a 1 on 1 battle is it?
That's the whole point of Moria's fruit, to steal shadows and use them.
The fact is that its still him using the attacks.
Besides, I believe that even 1 VS 1, Moria could defeat Luffy.
@Geo:
Everyone's forgot about Enel :P
Except Enel didn't really underestimate Luffy, he was afraid of him with that fucking funny face, while Crocodile was "Oh.. you found my weakness, hun? It doesn't matter" and Moria was "You're annoying me… SHADOW ASGARD"
@brennen.exe:
Crocodile's right hand is no-holds-barred instant KO if he catches you with it. That makes his hand a bit "broken" in the sense that all he has to do is touch you and it's game over. That is what most would refer to as cheap, no? I mean we accept it as part of Croc, but it is cheap. He touches Whitebeard with that hand and Whitebeard is dead. Are you going to say he is stronger than Whitebeard because of that hand? No. Circumstantial. Had he not been 10 stories high up and had Luffy not been full of water, Luffy would not be concerned about falling and/or would have just jumped around and continued dodging. Unfortunately for Luffy, they were and he was, and therefore Crocodile had a circumstantial chance to grab Luffy with his broken and cheap hand. Given this information, Luffy had a complete victory in round 3 since Luffy showed he would could hammer Croc and keep clear of the hands.
Its cheap indeed, but its Crocodile's Devil Fruit, no point arguing with that.
And are you seriously comparing Whitebeard?
Whitebeard would take more time to dry and would simply give a punch to Crocodile while he sucked him and kill Crocodile.
Besides, Whitebeard might have Haki :ninja:
@MagneticMonkey:
1. Everything has been said about that topic and you still didn't achieve anything. Because many of the people you're arguing with are fanboys. It's simple :)
I always find funny that we are the Fanboys.
Dude… they're defending a guy who's still a Supernova... AGAINST 7 WARRIORS OF THE MARINE HEADQUARTERS.
Isn't this enough? This should've pretty much won the whole argument.
But whatever
@MagneticMonkey:
Maybe we should say that luffy didn't win the last battle? He stopped Croc and was dying from the poison? It's really simple. Croc was a monster back then. Intelligent and not so powerful when it comes to brute force that's why he perfected his logia ability. But he was stopped and knocked out by luffy. A winner isn't clear since luffy would have died if robin weren't around. So take it as: luffy managed to destroy crocs plan (that's where he really won. Cause ruining a plan someone like croc worked so hard is almost destroying him on a psychological level) but when it came to the fight i will say the last battle was a draw due to the poison…
Wrong, Luffy did indeed defeat Crocodile, there's no doubt of that.
There's also no doubt Luffy "surpassed" Crocodile.
Luffy standed while Crocodile was knocked out, as simple as that.
My argument has always been "If Crocodile didn't underestimate Luffy, he would've died" not "Crocodile won in the end"
Now before you argue about the last fight and why croc didn't use blah technique you must recall that he must have gone crazy with luffy almost dead still coming back to fight him ruining his plan and also having the guts to defy him. That's hard for him knowing he is so overconfident about his abilities etc… I mean he was so sure luffy was dead (twice). And he must (in the last battle) have thought: "WTF what kind of guy is he? Can't he just die? Is he a superhuman?". You have to remember that croc didn''t know luffy was helped. And Croc hadn't got the informations from Robin so shit everything was fucked up. So psychologically luffy had the upper hand.
First of all: The argument that started this is: "Crocodile would have won if Luffy was famous and he fought 1 on 1 without underestimation"
So, I guess you're on our side too? :)
Second: Crocodile mocked Luffy even after that, while being curious about him.
@brennen.exe:
It's not that simple. It's that it is an OHKO to anyone. Put it this way. If you can take ______ ability, put it in the hands of a 4 year AVERAGE child, and then pit him against Whitebeard and he wins because he TOUCHED Whitebeard. It's cheap, and shouldn't be used as a calculator of strength. Threat, yes. Strength, no. Also, if XX character defeats said cheap ability by kicking XX character's ass without getting touched, "luck" should have nothing to do with the win and XX character should be given appropriate praise for the accomplishment.
I agree the DF is cheap.
It doesn't matter, as much as you argue, its part of Crocodile.
Crocodile had the luck of eating that fruit, thus being a Shichibukai.
Our argument stands from that.
Once again, Whitebeard could punch Crocodile and knock him out even when getting touched, he's much more resistant than Luffy.
Also… Haki :ninja:
And, I agree Luffy would have gotten praise from beating him, you know... If Crocodile... you know... ACTUALLY TRIED TO USE THE DEATH HAND?
That's like saying the following:
"Portugal kicked one Army of Russia, thus it should be praised as the army who avoided a Nuclear Blast"
Don't play the "if" game. "If" they were left alone Luffy could have used a wet knife and cut Crocodile's head off after he KO'd him, then they both would have died.
**THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ARGUMENT FROM THE BEGINNING WAS THE FOLLOWING:
"IF CROCODILE DIDN'T UNDERESTIMATE LUFFY, LUFFY WOULD'VE DIED"
THUS, THE ARGUMENT IS OBVIOUSLY BASED ON "IF'"S
I SAID "IF", AND YOU JUMPED ON ME COUNTER ATTACKING, I DIDN'T SEE YOU ATTACKING IF'S THEN
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Breaths heavily
I feel better**