It has been said that every vice-admiral has and must have haki… so everyone at that power level eventually will use haki if they don't yet.
General 'Haki' Discussion
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@Shergal: Mihawk wouldn't be a shichibukai if he could take on a Yonkou. And I don't think mihawk wants revenge but he did seem interested in testing his strength against whitebeard to see how he'd do. Which means he doesn't consider himself at Yonkou level at all. And they have haki teachers amongst the marines, they didn't just learn it naturally. A lot of people die without ever achieving it so its not as easy as you seem to think. And what makes you think all the shichibukai are at Vice Admiral level? Have you forgotten that Garp is a vice admiral and most of the vice admirals have been around since Roger's time?
@Coruscation: Just because they've introduced haki now doesn't mean that all the shichibukai the strawhats haven't defeated yet have haki lol. Pretty sure if Doflamingo had it he would have used it against Crocodile. Sounds like you're making Crocodile and Moria out to be fake shichibukai the way you keep mentioning "at that level they should be at least this strong" or something.
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I find it very plausible that he doesn't have interest in being a "normal" pirate at all (meaning he doesn't want to be the pirate king or that things) so he accepted being a Shichibukai for the WG to stop bothering him. He seems like that kind of person, who just wants to sail here and there destroying some ships without worrying about anything
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Yeah he does, but it is not that likely that Zoro knows Haki because again, Mihawk never mentioned anything, or it was simply never hinted.
In Sanji's case it is even less likely! since his training was based in running away from queers and fending them off. Nothing related to Haki.
We've been over this so many times that any serious consideration of Arlong joining is considered pure retardedness.
Yeah because you need a teacher to learn it… See Coby. And he wasn't just running away from them he had to fight 99 masters of them.
Iva seems to know about it, not saying he has it, so it isn't far stretched to think that not one of them had it or Sanji being too dumb to not learn it at his own after realizing what it is and thinking about things happenend in the past like Rayleigh able to hurt KiZaru.
Hell even his DJ could let him start to think about it
I hate this whole haki is hard to learn and so rare bla bla... Aisa had it, Enel had it, All of the fodder girls of AL had it, 4 WB, Vista, Marco, Ace and probably Ace have it.
But yeah Sanji, monster trio guy, has no chance to have it.
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Mihawk is a wuss, he couldn't even cut Jozu.
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I find it very plausible that he doesn't have interest in being a "normal" pirate at all (meaning he doesn't want to be the pirate king or that things) so he accepted being a Shichibukai for the WG to stop bothering him. He seems like that kind of person, who just wants to sail here and there destroying some ships without worrying about anything
Yeah Mihawk seems like that now but we know he was an active pirate before so he must have had a goal at some point and apparently did not achieve it.
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Yet one can safely assume that the STRONGEST swordsman in the world can use haki. akainu said that vista can use haki, i think it's highly likely that mihawk can use it!
I don't think Mihawk has haki and I think the only reason Vista was able to fight on par with Mihawk at all was because of his haki advantage. Otherwise Mihawk would have decimated him.
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The admirals have haki and can predict attacks. They probably didn't really get cut but manipulated their bodies to make it look like it or did some form of COA. Crocodile doesn't have that ability. Doflamingo definitely doesn't have haki. And Whitebeard did serious damage to Akainu so I don't know where you were going with that.
Because of their relationship, they weren't fighting to death at all. Doflamingo didn't go all out as far as we have seen.
About Whitebeard, yes he did hurt Akainu but there were some examples like when he attacked Kizaru.
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I hate this whole haki is hard to learn and so rare bla bla… Aisa had it, Enel had it, All of the fodder girls of AL had it, 4 WB, Vista, Marco, Ace and probably Ace have it.
But yeah Sanji, monster trio guy, has no chance to have it.
**Enel and Aisa were iirc born with it, and the other guys you mentioned are really strong folk who have been fighting since before Sanji was born. I agree with you overall, but you didn't use the best examples.
Anyway, I don't expect Sanji to be able to use both of the main colors effectively since he didn't have a proper teacher. However, there's no reason that in 2 entire years he couldn't have become really good at using basic CoA and perhaps a tiny bit of CoO.**
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Kishido you write way too fast.
I'll explain!
Coby = Sanji
DJ = Diablo Jamble
Ace and probably Ace = ??? -
The weird thing about Sanji using COA is that the most basic CoA is mostly defensive and used the way Sentoumaru and Marigold use it. For him to have mastered it to the point that he can use it on his legs is a little farfetched for me. I think you need lots of image training and you need to be able to turn your haki on and off in like .1 secs for it to be useful in a fight. Turning on an imaginary armor is harder than most people make it out to be.
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Just because they've introduced haki now doesn't mean that all the shichibukai the strawhats haven't defeated yet have haki lol. Pretty sure if Doflamingo had it he would have used it against Crocodile. Sounds like you're making Crocodile and Moria out to be fake shichibukai the way you keep mentioning "at that level they should be at least this strong" or something
- I didn't say that he must have Haki because they've not fought him yet.
- Not if he was just playing around with him, which it looked like he was. It's short-sighted to base your conclusion off that lone encounter.
- They're not fake Shichibukai, but Doflamingo is a lot stronger than them. He fodderized one of Whitebeard's commanders, and it's very unlikely that any of the commanders (except perhaps Ace) couldn't use Haki. At his level it would only make sense for him to have it.
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Yeah Mihawk seems like that now but we know he was an active pirate before so he must have had a goal at some point and apparently did not achieve it.
If you have any I'd be interested if you could provide links and quotes for this. I only recall him ever being spoken of as the strongest swordsman, blah blah, and rather a man of mystery otherwise as far as his past went. Am I forgetting some scene with the Gorosei or something where they spoke of something more?
