What about the blows dealt by Marco and Vista?
They would not have been fatal even if red-dick was not logia. In OP, you can easily survive beeing stabbed. If this was not fatal, than the little scratches from Vista and Marco wouldn't be as well.
General 'Haki' Discussion
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They would not have been fatal even if red-dick was not logia. In OP, you can easily survive beeing stabbed. If this was not fatal, than the little scratches from Vista and Marco wouldn't be as well.
Little scratches ? Seriously… http://www.mangareader.net/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.html
I think Vista actually killed him but Akainu has more than one life. At least three, because Whitebeard killed him too.
And we don't really see where Luffy got hurt, here -
Little scratches ? Seriously…
Sarkasm isn't your best friend, is it?
@Castelmore:And we don't really see where Luffy got hurt, here
He's just stabbed right through his stomach, what it could it be? And you know the shape of Crocos arm, so it's obvious a serious injury…
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Their haki isn't strong enough to hurt him I'd say.
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Akainu quite clearly managed to not get his real body hit by Marco & Vista's blows somehow. Whether it was by way of his own Haki reinforcement in some way that hasn't yet been explained to us, or just mastery of his Logia fruit… he certainly did not "tank" getting his neck cut like that. He retained his "intangibility" and they ended up hitting only magma, that's why he wasn't harmed.
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@Sonic:
Their haki isn't strong enough to hurt him I'd say.
WB was not able to do more damage, so it should not be a question of "strong enough Haki". In OP, some people simply can take more damage than others…
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Sarkasm isn't your best friend, is it?
Not it's poorly used.
He's just stabbed right through his stomach, what it could it be? And you know the shape of Crocos arm, so it's obvious a serious injury…
Serious injury. As well as the blow dealt by Vista was goddamn serious. But no one can say which is worst. Oh yeah, I could. Someone without a fruit would have DIED from what Vista did to Akainu, nothing would have saved him. Whereas we can suppose the blow dealt by Crocodile was not 100% lethal. In fact, Luffy survived.
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It's pretty wierd, but everytime guys try to hurt Logias with weapons(with haki) they fail, but when they use their fists and whatnot they always make it.
Who exactly is Mumbo?
It's OFFICIAL, UsoppXNami 4ever.
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Well, Kizaru would've been dead as a doornail on Rayleigh's sword had he aborted his light-travel an inch slower. So it's obviously entirely possible. But maybe it is somehow harder to channel enough Haki to completely solidify a powerful Logia user through a weapon, I dunno.
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Akainu quite clearly managed to not get his real body hit by Marco & Vista's blows somehow. Whether it was by way of his own Haki reinforcement in some way that hasn't yet been explained to us, or just mastery of his Logia fruit… he certainly did not "tank" getting his neck cut like that. He retained his "intangibility" and they ended up hitting only magma, that's why he wasn't harmed.
Agreed. I wouldn't be surprised if he had some magma armor or something similar. Something like wax armor of Mr.3 to protect his real body from Haki users
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Don't think it's quite like that. They did slice up his body, but failed to hit his real body. It was basically as if they weren't using Haki in the first place, as far as I can tell. So Akainu did… something to essentially stop their Haki from working.
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He might have used magma armor on his body to reduce the damage of the attacks or he can heal his body with magma.
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That wouldn't have really helped though. His neck literally gets sliced up, the attack goes right through it. "Armor" wouldn't have helped him in that instance.
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The point is that there is a lot about haki, and d/f users for that matter, particularly logias, that we don't know yet, despite the explanation that Ray gave Luffy (and us) about haki when the training started.
If I had to guess now, I'd say that there is some sort of strength or technique that counters or resists or defends against the effects of haki for d/f users that only advanced skilled folks have, and they have it only after training extensively. It makes sense, because why have a hax power like a d/f, then create an even more hax power to defeat them, like haki, and not have a way to even things up again. Without a way to make the battles interesting and more evenly matched, the story is pretty boring, right? No question about who the winner would be–which is definitely not Oda-like. When the final battles happen between Luffy and whoever, there needs to be that feeling of unease, if only slightly about who the ultimate victor will be (even though we all know it will be Luffy, we need to have that suspicion that he could lose, if things went wrong, or he wasn't as cool or creative or intuitive in battle as he is, etc–thus confirming why we liked him all along as the main character. That is good writing, IMHO.)
