General 'Haki' Discussion

[Saturnchild]

@I:

Much else about him is purely speculation, I'm afraid. I, myself, am rather addicted to specualtion, but you can't really use it in a debate as absolute proof of something else–like whether or not Mihawk has haki. See where I'm going with this?

As real proof probably no. But is a very reasonable assumption since from what we know each vice admiral can use Haki.

Mihawk wouldn't be a shichibukai if he could take on a Yonkou. And I don't think mihawk wants revenge but he did seem interested in testing his strength against whitebeard to see how he'd do. Which means he doesn't consider himself at Yonkou level at all.

We don't know what Yonkous level is yet. Whitebeard seemed immensely strong, to the point where even thought he was old, sick, with injuries that would have killed pretty much everybody managed to beat the shit out of an Admiral. We don't really know if the other Yonkou are that strong as well. Just like we don't know just how strong Mihawk can be. As we have seen there is a difference between the power level of the shichibukai with some of them being rather pathetic and relying on tricks like Moria while other like Mihawk or Kuma seem like pure beasts

Anyway, I don't expect Sanji to be able to use both of the main colors effectively since he didn't have a proper teacher. However, there's no reason that in 2 entire years he couldn't have become really good at using basic CoA and perhaps a tiny bit of CoO.

I think it would make more sense for Sanji to learn some kind of a vastly different skills then Haki which is still capable of hitting logias

[Ryuksgelus]

@Coruscation:

You thought I meant it literally? As I read it he acknowledged them as a powerful force, in his own way of course. They were confident they could break past and apparently did so just fine without them being injured. Something then seems incredibly wrong with the idea that Kizaru could sit there and do absolutely nothing and they'd be utterly useless against him, literally not being able to as much as lay a finger on him. Rather I see it as something suggesting that these guys, highly respected fighters in the world's greatest pirate crew, actually have something that can hurt an Admiral, that makes it so that he can't just shrug them off because he's a lolLogia… like Haki.

I knew what you meant and thought you'd get me. He wasn't bothered by them at all he went "oh how scary" and proceeded to do his normal thing. He can still be dispersed as shown by Chain Chomp and Apoo. I think its telling that Oda has Akainu comment about how annoying Marco and Vista were but pages beforehand shows us Curiel unable to do anything vs. Akainu. Why tell us flat out Vista has haki setting him apart from the rest of the commanders but put no emphasis on the rest if they have the same skill?

So you're going to keep regurgitating your points without explaining to me why my views don't work? Beckman was the only person who Kizaru tried to be careful around. I think that is because he is overall very powerful and he has Haki. Not because his Haki is better than the commanders even together.

So they're all granted it like some god-given gift and it's not a product of proper training and hard work. Gotcha. Except that I disagree because that doesn't sound One Piece to me at all. Seems much more likely that they know Haki because using it is ingrained into their warrior culture, they are taught to manifest it properly since childhood and can thus do it. It's not genes, it's not fate, it's not some gift from above; it's proper training and working hard for it and consequently achieving it. THAT seems to fit far better into the general mold of this series.

Or its a combination of it training and coming natural to them? Why do you keep talking about such extreme scenarios like? I didn't say a thing about god gifted ability? Why can't they all be like Aisa? Because it doesn't feel like OP to you? Smoker talks about the Kuja's Haki which sound to me that it is exceedingly rare in Paradise that only one tribe comes up when encounter a user. If fodder amazons have Haki purely because of training and not because its natural to them then more marines should have Haki. Instead few if any below Vice admiral do.

Because you're acting like there're maybe 15-20 people in the whole fucking New World that have it as far as pirates go. That sounds ridiculous in my ears. He never implied that it's that rare. It's a skill that you can train to achieve. Train right, be taught by the right person, and you can bring it out just fine. If you do something wrong though, chances are you'll never succeed which is probably what Rayleigh was referring to. It could also have to do with mindset and whatnot of course which in the case of Teach as you mentioned could be a possibility, but I would see that as more a result of his mentality not letting him really learn it. Ray said something like "To not doubt… that is strength!" which gave me the impression that you need to get the right 'mindset' down so to speak which someone like Teach who is villainous in nature in a couple of ways may not have been capable of doing. But that shouldn't hold back others.

Really? 15-20? No I was arguing I don't think every pirate or fighter who reaches a certain level of power and experience has Haki when we see plenty of high tiers who do not have Haki. You're making a far more extreme case for its rarity than I am. Only thing I'm arguing is that maybe it is a little harder than you're making it out to be. An idea you seem to be going out of your way to not even entertain.

He still said you can train all your life and never unlock Haki. You're presupposing its something you can simply be thought once you achieved enough skill and get it eventually when there is no strong case for that. No, Rayleigh's line indicates that even with hard work it can still be hard to unlock. Why do you think Rayleigh is only talking about smucks doing it wrong and not people considered skilled?

Really makes no sense regarding Teach. Why would being a bastard mean you can't achieve Haki?

Being Whitebeard's best - the best of the strongest pirate crew in the world - makes it clear that they are extremely highly regarded. We don't really need any clearer info than that. They were the overall most respected fighters on the side of the pirates in general in a war between the mightiest of the mighty.

Compared to who? If they do have Haki that just makes them come off as weaklings since it didn't help many times. Them not having Haki explains why they did squat to Admirals and don't come as that inferior.

People like Doma, Squado, Declaven Brothers, Mcguy, Iva, Jinbe, along with some other New World captains had as much screen time and emphasis than them if not more in some cases.

But everyone is not a Logia who was specifically shown being held back by weapons that normally shouldn't have an effect on him and was later shown having been pushed back away from the man who was the only one he cared about. With this being an arc where Oda was often showcasing Haki in various ways and forms, subtly or not-so-subtly, I don't see why this couldn't also have been a hint.

Once again grasping at straws. Its called being careful since his cover was blown and two people who kicked his ass in the past were standing 20 feet in front of him talking to one another. Haki users held back Croc but weren't shown to deal with Ace, smoker, Croc later, or even Luffy later? You'd think Oda would give some hint there were Haki users on the battlefield besides DC 5,3,1 and WB.

Every time Oda hinted at Haki it was very clear we were supposed to notice. Croc being held back was peculiar at first but fodder haki users exclusion from the rest of the war point that they don't exist. Jozu, WB, and Marco were obviously using it, Vista is said to, told VA have it, Admirals showcased something very similar to what Marigold&Sentomaru did, Smoker talked about Boa, Luffy maybe used CoC vs Mihawk(still iffy idea), Beckman got an Admiral to stop what he was doing, and Coby's behavior was immediately compared to Aisa by readers.

Spending years on a boat with proficient Haki means that Division Commander are some people who may possible have it but it is not proof. Oda did nothing to hint they had haki anywhere in the war. At least with VA we didn't see them enough to actually draw any conclusions. If anybody is going to surprise me its that group but hints point in the other direction.

[alucar_D]

Of course not everyone in WB's ship has haki, some of them did not seem to even know what it is. When Shanks entered to Moby Dick, Marco ordered the younger crewmembers to stay back, beacuse they wont survive Shank's haki.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2541-3/one-piece/chapter-434.html

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2541-4/one-piece/chapter-434.html
And here we can see that they dont have a clue about what Marco meant, and

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2541-5/one-piece/chapter-434.html
in this page, lots of WB's crewmembers have fainted.
(I dont understand the "Amazing vigor and drive" translation, correct translate is "Very powerful King's haki" or something like that.)

So, it is kind obvious that many younger/newbie members of WB crew have very slight knowledge about haki.

[Ryuksgelus]

I think Coruscation woudl argue the ones holding Croc back weren't the type to faint when Shanks came on board. Then I'd argue anybody like that would be on the front lines not attending the Moby dick.