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@I:
If you have any I'd be interested if you could provide links and quotes for this. I only recall him ever being spoken of as the strongest swordsman, blah blah, and rather a man of mystery otherwise as far as his past went. Am I forgetting some scene with the Gorosei or something where they spoke of something more?
He was at Roger's execution with a lot of people who were and still are shichibukai. Since some of them had dreams of becoming the pirate king I assumed Mihawk was there because he too had a goal. Since it was before Shanks became his own captain, I'm also assuming it was before Mihawk and Shanks ever fought.
- I didn't say that he must have Haki because they've not fought him yet.
- Not if he was just playing around with him, which it looked like he was. It's short-sighted to base your conclusion off that lone encounter.
- They're not fake Shichibukai, but Doflamingo is a lot stronger than them. He fodderized one of Whitebeard's commanders, and it's very unlikely that any of the commanders (except perhaps Ace) couldn't use Haki. At his level it would only make sense for him to have it.
Who exactly did Doflamingo fodderize? And I don't think Doflamingo is stronger than Crocodile at all. Especially if he can't injure him.
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Yeah because you need a teacher to learn it… See Coby. And he wasn't just running away from them he had to fight 99 masters of them.
Iva seems to know about it, not saying he has it, so it isn't far stretched to think that not one of them had it or Sanji being too dumb to not learn it at his own after realizing what it is and thinking about things happenend in the past like Rayleigh able to hurt KiZaru.
Hell even his DJ could let him start to think about it
I hate this whole haki is hard to learn and so rare bla bla... Aisa had it, Enel had it, All of the fodder girls of AL had it, 4 WB, Vista, Marco, Ace and probably Ace have it.
But yeah Sanji, monster trio guy, has no chance to have it.
Excuse me do you not get a slightest hint of this page of how hard it is!?!?!?!? http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-16/one-piece/chapter-597.html
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For all we know Mihawk's goal was always to be the strongest swordsman and nothing else. That could've simply been his goal at the time he was at Roger's execution. Dragon was there, too, and he's no pirate.
I've always thought of Mihawk as being like start-of-series Zoro, caring only for his ambition but still being willing to work with the government to keep them off his back and just to make his livelihood. I doubt he was ever a "pirate's pirate" so to speak.
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Excuse me do you not get a slightest hint of this page of how hard it is!?!?!?!? http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-16/one-piece/chapter-597.html
Yeah, and I find it hard to believe that people think that Sanji was coming up with haki while he was running. He was probably dreaming of women the whole time.
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I hate this whole haki is hard to learn and so rare bla bla… Aisa had it, Enel had it, All of the fodder girls of AL had it, 4 WB, Vista, Marco, Ace and probably Ace have it.
But yeah Sanji, monster trio guy, has no chance to have it.
That's because it IS hard to learn otherwise it wouldn't have taken Luffy a year and a half to learn them, and just because Enel, Aisa and a couple more know how to use it doesn't mean it's easy, it just means anyone can learn it with proper training. In Aisa's case she was born with a natural ability to use it. And with the commanders' it is expected for them to have it since they were under WB's command, nothing strange there.
If you see Haki as bodybuilding, everyone has the potential to develop it, but not everyone have the capacitated teachers and the discipline to spend 2 years learning it.
naruto was WAY MORE KICKASS after the timeskip
i mean to show his badassness, him and sakura managed to get the bell from kakashi. beating pacifista's is so lame compared to that awesomeness
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Yeah it is that hard that foidder AL can use it with ease. Luffy had to learn all 3 and even the rarest.
I never said Sanji should be a master in what ever. But basics are enough. He had 2 years to come up with something or reailze what it can be or even Iva explained it.
By your logic why Sanji and Luffy become stronger even they weren't training like Zoro all the time.
Not saying it is a prove. But Sanji and Zoro are very likely to have it. That's my stand and you can say whatever you want
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Dragon wasn't a pirate but he definitely had a goal <.<
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Yeah it is that hard that foidder AL can use it with ease. Luffy had to learn all 3 and even the rarest.
I never said Sanji should be a master in what ever. But basics are enough. He had 2 years to come up with something or reailze what it can be or even Iva explained it.
By your logic why Sanji and Luffy become stronger even they weren't training like Zoro all the time.
Not saying it is a prove. But Sanji and Zoro are very likely to have it. That's my stand and you can say whatever you want
Sanji and Luffy become stronger with each fight. Zoro trains so that he can master the new techniques he discovers with each fight and use them at will.
I'm worried that if ussop doesn't stop doubting he won't able to obtain a strong haki. Since haki is "The act of not doubting" afterall…
Edit: Well not necessarily worried but interested in how Oda will make it all work out. -
Sanji and Luffy become stronger with each fight. Zoro trains so that he can master the new techniques he discovers with each fight and use them at will.
I'm worried that if ussop doesn't stop doubting he won't able to obtain a strong haki. Since haki is "The act of not doubting" afterall…
I know… And that's the point. It was never stated in the manga
A: That you need a teacher to learn it and can't learn it on the own
B: That Iva or any of the 99 masters knows shit about hakiAnd I never ever thought about that that Sanji will have the level of mastery like Luffy it has. But he could able to utilize one on a basic level for example or mastering just one on his own
Only point is that both Sanji and Zoro gave shit about or were shocked that Luffy used haki against the Kraken... hell he even has shouten... CoA. Elefant.
Yes all this is no prove... But you can't prove shit either. You believe that Sanji won't have it and I believe Zoro and Sanji both learned in to some degree seeing that all top tiers + some of their strongest member could use it and even some fodder people + Coby will be able to use it or already using it.