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When did you all agree that haki is a form of bypassing a logias defenses and hitting the "real" body.
I dont recall reading or seeing that.
Haki does not
1. Negate DF powers
2. Hit and invisible "real" body1. Consider the effectiveness of black beards power. How suprised ace was he couldn't use his fire anymore. Ace having served whitebeard for many years I am sure was aware of hakis uses and was completely surprised.
2. Again show me some evidence that suggest a df power somehow magically hides the users real body and dosent simply change the user's current bodie's geneic coumpounds to fit their powers. Hense "I'm a rubber Man". The df user is in his real body his real body IS made up of his powers.
Now, the haki vs logia thing is simple to any thoughtful thinker. Haki allows you to damage the person's element thus damaging their body.
For instance:
If a haki user took a sword and cut he head off a logia user. The logia user wouldn't die because his body is not that of a normal person. The logia user would feel the experiance of being decapitated and his elemental body would be damaged. He would still be able to regenerate like normal however.So how can a logia user be beaten you may ask? It is simple too. His elemental body can only take a certain amount of punishment. Over damage the elemental body and you beat the logia.
Then you add in will power how much hes trained his fruit and the type of logia he is using.
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Yes, I feel that could be a good explanation.
The logia users feels the pain from the haki-attack, but doesn't get sliced up. Still doesn't explain why Kizaru got cut from Rayleigh and why Aokiji started to bleed from Jozu…
I think, that in the Anime, they added some blood gushing out of Akainu when Marco and Vista sliced him (Oda approved? probably not)...
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When did you all agree that haki is a form of bypassing a logias defenses and hitting the "real" body.
I dont recall reading or seeing that.
Haki does not
1. Negate DF powers
2. Hit and invisible "real" body.Oh I don't know when Oda said so maybe?
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When did you all agree that haki is a form of bypassing a logias defenses and hitting the "real" body.
I dont recall reading or seeing that.
Haki does not
1. Negate DF powers
2. Hit and invisible "real" bodyI don't recall everyone saying they agreed that haki allowed someone to hit the invisible "real" body behind the elemental body of a d/f user. At least I know I didn't. I have a different theory about how logia powers work, though yours (below–and yes, whether you believe it to be so sound as to trump all others, it is still at this point in time a theory, not having been confirmed ascanon by Oda) is an interesting idea, too.
1. Consider the effectiveness of black beards power. How suprised ace was he couldn't use his fire anymore. Ace having served whitebeard for many years I am sure was aware of hakis uses and was completely surprised.
I'm not following this argument. This is what I recall–that the manga clearly stated that BB's power is related to his fruit, not haki, and no other fruit thus far has had a power to do such a thing to other users. That BB was a member of Ace's crew, so he knew him and knew if he had haki or not. My belief is that Ace's surprise had everything to do with ignorance about the darkness fruit, and nothing to do with his level of understanding of how haki works. So I don't understand how you are relating BB's comment to the haki discussion--can you explain more.
2. Again show me some evidence that suggest a df power somehow magically hides the users real body and dosent simply change the user's current bodie's geneic coumpounds to fit their powers. Hense "I'm a rubber Man". The df user is in his real body his real body IS made up of his powers.
I'll leave this to folks who actively support this theory. As I said, my theory is different–I tend to agree with you that logias turn into their element, like Luffy turned into rubber, but I also think they can have different stages or forms, one of which is being solid again, like Chopper having different forms. Until we get more info from Oda, we can specualte all we want--implying that folks aren't "thinking" posters (as you do below) if they have a different theory is a bit OTT, IMHO.
Now, the haki vs logia thing is simple to any thoughtful thinker. Haki allows you to damage the person's element thus damaging their body.
For instance:
If a haki user took a sword and cut he head off a logia user. The logia user wouldn't die because his body is not that of a normal person. The logia user would feel the experiance of being decapitated and his elemental body would be damaged. He would still be able to regenerate like normal however.So how can a logia user be beaten you may ask? It is simple too. His elemental body can only take a certain amount of punishment. Over damage the elemental body and you beat the logia.
Then you add in will power how much hes trained his fruit and the type of logia he is using.
