A certain Logia weakness (spoilers maybe…)

Gia Sado

Okay I'm not sure if there are other threads like this but maybe people could just listen to my theory. Okay, here it goes, I remember back when the straw hats just made it to alabasta, at the time, smoker was geting ready to attack ace, but didn't get the chance to because luffy hit him unexpectedly in the back. My theory is if luffy or anybody was fast enough, they could hit somebody unexpectedly that is a logia too.

Edit: I guess what im trying to say that maybe you have to be fast enough to hit a logia or faster that Van auger's speeding bullets.

Hinscher

or that was a plot hole just for comedy effect

cause pretty sure Ace was not i'm sure able to react quick when he was shot by auger. That was a quck shot.

Gia Sado

Maybe, but smoker didn't expect it.

As for ace it was right in front of him when he was shot.

igetownd

Although comic, this actually may be a foreshadow of how physical force can be used to beat logias.

Logia users can't normally be hit by solid objects. But that does not exempt them from the effects of force and momentum. Luffy crashed into Smoker, who in turn crashed into Ace. This is like using a fan to blow away smoke. If you try to punch smoke, your fists will go through. However, if you cause wind, you can cause the smoke to move.

Luffy used his Rocket to slam into Smoker and Ace. This action caused Luffy to be a human projection of force. Even if Smoker is not affected by punches, if hit head on with a full body, he'll get hit.

I think some logias are less affected by this phenomenon: Ice (it's technically solid, but Aokiji can become mist), and Stone. Aokiji can get hit, but he can force himself to stop by freezing the ground around him. If there is a stone logia, this would also be the case, since wind can't blow away stones easily.

BATTYU44

Where was it stated that Logia defenses were automatic?

Yangzter027

It wasn't atleast i dont think so..it said somethin more like being able ta turn into your element as a reflex…

Zkaiser

Only Croc and Aokiji have been shown to have the defensive reflex. So in theory if you are fast enough you could beat a Logia. Nice find, Gia Sado!!

Yangzter027

So maybe…Kizaru can hurt logia! since he kicks at ta spped of light...:wassat:

Zkaiser

@Yangzter027:

So maybe…Kizaru can hurt logia! since he kicks at ta spped of light...:wassat:

That's probably why he didn't seem too worried when he thought he was a logia.

Yangzter027

Then again…if he could hit Logia...he wouldn't need ta blind Hawkin's and just kick him since he(kizaru) could hurt hawkins anyways

Gia Sado

Well all i remember is the fact that paramecias have their devil fruits always turned "on" but Logias have to turn "on" theirs before the know what is going to happen, implying that fact that if you get them before the turn it "on" you can hit them.

igetownd

Thinking about the Ace-Smoker confrontation, wouldn't they have their abilities ready from the start? To say that their abilities are turned off shouldn't be correct.

Also, I don't want to be a prick, but the theory of speed defeating logias is very familiar…

Ryuksgelus

I thought it was common knowledge you can hit a Logia user if they don't expect it or you're too fast for them to react.

Isn't that how Enel was defeated? Luffy Golden rifle came in to fast for him to transform into lightning.

Thats how I envisioned the likes of Shanks owning a Logia user. Somebody like Croc or Eneru would simply start bleeding before they knew what hit or cut them.

undead_assault

hmmm, wait! What chapter explain that Logia users are automatically turn into their element when they get hit?

igetownd

Actually, wouldn't Brooke beat logias, since his Hanauta Sanchou Yahazugiri hits without the opponent realizing it? J/k, that won't happen because logias have to be hit with extreme force to receive a blow.

Zkaiser

But what if he blinded Hawkins as a saftey precaution?

undead_assault

hmmm, or just to show off his ability

Yangzter027

Kizaru is kinda cocky…oh well now we got two logia users who can directly attack other logias..

King_Ty

@Yangzter027:

So maybe…Kizaru can hurt logia! since he kicks at ta spped of light...:wassat:

not really. I mean if your a logia and you see Kizaru in front of you, you better have automated you logia or then you diserve to get kicked

Captain Shmeckie

Actually, several characters have remarked that logias in general just have attacks pass through them. It's pretty much the norm in OP, at this point.