Even if it is hard to learn... Sanji and Zoro are fighting geniuses and both are smart enough to realize after the ass-kicking they got from the PXs, Kuma and KiZaru that they had tp become stronger. They probably asked themselve... How was Rayleigh able to hurt Kizaru or what has Sentoumaru done with his defense. And people like Iva for example should be able to explain what haki is.
And both of them are pure physical fighters and the 2 strongest after Luffy. Haki is the next step for them besides just becoming stronger and faster. Even some attacks like DJ or some strange things which happened in the past to them they will maybe review once again and come to the conclusion that they have already used it to some degree. hell DJ is screaming for CoA. And everyone who denies it should read the explanation of CoA and see the Boa siter matching herself up once again
But if you go with the simple thinking... Sanji was just running and never questioned himself how to become stronger than dunno. That point is already plain wrong.
But let us stop it. We will see it at the end of this arc and the next fights.
Have a nice day... I will jump into the nightlife now.
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Yeah it is that hard that foidder AL can use it with ease. Luffy had to learn all 3 and even the rarest.
Yeah, in a year and half of training and only to learn the basics. He needed another 6 months to properly learn the 3 types of haki. Fodder or not is is hard to learn. Try to go to the gym for a year and half and see if you can achieve a ripped body. It won't be an easy task dude, same with Haki.
I never said Sanji should be a master in what ever. But basics are enough. He had 2 years to come up with something or reailze what it can be or even Iva explained it.
And how is it expected for Sanji to learn haki when he didn't have a teacher? Luffy had a teacher and still took him a 18 months while Sanji had to run away from queers.
By your logic why Sanji and Luffy become stronger even they weren't training like Zoro all the time.
Not saying it is a prove. But Sanji and Zoro are very likely to have it. That's my stand and you can say whatever you want
Fine, you can think whatever you want, but fact is that Haki is hard to learn even with a teacher like Rayleigh assisting you, and while Zoro is more likely to have learnt Haki from Mihawk, Sanji is very very unlikely since he didn't have someone to teach him since his "teachers" were trying to convert him.
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I'm sure all our questions will be answered when Caribou is dealt with, whenever that is.
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Yes of course you are right. Dragon had a goal. But Coruscation's point is that just because a person appeared in the chapter about Roger's execution doesn't mean they were a pirate or had any designs on Roger's title.
I don't mean to be rude, but you seem to have built a lot of assumptions up based on rather little in the way of proof. Just being at the funeral of a man whose name still echoes in history years later is hardly proof of anything other than an interest in the procedings, at this point. Until the time comes when Oda choses to tell us about Mihawk's past, if he ever does, we can only go by what we know–e.g. that he is the greatest swordsman ever, that he is an extreme loner, that he at some point accepted an invitation to be a Shichibukai for his own mysterious reasons, and that he has taken an interest in the SH Pirates for some reason known only to himself. Much else about him is purely speculation, I'm afraid. I, myself, am rather addicted to specualtion, but you can't really use it in a debate as absolute proof of something else--like whether or not Mihawk has haki. See where I'm going with this?
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Dragon wasn't a pirate but he definitely had a goal <.<
Unfortunately this cannot be confirmed
for all we know he was on rogers ship and while thus on it discovered the reason for wanting to end the WG blank history blah blah blah
shakky was a pirate and look at her now beating bums to the curb who dont pay their tabs, rayleigh coats ships and maybe dragon wanted to go change the world -
@I survived the buster call: That all those people who had goals felt the need to see the death of the man who was probably the strongest alive supported my theory but its kind of too much to explain. I believe the question was if Mihawk ever had a crew and if he did what happened to them? From my point of view it's impossible to become a pirate without a crew and once you become a pirate even if you become a loner you'll still be hunted down. So Mihawk must have a had a crew before he became a loner. So what happened to them? Since we don't know what Mihawk's original goal was it is hard to say, but since at least half of the shichibukai present at Roger's death were aiming for the pirate king seat (Moria and Crocodile) I deemed that it is very likely that Doflamingo and Mihawk both aimed for that same seat. Since Mihawk no longer seems to be aiming for the pirate king seat, his dream must have ended at some point. And because Croc and Moria's dreams were ended by a Yonkou and their crews no longer seem to exist it became apparent that the same thing may have happened to Mihawk. (Coruscation thinks Mihawk might have just disbanded his crew but I'm not so sure)
It's true that its not definite but as you can see there is a logical method to my madness and it's not like it doesn't make sense. If you think of it from the governments point of view, it is very beneficial to make people "who have survived an encounter with a yonkou" shichibukai. Kind of like how Whitebeard is famous for drawing with Roger. And the government has a long list of candidates for shichibukai because there are tons of silver medalists who have lost to the yonkou.
Unfortunately this cannot be confirmed
for all we know he was on rogers ship and while thus on it discovered the reason for wanting to end the WG blank history blah blah blah
shakky was a pirate and look at her now beating bums to the curb who dont pay their tabs, rayleigh coats ships and maybe dragon wanted to go change the worldHis goal is revolution what are you talking about lol. Ohhh…you think Dragon might have been a pirate at first? I seriously doubt that but not much is known about him so it's possible.
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Zoro and Sanji probably have the ability of haki, but they haven't mastered it to the extent that Luffy has. And personally, I hope they don't develop it yet because using haki in battle is Luffy's thing right now. I don't think that move we all saw Zoro use to hurt Hordy at the end of the chapter was haki at all.
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Doflamingo has proven himself strong enough that him having Haki is very plausible.
I don't agree at all with this idea that Haki is something people just up and decide to learn once they have achieve a certain level of strength and experience. Haki is a skill no different than mastering a DF, Fishman Karate, Rokushiki, Swordsmanship, Okama Kenpo, Life Return, etc. Yes I do think its fairly scarce.