It is a beutifully simple theory, but again, it is a bit hard to swallow when speaking about a logia like "light" for example. Thus far we've seen logias get hurt when their power is somehow overcome–magma beats fire, perhaps by smothering it, water beats sand by making it solid, ect. Not perfect, but understandable. Haki is as of yet still mysterious in how it works, thus the answer to these questions is an open debate. How the will of the d/f user plays into the equation is still not explained, and acting like it's simple is not really accurate--at least not at this point in time IMHO. Nice theory though!
Oh I don't know when Oda said so maybe?
[hide]
[/hide]Yes this says it can solidy the liquid bodies of logia users, not that their "real body" is hidden behind their elemental one–and important distinction, IMHO.
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If a haki user took a sword and cut he head off a logia user. The logia user wouldn't die because his body is not that of a normal person. The logia user would feel the experiance of being decapitated and his elemental body would be damaged. He would still be able to regenerate like normal however.
This is totally out of nowhere, though. It's not what the manga suggests; if you hit a Logia user with Haki, they get hurt just like any other person with a normal body. Haki DOES allow you to hit the "real body"; let me present you with Aohige's translation:
"…this Armored Haki is the only efficient power against Devil Fruit users.
Even though the Logia types intangible bodies may feel invincible, with this power you can directly contact their real body…"It's not a simple "it just allows you to attack their magma as if it were flesh" type of thing. When Rayleigh slashed Kizaru's light body, he suffered a gash and bled real blood. When Whitebeard quaked Akainu into oblivion, he was coughing up real blood and his body got hurt badly. If what you're saying is true, Logia users couldn't even receive medical treatment because they're perpetually magma/ice/light and so on and it's impossible to change back. That just doesn't make sense to me.
Unless Aohige shows up and clarifies that "real body" was a mistake, it definitely seems to be what Haki does. It's the only way it makes any sense out of hitting a rubberman and having it hurt. Now, you don't have to take it completely literally. It's not as if Luffy's rubber body isn't his real body. It's really just a way of describing it, yeah? You can put it like that and it's easy to understand. What it does exactly, probably isn't really that important; what's important is the effect of it.
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This post is deleted!
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@Sonic:
It's pretty wierd, but everytime guys try to hurt Logias with weapons(with haki) they fail, but when they use their fists and whatnot they always make it.
**This is just speculation, but perhaps it's easier to use Haki with your own body than with a weapon? I mean, with a weapon you have to also imbue the weapon with Haki which I imagine would be more difficult than imbuing yourself with Haki.
Then again, it's probably because the people whose have seen use their fists w/ Haki are just THAT strong. I mean, Whitebeard and Garp make some top-tiers look bad.**
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my theory on CoC
it is too early to tell the extent of CoC's power but in chapter 570 pg4 top left the okama king says something like "the power to fight what cannot be seen dragon" made me think of two things
1. that dragon is prob a wind log giving him the ability to not "be seen" in combination with a logias power making it very hard to dodge his attacks and making him very powerful (plus in my opinion explains all the wind and stormy weather that seems to always surround him)
and 2. that Coc could somehow nullify a DF users ability to maybe use their DF or maybe stop a logia's ability to change into their element (im going out on a limb here but i also thought of this when ben beckam was aiming at kizaru thinking of the whole #2 = Coc kind of style and in that light is faster than a bullet so even if it was CoA'd he could dodge it unless Coc was used to keep him from doing anything in the first place)
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my theory on CoC
it is too early to tell the extent of CoC's power but in chapter 570 pg4 top left the okama king says something like "the power to fight what cannot be seen dragon" made me think of two things
1. that dragon is prob a wind log giving him the ability to not "be seen" in combination with a logias power making it very hard to dodge his attacks and making him very powerful (plus in my opinion explains all the wind and stormy weather that seems to always surround him)
and 2. that Coc could somehow nullify a DF users ability to maybe use their DF or maybe stop a logia's ability to change into their element (im going out on a limb here but i also thought of this when ben beckam was aiming at kizaru thinking of the whole #2 = Coc kind of style and in that light is faster than a bullet so even if it was CoA'd he could dodge it unless Coc was used to keep him from doing anything in the first place)
I've allway's thought that dragons power was a paramecia type, I mean weather…And I still think I'm right :ninja:
My name is Dracule Mihawk!! It's too soon for you to die. Discover yourself. See the world!! And grow strong, Zoro!!! However long it may take… I shall await you at the top. Strive with your whole heart and mind to best this blade, fierce one!!! Strive to surpass me, Roronoa Zoro!!!
