I'm assuming people who don't realize FUNimation has one piece are the exception to the rule of people who do.
Funi TV Discussion (Saturday Night/Sunday Morning 1:00 a.m., USA Toonami)
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I dunno, I'm always sorta astonished by the number of folks over at places like Naruto Forums or elsewhere who either think 4kids still has the show, or didn't even know the show was dubbed at all. There's actually alot of people out there who think this, as sad as that is.
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Why exactly was One Piece booted from Toonami all those years ago? Low ratings, correct?
I know OP's popularity has increased in America since then (considering Funimation's DVDs, the Viz speed-up, and now its return to Toonami)…..can we be sure history won't repeat itself?
Because Toonami was coming to a close that year/ ratings. Also it had 4KIDZ subs! Jesus…it was a mess.
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I'm assuming people who don't realize FUNimation has one piece are the exception to the rule of people who do.
That's a hefty assumption
Because Toonami was coming to a close that year/ ratings. Also it had 4KIDZ subs! Jesus…it was a mess.
4Kids had nothing to do with the cancellation
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So if One Piece is replacing Tenchi Muyo, when is that show going to end?
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So if One Piece is replacing Tenchi Muyo, when is that show going to end?
GXP is set to end May 11th (if there's no other delays). It can't come soon enough.
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That's cool. I guess I was hoping for sooner. :(
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I would like an announcement sooner, though.
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Mostly rejoined just to say a few things. I haven't seen anyone post the official Toonami Tumblr links, so I guess I'll try my best to shed some light.
The toonami guys, aren't sure if One Piece will be the show that replaces GXP: http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/45048940991/one-announcement-to-rule-them-all The line up won't change on the day Tom 5 comes: http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/46155678586/in-april-will-we-get-a-new-line-up-with-the-new-tom The crew is seriously considering not starting One Piece from the beginning: http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/46285793422/youve-said-youre-not-sure-where-youre-going-to-start
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http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/46340357985/why-dont-you-want-to-start-one-piece-at-the-beginningThey also won't be running two airings a week: http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/46374921263/would-it-be-possible-to-show-one-piece-twice-in-one
IGPX is also coming back, but it won't be the show that replaces GXP in May: http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/46413385326/is-igpx-the-show-that-will-replace-gxp-or-is-that-aYou may know most of these, you may not. I haven't seen anyone post them, so I thought I'd just inform. Oh well.
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Thanks! Cool stuff.
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Yes, thank you!
It would be about four years before we would even get to where we stopped airing One PIece the first time, and then we’d have ANOTHER four or five years before we caught up to where it is in Japan. We DID say we don’t mind long running shows, but almost a decade seems like a pretty crazy bet. That’s why we’re not sure about starting it at the beginning. Makes sense, right?
I called it, that this would be the logic they used. I'm happy to see that they feel that way.
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Okay after hearing that from them I'd be very surprised to see us actually start at Episode 1.
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I wouldn't take that as definite likelihood, only that they're seriously considering it. And companies always consider each perspective from their fanbase. Whether or not they go with episode one or later episodes, I wouldn't be surprised with either decision.
And quite frankly, it shouldn't even matter how long it takes to get caught up. If the whole point of a T.V. deal is just to give the pre-installed fanbase what they want as quickly as possible, than you're just catering to a fraction of the audience.
I remember a similar situation when we found out 4Kids cancelled it and we were speculating about what could happen to the series next (this was a little before we found out FUNimation got it). Several posters and I here were saying we'd like to see a redub from the beginning on T.V., and then I remember one specific poster and I think at least another one saying it would be better to just start airing from where 4Kids left off. For the camp I was in, we had our own reasons for why we thought starting from the beginning was better for the property on T.V., but deep down it was coming from a mindset of what the fans wanted for themselves, not what was most practical at that point.
In hindsight, I'm glad FUNimation started off from where 4Kids left off instead of just starting from scratch. Even though it ultimately got pulled, it was just more practical to go with season 3 (and before anyone says anything no airing new episodes from where 4Kids left off was not a factor at all in negatively affecting its performance on Cartoon Network. It got cancelled for other reasons).
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And quite frankly, it shouldn't even matter how long it takes to get caught up. If the whole point of a T.V. deal is just to give the pre-installed fanbase what they want as quickly as possible, than you're just catering to a fraction of the audience.