@Hinscher:

or that was a plot hole just for comedy effect

cause pretty sure Ace was not i'm sure able to react quick when he was shot by auger. That was a quck shot.

ace still manage to avoid his hat from the auger's head shot.see his hand in a split second :D
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/440/13/

Gorlom

@Gia:

Maybe, but smoker didn't expect it.

As for ace it was right in front of him when he was shot.

Yeah and then Luffy and smoker crashed into Ace who still didn't turn elemental form (even though he had time to facefault) and flew with them through several walls.

And how about in the coverstory when Ace was shot from the back?

Come on it was either retconned or intended as comic relief.

Deltron 3030

I thought it was common knowledge you can hit a Logia user if they don't expect it or you're too fast for them to react.

No.

Isn't that how Enel was defeated? Luffy Golden rifle came in to fast for him to transform into lightning.

Or maybe because Luffy being rubber solidifies him i don't know maybe there was something about that in there you tell me jesus fucking christ are you kidding.

barkadat3p

Someone said it but I think its a reflex issue. It would mean that the top guys beat logia users using speed. (its pretty far-fetched to think that they always have a seastone with them for the sake of beating DF users)

Then again it can be turned on or off. It depends on how fast Auger and Ace are. If Auger's shots are faster than Ace then that means once the ability is turned on then the attacks would go through no matter how fast and where the attack comes from. If Ace is faster then it could be a reflex thing.

Deltron 3030

When was it ever said they turned it on or off?

barkadat3p

I didn't say it was a fact, I was using the Auger & Ace scenario to form a theory:unsure:

KzTxL7

@Deltron:

When was it ever said they turned it on or off?

Didn't Crocodile said he had trained himself to have his ability to activate itself when he is struck?

If that is true, then yes you can have "turn it on and off" and you can hit a logia, if they can't do the same like Croc, if they are unaware.

Elric

@KzTxL7:

Didn't Crocodile said he had trained himself to have his ability to activate itself when he is struck?

He's right, I read that at onepiece.wikia.com.

The article doesn't state any sources but it should be in the pink databook right after the page that says Mihawk can cut the elements.

Kaku1980

in my opinion the logia users can switch their ability on an off, or better said they can choose wich parts of their body are elemental and witch are solid. best proof is that they can punsh other people if smoker would always be smoke him hitting you would just feel like someone blowing smoke in our face, same with crock or kiraru, their kick and punches wouldnt do a thing, so logia means you can transform your body into elemental stat, if running around town they will probably run around solid since their body is just used to it. it ist normal otherwise you could never be kissed oder have sex e.g.

Ryuksgelus

@Deltron:

Or maybe because Luffy being rubber solidifies him i don't know maybe there was something about that in there you tell me jesus fucking christ are you kidding.

How would the rubber solidify him when it his skin didn't make contact with Enel for the final attack? Just being near rubber turns Enel into a solid? His fist inside the Gold caused Enel to solidify? What was the significance of Enel saying "its coming in too fast", if it didn't mean it was coming to fast for him to transform and move out of the way? He was planning on dodging like a normal person instead of a lightning dash?

brennen.exe

@Ryuksgelus:

What was the significance of Enel saying "its coming in too fast", if it didn't mean it was coming to fast for him to transform and move out of the way?

I thought Gold conducted electricity as well? So the attack was coming fast, and he noted its speed, but could not avoid taking that hit.

@Kaku1980:

Kizaru

Eh? Kizaru probably has a Paramecia though riiiite?? Why bring him into this.@Kaku1980:

Their kick and punches wouldnt do a thing, so logia means you can transform your body into elemental state; if running around town they will probably run around solid since their body is just used to it. It is normal**,** otherwise you could never be kissed or have sex e.g.

You fiend! Prime examples though, that. So, if a Logia cannot turn their ability off ~~ that means that their DF power either has Spidey Sense to avoid harm, or they cannot physically touch anything or anyone in the world without passing through it?

Yangzter027

I was thinkin what it it worked kinda like when Lee fought Gaara? Its a stupid example but anyways what you hit a Logia user fast enough before they a able ta turn inta their element? It takes only a split second ta turn into your element (probably), so what if you hit them in like a…milisecond? Its probably not possible for anyone ta hit that fast except maybe Kizaru but its a possibility..

Gekko135

yeah.. what happened at the restaurant was comic relief. but It was by surprise. And i'm fairly confident that Logia's can be struck when not paying attention. However, I'm with Ty… I assume that Logia's can automate their fruit powers, during a combat situation for attacks from behind and what not. but only when they sense danger. plus ace was eating. I doubt he (or any logia users) are able to consume food he's in logia state.