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Oda is still keeping secret Zoro's progress under Mihawk's training. it seems like he is building up an even more badass scene among the badass scenes.
He is hyping it up so much that my mind screams that Zoro knows Haki, COO, Coa and maybe the conqueror.
It would make sense that Zoro asked how Rayleigh was able to touch Kizaru. Besides, I think Zoro was already at max level in terms of brute strenght.
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Oda is still keeping secret Zoro's progress under Mihawk's training. it seems like he is building up an even more badass scene among the badass scenes.
He is hyping it up so much that my mind screams that Zoro knows Haki, COO, Coa and maybe the conqueror.
It would make sense that Zoro asked how Rayleigh was able to touch Kizaru. Besides, I think Zoro was already at max level in terms of brute strenght.
Than I would feel like Luffy were kinda useless, nah that would be no good… Ofcourse Zoro is supposed to be strong aka one of the monster trio and such, but him having all the same strenghts that LUffy has would just be bad... just because Gol D. Roger had a man(men) under him that could use all of the hakis doesn't mean that LUffy should too!
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Zoro having all types of Haki wouldn't necessarily mean that he's as strong as Luffy.
But yeah, he is. -
Zoro having all types of Haki wouldn't necessarily mean that he's as strong as Luffy.
But yeah, he is.But Luffy is the captain after all, he should have developed some strenghts that the rest of the crew doesn't have by now like COC for an example, I think that him being the captain should have a deeper reason behind it than "oh, he has a more fun character"!
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A DF isn't a strength Zoro doesn't have?
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A DF isn't a strength Zoro doesn't have?
Yes but if Zoro is just as strong as Luffy than what is it that makes him captain!? … He should at last have some attributes that Zoro(or Sanji for that matter) doesn't have and can't compare with!! Well those are my thoughts anyway and It is said after all that COC gives people the ability (possibility) to stand above all others, and I think that that should be Luffy's thing alone!
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My first theory is that Luffy is the only one with haki right now. Why? Because Oda has blatantly shown Luffy using haki all over the place since the time skip ended and none of the others have shown an iota of haki.
My second theory is that luffy will teach the others haki after blatantly using it to beat up a logia (caribou). Why does Luffy have to beat up caribou? Because Luffy has been using haki all over the place but none of the crew has seemed to realize that so using haki to beat up a logia is a good way to gain their attention.
Finally, I don't believe Zoro or Sanji have mastered the basics of haki because if they did I don't think Oda would have made such a big deal out of Luffy using it all the time post time skip.
Also the reason why I think Luffy needs to start teaching the crew haki is because i'm damn sure BB already started teaching his crew haki during the 2 years in order to defeat Shanks.
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My first theory is that Luffy is the only one with haki right now. Why? Because Oda has blatantly shown Luffy using haki all over the place since the time skip ended and none of the others have shown an iota of haki.
My second theory is that luffy will teach the others haki after blatantly using it to beat up a logia (caribou). Why does Luffy have to beat up caribou? Because Luffy has been using haki all over the place but none of the crew has seemed to realize that so using haki to beat up a logia is a good way to gain their attention.
Finally, I don't believe Zoro or Sanji have mastered the basics of haki because if they did I don't think Oda would have made such a big deal out of Luffy using it all the time post time skip.
Also the reason why I think Luffy needs to start teaching the crew haki is because i'm damn sure BB already started teaching his crew haki during the 2 years in order to defeat Shanks.
I agree with everything you say here except one thing I don't think BB actually has aqquired the ability to use haki, therefore making it impossible for him to teach it to his crew but than again we don't know what might happen in 2 years
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I'm sure that at least a few of BB's crewmembers already knew Haki. That is, the level 6 pirates. They were the strongest people in level 6, and most people there should be at a level where using Haki is commonplace. It's honestly strange that Auger & Jesus didn't seem to, but whatever.
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I'm sure that at least a few of BB's crewmembers already knew Haki. That is, the level 6 pirates. They were the strongest people in level 6, and most people there should be at a level where using Haki is commonplace. It's honestly strange that Auger & Jesus didn't seem to, but whatever.