Though, isn't it also in the interest of the channel itself to not lose viewers? (Sure, Funimation would probably like them starting from the beginning to increase DVD sales, but) In the case of Toonami, say they start from the beginning. What's to stop people from going to the free Hulu stream where there are 202 dubbed episodes up and waiting, that is should the eager viewer want more One Piece. Though again, bring up Naruto and I haven't seen its ratings fluctuate too much. It gets the top Toonami ratings next to Bleach, even though you can find most of it's episodes online. It really just depends on the first impressions One Piece gives to audiences. In Naruto's case it immediately goes to the Zabuza arc in about 4 episodes, whereas you have something like Arlong Park (considered the best arc of the East Blue) that doesn't start until episode 31.
How much faith can we put into new viewers to watch more than 3 episodes? Especially with the cartoonish style (most known for turning people off One Piece) being so prevelant in those early episodes.
Now maybe, just maybe Zoro could pull in some of those viewers, but I don't really know.
Either way it's a double edged sword.
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Though, isn't it also in the interest of the channel itself to not lose viewers? (Sure, Funimation would probably like them starting from the beginning to increase DVD sales, but)
Yes, and they're more likely to lose viewers if people are coming into it with a clean slate. If a casual viewer is just jumping into the middle of the series they're more likely to get lost and more importantly not really care about what's going on since they're not that familiar with the story in the first place. And no recaps are not a solution, but I can explain that later if you want. Also from a recent inteview with FUNimation's "One Piece" brand manager it sounds like Toonami and FUNimation are both in mutual consideration of not starting at episode 1.
AND I don't think FUNimation/Toei Animation would enter into an agreement unless it mutually benefits both parties. Which means ratings for Toonami and DVD sales for FUNi.
In the case of Toonami, say they start from the beginning. What's to stop people from going to the free Hulu stream where there are 202 dubbed episodes up and waiting, that is should the eager viewer want more One Piece.
That's going to happen regardless. Also keep in mind that they don't just have every single episode of the dub on Hulu, they're in rotation.The fans that already know how to get those episodes online can get them, and if a new viewer really wants to get those episodes they'll find a way. If anything if they start at season 4 or something, again, they'll have more reason to want to watch those earlier episodes because they'll want to get into the series in a more practical way. Then they'll stop watching the Toonami run.
Though again, bring up Naruto and I haven't seen its ratings fluctuate too much. It gets the top Toonami ratings next to Bleach, even though you can find most of it's episodes online. It really just depends on the first impressions One Piece gives to audiences. In Naruto's case it immediately goes to the Zabuza arc in about 4 episodes, whereas you have something like Arlong Park (considered the best arc of the East Blue) that doesn't start until episode 31.
How much faith can we put into new viewers to watch more than 3 episodes? Especially with the cartoonish style (most known for turning people off One Piece) being so prevelant in those early episodes.
Now maybe, just maybe Zoro could pull in some of those viewers, but I don't really know.
But see now that's a much more subjective argument, that's second-guessing the audience simply because it takes a little longer for "One Piece" to hit its high point. You could almost say you're not giving the audience enough credit. Just because those first few episodes don't "hook" you right away doesn't mean casual viewers will be turned off. It just means it could take a little longer for "One Piece" to really catch on.
I mean it's not unheard of for a show to get really big after an initial stage of ratings that lean more on the modest side. This might be an unfair comparison, but look at the revival of the Toonami the block itself. The initial ratings were good but not great, with a lineup of new "Bleach", reruns of shows from the previous [adult swim] action block, and two new shows that while good and got the ratings they weren't big names. But after a while, with enough word-of-mouth and a bigger budget, Toonami was able to get more popular shows that lead to increased ratings.
Also that cartoonish characteristic that's so prevalent in those first few episodes, that's commonly problematic for getting people into the series–-is something that stays with the series. Yes later on we get more serious stuff, but "One Piece" is known for having a pretty consistent tone that goes from lighthearted to dramatic and so on and so forth. It doesn't mean that "One Piece" will turn off potential viewers right away, it just means it will take time for the series to prove itself. If anything from what I've observed the people that don't really want to watch it because of that cartoonish style are those that have a certain idea of action/adventure anime set in their heads after exposing enough previous exposure to the genre. That doesn't necessarily represent the majority of casual viewers. And the people that have that negative impression initially usually have only seen the 4Kids version or none of the Japanese/FUNimation version at all.
And honestly, it's not as if a ton of the hardcore "One Piece" fans out there didn't get into the series through the beginning. I know I certainly did, I chose to because, again, it made the most sense. And that first season isn't as sluggish as a lot of fans make it out to be. It doesn't get truly awesome that quickly, but it's not unenjoyable, in fact it's fun. And it goes at a pretty brisk pace to be honest. We essentially have a few short origin arcs that ease you into the world. There's not as much of a commitment to follow each and every episode of the East Blue arc as say Water 7, where there's a ton episodes for one particular story arc where a ton of major shit happens. And as the first season goes on we see more and more of that dynamic mix of comedic to serious and back again. We even see that start to happen at episode four.