Gorlom

@Ryuksgelus:

How would the rubber solidify him when it his skin didn't make contact with Enel for the final attack? Just being near rubber turns Enel into a solid? His fist inside the Gold caused Enel to solidify?

Mostly because it did. The gold is attached to the arm above the wrist. Luffys fist is still out in the clear.
if you look at for example this image you can clearly see his fist:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/297/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/12-13/
HELL you even see the fist in the panel next to when Enel is saying "it's fast" that you like so much to use as an argument.

What was the significance of Enel saying "its coming in too fast", if it didn't mean it was coming to fast for him to transform and move out of the way? He was planning on dodging like a normal person instead of a lightning dash?

interesting idea. But if he has time to react and even to speak something wouldnt he have time to use an instantanious ability like turning into elemental form? Looking closer at the image HE already IS in elemental form. Why is this still being used as an argument?

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/
Ace being shot from behind before he has time to react… while he is still holding the envelope.

Ryuksgelus

What do you mean "as well"? Rubber is an electric insulator, does the opposite of what gold&copper do.

Oh, never noticed his hand sticking out the other side.

interesting idea. But if he has time to react and even to speak something wouldnt he have time to use an instantanious ability like turning into elemental form? Looking closer at the image HE already IS in elemental form. Why is this still being used as an argument?

Though it seems Luffy fist did make contact I'm gonna comment on that remark. Its shounen, they talk and think things to themselvs all the time when they shouldn't have enough time too. Ichigo&GJ staring at eachother for a long time even though he only has 11 sec to fight.

Hell characters have conversations long distances much of the time without raising their voices. Its something you're just supposed to ignore when watching/reading these stories.

He is? Fact hiss body is visibly bulging with power should tell us he's not intangible in that form.

.access timeco.

A Logia user doesn't have a "fulltime elemental body" (unlike Luffy, and, as it seems, Buggy, Alvida…). He has to transform by his will. If the user is not expecting to be attacked, he will not be able to avoid a hit like this.

That was kinda of explained when Crocodile said he trained himself to react instantly to attacks, therefore he could avoid Vivi's unexpected attack by becoming sand.

So, yeah, aside from Crocodile, you 'just' have to use the "surprise" element.

Crossword

I think Gasparde said something similar in Movie 4 after Luffy put a mast through his gut. I believe that it was something like ''When I'm not syrup, my body is normal.'' or something to that effect.

Gorlom

This post is deleted!

Gorlom

@Ryuksgelus:

He is? Fact hiss body is visibly bulging with power should tell us he's not intangible in that form.

Do you mean before or after he got hit? In the panel just before, his forehead is giving off sparks.
In the page before we see him in his giant electro mode. I'm pretty sure that would constitute as "elemental form".

After he got hit he seems to lose that form as he is forcibly returning to normal because of Luffys fist. That's how I interpret it at least.

@.access:

A Logia user doesn't have a "fulltime elemental body" (unlike Luffy, and, as it seems, Buggy, Alvida…). He has to transform by his will. If the user is not expecting to be attacked, he will not be able to avoid a hit like this.

That was kinda of explained when Crocodile said he trained himself to react instantly to attacks, therefore he could avoid Vivi's unexpected attack by becoming sand.

So, yeah, aside from Crocodile, you 'just' have to use the "surprise" element.

Imo it seems reasonable to assume that all logia users train themselves in the same way since we keep seeing them going untouchable even when the attacker gets off a surprise shot. Rain diner excluded because of comic relief.

freedom

I'm pretty sure that Luffy smashing into Smoker and then them smashing into Ace was comic relief. It's just like the "Fist of Love" that Garp used to punch Luffy.

The consistency is when the logia's are in battle. Even Ace states to BB that the attack should have phased through him. This is when we learn that BB's "logia" is an exception, and he can't phase attacks. So, my beat is that all logia's (sans BB) will automatically become their element when in danger. Even regardless of having to train it.

Zkaiser

@freedom:

I'm pretty sure that Luffy smashing into Smoker and then them smashing into Ace was comic relief. It's just like the "Fist of Love" that Garp used to punch Luffy.