When you have other skill to worry about developing I doubt its easy to master Haki on top of other plans occupying your time. The Navy are a military who likely train their marines from day one the basics of swordsmanship, Rokushiki, and, those with potential, Haki. VA and up being the pinnacle of that training regiment.
Luffy only has it because he had it drilled into him by a master for a year and half on an Island filled with super strong beasts and constantly fluctuating extreme weather and had an affinity for it because of his lineage anyways. Think people severely underestimate how hard it is to acquire Haki.
Most of the Warlords don't seem to know it and I think thats telling no hints are dropped that such extraordinary people have such a skill. Crocodile is good enough to be a warlord because even at MF only an extremely small percentage of people could actually hurt him. Donflamingo and DC 6-16 not being among them. Now the DCs could surprise me but I doubt Don will. There isn't even a reason for him to have Haki in the story and doesn't seem the guy to put in the extraordinary effort.
Reason I don't even think the Division Commanders don't have it is that the Chain Chomp guys tries attacking Kizaru and simply passes through and no big deal is made about it like with Akainu or Aokiji, my warlord point, and I doubt even Akainu could stand up to around a dozen Haki users at once especially when one is Marco and Akainu was injured. The DC using their skills force Akainu to keep reforming is more sound to me. Also think being on WB ship for years is a point against them having Haki. WB was already the King of the sea and was aid to not have made any news for a long time. Doubt his sons did more than party and intimidate lesser pirates not getting lessons.
Yeah Mihawk seems like that now but we know he was an active pirate before so he must have had a goal at some point and apparently did not achieve it.
He is the strongest Swordsman in the world recognized as such by even people older than him like Vice Admirals and Vista. Pretty sure he, unlike the other Shickichukai, achieved his goal and is just bored at the top at this point without a rival to fight with. His only failure is that he seems to lack any comrades which is the real reason he doesn't have Yonkou status. Zoro and Perona fixing those problems. Guy has never been depicted as a looser like Moriah and Croc or hinted he is a warlord out of necessity like Boa and Jinbe. You're arguments entirely conjecture not a shred of real evidence.
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I don't think Sanji and Zoro have haki yet. This is pure speculation, though. You can argue all you want, but you won't reach a conclusion until Oda shows us. It could go either way. I personally hope they don't have it yet, because that would give room for a lot of further development.
@Just Gabe
I see your point, but you're not considering the fact that we don't know how the whole 2 years period went for Sanji. The recipies he stole could have something to do with being trained, he could've had (strong) masters training him just like Rayleigh and Mihawk did to Luffy and Zoro.Also, regardless of them having haki now or not, to me it's pretty obvious that at least Zoro will have it some day. He intends to surpass Mihawk, doesn't he?
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I don't think Sanji and Zoro have haki yet. This is pure speculation, though. You can argue all you want, but you won't reach a conclusion until Oda shows us. It could go either way. I personally hope they don't have it yet, because that would give room for a lot of further development.
This guy gets it.
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He was at Roger's execution with a lot of people who were and still are shichibukai. Since some of them had dreams of becoming the pirate king I assumed Mihawk was there because he too had a goal. Since it was before Shanks became his own captain, I'm also assuming it was before Mihawk and Shanks ever fought.
Who exactly did Doflamingo fodderize? And I don't think Doflamingo is stronger than Crocodile at all. Especially if he can't injure him.
He fodderized this guy: http://www.mangareader.net/103-31007-5/one-piece/chapter-556.html
and I think Doflamingo is deffinetly stronger than Croc, and I mean by alot,since, like has been said before, it looks he's just playing with the guy he didn't nessiserily wan't to kill him, at least I can't see it that way, I mean look he probably just wanted his attention: http://www.mangareader.net/103-41091-8/one-piece/chapter-566.html -
He fodderized this guy: http://www.mangareader.net/103-31007-5/one-piece/chapter-556.html
and I think Doflamingo is deffinetly stronger than Croc, and I mean by alot,since, like has been said before, it looks he's just playing with the guy he didn't nessiserily wan't to kill him, at least I can't see it that way, I mean look he probably just wanted his attention: http://www.mangareader.net/103-41091-8/one-piece/chapter-566.htmlAll Croc has to do is touch a guy and they dehydrate to death and Moria can make it so they disappear under sunlight. I wouldn't call Doflamingo stronger than them just yet. He seems interesting, but Doflamingo might end up being just fodder in the end. Once the details behind his devil fruit come to light I don't think the strawhats will have much trouble with him.
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I don't think Sanji and Zoro have haki yet. This is pure speculation, though. You can argue all you want, but you won't reach a conclusion until Oda shows us. It could go either way. I personally hope they don't have it yet, because that would give room for a lot of further development.
I agree with all my heart :D
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I don't agree at all with this idea that Haki is something people just up and decide to learn once they have achieve a certain level of strength and experience.
I didn't say that, either. I said that Doflamingo is at a level of strength where him having Haki is plausible. He's evidently strong enough that it would be entirely believable. No guarantee that he has to, but it's stupid to conclude that he doesn't already.
the Chain Chomp guys tries attacking Kizaru and simply passes through and no big deal is made about it like with Akainu or Aokiji
http://www.mangareader.net/103-44810-12/one-piece/chapter-570.html
The Admirals seem to know how to avoid even Haki-infused attacks. This is no strike against Rakuyo.
The fact that seven division commanders were confident in their ability to break past Kizaru and get Luffy past him indicates that they have Haki. They're not idiots; these are people who have spent many years in the vicinity of the world's strongest man, they know what it takes to fight a Logia user. Remember how useless Brooke & Usopp were vs. Kizaru? They couldn't do a thing to him.