[Coruscation]

He wasn't bothered by them at all he went "oh how scary" and proceeded to do his normal thing.

Which was to let the enemy forces past when they threaten to break through even though they're completely harmless to him? Sorry if I don't buy it.

I think its telling that Oda has Akainu comment about how annoying Marco and Vista were but pages beforehand shows us Curiel unable to do anything vs. Akainu.

To me that's simply him emphasizing the whole "Haki doesn't work 100%" thing by using the most powerful commanders (and Whitebeard) instead of having someone scream out Haki didn't work!! every time. If we see that Marco & Vista and even Newgate himself can sometimes fail to hit an Admiral then it suddenly becomes pretty easy to buy that and why Curiel failed.

Or its a combination of it being training and coming natural to them?

Why should it be coming naturally to all of them though? Does "they've got better genes" really sound very One Piece-ish to you? We all know that Luffy isn't as strong as he is because he's Dragon's son, it's because he grew up the way he did. Sabo, the child of some random asshat noble, was as strong as the Pirate King's son because they were growing up in the same way. The AL simply being very knowledgeable of Haki, having it ingrained into their warrior culture since far back and having passed on the best ways to manifest it makes much more sense to me than the given-at-birth disposition that ALL of them conveniently have.

Smoker talks about the Kuja's Haki which sound to me that it is exceedingly rare in Paradise

It is very rare in Paradise. I've not denied that, have I? The Kuja are known for their Haki because they've all got it.

Really? 15-20?

Here's what you said:

"I think being restricted to the best of the best and their closes comrades makes more sense."

That seems to wound up at 15-20 to me, there's the Emperor captains and their, oh, 3 top crewmates like Marco, Vista & Jozu. And there are 4 Emperors.

Personally I figure that lots of other powerful captains, their FMs and whatnot probably have it too. But you seem to think it should only be restricted to the absolute best and their strongest subordinates, so how does that wound up at significantly more at 15-20 again?

No Rayleigh line indicates that even with hard work it can still be pretty hard to unlock. Why do you think Rayleigh is only talking about smucks doing it wrong?

Really makes no sense regarding Teach. Why would being a bastard mean you can't achieve Haki?

I'm not saying it isn't pretty hard, man. I'm saying it shouldn't be restricted to "the best of the best and their closest" because it was never implied to be THAT rare. It's just a skill like any other. It can be very hard to bring out but with the proper training it should not be as difficult as you're purporting, to the point where extremely, extremely, extremely few people even in the New World are able to utilize it.

It's not being a bastard exactly, I'm suggesting that maybe your mindset and the way you can "let go" or "not doubt" has something to do with it. Think One Power from WoT. We still know very little about real Haki training so I don't get why you're acting as if it's preposterous. It's obviously hard in SOME way, so why can't this be the way?

Compared to who? My point is that even people who seem higher up the ladder than them do not seem capable of Haki.

People like Doma, Squado, Declaven Brothers, Mcguy, Iva, Jinbe, along with some other New World captains had as much screen time and at times more emphasis than them.

Perhaps there are, but there're probably reasons for it beyond "they weren't good enough to learn it". Like Magellan is a prison warden who has one of the strongest Devil Fruits we've seen and ID is full of seastone. Doflamingo may also be a victim of the "mindset" idea or his carefree nature didn't lend itself well to spending a lot of time learning Haki. But WB's division commanders don't use "haxed" DFs, they're just swordsmen, gunmen, ball-on-chainmen and so on. Haki is the perfect tool to strengthen such "simple" weapons as we saw with the Kuja's arrows. There's that part where #16 shoots a sword in half with his gun, that doesn't remind you of Haki strengthening the Kuja's arrows? I know it does to me.

And I'd say that a lot of those guys probably have Haki, too. Take Doma for example, Oda used him to hype Ace by letting us know that Ace defeated him. Great feat on Ace's part if he could just loll around and Doma couldn't lay a finger on him, right?

Every time Oda hinted at Haki it was very clear we were supposed to notice.

Like here?

http://www.mangareader.net/103-17409-14/one-piece/chapter-551.html

I'm sure far from everyone caught that on their own. Or that scene with the gun, which I interpret as a hint of Haki but I'm guessing you don't. And obviously the DCs threatening Kizaru is also something I read as they could do it because they've got Haki, the fact that you don't agree doesn't mean you can just say it wasn't a hint.

With the DCs I'm very much content to think that he simply used the ones that were the strongest and most important (Marco, Jozu, Vista) to convey the main points surrounding it and used scenes like the Kizaru scene, Curiel being surprised that he can't stop Akainu and #16's shooting a sword in half scene as subtle hints at them having it.

[blendingur69]

@alucar_D:

Of course not everyone in WB's ship has haki, some of them did not seem to even know what it is. When Shanks entered to Moby Dick, Marco ordered the younger crewmembers to stay back, beacuse they wont survive Shank's haki.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-2541-3/one-piece/chapter-434.html

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2541-4/one-piece/chapter-434.html
And here we can see that they dont have a clue about what Marco meant, and

http://www.mangareader.net/103-2541-5/one-piece/chapter-434.html
in this page, lots of WB's crewmembers have fainted.
(I dont understand the "Amazing vigor and drive" translation, correct translate is "Very powerful King's haki" or something like that.)

So, it is kind obvious that many younger/newbie members of WB crew have very slight knowledge about haki.

I very much like the way this guy thinks, he gets it!

[Sonic Youth]

It's almost funny how no one seems to want to teach each other about haki, I mean, it can't be studied in school or anything, but at least the world government and the marines know about it, so why do they want to keep a secret?

Or maybe just no one goes to school (because this seems like the case…)

[igetownd]

@Sonic:

It's almost funny how no one seems to want to teach each other about haki, I mean, it can't be studied in school or anything, but at least the world government and the marines know about it, so why do they want to keep a secret?

Or maybe just no one goes to school (because this seems like the case…)

If they could they would, is what I'd like to think.

But the only culture that teaches Haki, the Amazons, have it as a cultural secret. The only other sources of Haki knowledge are Rayleigh and Shanks' crew.

I think the marines don't teach Haki because they don't understand it well enough. All experienced pirates and marines know about it, and may even know about Haoushoku, but they don't understand it. Rayleigh seems to be the only man alive who understands it completely. That is unless Shanks has mastered his Haki to Rayleigh's level.

[Ryuksgelus]

@Coruscation:

Which was to let the enemy forces past when they threaten to break through even though they're completely harmless to him? Sorry if I don't buy it.

K. If they blow him to pieces then disappear into the crowd before he reforms they got past him. We see this with Akainu.

To me that's simply him emphasizing the whole "Haki doesn't work 100%" thing by using the most powerful commanders (and Whitebeard) instead of having someone scream out Haki didn't work!! every time. If we see that Marco & Vista and even Newgate himself can sometimes fail to hit an Admiral then it suddenly becomes pretty easy to buy that and why Curiel failed.

Before you can even come to such a conclusion you have to assume some sort of defense exists at all. You're not even speculating now just guesswork. You have an assumption(DC's have Haki) and to defend it your using another assumption(Admirals defense must have negated the ability they aren't shown to have)?

Why should it be coming naturally to all of them though?

Why can't they be like Aisa? You're stating more assumptions without stating any reasons why your conclusion is the best. I don't want to hear about what sounds like OP to you but why you believe they can't be like Aisa?

It is very rare in Paradise. I've not denied that, have I? The Kuja are known for their Haki because they've all got it.

But Haki is Haki. Smoker line would have made more sense if he said "damn Kuja's with their Haki" not referring to Haki as some sort of ability especially associated with a particular tribe.

Here's what you said:

"I think being restricted to the best of the best and their closes comrades makes more sense."