The consistency is when the logia's are in battle. Even Ace states to BB that the attack should have phased through him. This is when we learn that BB's "logia" is an exception, and he can't phase attacks. So, my beat is that all logia's (sans BB) will automatically become their element when in danger. Even regardless of having to train it.

He states that they could have phased through him.
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-441/page008.html
They can turn it on or off.

.access timeco.

@Gorlom:

Imo it seems reasonable to assume that all logia users train themselves in the same way since we keep seeing them going untouchable even when the attacker gets off a surprise shot. Rain diner excluded because of comic relief.

Yeah, it could be.

But the main point is that the logia users are not already immune to any kind of physical threat. They need to react in time to do it.
Maybe all the Logia users we saw are well trained in this (I hope not. I like to think it is a unique trait to Crocodile. And maybe Ace as well, due to what we already saw)… but it is up to them, to the users, and not just a natural part of the "logia power" itself (or it would make no sense Crocodile train to do so).

EDIT: Just remembered that Enel fell asleep when Kamatari (sp?) was attacking him, and he still could become lightning :/
Oh well, but Enel also said at some point that he mastered his DF power inside out, maybe it could explain (?).
Or maybe the Mantra gave him some different kind of awareness... I don't know XP

freedom

@Zkaiser:

He states that they could have phased through him.
http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-441/page008.html
They can turn it on or off.

Let's not get into semantics and translations on this one. At least for me, i don't speak japanese, and I always use stephen's scripts for my sources.

Ok, I'm not denying that logia's can turn on/off their element.
What we're debating here is how they react to an attack they don't know is coming or can't see coming.

So far, in a real fight, not something designed as comic relief, logia's are portrayed to automatically change to their element as a safety. do they train this ability, or is it innate to the logia DF class? I'm not sure, maybe you are. However, I'd like to think that when it's all said and done, that the "plot device" to overcome a logia's ability isn't to get them with a surprise attack.

@.access:

Yeah, it could be.

But the main point is that the logia users are not already immune to any kind of physical threat. They need to react in time to do it.
Maybe all the Logia users we saw are well trained in this (I hope not. I like to think it is a unique trait to Crocodile. And maybe Ace as well, due to what we already saw)… but it is up to them, to the users, and not just a natural part of the "logia power" itself (or it would make no sense Crocodile train to do so).

Could you point out where Crocodile states he trains his DF power to do this? Because I thought he said he trained his powers to absorb the water out of things. Perhaps I need to go re-read that section.

Elric

@freedom:

Could you point out where Crocodile states he trains his DF power to do this? Because I thought he said he trained his powers to absorb the water out of things. Perhaps I need to go re-read that section.

Dewd!?! How can you still ask this when like everyone and their grandmother knows Croc specifically trained his reflexes to let attacks pass through him. You can look this up at any OP site in the world, even at AP's own encyclopedia.

undead_assault

@Elric:

Dewd!?! How can you still ask this when like everyone and their grandmother knows Croc specifically trained his reflexes to let attacks pass through him. You can look this up at any OP site in the world, even at AP's own encyclopedia.

hmmm, can you just give him the link?

@Gorlom:

http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/298/
Ace being shot from behind before he has time to react… while he is still holding the envelope.

hmmm, I think the envelope has become element as well like his shorts and hat

IMO, Logia user automatically change into their element when something attack him/her.

But Logia user can manually let his/her body solid, that's why Ace said "You could've LET that attack phase you"

If Logia user can be hit with surprise attack, there's no big difference between Logia and Paramecia

igetownd

Actually, taking a closer look. Smoker was already becoming smoke when Luffy rammed him :blink: http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-158/page006.html

This means that full body blows may affect logias?

Zkaiser

Take that bitches!! Hit 'em when he's unaware!!!

igetownd

And http://read.mangashare.com/One-Piece/chapter-178/page005.html

I think Crocodile was talking about his ability to slice the desert apart when he said he trained his abilities. I still think logias automatically turn into their elements when hit, in addition to additional elemental properties.

But when you smack them with a wall, the whole body is hit and can be sent flying.

Zkaiser

But Luffy hit him in the selle with his head. That's not a wall. Gear Third is a wall.

igetownd

Gear 2nd + 3rd = Logia go bye bye

Except Kizaru. He moves at light speed so he dodges. Luffy must improve Gear 2nd so he can hit Kizaru.