Ok, point taken lol
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I'm sure that at least a few of BB's crewmembers already knew Haki. That is, the level 6 pirates. They were the strongest people in level 6, and most people there should be at a level where using Haki is commonplace. It's honestly strange that Auger & Jesus didn't seem to, but whatever.
It'd be funny if it was only Wolf that had it.
Anyways, I'd estimate Augur has a chance of knowing Observation, but as we know, not Armor.
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Wolf may very well not, I guess. He's probably the ultimate brawns over brains type person.
True, CoO would fit Auger well. Hope he'll get CoA eventually though, he'll probably be one of the world's foremost snipers at some point if he isn't already and it feels like such a powerful individual should at least be able to hit Logia users, plus CoA makes the bullets stronger.
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I agree with everything you say here except one thing I don't think BB actually has aqquired the ability to use haki, therefore making it impossible for him to teach it to his crew but than again we don't know what might happen in 2 years
BB can definitely use haki. He knew what it was way before Luffy did. He even commented that Luffy's haki had improved when they clashed at impel down. It's even probably accurately assumed that BB has COC. It's not surprising since BB was on whiebeard's crew, and his plan probably involved freeing prisoners from impel down and teaching them haki and then taking on Shanks.
@Coruscation:I'm sure that at least a few of BB's crewmembers already knew Haki. That is, the level 6 pirates. They were the strongest people in level 6, and most people there should be at a level where using Haki is commonplace. It's honestly strange that Auger & Jesus didn't seem to, but whatever.
I don't think anyone in impel down including the guards could use haki. The only level 6 people we knew were Ace, Crocodile and Jinbei and none of them could use haki. I'm sure if Shiryuu could have used haki he wouldn't have been afraid of Magellan since they're supposedly even in strength.
Edit: I'm pretty sure Ace got defeated not only because of the yami yami no mi but also because BB was using haki to hit him. That explains why BB was able to hit so hard.
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Yes but if Zoro is just as strong as Luffy than what is it that makes him captain!? … He should at last have some attributes that Zoro(or Sanji for that matter) doesn't have and can't compare with!! Well those are my thoughts anyway and It is said after all that COC gives people the ability (possibility) to stand above all others, and I think that that should be Luffy's thing alone!
He is stronger than Zoro. How does Zoro having all three haki types negate that fact? Luffy should always be faster due to the boost G2 gives him and being equal in base form.
Nah he shouldn't. That is whats cool about OP. Different than Naruto, DBZ, Berserk, Bleach, or Claymore where the star always shoots ahead of his friends because they happen to be special and/or receive special treatment in the form of power ups being handed to them.
It wasn't purely Roger's so why does it have to be Luffy's thing. Maybe Zoro won't have CoC but its not an actual power-up. Luffy is captain because he is just overall a more capable combatant and leader than Zoro even if its by a paper thin margin at the end of the series.
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I don't think anyone in impel down including the guards could use haki. The only level 6 people we knew were Ace, Crocodile and Jinbei and none of them could use haki. I'm sure if Shiryuu could have used haki he wouldn't have been afraid of Magellan since they're supposedly even in strength.
Why do you base a belief that no lvl 6 prisoners had Haki based on 3 of them not having it? That seems kind of odd. I don't think Haki is such a scarce ability as people sometimes think it is, pirates of that level really ought to have it for the most part IMO. To me it was telling when Oda let us know that all Vice Admiral-class Marines use Haki – that's the level at which Logia lolinvincibility ends, basically.
There's no reason that Shiryuu can't have it just because he was equal to Magellan.
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Why do you base a belief that no lvl 6 prisoners had Haki based on 3 of them not having it? That seems kind of odd. I don't think Haki is such a scarce ability as people sometimes think it is, pirates of that level really ought to have it for the most part IMO. To me it was telling when Oda let us know that all Vice Admiral-class Marines use Haki – that's the level at which Logia lolinvincibility ends, basically.
There's no reason that Shiryuu can't have it just because he was equal to Magellan.
It doesn't seem like any of them had haki and since none of them were df users it seems even more likely that they aren't. I seem to remember Kizaru saying that it's pointless to capture Raleigh because he'd just break out again. I know it's a bad example but trying to keep haki prisoners in jail is pretty hard. It's a point that hard to argue since there isn't much evidence but it just doesn't seem likely.