That seems to wound up at 15-20 to me, there's the Emperor captains and their, oh, 3 top crewmates like Marco, Vista & Jozu. And there are 4 Emperors.

Well that is you making more assumptions(also forgetting Thatch) because you can add Level 6 inmates to that list, strong warriors on other Islands like Elbaf, Wano, and etc., Revolutionary commanders, Autonomous pirates similar to Squado and Doma, VAs, and more people affiliated with the Government.

I'm not saying it isn't pretty hard, man. I'm saying it shouldn't be restricted to "the best of the best and their closest" because it was never implied to be THAT rare. It's just a skill like any other. It can be very hard to bring out but with the proper training it should not be as difficult as you're purporting, to the point where extremely, extremely, extremely few people even in the New World are able to utilize it.

You're purporting. Maybe I could have worded it better but best of the best I didn't mean just top tiers but anybody VA level and up. And you're right it wasn't said to be that rare its only shown to be that rare.

It's not being a bastard exactly, I'm suggesting that maybe your mindset and the way you can "let go" or "not doubt" has something to do with it. Think One Power from WoT. We still know very little about real Haki training so I don't get why you're acting as if it's preposterous. It's obviously hard in SOME way, so why can't this be the way?

Not saying it can't asking why do you think its Teach's unique reason for possible not unlocking Haki? Could be a lot of people with the wrong mindset including commanders who aren't on Teach's level.

Perhaps there are, but there're probably reasons for it beyond "they weren't good enough to learn it". Like Magellan is a prison warden who has one of the strongest Devil Fruits we've seen and ID is full of seastone. Doflamingo may also be a victim of the "mindset" idea or his carefree nature didn't lend itself well to spending a lot of time learning Haki. But WB's division commanders don't use "haxed" DFs, they're just swordsmen, gunmen, ball-on-chainmen and so on. Haki is the perfect tool to strengthen such "simple" weapons as we saw with the Kuja's arrows. There's that part where #16 shoots a sword in half with his gun, that doesn't remind you of Haki strengthening the Kuja's arrows? I know it does to me.

By not good enough I only mean its not practical for them to train their DF, fighting styles, and Haki while maintaining their operations like Prison running, crime operations, or just sailing around. I already said if it makes sense they are on the list of possible haki users and simply pointed out there are absolutely no signs and even some contradicting the idea.

And No the Geisha doing that is not a sign of Haki. That is being a badass gunman and shooting a sword at close range. That is nothing like blowing up boulders and stone walls with arrows. Bullets beat thin blades of steel.

And I'd say that a lot of those guys probably have Haki, too. Take Doma for example, Oda used him to hype Ace by letting us know that Ace defeated him. Great feat on Ace's part if he could just loll around and Doma couldn't lay a finger on him, right?

I think Doma has a very high chance of having Haki. Mentioning Doma then telling us Ace got the 2nd division captain seat afterward seemed intentional by Oda. That sort of subtle build up really wasn't given to most of the DCs.

Like here?

http://www.mangareader.net/103-17409-14/one-piece/chapter-551.html

I'm sure far from everyone caught that on their own. Or that scene with the gun, which I interpret as a hint of Haki but I'm guessing you don't. And obviously the DCs threatening Kizaru is also something I read as they could do it because they've got Haki, the fact that you don't agree doesn't mean you can just say it wasn't a hint.

Nope. That to me was just Oda covering his bases dozens of chapters before Akainu burst from the ground to pursue Jinbei and Luffy.

There was no interpretation to be made in any example I gave you. Those scenes are either clear examples of Haki(Jozu,Admiral shield, Coby's Mantra) or direct mentions of Haki. Shooting a sword, extra-sensitive hearing, and having balls to go up against an Admiral are not. Taken at face value they are nothing but what they are. When has CoC ever been associated with ears?

With the DCs I'm very much content to think that he simply used the ones that were the strongest and most important (Marco, Jozu, Vista) to convey the main points surrounding it and used scenes like the Kizaru scene, Curiel being surprised that he can't stop Akainu and #16's shooting a sword in half scene as subtle hints at them having it.

The Geisha shooting a sword being a sign of Haki is dumb as fuck. That is like saying Iva's winks are Haki and Zoro used CoC to dodge Carlos bullets. Its actually dumber cuz I can see the logic in thinking there must be some magical reason for supersonic wink air blasts besides very strong eye muscles. I say we pretend you never mentioned such a thing.

Vista is a new character that Oda set a part from the rest of the commanders. Oda had Akainu mention him being a Haki user to tell us he is a Haki user. No questions about it. If Oda wanted us to understand they all had Haki all it would take is one single scene or comment and there would be no debate.

[Samwize78]

This is aimed at the people on this thread that think haki is something anyone can learn. It kinda is. My point being that Rayleigh said to Luffy that everyone has haki, but they just need to know how to use it. Yes, I'm sure there are people out there who have tried to master it but failed, and some who succeeded (New World pirates). So, yes you can master haki, you just gotta have strong will like Luffy. Jeez Oda look what you've done to us!!

[Coruscation]

Don't really have the patience to keep this up any longer, just a few comments:

I don't want to hear about what sounds like OP to you but why you believe they can't be like Aisa?

If it's somehow not clear by now, those are inseparable. The reason I conclude that it's got more to do with training honed to perfection among their warriors and teachers over many long years as opposed to natural selection is that the former feels OP to me and the latter doesn't. That's the whole of it. If you really disagree, then I can't convince you any further.

Smoker line would have made more sense if he said "damn Kuja's with their Haki" not referring to Haki as some sort of ability especially associated with a particular tribe.

Well for one, I'm not sure he really knew very much about Haki given his line:

"Someone managed to attack my body of smoke…?!!"

Seems to me like he didn't understand what was happening at all. 2nd I would actually assume that what he commented on was Hancock's Sovereign Haki, since she was staring him down in a fit of rage and we can see him lower his head and start sweating. Seems a bit to me like people like Kidd and Law reacted when they were affected by Ray's S. Haki (didn't want to use the more common acronym there). 3rd the Kuja are affiliated with Haki because they're known for all being able to use it. Coupled with Smoker probably not being fully knowledgeable on matters of Haki (do you think that someone like Aokiji would've said the same thing?) I'd say that explains why he put it the way he did.

extra-sensitive hearing

I seriously doubt that's what it was. You can see that at first, the Admirals simply "notices" it, but Akainu's ear twitching isn't shown until a few panels later. I don't see that as a coincidence. CoO Haki is to sense presences out of sight or even hearing range, and I imagine they were all having their CoO activated at maximum in preparation for the up-and-coming attack. Seems pretty clear to me. Though I guess your position is still pretty reasonable given that another up-and-coming top-tier Marine has also shown proof of amazing hearing.

Anyway that's about all I've left to say. Thanks for a pretty insightful discussion (well it was so to me since I am considering your positions a bit more than I would have done before, though you don't seem to have been particularly swayed).

[alucar_D]

@Coruscation:

I seriously doubt that's what it was. You can see that at first, the Admirals simply "notices" it, but Akainu's ear twitching isn't shown until a few panels later. I don't see that as a coincidence. CoO Haki is to sense presences out of sight or even hearing range, and I imagine they were all having their CoO activated at maximum in preparation for the up-and-coming attack. Seems pretty clear to me. Though I guess your position is still pretty reasonable given that another up-and-coming top-tier Marine has also shown proof of amazing hearing.

When Whitebeard arrived to Marinford, Admirals just heard him coming. Otherwise there would not have been any point to show that Sakazuki's ear twitched, so that panel strongly hinted that it was just hearing. Also, Sengoku, Tsuru and Garp noticed WB's coming by hearing it, as did some fodder marines in few panels after admirals. This MAY mean that the admirals heard it first, but they could just have been SHOWN to heard it first as well. I dont know.

Also, that page showing Smoker in Alabasta; I think that Oda just wanted to show that Smoker has very high concentration skill and that he can stay sharp even in tough situations.

[Coruscation]

But Oda showed his ear twitching after he noticed it. That just screams Color of Observation, the power to sense that which lies out of sight, to me. I think he was making a point out of it, that Akainu first sensed it, then heard it. With the knowledge that the Admirals all use Haki I really do think this is the most logical conclusion. If you were Oda and wanted to portray that Akainu used CoO here, how would you write it?

Of course, it was that, too. But it's pretty amazing hearing nevertheless.

[flandrian15]

Also, at least someone with CoO equipped should have sensed BB and his crew especially since there's a guy in their crew that's almost bigger than marineford itself.

[Coruscation]

The difference though is that at the start, everyone was sitting quietly and waiting for the inevitable. The Admirals, the greatest the Marines had to offer, their most important combat force, were surely keeping their senses razor sharp and no less. With the confirmation that they use Haki and the way his ear was shown twitching after he noticed their presence, it simply suggests CoO to me.

Later on in the midst of a chaotic battlefield, things are quite different.

[Ryuksgelus]

@Coruscation:

But Oda showed his ear twitching after he noticed it. That just screams Color of Observation, the power to sense that which lies out of sight, to me. I think he was making a point out of it, that Akainu first sensed it, then heard it. With the knowledge that the Admirals all use Haki I really do think this is the most logical conclusion. If you were Oda and wanted to portray that Akainu used CoO here, how would you write it?

Of course, it was that, too. But it's pretty amazing hearing nevertheless.

Why? There is no precedent to CoC being hinted at like that. Luffy v. Mihawk is he vaguest hint of Haki as it may just be weird writing on Oda's part. With the exception of Mihawk v. Luffy all examples of Haki in the war were very blatant. Anybody who remembered Aisa from hundreds of chapters ago was correct to make that comparison.

Sensed or were simply alarmed that something was coming from the Bay? This is your imagination not a sign of Haki because this scene does have to be Haki related. Taken at face value it can be and most likely is nothing more than what was shown. Just because it happened a few panels later does not mean it happened later in time either. They were alarmed because they heard something.

You ever heard of Occam's Razor at all? Most of your argument is assumption on top of assumption to defend your original assumption. All that does is open up more and more opportunities for you to be proven wrong, not improve your case. Asking how would Oda portray CoC in that scene is first assuming that was the intention of the scene in the first place. I'd assume if he wanted us to know they could use CoC he'd create a scenario where CoC is the most logical explanation for a scene. Them in the same pose as Marigold was a very obvious hint at Haki.

Why can't the Kuja's be like Aisa. If its just training it makes no sense why only the very best Marines can use it. Yet fodder amazons and according to you fodder pirates can simply because they've been trained for years at it. Never mind Rayleigh hints that training all your life can lead to no results. Those people must simply be training wrong. WHY CAN'T THEY BE LIKE AISA? Not why do you not want to believe it but why exactly can't they?

[Sonic Youth]

The problem is people think that after Haki was introduced, everything instinct-related (a thing often used in manga) are now haki.

I know another guy that have haki.

Spider-Man.

[Coruscation]

This is your imagination not a sign of Haki because this scene does have to be Haki related. Taken at face value it can be and most likely is nothing more than what was shown. Just because it happened a few panels later does not mean it happened later in time either.

But that's how I read it. I think it makes perfect sense as a hint of CoO with the knowledge that the Admirals are all Haki users and presumably at a very high level and how the panels are set-up. I'm not saying it has to be in case you've failed to notice, so stop pretending like I am so you can take some sort of pretended high ground.

WHY CAN'T THEY BE LIKE AISA?

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T… oh, fuck it, you don't seem to be listening anyway, and you're still for some reason pretending that I've said "can't" instead of simply explaining why I don't think that it's the case.

Besides which there's actually no precedent of CoA being unlocked from birth anyway. Only CoO which Marquerite and the rest didn't show.

[AlucarDraculA]

But, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't only the Kuja who went on the ship have haki? If so then that makes more sense than the whole island having it.

[Coruscation]

Nope, it was everyone, or just about anyway. Marquerite explained that "The arrows are infused with "Ambition"! Of course they're powerful!" and all of Luffy's capturers were shooting arrows with that power.

[flandrian15]

no, the whole island has it and know about it. Margarite wasn't on the Kuja pirate ship to begin with and she shot Haki imbedded arrows at Luffy.

EDIT: seems I was to late

[Jacoobus]

@Ryuksgelus:

Why? There is no precedent to CoC being hinted at like that. Luffy v. Mihawk is he vaguest hint of Haki as it may just be weird writing on Oda's part. With the exception of Mihawk v. Luffy all examples of Haki in the war were very blatant. Anybody who remembered Aisa from hundreds of chapters ago was correct to make that comparison.

This isn't true at all and if you think it is you probably weren't paying enough attention during the war. First, the matter was in regards to CoO not CoC. And Luffy's apparent use of it against Mihawk was clearly displayed in a small but telling panel. There are other occasions though where the use of CoO, or the inability to use it, affected the war greatly but were hinted at in a more subtle manner. Luffy vs Mihawk and later with Coby are the only two instances where Oda makes it overtly clear that CoO is being used, but there are clearly other occasions where it comes up without being as explicitly laid out.

WB of course was unable to use CoO in order to evade Squardo, this was pretty much confirmed at by a couple of Marco's lines and the flashback where he fends off Ace in his sleep, but there's no direct reference to haki. There is of also course Aokiji's use of CoO in order to dodge WB's haki spear. While WB's use of CoA is clearly commented upon by his crew, Oda leaves it up to readers to see that Aokiji making a hole in his body in order to divert the blow is only possible with the help of CoO. Another clear but subtle reference to CoO is of course the arrival of WB's fleet and the marine's reaction, which you seem to have "reasoned" can be attributed to a highly developed sense of hearing rather than CoO haki…

@Ryuksgelus:

sensed or were simply alarmed that something was coming from the Bay? This is your imagination not a sign of Haki because this scene does have to be Haki related. Taken at face value it can be and most likely is nothing more than what was shown. Just because it happened a few panels later does not mean it happened later in time either. They were alarmed because they heard something.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-17409-14/one-piece/chapter-551.html

Oda clearly showed serveral of the highest level, most experienced marines notice where WB was going to pop out from a few seconds before it happens. The Admirals are all clearly aware of the approaching threat, Garp and Tsuru both comment like they know exactly what's about to happen, the regular marines have no idea where WB is coming from, and Sengoku clearly knows he's outmanuvered before the ships pop out.

It has already been stated that all Marines above VA are capeable of using haki. But when Oda draws a lineup of what are most likely the top 5 haki users in the marines appearing to sense where WB is coming from a few seconds before it happens you assume they all just have better hearing than the rest of the marines?

Although I can understand why you might read it that way because of the panel with Akainu's ear and the way the bubbles appear to catch the Admiral's attention. What you seem to forget is that CoO is a power that's about being attuned to the presence of other beings, and has been associated with hearing since being introduced at Skypia. Despite the fact that it also allows the user to forsee things a few seconds in advance, Oda doesn't have to show a vision every time to imply that someone who we already know is capeable of it is using CoO. I would say that the main reason he bothered spelling it out for Luffy and then Coby is because they both were using CoO for the first time.

@Ryuksgelus:

You ever heard of Occam's Razor at all? Most of your argument is assumption on top of assumption to defend your assumption. All that does is open up more and more opportunities for you to be proven wrong, not improve your case. Asking how would Oda portray CoC in that scene is first assuming that was the intention of the scene in the first place. I'd assume if he wanted us to know they could use CoC he'd create a scenario where CoC is the most logical explanation for a scene.