Considering that every Vice Admiral has Haki I really fail to see how it makes sense for people as prestigous and respected as Whitebeard's division commanders not to know it. So the only Haki users on Whitebeard's whole side was WB and his top 3 commanders, IYO? Is it possible that the rest don't have it? Sure, I guess. Is there any reason to believe it? No, not really. The argument that they probably didn't train to get it carries little weight, because not doing so is only holding themselves back given how useful a skill it is. They've got years and years, why not do it? It's a really useful ability and we've seen that it's a great disadvantage not to possess Color of Observation against an opponent who does, as well as screwing you over should you meet a Logia user or be a physical combatant against someone like Luffy. Why hold themselves back like that?
Also, regarding its scarcity, Rayleigh only suggested that it was the Sovereign Haki that's truly extremely, extremely rare. The other two shades aren't something everyone and their mother uses, to be sure, but at really high levels like that of VAs, WB commanders and people of similar prestige there's no reason why it should be as rare as you think it is. It takes years to learn, these people have had years to learn it. It would be stupid if the only people in the NW who has it are like, the Emperor captains and 2/3 strongest people of their crews.
As for people capable of hurting Crocodile…
http://www.mangareader.net/103-32580-13/one-piece/chapter-557.html
Here a bunch of people that aren't Marco, Jozu, Vista cut him off with swords and he doesn't go near WB again. Wonder what that indicates?
http://www.mangareader.net/103-35241-11/one-piece/chapter-560.html
Here he's been pushed back and away from the Moby Dick. Unless you think that means Whitebeard himself took action and threw him over there, that implies people there could fight with him. I don't think that people being able to hurt him is such a rarity as you believe.
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All Croc has to do is touch a guy and they dehydrate to death and Moria can make it so they disappear under sunlight. I wouldn't call Doflamingo stronger than them just yet. He seems interesting, but Doflamingo might end up being just fodder in the end. Once the details behind his devil fruit come to light I don't think the strawhats will have much trouble with him.
I actually think he will be one of the biggest troublemakers in the New World, I think he's being highly underrestimated by many people on this forum!!
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Considering what we know about the length it takes to learn Haki. Doesn't seem likely that Sanji and Zoro will learn it within the duration of the rest of the series without another timeskip. Unless of course they already know how to use it.
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I didn't say that, either. I said that Doflamingo is at a level of strength where him having Haki is plausible. He's evidently strong enough that it would be entirely believable. No guarantee that he has to, but it's stupid to conclude that he doesn't already.
I'm talking in general. I'm tired of people saying its almost inevitable than Don has Haki or that people like Jinbei, Iva, or even Ace undoubtedly have Haki showing no signs at all because they happen to be at a certain level.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-44810-12/one-piece/chapter-570.html
The Admirals seem to know how to avoid even Haki-infused attacks. This is no strike against Rakuyo.
Beyond the point. No emphasis is put on this encounter. Not saying its direct evidence of no Haki, just that a scene like that or Don decapitating Croc is something. People claiming they likely have haki have nothing but the strength argument which is what I find void. Not arguing who does and doesn't ahve Haki really, arguing the flawed logic people are using to defend their claims. Barely better than this guy talking shit about Mihawk based on nothing.
The fact that seven division commanders were confident in their ability to break past Kizaru and get Luffy past him indicates that they have Haki. They're not idiots; these are people who have spent many years in the vicinity of the world's strongest man, they know what it takes to fight a Logia user. Remember how useless Brooke & Usopp were vs. Kizaru? They couldn't do a thing to him.
No it means they are confident they could push forward even with an Admiral in their way. By that logic Iva and Jinbei have Haki because they tried to stop Akainu. I'd like to compare them to Apoo who did technically stop an Admiral. Didn't hurt Kizaru but Hawkins was saved by his actions. Looked like the same exact situation with Luffy and the DC only they were skilled enough to get away. Now again they could easily surprise me but that scene is not an indication.
Considering that every Vice Admiral has Haki I really fail to see how it makes sense for people as prestigous and respected as Whitebeard's division commanders not to know it. So the only Haki users on Whitebeard's whole side was WB and his top 3 commanders, IYO? Is it possible that the rest don't have it? Sure, I guess. Is there any reason to believe it? No, not really. The argument that they probably didn't train to get it carries little weight, because not doing so is only holding themselves back given how useful a skill it is. They've got years and years, why not do it? It's a really useful ability and we've seen that it's a great disadvantage not to possess Color of Observation against an opponent who does, as well as screwing you over should you meet a Logia user or be a physical combatant against someone like Luffy. Why hold themselves back like that?
They are at the top of a military unit that specifically trains them for the ability. We do not know how prestigious or respected WB commanders actually are. Most of them not even being formally introduced in the story line points to them not being that important in the grand scheme of things. Possibility we don't see most of them again besides cameos.
I kinda puzzled at how a post mostly devoted to Donflomingo is turned into a debate about the DC. I didn't say they didn't train, that obviously for Don and other characters. I was just bringing up the possibility that they just aren't good enough to have awakened. They are simply proficient gunman, swordsman, and melee fighters. When people like Iva who is older and seemingly stronger doesn't have it (also around Haki master) I don't see why they definitely have to have it.
Also, regarding its scarcity, Rayleigh only suggested that it was the Sovereign Haki that's truly extremely, extremely rare. The other two shades aren't something everyone and their mother uses, to be sure, but at really high levels like that of VAs, WB commanders and people of similar prestige there's no reason why it should be as rare as you think it is. It takes years to learn, these people have had years to learn it. It would be stupid if the only people in the NW who has it are like, the Emperor captains and 2/3 strongest people of their crews.
No Rayleigh actually commented that people can train their entire lives and never unlock the haki at all.
When you repeat there are no reason for "so and so" it might be a good idea to tell me why the reasons already given to you are flawed? Warlords and people we know without a doubt are on warlord level(Iva, Ace, Mag) don't show any signs of Haki. So why do less prestigious fighters need to have Haki for the sake of the story? Obviously its useful in combat.
Why? Why would it be stupid if only the crew members who actually get screen time have Haki? Why does it matter if characters who will only appear in a few panels across the entire manga have Haki or not?
As for people capable of hurting Crocodile…
http://www.mangareader.net/103-32580-13/one-piece/chapter-557.html
Here a bunch of people that aren't Marco, Jozu, Vista cut him off with swords and he doesn't go near WB again. Wonder what that indicates?
He did attack them again, Das bones even kicks WB pirate ass. You're telling me some fodder Haki users blocked Croc from WB then took off and Croc took the opportunity to try again? Thats unlikely and do you really think Haki is going to be commonplace in the New World like AL? Everybody who is even associated with a somebody will have it like Chakra and Nen? No I think being restricted to the best of the best and their closes comrades makes more sense. Even then we'll see people comparable in strength with little Haki at all throughout the story.
http://www.mangareader.net/103-35241-11/one-piece/chapter-560.html
Here he's been pushed back and away from the Moby Dick. Unless you think that means Whitebeard himself took action and threw him over there, that implies people there could fight with him. I don't think that people being able to hurt him is such a rarity as you believe.
Yeah you're extrapolating a lot of information from nothing. People were always in entirely different positions every time we saw them in the war. Fodder Haki users couldn't stop Croc even if they tried. He stopped attacking for plot purposes just like Iva didn't Galaxy Wink Mag for plot purposes, that and his element of surprise was gone.
! Who came between Marco and Akainu in the end? How was buggy ok after getting nailed by his bomb? Where did the giants go? How was Curiel ok at the funeral after being bathed in lava? How did Atomosk get away from Doflamingo? If Oars was close enough to almost touch Ace why as he so far the rest of the war? Where were Doflomingo, Moriah, and Kuma when all the WB DC, NW pirates, were backing up Luffy for the final push towards Ace?
! We could be here all day making pointless inferences to why and how things went down -
No it means they are confident they could push forward even with an Admiral in their way.
And how the hell are they going to do that if Kizaru can just sit there and laugh as nothing happens when they fruitlessly attack him? They couldn't. This scene is clearly an indicator that Whitebeard's commanders, in numbers, have what it takes to make even an Admiral sweat and can't just brush them off. That clearly points to Haki. When you consider that Oda had been repeatedly emphasizing people using Haki and what it does to Logia users for a while and in the post-war arc going on to inform us that every VA has it and giving us a detailed explanation on its usage, it does so even more.
I kinda puzzled at how a post mostly devoted to Donflomingo is turned into a debate about the DC
Because I don't really care that much about Doflamingo, but arguing that the WB division commanders don't have it comes off as extremely strange to me and acting as if Haki is some sort of ultra-super-rare gift of god bothers me quite a bit.
No Rayleigh actually commented that people can train their entire lives and never unlock the haki at all.
Probably because they train the wrong way. Every single person on Amazon Lily down to the fodderest of fodder has Haki and don't give me some nonsense about genes; it's a skill like any other, people inflate its rarity/difficulty way too much. Train right, and you can learn it. That's the One Piece way, not that you have to somehow have been lucky enough to have the predisposition or whatever. You need proper guidance or get lucky, not frikkin' both to even have a chance at being able to use Haki at some point in time. It shouldn't be something people are restricted from having just by being who they are.
Why? Why would it be stupid if only the crew members who actually get screen time have Haki?
I'd like to flip that around, why the hell should only the members who are important to the story get Haki? You're inflating its rarity and difficulty beyond what was ever really implied. Guys who don't get screen time but that we know are really, really strong and respected should have Haki because it befits them. To me that was the whole point of Oda mentioning that all the Vice Admirals wield it. They shouldn't be lacking such a useful tool for combat and that even is the ONLY way to even be able to fight against Logia and perhaps some other DF users beyond being ultra-lucky and somehow having access to their natural weakness in a form with which you can attack them with it.
We do not know how prestigious or respected WB commanders actually are.
Jimbei: "The commanders…!! What a great help!!"
That's coming from a person who's pretty damn strong himself. It was also the commanders that got the most screen time and attention of Whitebeard's crew in the war, they were shown fighting powerful people quite a lot of the time. Just the fact that they're the core crew of Whitebeard of all people should tell you how powerful they are.
You're telling me some fodder Haki users blocked Croc from WB then took off and Croc took the opportunity to try again?
I'm telling you that signs point to Crocodile actually having been stopped from attacking Whitebeard again and was pushed away from the Moby Dick. That suggests that he wasn't exactly going around being lolinvincible, probably because Haki isn't so rare it's almost non-existent even in the New World like you seem to think. If Amazon Lily fodder can have it, what's stopping the division commanders?
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I agree with Ryuksgelus for the most part, he really gets it.
Considering what we know about the length it takes to learn Haki. Doesn't seem likely that Sanji and Zoro will learn it within the duration of the rest of the series without another timeskip. Unless of course they already know how to use it.
Think of the New World as the ultimate training ground. If the strawhats have enough high quality fights, they can all master and explore the depths of haki before Raftel.
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**Haki is almost certainly going to be a fairly common thing in the NW. Perhaps not at the start, but we will eventually get to the point where being able to use Haki and being even slightly strong go hand in hand.
Remember, Whitebeard Pirate fodder were holding both Crocodile and Daz Bones back. That's a clear a sign as any that Haki is definitely not some particularly super rare in the NW, and very likely something extremely common on Whitebeard's ship.**
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I don't think haki is common at all and since wb "pirate fodder" never actually injured Crocodile I doubt they have it. Amazon Lily is a special case. Sure, the further you go into the New World the more likely you are to find haki users, but even then they aren't very many.
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I don't think haki is common at all and since wb "pirate fodder" never actually injured Crocodile I doubt they have it. Amazon Lily is a special case. Sure, the further you go into the New World the more likely you are to find haki users, but even then they aren't very many.
You do not know whether or not the WB fodder actually injuried Croc. But even if they didn't, it doesn't matter. What matters is that they were able to push him (and Daz Bones) back without water and apparently without seastone. It's pretty obvious even fodder members on Whitebeard's ship could use Haki.
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You do not know whether or not the WB fodder actually injuried Croc. But even if they didn't, it doesn't matter. What matters is that they were able to push him (and Daz Bones) back without water and apparently without seastone. It's pretty obvious even fodder members on Whitebeard's ship could use Haki.
Crocodile has experience fighting the WB pirates. You saw how quickly Jozu knocked him out so imagine what would happen if a fodder manage to turn Crocodile's head into sand. He wouldn't be able to protect himself from haki attacks. Crocodile backing off could easily be explained as him being careful. Since his sneak attack on Whitebeard failed, he was getting ready for another attempt. If WB fodder pirates had haki, then they should have easily overwhelmed the marines since only their vice admirals and above had haki. Too many of the pirates on that battle field were falling to random attacks like Akainu's magma shower. You'd think that if any of them had COO we would have seen them dodging or predicting the path of the magma fists.
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I also agree with ryuksgelus, just to pot my vote in.
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And how the hell are they going to do that if Kizaru can just sit there and laugh as nothing happens when they fruitlessly attack him? They couldn't. This scene is clearly an indicator that Whitebeard's commanders, in numbers, have what it takes to make even an Admiral sweat and can't just brush them off. That clearly points to Haki. When you consider that Oda had been repeatedly emphasizing people using Haki and what it does to Logia users for a while and in the post-war arc going on to inform us that every VA has it and giving us a detailed explanation on its usage, it does so even more.
Except he didn't sweat. Kizaru acted his normal nonchalant self no different than when he encountered the SN. Later Curiel attacks Akainu to no effect and Akainu solo most of them and comes out ok. I'd hope nearly a dozen guys at minimum M.Trio level(with more experience) with Haki backing up Vista&Marco would annihilate even an Admiral. Even with whatever defensive measures they take against Haki users. Reading it I go with the anime's interpretation where all they could do is force Akainu to continually reform as he got more backup dividing the DC's attention. That makes the DC seem less weak and Admirals less godly in my mind. Only person who made Kizaru sweat was Ben Beckman. WB's commander suck if they all know Haki yet Ben Beckman alone is considered more threatening. More plausible to me that on top of being a stronger opponent overall he also has Haki where they simply do not.
Because I don't really care that much about Doflamingo, but arguing that the WB division commanders don't have it comes off as extremely strange to me and acting as if Haki is some sort of ultra-super-rare gift of god bothers me quite a bit.
Acting like its some skill people just pay 100 gold to a trainer once they hit level 50 sounds strange to me. You don't care about Don but that was what the majority of my post was about. My point was that with training a DF, natural fighting ability, and Haki simultaneously may be more difficult a task than many are acknowledging and thats why many high tiers don't show signs of it at all. Now spending years on the same crew with WB is a good reason to have Haki. Don't think its unlikely the DC at all just not a certainty and the case for them having it is weak excluding being with WB.
Probably because they train the wrong way. Every single person on Amazon Lily down to the fodderest of fodder has Haki and don't give me some nonsense about genes; it's a skill like any other, people inflate its rarity/difficulty way too much. Train right, and you can learn it. That's the One Piece way, not that you have to somehow have been lucky enough to have the predisposition or whatever. You need proper guidance or get lucky, not frikkin' both to even have a chance at being able to use Haki at some point in time. It shouldn't be something people are restricted from having just by being who they are.
Wasn't making that extreme argument at all so don't know why you're bringing it up. I figured Haki is as natural to Amazons as swimming and breathing under water is to Fishman and that everyone there is like Aisa. Clearly the Navy can train you for it. Why would fodder Amazons be able to use it almost naturally but not mid level marines?
I'd like to flip that around, why the hell should only the members who are important to the story get Haki? You're inflating its rarity and difficulty beyond what was ever really implied. Guys who don't get screen time but that we know are really, really strong and respected should have Haki because it befits them. To me that was the whole point of Oda mentioning that all the Vice Admirals wield it. They shouldn't be lacking such a useful tool for combat and that even is the ONLY way to even be able to fight against Logia and perhaps some other DF users beyond being ultra-lucky and somehow having access to their natural weakness in a form with which you can attack them with it.
How is that so when Rayleigh says people can train their entire lives and never obtain it. I doubt he was talking about smucks who wouldn't even make it in the New World. No most likely there are people familiar with Haki and try to obtain it and just can't. Teach could possibly possibly be a prime example.
Why? These are the top dozen or so leaders of a military unit with millions of soldiers across the world. Telling us the VA have Haki just confirms Coby is on his way to the top. Getting anything more out of that is just your imagination.
There are only a handful of Logias in the entire world. I doubt its a real concern for 99.9% of fighters to train to deal with them. Crocodile and Ace are the only two most pirates would have a chance to encounter. Any possible future Water, Earth, Metal, whatever Logia's we encounter will probably be epic characters most people won't want to fuck with.
Jimbei: "The commanders…!! What a great help!!"
That's coming from a person who's pretty damn strong himself. It was also the commanders that got the most screen time and attention of Whitebeard's crew in the war, they were shown fighting powerful people quite a lot of the time. Just the fact that they're the core crew of Whitebeard of all people should tell you how powerful they are.
No you're extrapolating a lot from very vague info. Help is help and they are WB's best. They are WB's crew everybody else is just an extra so I don't get that point of them being shown the most at all. They were never shown doing anything particularly impressive when against somebody we know is powerful. Atomosk toyed with, Curiel shot his gun at Akainu and Moriah, Chain chomp wasn't killed by Kizaru, rest owned high tier looking fodder.
I'm telling you that signs point to Crocodile actually having been stopped from attacking Whitebeard again and was pushed away from the Moby Dick. That suggests that he wasn't exactly going around being lolinvincible, probably because Haki isn't so rare it's almost non-existent even in the New World like you seem to think. If Amazon Lily fodder can have it, what's stopping the division commanders?
And I'm telling you that isn't a sign and you're just grasping at straws. Everybody was somewhere else the next time we saw them. Smoker was shown to be lolinvicible all throughout the war freaking out when kicked by Hancock. Crocodile was able to save Ace because he had little to fear from entering the plaza by himself. Hundreds of soldiers couldn't stop Ace when he was freed. Oda did not include haki using fodder stopping Croc and then exclude them at every other point in the war. Haki was as rare on that battlefield as DF were.
There is a lot of clues that Logias are in fact still pretty OP even in the NW. Crocodile being a warlord is a good one. Its is quite possible he traveled mostly unhindered until WB put him in his place. Same with Ace because Teach's comments imply few people ever touched him.
You went from arguing about DC to arguing that even fodder WB pirates know Haki yet remarked my view was inflated? I really see nothing wrong with Haki being as exclusive as every other skill in the series from DF to Rokushiki to Okama Kempo.
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Except he didn't sweat.
You thought I meant it literally? As I read it he acknowledged them as a powerful force, in his own way of course. They were confident they could break past and apparently did so just fine without them being injured. Something then seems incredibly wrong with the idea that Kizaru could sit there and do absolutely nothing and they'd be utterly useless against him, literally not being able to as much as lay a finger on him. Rather I see it as something suggesting that these guys, highly respected fighters in the world's greatest pirate crew, actually have something that can hurt an Admiral, that makes it so that he can't just shrug them off because he's a lolLogia… like Haki.
I figured Haki is as natural to Amazons as swimming and breathing under water is to Fishman and that everyone there is like Aisa
So they're all granted it like some god-given gift and it's not a product of proper training and hard work. Gotcha. Except that I disagree because that doesn't sound One Piece to me at all. Seems much more likely that they know Haki because using it is ingrained into their warrior culture, they are taught to manifest it properly since childhood and can thus do it. It's not genes, it's not fate, it's not some gift from above; it's proper training and working hard for it and consequently achieving it. THAT seems to fit far better into the general mold of this series.
How is that so when Rayleigh says people can train their entire lives and never obtain it.
Because you're acting like there're maybe 15-20 people in the whole fucking New World that have it as far as pirates go. That sounds ridiculous in my ears. He never implied that it's that rare. It's a skill that you can train to achieve. Train right, be taught by the right person, and you can bring it out just fine. If you do something wrong though, chances are you'll never succeed which is probably what Rayleigh was referring to. It could also have to do with mindset and whatnot of course which in the case of Teach as you mentioned could be a possibility, but I would see that as more a result of his mentality not letting him really learn it. Ray said something like "To not doubt… that is strength!" which gave me the impression that you need to get the right 'mindset' down so to speak which someone like Teach who is villainous in nature in a couple of ways may not have been capable of doing. But that shouldn't hold back others.
No you're extrapolating a lot from very vague info. Help is help and they are WB's best.
Being Whitebeard's best - the best of the strongest pirate crew in the world - makes it clear that they are extremely highly regarded. We don't really need any clearer info than that. They were the overall most respected fighters on the side of the pirates in general in a war between the mightiest of the mighty.
Everybody was somewhere else the next time we saw them.
But everyone is not a Logia who was specifically shown being held back by weapons that normally shouldn't have an effect on him and was later shown having been pushed back away from the man who was the only one he cared about. With this being an arc where Oda was often showcasing Haki in various ways and forms, subtly or not-so-subtly, I don't see why this couldn't also have been a hint.
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Wow Ryuksgelus, I never once even entertained the thought that Teech could possibly be one of those people who just can't bring out their Haki. It would add such an interesting layer to him, also it would partially answer a question many of us thought we completely knew. Sure the Darkness fruit has an edge over Haki in that actual touch negates the fruit, but it would be so awesome to find a back story where Teech is desperately trying to use Haki like many of the people around him.
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I think the problem some people have is the way Rayleigh built up learning haki as really hard. Let's keep in mind that this is a shounen series. The top characters do the "impossible" all the time. This is just another example of it. All three had the teachers and the time to learn haki.
Yeah, in a year and half of training and only to learn the basics. He needed another 6 months to properly learn the 3 types of haki. Fodder or not is is hard to learn. Try to go to the gym for a year and half and see if you can achieve a ripped body. It won't be an easy task dude, same with Haki.
And how is it expected for Sanji to learn haki when he didn't have a teacher? Luffy had a teacher and still took him a 18 months while Sanji had to run away from queers.
Ivankov and the others could've taught him. I doubt he ran away from them the entire 2 years. I find it strange Sanji couldn't learn Haki on an island full of strong martial artists who specialize in kicks.
I don't think Sanji and Zoro have haki yet. This is pure speculation, though. You can argue all you want, but you won't reach a conclusion until Oda shows us. It could go either way. I personally hope they don't have it yet, because that would give room for a lot of further development.
I totally disagree with that. Whether or not they mastered it is one thing. But, no way they didn't learn something.