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I wonder whether Zoro have mastered haki or not.
He's of a completely different level from Hodi, but, if that's only his natural power, he would be so much incredible… I believe he mastered haki, even if i've got no proof
I feel like saying Ussop will certainly be the last to master haki, because : "The Power not to doubt, that is strength". But, i'm not really sure about this, he doesn't doubt when he's in danger... only in order to make laugh...
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Well like I've said before (well I said I completely agreed with the guy who said it) I think that none of the other straw hats have haki at the time being, but could very well be that Luffy would teach it to them… and about BB just that he could tell that Luffy's Haki had improved doesn't show that he can use it himself, I think Oda would have given us a little more of that than what he has allready shown, and by the way why show BB as a more of a pushover than he actually is than!? Well to be able to damage shanks aka the scars on Shank's face he gotta be powerful, but there is no guarantee, everyones just guessing (speculating)!!
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It doesn't seem like any of them had haki
But how can you say that it "seems" like they don't have Haki when we haven't seen them do anything? And why do them being DF users or not matter, anyway? If they're not DF users, that only makes it more likely if anything.
Kizaru probably said that moreso because Rayleigh's a complete monster in general, not just cause he's good at Haki. Not everyone will be able to do what he could just because they also know Haki.
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What does beating Hodi have go do with having haki? He blitzed Hodi and owned with a single strike. Where does Precog or increased attack power factor into the equation?
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Well CoA could increase attack power, not sure if it's clear whether it does that with swords, and CoO would increase his ability to outmaneuver Hodi.
I agree that Haki had little to do with it though.
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I find it hard to believe that Mihawk wouldn't teach Zoro haki.
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I find it hard to believe that Mihawk wouldn't teach Zoro haki.
It hasn't even been said if Mihawk can use haki in the first place so that's what would make it not weird, plus haki is something that you're supposed to learn in a long period of time, even Rayleigh only said that he would "attempt" to beat it into Luffy in two years since he seemed to have a good infinity for it or something like that, I don't really wanna bother rereading that part right now so that will be my opinion for now :ninja:
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Mihawk not being able to use Haki would be the weirdest thing of all. Vista uses it and he's not even the strongest swordsman, every single other top-tier we've seen can use it, it makes no sense for Mihawk to be an exception.
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Mihawk not being able to use Haki would be the weirdest thing of all. Vista uses it and he's not even the strongest swordsman, every single other top-tier we've seen can use it, it makes no sense for Mihawk to be an exception.
Yeah I guess that's true when you look at it like that
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Mihawk not being able to use Haki would be the weirdest thing of all. Vista uses it and he's not even the strongest swordsman, every single other top-tier we've seen can use it, it makes no sense for Mihawk to be an exception.
Our assumptions are based on the fact that Mihawk has not shown haki at all. The second Mihawk shows haki even a little we will agree with you lol.
You forget that when mihawk asked what luffy's goal was he said that in order to become pirate king luffy would have to become stronger than him. Which means that all the yonkou's who are at the top of the pirate world are stronger than mihawk. And since shanks is a swordsman with one hand and is stronger than the greatest swordsman in the world we can only assume that this is because mihawk does not have haki.
I find it hard to believe that Mihawk wouldn't teach Zoro haki.
Mihawk agreed to teach Zoro the way of the sword, he never agreed to teach him haki. Whether mihawk has haki or not does not change this fact and mihawk is not one to give out gifts for free.
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Our assumptions are based on the fact that Mihawk has not shown haki at all. The second Mihawk shows haki even a little we will agree with you lol.
You forget that when mihawk asked what luffy's goal was he said that in order to become pirate king luffy would have to become stronger than him. Which means that all the yonkou's who are at the top of the pirate world are stronger than mihawk. And since shanks is a swordsman with one hand and is stronger than the greatest swordsman in the world we can only assume that this is because mihawk does not have haki.
Mihawk agreed to teach Zoro the way of the sword, he never agreed to teach him haki. Whether mihawk has haki or not does not change this fact and mihawk is not one to give out gifts for free.
I'm literally all over the place right now so I don't know what to think :sad:
