General 'Haki' Discussion

sanji499

Our assumptions are based on the fact that Mihawk has not shown haki at all. The second Mihawk shows haki even a little we will agree with you lol.

You forget that when mihawk asked what luffy's goal was he said that in order to become pirate king luffy would have to become stronger than him. Which means that all the yonkou's who are at the top of the pirate world are stronger than mihawk. And since shanks is a swordsman with one hand and is stronger than the greatest swordsman in the world we can only assume that this is because mihawk does not have haki.

Mihawk agreed to teach Zoro the way of the sword, he never agreed to teach him haki. Whether mihawk has haki or not does not change this fact and mihawk is not one to give out gifts for free.

12 years ago, Shanks and Mihawk were rival. When Red Hair saved Luffy from the sea king, he proved that he could use it perfectly (conqueror). We know that Shanks and Mihawk were equals and rivals at that time and Haki was mandatory for a draw. When Mihawk visited the Yonku, both did not even seem intimidated by each other. IMO, they are still equal.

I think Yonku is not only individual strenght but more importantly strong allies and flawless team work. When Mihawk and Kizaru attacked WB, the Yonku did not even move a muscle because he knew Jozu and Marco would stop them. He had total faith in them. It is more about tramwork than individula strenght.

When Luffy unleashed the "conqueror" during Marineford, Mihawk was not even surprised and he knew what it was.

Coruscation

Our assumptions are based on the fact that Mihawk has not shown haki at all. The second Mihawk shows haki even a little we will agree with you lol.

You forget that when mihawk asked what luffy's goal was he said that in order to become pirate king luffy would have to become stronger than him. Which means that all the yonkou's who are at the top of the pirate world are stronger than mihawk. And since shanks is a swordsman with one hand and is stronger than the greatest swordsman in the world we can only assume that this is because mihawk does not have haki.

None of this really makes any sense at all =/

Mihawk hasn't shown Haki, no. But that does not mean it's reasonable to assume he can't use it. He simply hasn't been shown to use it is all. Do you really think it befits the world's greatest swordsman to lack such a useful ability as Haki, that EVERY other top-tier has by the looks of it? Why would Whitebeard's 5th commander, a swordsman who is weaker than Mihawk, have Haki but Mihawk himself not?

No, it could just be that Shanks has stronger Haki than Mihawk, and for that matter we don't even know if Shanks IS stronger than Mihawk.

Nectar

@Elemental:

I wonder whether Zoro have mastered haki or not.

He's of a completely different level from Hodi, but, if that's only his natural power, he would be so much incredible… I believe he mastered haki, even if i've got no proof

I feel like saying Ussop will certainly be the last to master haki, because : "The Power not to doubt, that is strength". But, i'm not really sure about this, he doesn't doubt when he's in danger... only in order to make laugh...

If Mihawk and Ivankov can use Haki, Zoro and Sanji should too. No reason why they couldn't learn it like Luffy.

Rubber Fist Luffy

@Nectar:

If Mihawk and Ivankov can use Haki, Zoro and Sanji should too. No reason why they couldn't learn it like Luffy.

When did Ivankov used haki?
Not trying to disagree, I just don't remember him using Haki.

Coruscation

He hasn't been shown using Haki, it's up in the air as to whether he has it or not.

And people have to remember that Sanji was not "trained" by Ivankov as Luffy & Zoro were by Mihawk & Rayleigh. He was fighting the 99 (100? I'm not sure) Okama chefs, and running from them when he was not apparently, in order to gain their recipes of the "Attack Cuisine". Ivankov outright teaching Sanji Haki does sound a little far-fetched, with this information in mind. At most it would be that Sanji awakened it on his own and Iva just sort of nudged him in the right direction to be able to more actively manifest it, or something.

fistsofrage

@Corucation Of course marines will share haki info with other marines. But for pirates the knowledge of haki is scarce and only those at yonkou level or very capable new world crews even know about it. If such knowledge was easily obtained then not only mihawk but crocodile, jinbei, kuma, and doflamingo would all have it. You make it sound like mihawk is some special being but he's just a strong pirate.

@sanji499 What makes you think that scaring the sea monster away wasn't the first time Shanks ever showed an apptitude for COC? And you're even assuming that he had mastered the basics of haki at that time.

sufjan

hodi wil prob have haki

Rubber Fist Luffy

@sufjan:

hodi wil prob have haki

I don't really think that would have a major effect in a battle against any of the monster trio.

sanji499

When I think about it Mihawk was able to fight equally against someone who was worthy of Roger's hat the pirate king.

fistsofrage

Apart from Jinbei and Hancock, The shichibukai are a group of pirates who went to the new world and got defeated. The fact that they all lack crews proves that (although some of them formed organizations after their defeat). And most of them were present when the pirate king died which means they were probably aiming for his seat. And the factor that had the biggest role in their defeat was that they all lacked haki. Mihawk is a part of that group. I'm guessing the only reason the government trusts those pirates at all is that they know that they want revenge on the yonkou for killing their crews. I'm not sure what part kuma plays in all this since his revolutionary role twists things.

Rubber Fist Luffy

@fistsofrage:

Apart from Jinbei and Hancock, The shichibukai are a group of pirates who went to the new world and got defeated. The fact that they all lack crews proves that (although some of them formed organizations after their defeat). And most of them were present when the pirate king died which means they were probably aiming for his seat. And the factor that had the biggest role in their defeat was that they all lacked haki. Mihawk is a part of that group. I'm guessing the only reason the government trusts those pirates at all is that they know that they want revenge on the yonkou for killing their crews. I'm not sure what part kuma plays in all this since his revolutionary role twists things.

Mihawk is way above moria or croc, and we don't know much about him or Doflamingo.

sanji499

@Rubber:

Mihawk is way above moria or croc, and we don't know much about him or Doflamingo.

As a matter of fact, Mihawk never lost to Shanks and there are no rumours of him being ever defeated. We still don't know his bounty. It must be pretty big.

I think it is hinted during WB and Shanks conversation that Luffy vs Blackbeard and Zoro vs Mihawk could be the last battles at the end of GL.

KicksCertainSwordman

@Coruscation:

He hasn't been shown using Haki, it's up in the air as to whether he has it or not.

And people have to remember that Sanji was not "trained" by Ivankov as Luffy & Zoro were by Mihawk & Rayleigh. He was fighting the 99 (100? I'm not sure) Okama chefs, and running from them when he was not apparently, in order to gain their recipes of the "Attack Cuisine". Ivankov outright teaching Sanji Haki does sound a little far-fetched, with this information in mind. At most it would be that Sanji awakened it on his own and Iva just sort of nudged him in the right direction to be able to more actively manifest it, or something.

Yup, now we see the plus side of Sanji. Cant agree more with you, dude. Oda definitely got something under his sleeve for Sanji. But he just doesnt want to give it directly such as luffy and zoro. He love to tease Sanji so much… and us too.

blendingur69

@sanji499:

As a matter of fact, Mihawk never lost to Shanks and there are no rumours of him being ever defeated. We still don't know his bounty. It must be pretty big.

I think it is hinted during WB and Shanks conversation that Luffy vs Blackbeard and Zoro vs Mihawk could be the last battles at the end of GL.

Yes but you still can't just state that he never did lose to Shanks… I also think that Mihawk respect Shanks a great deal so that's what I'm going on!

Nectar

@Rubber:

When did Ivankov used haki?
Not trying to disagree, I just don't remember him using Haki.

He didn't as far as I remember, but it would be strange if someone as powerful as him couldn't use it. At the very least he'll know about it and could teach Sanji a thing or two.

@Coruscation:

He hasn't been shown using Haki, it's up in the air as to whether he has it or not.

And people have to remember that Sanji was not "trained" by Ivankov as Luffy & Zoro were by Mihawk & Rayleigh. He was fighting the 99 (100? I'm not sure) Okama chefs, and running from them when he was not apparently, in order to gain their recipes of the "Attack Cuisine". Ivankov outright teaching Sanji Haki does sound a little far-fetched, with this information in mind. At most it would be that Sanji awakened it on his own and Iva just sort of nudged him in the right direction to be able to more actively manifest it, or something.

It's possible Sanji learned haki indirecty, but I could see him throwing away his pride to learn from Ivankov like Zoro.

blendingur69

@Nectar:

He didn't as far as I remember, but it would be strange if someone as powerful as him couldn't use it. At the very least he'll know about it and could teach Sanji a thing or two.

It's possible Sanji learned haki indirecty, but I could see him throwing away his pride to learn from Ivankov like Zoro.

I still think that people are underestimating the time and effort it just simply takes to beat haki into someone! … Like with Luffy he learned it in 1 and a half year to everyones surprise I'm sure and he was taught by Reyleigh himself!! and reyleigh even said that he would "try" to beat it into him in these two years!! see for yourselfs: http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-16/one-piece/chapter-597.html

Just_Gabe

Lol @the guy who doesn't know who gandalfi is. He's the little bro of the good wizard from LOTR, duh!

And you're guy are plain wrong, Ivankov has never used Haki and most likely doesn't know how to, hence the possibility of Sanji knowing Haki is minimum. Same with Zoro.

@Nectar:

If Mihawk and Ivankov can use Haki, Zoro and Sanji should too. No reason why they couldn't learn it like Luffy.

Actually there is a reason: it was never implied, foreshadowed or hinted that they would learn Haki before the timeskip.

Coruscation

dfor pirates the knowledge of haki is scarce and only those at yonkou level or very capable new world crews even know about it.

Mihawk -is- basically at Emperor level, so if that's the requirement then great.

But you can't seriously think that Mihawk never learned of Haki throughout all his travels and fights and whatnot. The man's 40+ and holds one of the most prestigous, greatest titles in all the world. Haki is not as rare as you think it is.

Stylishman

@Just_Gabe:

Lol @the guy who doesn't know who gandalfi is. He's the little bro of the good wizard from LOTR, duh!

And you're guy are plain wrong, Ivankov has never used Haki and most likely doesn't know how to, hence the possibility of Sanji knowing Haki is minimum. Same with Zoro.

Actually there is a reason: it was never implied, foreshadowed or hinted that they would learn Haki before the timeskip.

Yet one can safely assume that the STRONGEST swordsman in the world can use haki. akainu said that vista can use haki, i think it's highly likely that mihawk can use it!

Myu

First of all, there is a huge unidentified feeling in me wants to attack and eat their brains out the people who thinks Mihawk doesn't know how to use Haki.

What was it's name, the arc which Luffy defeated Rob Lucci, power levels were like 2000 Sanji, Zoro and 4000 Luffy. I think that is too much of a gap. If we think Luffy right now is 8000, Zoro should be 7000 and Sanji should be 6700.

And I don't have a doubt that Zoro do know how to use CoC. If i take it as that, why wouldn't Mihawk teach him how to use CoA. I mean if you don't know that, you are an open target to a Logia user. Mihawk should know that too, and his apprentice has to have this skill.

Bubblegum

@Stylishman:

Yet one can safely assume that the STRONGEST swordsman in the world can use haki. akainu said that vista can use haki, i think it's highly likely that mihawk can use it!

When did Akainu implied this. I didn't remember anything about that. But i agree too it is very like that Mihawk knoes how to use it and he might or might have not passed the knowledge to zoro - i'm betting he did. There's a big probability that zoro already had haki before - anybody remember his asura attack. That could be his haki unrefined.

Btw, i can't get off the feeling that Zoro had actually beaten mihawk somewhere in the two years timeskip… ahahaha.

Bubblegum

the only reason Mihawk never used haki was because there was any need for it. he could nearly breeze through all his fight with only a short knife. And for the rest that he couldn't, he would use his sword. There was hardly anybody that is strong enough to oppose him. he is the strongest swordsman in the world. And i agree to the people that said being the the greatest swordsman in the world he MUST know haki. At least mastered it. Being the greatest at something is NOT an easy feat or which you can achieve without skill and in the case of One piece world - HAKI.

But whether he trained Zoro in haki is a different question - although i think he did. Just think about it. Luffy is suppose to be the strongest fighter here. If Zoro could defeat Hodi without using haki where else luffy needed haki to defeat decken… doesn't that saying that Zoro is stronger than luffy when he would eventually learn haki - which he would at some point later once he claimed the title strongest swordsman in the world. Then what? Should Zoro be the captain then?

So yeah, i think right now, zoro already knows haki. and it was mihawak who taught it to him.

blendingur69

@Bubblegum:

When did Akainu implied this. I didn't remember anything about that. But i agree too it is very like that Mihawk knoes how to use it and he might or might have not passed the knowledge to zoro - i'm betting he did. There's a big probability that zoro already had haki before - anybody remember his asura attack. That could be his haki unrefined.

Btw, i can't get off the feeling that Zoro had actually beaten mihawk somewhere in the two years timeskip… ahahaha.

Akainu said it here: http://www.mangareader.net/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.html

Regular

@fistsofrage:

You forget that when mihawk asked what luffy's goal was he said that in order to become pirate king luffy would have to become stronger than him. Which means that all the yonkou's who are at the top of the pirate world are stronger than mihawk. And since shanks is a swordsman with one hand and is stronger than the greatest swordsman in the world we can only assume that this is because mihawk does not have haki.

He meant that because he himself is a pirate. I thought that was very clear.

@fistsofrage:

Apart from Jinbei and Hancock, The shichibukai are a group of pirates who went to the new world and got defeated. The fact that they all lack crews proves that (although some of them formed organizations after their defeat). And most of them were present when the pirate king died which means they were probably aiming for his seat. And the factor that had the biggest role in their defeat was that they all lacked haki. Mihawk is a part of that group. I'm guessing the only reason the government trusts those pirates at all is that they know that they want revenge on the yonkou for killing their crews. I'm not sure what part kuma plays in all this since his revolutionary role twists things.

I like how that statement came from the nowhere, backing up with what facts? YES, Moria and Croc got defeated.. but so what? Does that mean that Dofla or Mihawk did as well? So by your logic it means that a person w/o a crew has lost a battle. Which I dont find very rational or logical.
A lot of your points are made up (defeat, goals, haki).

@Myu:

What was it's name, the arc which Luffy defeated Rob Lucci, power levels were like 2000 Sanji, Zoro and 4000 Luffy. I think that is too much of a gap. If we think Luffy right now is 8000, Zoro should be 7000 and Sanji should be 6700..

First of all.. NO, that's not how it was. It was the enemies (CP9) that had that douriki level. Not the straw hats.

Bubblegum

@blendingur69:

Akainu said it here: http://www.mangareader.net/103-47005-7/one-piece/chapter-574.html

Oh, thanks. hmm… then it's all but confirm that Mihawak must know haki too And Zoro knows it too.

blendingur69

@Myu:

First of all, there is a huge unidentified feeling in me wants to attack and eat their brains out the people who thinks Mihawk doesn't know how to use Haki.

What was it's name, the arc which Luffy defeated Rob Lucci, power levels were like 2000 Sanji, Zoro and 4000 Luffy. I think that is too much of a gap. If we think Luffy right now is 8000, Zoro should be 7000 and Sanji should be 6700.

And I don't have a doubt that Zoro do know how to use CoC. If i take it as that, why wouldn't Mihawk teach him how to use CoA. I mean if you don't know that, you are an open target to a Logia user. Mihawk should know that too, and his apprentice has to have this skill.

Take it easy dude, whats with the murderous intents!?!? Yeah I could agree with the fact that Mihawk can use Haki but I don't find it that it would be easy to teach zoro just out of the blue haki in 2 YEARS since he hasn't even shown a slightest bit of an affinity for it and COC even less likely, after all if you just take a short look at this: http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-16/one-piece/chapter-597.html
here rayleigh himself is intending to beat the BASICS of haki in to Luffy in 2 years, but say's that normally the time period would be to short BUUT his dispositon is STRONG!!!! So my point is that I don't think that Zoro and Sanji have learnt haki cause first of all neither of them had shown a clear dispositon towards haki (everything you could come up with about that would just be speculations) for them to learn haki in 2 years is just not realistic in my book!!!!

blendingur69

@Bubblegum:

Oh, thanks. hmm… then it's all but confirm that Mihawak must know haki too And Zoro knows it too.

NOOO, it's not given that Zoro knows it too if you wanna know why that is my opinion than I just posted it in the general haki discussion! http://apforums.net/showthread.php?t=19200&page=127

Myu

@blendingur69:

Take it easy dude, whats with the murderous intents!?!? Yeah I could agree with the fact that Mihawk can use Haki but I don't find it that it would be easy to teach zoro just out of the blue haki in 2 YEARS since he hasn't even shown a slightest bit of an affinity for it and COC even less likely, after all if you just take a short look at this: http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-16/one-piece/chapter-597.html
here rayleigh himself is intending to beat the BASICS of haki in to Luffy in 2 years, but say's that normally the time period would be to short BUUT his dispositon is STRONG!!!! So my point is that I don't think that Zoro and Sanji have learnt haki cause first of all neither of them had shown a clear dispositon towards haki (everything you could come up with about that would just be speculations) for them to learn haki in 2 years is just not realistic in my book!!!!

In my book what's realistic is Zoro having Haki. His CoO might be weaker than Luffy but if, we think about CoA… Zoro is a fortune. If disposition isn't divided to each haki types, we have right to assume Zoro's disposition is as strong as Luffy. And if, disposition is divided to each haki type, I can even say his CoA disposition is stronger than Luffy's. Zoro didn't show us anything about preventing movements so I can't say the same about his CoO.

The reason why Zoro's only CoA or general disposition is strong can be seen throught the all manga. I remember him training at Skypiea arc under cold temperatures. Him cutting steel is a evidence of it's own that his disposition is strong. And let's remember Zoro taking all the damage Luffy had into his own and still standing still. I won't accept Zoro's disposition isn't the same league as Luffy's. Even if manga states it otherwise I will see it as a flaw in Oda's side.

And in Zoro's case, he probably didn't needed to learn CoC. Which would gave him more time to focus on training his other Colors.

Same things can be said about Sanji too. Imagine while he is asleep, Okamas trying to ambush him with Okama wears He must have been always on alarmed. His fear might have awakened his Haki. That is the most likely scenario. Sanji described his time with Okamas as Hell. And the all running process in some way may have teached him CoA too. Maybe Ivankoc directly.

I survived the buster call

On the question of whether Zoro is as strong as Luffy—though I could be misremembering, seems like I read somewhere an old old quote from Oda stating Luffy and Zoro were pretty evenly matched. No idea if that has changed since then though.

Which brings me to the next issue:
On the question of Luffy’s Captaincy being based on being strongest—Nowhere have I ever read in the manga that the captain must be the strongest on the crew (though I'm betting on most crews, being at the least perceived to be the strongest would be a good way to deter mutiny–this doesn't apply to the SHs because of their bonds to each other and their choice to join for their own reasons.) If you have evidence to the contrary, please do share links and quotes to support your theory. I’m always interested.

Lastly, even if it were the case that Zoro were the same strength (or even stronger, for the sake of argument, though I DO NOT believe this to be the case) the plain fact of the matter is that Zoro has no desire to be a captain. The SHs have never been a top down power structure–each of them has their own much valued contribution to make to the crew as a whole--Luffy's dream was to be Pirate King—this sort of by definition requires that he be the captain. Zoro's dream has never involved something that required him to captain a crew.

All of this to say that even if Zoro has learned or does learn Haki in the manga at some point, it will not in any way invalidate Luffy’s position as the captain. Do I think Zoro has haki? Not sure if he has been trained in it as of yet, but since it has been clearly defined as being based on your strength of will, and Zoro has nothing if not extreme strength of will, then I think it’s a foregone conclusion that eventually he will use it. I also tend to agree with those who say he has already shown bits of it, much like Luffy has, when he heard the breath of things in Alabasta (or whatever the phrase was) etc. Same applies to Sanji in my book—somewhere along the way they will both acquire the skill to use haki. They may not attain all three—though I agree showing Rayleigh having it is a good indicator that they probably will—but they will definitely have haki in some form or another.

fistsofrage

@Regular:

I like how that statement came from the nowhere, backing up with what facts? YES, Moria and Croc got defeated.. but so what? Does that mean that Dofla or Mihawk did as well? So by your logic it means that a person w/o a crew has lost a battle. Which I dont find very rational or logical.
A lot of your points are made up (defeat, goals, haki).

My logic is pretty sound and has a clear flow. And since you haven't mentioned any solid evidence to dispute my theory, it seems like you disagree with it because you don't like it. Pirates have crews it's pretty simple logic. Their bounties prove that they must have had crews at one point in time. I doubt that mihawk has been able to sail through the grandline by himself since the beginning.

Nectar

I think Zoro and Sanji know haki because it seems like the natural progression to increase their strength, like Luffy. I also think it would be weird if only Luffy had haki when entering the New World.

Last reason I have is opportunity. Luffy was taught haki by Rayleigh, a legendary pirate. Zoro was trained by the strongest swordsman in the world. Sanji spent two years with on an island full of powerful kicking martial artists, the strongest being a friend of Luffy. There isn't a better place and time for those three characters to learn haki without the story being halted or slowed down for a "haki arc".

@fistsofrage:

My first theory is that Luffy is the only one with haki right now. Why? Because Oda has blatantly shown Luffy using haki all over the place since the time skip ended and none of the others have shown an iota of haki.

Luffy had more opportunities to show off his haki and we know Rayleigh taught him. Oda isn't going to reveal everything new about the Strawhats in once lump. He's spacing it out to keep the series interesting.

@blendingur69:

Take it easy dude, whats with the murderous intents!?!? Yeah I could agree with the fact that Mihawk can use Haki but I don't find it that it would be easy to teach zoro just out of the blue haki in 2 YEARS since he hasn't even shown a slightest bit of an affinity for it and COC even less likely, after all if you just take a short look at this: http://www.mangareader.net/103-56928-16/one-piece/chapter-597.html
here rayleigh himself is intending to beat the BASICS of haki in to Luffy in 2 years, but say's that normally the time period would be to short BUUT his dispositon is STRONG!!!! So my point is that I don't think that Zoro and Sanji have learnt haki cause first of all neither of them had shown a clear dispositon towards haki (everything you could come up with about that would just be speculations) for them to learn haki in 2 years is just not realistic in my book!!!!

Luffy, Zoro, AND Sanji are "monsters". If Luffy can learn haki in two years so can they.

Phoenix Zoan

I dont really see Luffy soloing all 3 Admirals in the future when the SH eventually face the marines sometime near the series end. The monster trio will end up getting paired each with one of the 3 Admirals during that time so all 3 will have some degree of haki knowledge to be able to damage the logia Admirals.

fistsofrage

@Phoenix:

I dont really see Luffy soloing all 3 Admirals in the future when the SH eventually face the marines sometime near the series end. The monster trio will end up getting paired each with one of the 3 Admirals during that time so all 3 will have some degree of haki knowledge to be able to damage the logia Admirals.

It's true that might happen but Luffy was crazy enough to take on all 3 admirals without haki so he might try it again in the future depending on the situation. And I don't think the strawhats will ever have to face all 3 of them at once anyway especially since one of them is has taken Sengoku's position.

Coruscation

I'm sticking to Luffy vs. Akainu, Zoro vs. Kizaru and Sanji vs. the new Admiral. That sounds like the best possible line-up, to me. I hope Aokiji won't be defeated by the Strawhats; I see him as the Fleet Admiral at the end of the series.

Regular

@fistsofrage:

My logic is pretty sound and has a clear flow. And since you haven't mentioned any solid evidence to dispute my theory, it seems like you disagree with it because you don't like it. Pirates have crews it's pretty simple logic. Their bounties prove that they must have had crews at one point in time. I doubt that mihawk has been able to sail through the grandline by himself since the beginning.

First off, It's not because I didn't like your theory that I wrote my last post (even though I'm not a fan of it) but because I didn't think it made much sense at all.

I didn't write I had any evidence but I addressed the faults in your theory. You ruled out all options as to why they are shichibukai to begin with and gave everyone of them a similar background story; 'they lost to one of the four emperors in the NW before, because they don't have a crew now, so they became one of the schichibukai to get their revenge' and you even mentioned that they lost because they didn't posses haki.

To answer your question, there could've been other reasons for a crew to be missing, they could have disbanded themselves (Roger, Jinbe), a disease could have taken most of them out (Brook), maybe they killed them or left them as well. Or like you indicate they couldve lost (Croc) or got their whole crew killed (Moria). Heck, they don't even have to be a captain or a leader (Kuma).

So let me ask you, does this seem logical to you?
@fistsofrage:

Apart from Jinbei and Hancock, The shichibukai are a group of pirates who went to the new world and got defeated. The fact that they all lack crews proves that (although some of them formed organizations after their defeat). And most of them were present when the pirate king died which means they were probably aiming for his seat. And the factor that had the biggest role in their defeat was that they all lacked haki. Mihawk is a part of that group. I'm guessing the only reason the government trusts those pirates at all is that they know that they want revenge on the yonkou for killing their crews. I'm not sure what part kuma plays in all this since his revolutionary role twists things.

fistsofrage

It seems obvious that if a crew doesn't have at least one person with haki b4 they enter the new world they don't have much of a chance of succeeding. It's the most obvious reason for failure in the new world (not having haki). That's why it was important for Raleigh to teach at least luffy haki so that he could teach the others as they went along. It's pretty hard to find someone to teach haki, only the special few have trained it to a usable extent (and Raleigh and Garp are probably the best teachers in existence right now).

Up until awhile ago Luffy was fighting every shichibukai he came across and it seemed obvious that none of them had haki. If not for hancock's case I would have said none of them could use it. I'm sure Doflamingo doesn't have it (he couldn't hurt Crocodile), and Kuma obviously doesn't have it since he couldn't predict Zoro's attacks. The name "world's greatest swordsman" twists things, it makes you want to give him the haki attribute but he doesn't really seem to have it (he's just a "really good" swordsman with awesome senses).

@Regular: Kuma was a pirate/revolutionary, he was called violent kuma/tyrant and had a reputation for being ruthless. And yes my reasoning does seem logical and you'll have to tell me what's wrong with it. I said they probably lost to Yonkou because I'm not sure who else could have ended their dreams to become pirate king.

sanji499

@Coruscation:

I'm sticking to Luffy vs. Akainu, Zoro vs. Kizaru and Sanji vs. the new Admiral. That sounds like the best possible line-up, to me. I hope Aokiji won't be defeated by the Strawhats; I see him as the Fleet Admiral at the end of the series.

I think one of the few reasons Aokiji has to fight the straw hats is to stop them messing around. To be more precise, the straw hats are likely to disturb the world's balance by beating Yonkus and Schibukais.

Coruscation

It wouldn't be a bad reason for him to fight them, but I honestly don't think he will. Oda will see to that it's always other Marines that confront them. Just what I think, mainly since Aokiji isn't really a bad guy whereas there ARE quite a few Marines that you'd absolutely love to see getting their faces bashed in, so why not let Akainu, Kizaru, Onigumo & CO get what's coming to them while a good guy like Aokiji doesn't get beat half to death?

fistsofrage

@Coruscation:

I'm sticking to Luffy vs. Akainu, Zoro vs. Kizaru and Sanji vs. the new Admiral. That sounds like the best possible line-up, to me. I hope Aokiji won't be defeated by the Strawhats; I see him as the Fleet Admiral at the end of the series.

The marines might no longer exist at the end of the series lol. There's gonna be a world war remember?

Coruscation

I know (or do we really…? I'm not sure, but whatever) but my theory is that the Marines won't be straight-up eradicated, but rather the bad seeds rooted out and someone good and moral - like Aokiji - placed at the helm.

fistsofrage

@Coruscation:

I know (or do we really…? I'm not sure, but whatever) but my theory is that the Marines won't be straight-up eradicated, but rather the bad seeds rooted out and someone good and moral - like Aokiji - placed at the helm.

If Aokiji is currently the new fleet admiral he'll probably step down and Coby will take over.

Coruscation

Perhaps, but:

I think Akainu is the new FA,
Coby's dream is to be an Admiral.

Aokiji fits as FA for the end-of-series Marines IMO. He's an older, wisened guy who's actually quite moral.

fistsofrage

@Coruscation:

Perhaps, but:

I think Akainu is the new FA,

Coby's dream is to be an Admiral.

Aokiji fits as FA for the end-of-series Marines IMO. He's an older, wisened guy who's actually quite moral.

But if Akainu's the new Fleet Admiral he won't be able to hunt down pirates anymore…It'd take a lot of the fun and terror out of one piece. Aokiji's more laid back, he'd definitely make a better fleet admiral. The terror of Akainu's dark justice is what keeps pirates like BB on their toes. Akainu's license to kill would go to waste lol. And Coby's dream for now is to an Admiral, but he might get the courage to aim higher there's a lot of chapters left in the series.

Myu

@fistsofrage:

Up until awhile ago Luffy was fighting every shichibukai he came across and it seemed obvious that none of them had haki. If not for hancock's case I would have said none of them could use it. I'm sure Doflamingo doesn't have it (he couldn't hurt Crocodile), and Kuma obviously doesn't have it since he couldn't predict Zoro's attacks. The name "world's greatest swordsman" twists things, it makes you want to give him the haki attribute but he doesn't really seem to have it (he's just a "really good" swordsman with awesome senses).

You can't jump to that conclusion. If it were to be simple as that Whitebeard, Marco and Vista shouldn't have had Haki too. They had sliced the Admirals but none of them did get a direct hit.

Coruscation

The terror of Akainu's dark justice is what keeps pirates like BB on their toes.

Which is exactly why he should be in charge ofthe Marines. If Aokiji becomes the FA, the Marines will instead lean toward Aokiji's justice - more lenient, less ruthless, less absolute. That's not where the story needs to go with the WG being built up as quite sinister, and now the pirate age essentially being reborn. I'm sure the Gorousei would prefer someone like Akainu being in charge of the Marines now that they desperately need to quell a second uprising of pirates inspired by Whitebeard's final words, and it seems like they also intend to challenge the Emperors. Sounds more like something mr. EVIL PIRATE SCUM would be the man for rather than the lazy, laid-back Aokiji.

But that's just my opinion, of course. Akainu can still take matters into his own hands when he really needs to I'm sure, even if he's the FA. Sengoku stayed behind his desk but Akainu's personality type probably won't have him do the same.

Shergal

Lol at the guy saying Mihawk is a Sasuke wannabe that "wants revenge on the yonkou"..
Seriously dude?

Obviously, he is at least as strong as Shanks, if not more (said by himself "I've lost interest in fighting with you when you lost that arm" so they were more or less equals 12 years ago, and 2 years ago it seemed like he was stronger). He is probably the strongest of the seven Shichibukai BY FAR, and you say he is just a little fodder guy that got roflraped by some yonkou? bet he can beat the three of them in a 1v1.

Just_Gabe

@Stylishman:

Yet one can safely assume that the STRONGEST swordsman in the world can use haki. akainu said that vista can use haki, i think it's highly likely that mihawk can use it!

Yeah he does, but it is not that likely that Zoro knows Haki because again, Mihawk never mentioned anything, or it was simply never hinted.

In Sanji's case it is even less likely! since his training was based in running away from queers and fending them off. Nothing related to Haki.

fistsofrage

@Myu:

You can't jump to that conclusion. If it were to be simple as that Whitebeard, Marco and Vista shouldn't have had Haki too. They had sliced the Admirals but none of them did get a direct hit.

The admirals have haki and can predict attacks. They probably didn't really get cut but manipulated their bodies to make it look like it or did some form of COA. Crocodile doesn't have that ability. Doflamingo definitely doesn't have haki. And Whitebeard did serious damage to Akainu so I don't know where you were going with that.

fistsofrage

This post is deleted!

Coruscation

I really don't think you should say that Doflamingo "definitely doesn't have Haki" at this point. Sure, him cutting off Croc's head didn't do anything, but it looked to me as if he was just playing around with him anyway and it could also simply mean that he can't use Haki in conjunction with his DF ability rather than that he doesn't have it at all, if you see the distinction?

Doflamingo has proven himself strong enough that him having Haki is very plausible.