Umm …once again, this has nothing to do with CoC. Oda chose to portray Akainu and a few others sensing WB's approach by giving us a small panel of his ear and a couple comments. So you then jumped to the conclusion that Oda is trying to tell us how good Akainu's hearing is. Which isn't entirely wrong, but in the process you neglected the fact that CoO has always been strongly affiliated with hearing since it was first introduced as mantra.

The idea that the admirals, along with Garp, Tsuru, and Sengoku just have better hearing than everyone else on the battlefield is ridiculous. Especially in the case of the last three, who should all have started losing some of their hearing already.

@Ryuksgelus:

Why can't the Kuja's be like Aisa. If its just training it makes no sense why only the very best Marines can use it? Yet fodder amazons and according to you fodder pirates can as well simply because they've been trained for years at it. Never mind Rayleigh hints that training all your life can lead to no results. Those people must simply be training wrong.

How does this make sense? Despite the fact that all the Amazon's can use haki, many of them aren't much better than marine fodder. If they were all child genius' like Aisa I'd imagine a few would grow up to be a little stronger. Oda has made it clear that Amazon Lily's culture is based on becoming stronger. One of the key points Oda likes to make about true strength is that it must be aquired through struggle. The idea of an island with a culture all about the beauty of strength ignoring such a basic principle doesn't work.

It has already been clearly stated that anyone has the ability to awaken CoO and CoA with the right training. So why assume AL is full of babies who can immediately use haki? With respect to why the Navy doesn't have more haki users, I would say that it's probably much easier to get proper training on AL than in the marines. You are comparing a small country to a huge global organization after all. Not every marine is lucky enough to be taken under the wing of someone like Garp. Although I'd imagine that haki on the level of Kuja warriors isn't that uncommon among the marines stationed at hq and in the new world. It's also probable that the Marines focus on just physical power during the initial stages of training, whereas the Kuja focus almost entirely on Haki from the outset since their brute strength will generally not have as much room for growth.

[Gladiator777]

The admirals haven't used their real Strength on the War, Just look at How thing went :

Vice admirals Vs NW captains
Marines Soldier Vs NW And WB pirates (excluding captains and Commanders)
WB Commanders Vs Shichibukai and a few Clashes with Admirals
WB Vs Admirals, and it was never 3 on 1.

So What the hell were the admirals, Garp and Sengoku doing in the whole War ? the admirals are Haki, Logia DF and Rokushki users, yet they were just walking around.

so no need to argue about the Marines noticing BB, they weren't serious at all, oda Made it look like so with some Blood and Serious face.

[RPG KING]

does inazuma have haki. with his scisors he can cut down people already but with haki I think he colud be a bigger threat.

[Cyborg_Franky]

@Gladiator777:

The admirals haven't used their real Strength on the War, Just look at How thing went :

Vice admirals Vs NW captains
Marines Soldier Vs NW And WB pirates (excluding captains and Commanders)
WB Commanders Vs Shichibukai and a few Clashes with Admirals
WB Vs Admirals, and it was never 3 on 1.

So What the hell were the admirals, Garp and Sengoku doing in the whole War ? the admirals are Haki, Logia DF and Rokushki users, yet they were just walking around.

so no need to argue about the Marines noticing BB, they weren't serious at all, oda Made it look like so with some Blood and Serious face.

and we also have no idea when the BB crew showed up it could have been only min before they were discoverd

[WarshipArc]

@RPG:

does inazuma have haki. with his scisors he can cut down people already but with haki I think he colud be a bigger threat.

I always assumed the ability to cut anything was just a part of his powers, like how Kuma could push Luffys pain out of his body.

[Just_Gabe]

@Sonic:

The problem is people think that after Haki was introduced, everything instinct-related (a thing often used in manga) are now haki.

I know another guy that have haki.

Spider-Man.
http://www.ego.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/spider-sense.jpeg

So true. It's so ridiculous how people want to relate EVERYTHING with Haki (twitching ears? seriously?).

"ei gais! choppa just piss'd his pants before the bad gai attaked him! he wasn't afraid! his piss screams CoO!"

[Coruscation]

It's so ridiculous how people want to relate EVERYTHING with Haki (twitching ears? seriously?).

Do read Jacoobus' elaboration on this if you haven't already, he explained it a million times better than my inarticulate and scrambled posts did. CoO has actually been associated with hearing and 'voices' since its very introduction.

[igetownd]

This post is deleted!

[Gladiator777]

@Coruscation:

Do read Jacoobus' elaboration on this if you haven't already, he explained it a million times better than my inarticulate and scrambled posts did. CoO has actually been associated with hearing and 'voices' since its very introduction.

SO blind People Are haki Users too ? since Their Sens of Hearing is greater than normal people's.
Dude, The Admirals are F*** Admirals, Their Body is well trained !
Akainu ear twitched ? so what ! isn't that why he is called the red "Dog" ?

as i said, in the War, Oda did his best to make The WB Pirates and alliance on Par with marines and Shichibukai.
How come akainu used CoO to Notice the Moby dick coming out of from the Sea and Not using it to notice Slow WB (with all my respect to old man) Coming right behind him ?

[Coruscation]

Maybe you should read Jacoobus' post, too, instead of making silly strawmen.

[blendingur69]

@Jacoobus:

This isn't true at all and if you think it is you probably weren't paying enough attention during the war. First, the matter was in regards to CoO not CoC. And Luffy's apparent use of it against Mihawk was clearly displayed in a small but telling panel. There are other occasions though where the use of CoO, or the inability to use it, affected the war greatly but were hinted at in a more subtle manner. Luffy vs Mihawk and later with Coby are the only two instances where Oda makes it overtly clear that CoO is being used, but there are clearly other occasions where it comes up without being as explicitly laid out.

WB of course was unable to use CoO in order to evade Squardo, this was pretty much confirmed at by a couple of Marco's lines and the flashback where he fends off Ace in his sleep, but there's no direct reference to haki. There is of also course Aokiji's use of CoO in order to dodge WB's haki spear. While WB's use of CoA is clearly commented upon by his crew, Oda leaves it up to readers to see that Aokiji making a hole in his body in order to divert the blow is only possible with the help of CoO. Another clear but subtle reference to CoO is of course the arrival of WB's fleet and the marine's reaction, which you seem to have "reasoned" can be attributed to a highly developed sense of hearing rather than CoO haki…

http://www.mangareader.net/103-17409-14/one-piece/chapter-551.html

Oda clearly showed serveral of the highest level, most experienced marines notice where WB was going to pop out from a few seconds before it happens. The Admirals are all clearly aware of the approaching threat, Garp and Tsuru both comment like they know exactly what's about to happen, the regular marines have no idea where WB is coming from, and Sengoku clearly knows he's outmanuvered before the ships pop out.

It has already been stated that all Marines above VA are capeable of using haki. But when Oda draws a lineup of what are most likely the top 5 haki users in the marines appearing to sense where WB is coming from a few seconds before it happens you assume they all just have better hearing than the rest of the marines?

Although I can understand why you might read it that way because of the panel with Akainu's ear and the way the bubbles appear to catch the Admiral's attention. What you seem to forget is that CoO is a power that's about being attuned to the presence of other beings, and has been associated with hearing since being introduced at Skypia. Despite the fact that it also allows the user to forsee things a few seconds in advance, Oda doesn't have to show a vision every time to imply that someone who we already know is capeable of it is using CoO. I would say that the main reason he bothered spelling it out for Luffy and then Coby is because they both were using CoO for the first time.

Umm …once again, this has nothing to do with CoC. Oda chose to portray Akainu and a few others sensing WB's approach by giving us a small panel of his ear and a couple comments. So you then jumped to the conclusion that Oda is trying to tell us how good Akainu's hearing is. Which isn't entirely wrong, but in the process you neglected the fact that CoO has always been strongly affiliated with hearing since it was first introduced as mantra.

The idea that the admirals, along with Garp, Tsuru, and Sengoku just have better hearing than everyone else on the battlefield is ridiculous. Especially in the case of the last three, who should all have started losing some of their hearing already.

How does this make sense? Despite the fact that all the Amazon's can use haki, many of them aren't much better than marine fodder. If they were all child genius' like Aisa I'd imagine a few would grow up to be a little stronger. Oda has made it clear that Amazon Lily's culture is based on becoming stronger. One of the key points Oda likes to make about true strength is that it must be aquired through struggle. The idea of an island with a culture all about the beauty of strength ignoring such a basic principle doesn't work.

It has already been clearly stated that anyone has the ability to awaken CoO and CoA with the right training. So why assume AL is full of babies who can immediately use haki? With respect to why the Navy doesn't have more haki users, I would say that it's probably much easier to get proper training on AL than in the marines. You are comparing a small country to a huge global organization after all. Not every marine is lucky enough to be taken under the wing of someone like Garp. Although I'd imagine that haki on the level of Kuja warriors isn't that uncommon among the marines stationed at hq and in the new world. It's also probable that the Marines focus on just physical power during the initial stages of training, whereas the Kuja focus almost entirely on Haki from the outset since their brute strength will generally not have as much room for growth.

Yeah, I gotta applaud how well written this is, I kinda agree with everything :ninja:

[Ryuksgelus]

@Coruscation:

But that's how I read it. I think it makes perfect sense as a hint of CoO with the knowledge that the Admirals are all Haki users and presumably at a very high level and how the panels are set-up. I'm not saying it has to be in case you've failed to notice, so stop pretending like I am so you can take some sort of pretended high ground.

So the very fist time, long before we had any indication the Admirals knew Haki at all you saw an ear twitch and thought it must be Haki?

BECAUSE IT DOESN'T… oh, fuck it, you don't seem to be listening anyway, and you're still for some reason pretending that I've said "can't" instead of simply explaining why I don't think that it's the case.

Besides which there's actually no precedent of CoA being unlocked from birth anyway. Only CoO which Marquerite and the rest didn't show.

I know exactly what you're saying as I have repeatedly said I don't care why you don't like the idea. No apparently you're not following your own argument. You're using the Kuja's as an example to show that with good enough training even fodder characters can learn Haki and thus it shouldn't be that rare.

The hole in that theory is that you're using a particular unique case to base your view on the rest of the OP world without providing factual reasoning why they aren't special. The Aisa comparison was not used to say it was unlocked in them since birth. Just putting it out there that for some reason a form of Haki was in fact "God gifted"(your words) and not brought about by training. Even Coby didn't unlock it via training but a shock he received. Which could be the trauma of war, Luffy's punch, or the literal shock wave he felt when Shanks stopped Akainu.

! > This isn't true at all and if you think it is you probably weren't paying enough attention during the war. First, the matter was in regards to CoO not CoC. And Luffy's apparent use of it against Mihawk was clearly displayed in a small but telling panel. There are other occasions though where the use of CoO, or the inability to use it, affected the war greatly but were hinted at in a more subtle manner. Luffy vs Mihawk and later with Coby are the only two instances where Oda makes it overtly clear that CoO is being used, but there are clearly other occasions where it comes up without being as explicitly laid out.
@Jacoobus

! > This isn't true at all and if you think it is you probably weren't paying enough attention during the war. First, the matter was in regards to CoO not CoC. And Luffy's apparent use of it against Mihawk was clearly displayed in a small but telling panel. There are other occasions though where the use of CoO, or the inability to use it, affected the war greatly but were hinted at in a more subtle manner. Luffy vs Mihawk and later with Coby are the only two instances where Oda makes it overtly clear that CoO is being used, but there are clearly other occasions where it comes up without being as explicitly laid out.

WB of course was unable to use CoO in order to evade Squardo, this was pretty much confirmed at by a couple of Marco's lines and the flashback where he fends off Ace in his sleep, but there's no direct reference to haki. There is of also course Aokiji's use of CoO in order to dodge WB's haki spear. While WB's use of CoA is clearly commented upon by his crew, Oda leaves it up to readers to see that Aokiji making a hole in his body in order to divert the blow is only possible with the help of CoO. Another clear but subtle reference to CoO is of course the arrival of WB's fleet and the marine's reaction, which you seem to have "reasoned" can be attributed to a highly developed sense of hearing rather than CoO haki…

You're on drugs. While I agree Mihawk vs Luffy makes sense to be CoO Haki that is only because it makes more sense than Oda oddly deciding to highlight Luffy using common sense.

Every thing else you're listing as subtle examples of Haki is complete nonsense. You're trying to read in between the lines to list details that aren't there. Those scenes can all very easily be nothing more than what was shown to us. Aokiji saw WB pointing his Bisento in his direction and took defensive measures. There is no reason that wasn't simple dodging unless you can provide one. You can't.

Occam's razor dictates that when there are two opposing views the simpler one is the best one to go with. Haki use was explicit so there would be little debate when it was used. Its actually quite insulting for you to insinuate that all those who didn't read those scenes as hints of Haki are lacking reading comprehension. You actually used WB bitch slapping Ace as an example? So now natural awareness is Haki too?

! > Oda clearly showed serveral of the highest level, most experienced marines notice where WB was going to pop out from a few seconds before it happens. The Admirals are all clearly aware of the approaching threat, Garp and Tsuru both comment like they know exactly what's about to happen, the regular marines have no idea where WB is coming from, and Sengoku clearly knows he's outmanuvered before the ships pop out. Like you said Highest level. Most experienced. You're attributing their awearness of the situation to a special ability? NW captains are in the back so where is the most logical place appear? Just because we didn't see the ships pop up till the end of the page doesn't mean the admirals noticed before it started coming up. Everybody could have noticed simultaneously and the panels were arranged for build up. Emphasis on the ear to let us know Akainu does have good hearing which explains how he knew where Jinbei and Luffy were later while underground. Also to show he wasn't looking but just listening and that was enough to know that was going on. This post is some nicely articulated stupidity.

! > It has already been stated that all Marines above VA are capeable of using haki. But when Oda draws a lineup of what are most likely the top 5 haki users in the marines appearing to sense where WB is coming from a few seconds before it happens you assume they all just have better hearing than the rest of the marines? We learned they had Haki at the very end of the war. You're retrospectively trying to apply Haki to scenes that when first read would give no indication of it.

! > The idea that the admirals, along with Garp, Tsuru, and Sengoku just have better hearing than everyone else on the battlefield is ridiculous. Especially in the case of the last three, who should all have started losing some of their hearing already. Now you've crossed into idiot territory. Nobody said shit about better hearing and that last line was plain dumb when these are super humans. So now old people use Haki to make up for lost hearing?

! How does this make sense? Despite the fact that all the Amazon's can use haki, many of them aren't much better than marine fodder. If they were all child genius' like Aisa I'd imagine a few would grow up to be a little stronger. Oda has made it clear that Amazon Lily's culture is based on becoming stronger. One of the key points Oda likes to make about true strength is that it must be aquired through struggle. The idea of an island with a culture all about the beauty of strength ignoring such a basic principle doesn't work.What are you talking about? Amazons Ignoring what? This has nothing to do with my post. My point is that there is no reason Amazons can't be naturally gifted at unlocking Haki. Which does seem like something you unlock, not something that just appears through natural progression of strength. Apparently there is a reason only the most gifted marines or special cases like Coby know Haki. When its such a select few out of millions of soldiers that tells me that is due to something a bit more significant than AL having the far better training regiment.

It has already been clearly stated that anyone has the ability to awaken CoO and CoA with the right training. So why assume AL is full of babies who can immediately use haki? With respect to why the Navy doesn't have more haki users, I would say that it's probably much easier to get proper training on AL than in the marines. You are comparing a small country to a huge global organization after all. Not every marine is lucky enough to be taken under the wing of someone like Garp. Although I'd imagine that haki on the level of Kuja warriors isn't that uncommon among the marines stationed at hq and in the new world. It's also probable that the Marines focus on just physical power during the initial stages of training, whereas the Kuja focus almost entirely on Haki from the outset since their brute strength will generally not have as much room for growth.

You and Coruscation are the ones who keep saying that. I'm just saying it may be easier for them to develop, Training+innate ability not just birth. What was the reason for Enel and the Priests to have Mantra?

Not talking every marine I'm talking just more than the top two dozen or so. If its simply a matter of training then at least some Rear Admirals or even Commodores should have Haki. Don't assume maybe they do because just going with what we know it seems special to VA's and particular cases.

Baseless. Why do you assume that because of Marguerite?

Now you're argument has come down to assumptions on why its so rare in the marines. The line both of you keep on trying to downplay is Rayleigh stating you can train your entire life and never awaken Haki. The only counter point to that is that those people must be doing it wrong.

Trying your best not to acknowledge the possibility that Rayleigh meant even talented people receiving the proper training for years. Vice Admirals being some of the few confirmed cases outside of AL should be an indication of its difficulty to master.

[Jacoobus]

@Ryuksgelus:

So the very fist time, long before we had any indication the Admirals knew Haki at all you saw an ear twitch and thought it must be Haki?

Are you serious? No indication? We had already seen both Garp AND Sentomau use haki, plus Enel made it clear that CoO can be used by logias. These are the top three Marines, if you didn't consider it at least a likelihood that they had haki before the war started then you're pretty slow. I suppose you're the type who can't make a logical inference without having everything clearly spelled out for you ahead of time. Making it apparent that I wasted any effort I put into trying to get through to you in my last post. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not going to spend any more time trying to talk sense to a brick wall. Have a nice day.

[Md-Martin]

I'm pretty sure that it was just hearing, not CoO. From what we had seen at that point, Oda would have shown a shaded panel showing the ship's rising, and the Admirals said something.

[blendingur69]

@Jacoobus:

Are you serious? No indication? We had already seen both Garp AND Sentomau use haki, plus Enel made it clear that CoO can be used by logias. These are the top three Marines, if you didn't consider it at least a likelihood that they had haki before the war started then you're pretty slow. I suppose you're the type who can't make a logical inference without having everything clearly spelled out for you ahead of time. Making it apparent that I wasted any effort I put into trying to get through to you in my last post. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not going to spend any more time trying to talk sense to a brick wall. Have a nice day.

I completely agree with this guy, man he can write :ninja:

[Ryuksgelus]

@Jacoobus:

Are you serious? No indication? We had already seen both Garp AND Sentomau use haki, plus Enel made it clear that CoO can be used by logias. These are the top three Marines, if you didn't consider it at least a likelihood that they had haki before the war started then you're pretty slow. I suppose you're the type who can't make a logical inference without having everything clearly spelled out for you ahead of time. Making it apparent that I wasted any effort I put into trying to get through to you in my last post. I can't speak for anyone else but I'm not going to spend any more time trying to talk sense to a brick wall. Have a nice day.

Like I said you're an idiot. Nobody including you saw an ear twitching and assumed it must be Haki, all in retrospect. Only people grasping at straws thought WB bitch slapping Ace in his sleep had to be Haki. By your logic Don used Haki to dodge Oar's fist even though he clearly saw it coming since that is how Aokiji evaded WB's blow.

Most people were pretty hesitant to claim anything was Haki back then. Haki was seen as a particular skill of Garp, Sentoumaru, and Enel. Why would we infer other characters have Haki when we had so little knowledge of it back then because they had it? Anybody with a brain knew Rayleigh used Haki to stop Kizaru because it was the most logical conclusion. You're examples have simpler explanation than Haki.

Yes because I find your points moronic that means I can't infer things not spelt out even though I do it all the time with a decent amount of accuracy. What you're doing it not inferring but pulling details out of thin air.

[Gladiator777]

Jacoobus@

Are you hit in the head ? How could you assume that Akainu Used CoO to sense The WB pirates coming Just Cause he twitched his ear ?
In that case, the Marines Fodder can also use CoO since Heard the Sound Bubles caused by the Coated ships as well :

!

[Wisshard]

@Ryuksgelus:

Nobody including [Jacoobus] saw an ear twitching and assumed it must be Haki, all in retrospect.

That is not a very good argument. What does it matter if nobody thought it was Haki back then, or in any of the other instances that we now can infer, in retrospect, that Haki was probably used? It's called foreshadowing; establishing the practise of Haki through subtle hints, even though we readers knew little and less of the concept at that point.

I'm pretty sure that there were very few (if any) who presumed that Shanks used CoC to scare of the seaking with a glare when they first read the opening chapter of One Piece. Yet looking back now, it's painfully obvious that he did.

[Jacoobus]

@Ryuksgelus:

Like I said you're an idiot. Nobody including you saw an ear twitching and assumed it must be Haki, all in retrospect. Only people grasping at straws thought WB bitch slapping Ace in his sleep had to be Haki. By your logic Don used Haki to dodge Oar's fist even though he clearly saw it coming since that is how Aokiji evaded WB's blow.

I agree that no one saw that page and was immediately convinced that the Admirals were using CoO, but if you looked at the page without considering it as a likely possibility then you didn't do your due diligence as a reader.

WB sensing Ace in his sleep clearly WAS CoO, If you still don't get that then I'm not sure there's any help for you. Marco made clear reference to how WB normally would never be surprised by a blow from an ally. We know WB was one of the top haki users we've been introduced to because of his reputation. Despite that he hardly uses haki at all in the war and Marco keeps talking about how age and illness are catching up to him. If you can't connect those dots there's no saving you.

As far as Don using CoO against Oars I would be lying if I didn't admit to considering it as a possibility initially. I still think there's a slight chance it was used, but as you said there's really no reason to think it was neccisary in that scenario so I wouldn't consider it at all likely.

@Ryuksgelus:

Most people were pretty hesitant to claim anything was Haki back then. Haki was seen as a particular skill of Garp, Sentoumaru, and Enel. Why would we infer other characters have Haki when we had so little knowledge of it back then because they had it? Anybody with a brain knew Rayleigh used Haki to stop Kizaru because it was the most logical conclusion. You're examples have simpler explanation than Haki.

People were hesitant to make definite claims about haki, but those of us who were paying attention had a decent idea of what probably was or wasn't haki. In addition to showing it used in all three forms by Garp, Sentomaru, Enel, and Shanks, Oda also wrote an entire mini-arc to introduce the concept officially prior to the war. It was clearly apparent after AL that this was something he had been slowly integrating into the story since Skypia. Anyone with half a brain made the connection between the Boa Sisters and previous examples of haki. Once it was made clear that the story was heading towards Marineford, it became painfully obvious that all the haki foreshadowing was leading up to the war. If you didn't consider it at least probable that the Admirals used haki by this point then you're not too sharp.

Simpler explanation like what? Six people who all have a special ability to sense the presence of others all notice where WB is coming from a few seconds before he arrives. Despite the fact that they're at the rear of the battle formation, and that the marines who are closer can't make out where WB is coming from, none of them bother using their special sensing ability and instead can just hear exactly where he's coming from.

You don't seem to understand that CoO is a very internal process. Just because Oda doesn't waste panel space drawing up a vision of the future every time someone uses it to dodge a blow or sense someone coming that doesn't mean it isn't being used. Look at this page for example…

http://www.mangareader.net/103-58198-12/one-piece/chapter-601.html

So what do you think? Is Luffy all of a sudden faster than the Pacifista's laser beam since he called it slow? Or is it maybe because he can see the beam coming and predict its trajectory with CoO? What sounds more logical?

@Ryuksgelus:

Yes because I find your points moronic that means I can't infer things not spelt out even though I do it all the time with a decent amount of accuracy. What you're doing it not inferring but pulling details out of thin air.

I hope English is not your first language.

@Gladiator777:

Jacoobus@

Are you hit in the head ? How could you assume that Akainu Used CoO to sense The WB pirates coming Just Cause he twitched his ear ?
In that case, the Marines Fodder can also use CoO since Heard the Sound Bubles caused by the Coated ships as well :

! [qimg]http://9.p.s.mfcdn.net/store/manga/106/56-551.0/compressed/sone_piece_551_binktopia_v2.15.jpg[/qimg]

Dude look at that scan again. There are six people who notice WB's approach and immediately appear to know where he's coming from. All three Admirals, Garp, Tsuru, and Sengoku. Do you need Oda to draw out all of their ears twitching in order to convey that?

The regular marines hear WB coming but can't make out where it's coming from despite the fact that they're much closer to the water than anyone I just mentioned. We know that all six of the people who sense WB are experienced haki users. Is it more likely that they used CoO to sense WB's approach, or that they all have better hearing than any of the marines who were on the front lines?

[Zkaiser]

What is the point in figuring what was haki and what wasn't?

[AlucarDraculA]

@Zkaiser:

What is the point in figuring what was haki and what wasn't?

If you do you win!!!!!!!!!!

[Sonic Youth]

Winning!

…

:sad:

[Ryuksgelus]

@Zkaiser:

What is the point in figuring what was haki and what wasn't?

He's trying to say there were extremely subtle examples of Haki that he and other diligent readers noticed. Those only claiming Haki when it was made painfully obvious aren't reading deeply enough. We should scrutinize every single scene that can possibly have Haki as an explanation.

Point of entire discussion is its rarity. Which should be fine in the Haki discussion thread.

[alucar_D]

**Before i tell what i think about this thing, i want to say a few words that i thought when reading these latest pages.
AHEM.

This whole Haki-discussion has the same problem as every discussion about thing that we haven't seen enough or which is not fully revealed. Same with blackbeard's body, Doflamingo's power etc.

When there are obvious points when haki is used- everyone notices those points, and tells about them in the forums.

People discuss about that stuff a while, and when those obviously clear things have been discussed and discussed and discussed, people stop talking about them.

BUT. some time later, someone wants to rise conversation about haki again, but what to do when all obvious points are discussed throughoutly?

WELL, this person reads every chapter again and again, and brings up every single little clue that MAY refer to Haki. And tells to others about it like "WOw, look what i found!"
And the others are like "Aw, shit come on. thats nothing like it."

And voilâ, endless argumentation-shitstorm is ready.

So, chill out guys. Your conversation isn't going anywhere anymore, now you are just trying to prove your own ways only by insulting each other.**

BUT. Now to my points.

Some Facts we know:
All marines above Vice Admiral-rank can use haki. So obviously admirals also have a knowledge to use it. This is 100% sure.

Admiral's used Haki while negating WB's quake. It is almost sure, because rayleigh used his CoA to repel elephant's attack similiar way and told us that it was haki. both scenes seen here, and i think that Rayleigh's explain speaks by itself.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-13/one-piece/chapter-597.html
here rayleigh tells about CoA haki

http://www.mangareader.net/103-40169-10/one-piece/chapter-564.html
here admirals use obviously same technique.

Other fact that is sure is that only a few of WB's crew knew/could use haki. I explained my point about this few pages ago in this thread.

Also, when Luffy dodges Pacifistas laser, it is obvious that he uses CoO, because of the same reason as Admirals used haki in platform: it is clearly shown by Rayleigh.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-58198-12/one-piece/chapter-601.html
Here luffy dodges laser

http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-12/one-piece/chapter-597.html
Here Rayleigh tells about CoO

Those are very similiar, so it is made clear to us that luffy without a doubt dodges with haki.

I personally did not believe that Akainu's ear twich in Marinford was haki. Simply, because oda foreshadowed his ear as the sign of hearing. If it would have been haki, it would have been shown more clearly. That's what i absolutely thought.
BUT. The way Rayleigh told about CoO would point to the fact that admirals, Tsuru and Garp used haki in that scene. "Enemies in locations invisible to naked eye can be discerned. Their numbers.. And even what they will do in the next moment, can all be gleaned." And if you look that page, it is true that Garp and Tsuru clearly knew what was the factor of the sound, while fodder marines just didn't have any clue.

http://www.mangareader.net/103-17409-14/one-piece/chapter-551.html
Here is this infamous page.

So, the admirals most likely used haki as well, but the more interesting point was that more obvious haki users in that page were actually Tsuru and Garp, as they said it out loud.

On a side note, Never think the way how things look in OP world or think like some OP character would think; always try to think as artist thinks.
That's why im not still completely sure about the scene because he still CLEARLY FORESHADOWED EAR TWICH AS A SIGN OF HEARING.
But I AM sure that we aren't going to have clear answer to that scene. It would be quite strange for Oda to draw a flashback which shows that "by the way, Akainus ear twiched in this panel chapters ago, and now i want to confirm that it was haki, lol."

[blendingur69]

@alucar_D:

On a side note, Never think the way how things look in OP world or think like some OP character would think; always try to think as artist thinks.
That's why im not still completely sure about the scene because he still CLEARLY FORESHADOWED EAR TWICH AS A SIGN OF HEARING.

Yeah, I agree with almost everything you said the only thing that I just have to add in is this little thing that has allready been said before. Don't get me wrong I really respect how well written it is and stuff… anyway... Haki or mantra has allways been shown as hearing, or hearing voices in your head like this: http://www.mangareader.net/103-49210-6/one-piece/chapter-579.html … or this: http://www.mangareader.net/103-2358-2/one-piece/chapter-251.html … I don't know how you like to look at these things in comparison to the discussed subject but a foreshadowed ear doesn't really tell me that I'm wrong in believing that it was haki(mantra)!
Except of course, if you can PROVE me wrong!

Edit I'm not neccicerilly talking to Alucar.:ninja:

[Jacoobus]

@Ryuksgelus:

He's trying to say there were extremely subtle examples of Haki that he and other diligent readers noticed. Those only claiming Haki when it was made painfully obvious aren't reading deeply enough. We should scrutinize every single scene that can possibly have Haki as an explanation.

Point of entire discussion is its rarity. Which should be fine in the Haki discussion thread.

Don't try to twist my words. Just because I pointed out a few examples of CoO that aren't overtly obvious doesn't mean to imply that every page of the war is laden with hidden haki use. I just think Oda doesn't go out of his way to make it super obvious every single time someone uses haki, especially with CoO which ultimately has almost no measurable effect outside of a person's head.

@Zkaiser:

What is the point in figuring what was haki and what wasn't?

The war was the first part of the story with haki fully integrated into the plot. How Oda chose to portray the different kinds of haki during the war sets a precident for how it will appear in the future.

[igetownd]

I felt that the whole investigative nature of this thread has transformed from a desire for understanding, to a struggle for the technically correct, to a scavenger hunt for undesirable attention-seeking misfits.

But that is an old naive notion, for this thread is good for the newbies who have only tasted this manga for the past month, or even a week, and desire to know and savor the flood of new flavors. Hopefully not that of ink and paper.

[Sonic Youth]

We all know Doflamingos power is not strings but invisible fairies controlling peoples movements and using long invisible swords.

[DooMinator]

@Sonic:

using long invisible swords.

Nah, it's more some kind of wire saw…