On another note, let's look at when "One Piece" first came out on Cartoon Network, with the 4Kids dub on Toonami. It actually did well, it was the highest-rated show on Toonami before "Naruto" showed up. And that was starting from season one. Now granted it was initially two episodes a week (if I remember correctly), but it was still the first season, and more importantly it was the 4Kids dub. It's also interesting to consider that it got good ratings on a T.V. block targeted to older viewers, older than the target demo for 4KidsTV, which is where "One Piece" flopped.
Either way it's a double edged sword.
Not as much as you think. Again, those first few episodes aren't amazing, but it's an introduction, which is naturally something that the average person wants in a story. Jumping into the middle of the series, well hey it might be at a really great arc, but it's not going to matter that much to a new viewer who's not very familiar with the series. Ultimately that kind of introduction to a series is not going to resonate with someone as well when all this stuff is happening that they don't have a foundation with and more importantly they could get lost and lose interest. And yes there are fans who got into the series at different points, but they don't represent the majority.
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Yes, and they're more likely to lose viewers if people are coming into it with a clean slate. If a casual viewer is just jumping into the middle of the series they're more likely to get lost and more importantly not really care about what's going on since they're not that familiar with the story in the first place. And no recaps are not a solution, but I can explain that later if you want. Also from a recent inteview with FUNimation's "One Piece" brand manager it sounds like Toonami and FUNimation are both in mutual consideration of not starting at episode 1.
AND I don't think FUNimation/Toei Animation would enter into an agreement unless it mutually benefits both parties. Which means ratings for Toonami and DVD sales for FUNi.
Well, I'm not the person who wants Season 4, rather I think of going back to Jaya. Jaya was an arc that needed next to no explanation of who the main cast really were, aside from the one reference to Alabasta. Really, anybody could follow Jaya and Skypiea easily without needing to really know the backstories of the entire crew. For all newcomers would know, the East Blue never happened until it's referenced again long after people got to know the characters. Skypiea never really makes any of the character's dreams come into play, rather most of the motivations of being in Skypiea are to have fun and help Montblanc. By the end of that arc most newcomers who want to get in would have actually looked into the early episodes online and get a much further grasp of what happened.
And technically Toei probably wouldn't mind, knowing those greedy numbnuts, they would think that starting later would allow them to sell more modern merchandise.
That's going to happen regardless. Also keep in mind that they don't just have every single episode of the dub on Hulu, they're in rotation.The fans that already know how to get those episodes online can get them, and if a new viewer really wants to get those episodes they'll find a way. If anything if they start at season 4 or something, again, they'll have more reason to want to watch those earlier episodes because they'll want to get into the series in a more practical way. Then they'll stop watching the Toonami run.
They don't have the newer stuff just released on DVD, but Hulu has enough it has the first 13 episodes, making for 13 weeks already. At least with starting at Jaya, you get some damage control.
They'll just watch the early seasons in conjunction with the Toonami run. I really don't see the logic in just to stop watching the run because it doesn't have the early stuff.
But see now that's a much more subjective argument, that's second-guessing the audience simply because it takes a little longer for "One Piece" to hit its high point. You could almost say you're not giving the audience enough credit. Just because those first few episodes don't "hook" you right away doesn't mean casual viewers will be turned off. It just means it could take a little longer for "One Piece" to really catch on.
I mean it's not unheard of for a show to get really big after an initial stage of ratings that lean more on the modest side. This might be an unfair comparison, but look at the revival of the Toonami the block itself. The initial ratings were good but not great, with a lineup of new "Bleach", reruns of shows from the previous [adult swim] action block, and two new shows that while good and got the ratings they weren't big names. But after a while, with enough word-of-mouth and a bigger budget, Toonami was able to get more popular shows that lead to increased ratings.
Also that cartoonish characteristic that's so prevalent in those first few episodes, that's commonly problematic for getting people into the series–-is something that stays with the series. Yes later on we get more serious stuff, but "One Piece" is known for having a pretty consistent tone that goes from lighthearted to dramatic and so on and so forth. It doesn't mean that "One Piece" will turn off potential viewers right away, it just means it will take time for the series to prove itself. If anything from what I've observed the people that don't really want to watch it because of that cartoonish style are those that have a certain idea of action/adventure anime set in their heads after exposing enough previous exposure to the genre. That doesn't necessarily represent the majority of casual viewers. And the people that have that negative impression initially usually have only seen the 4Kids version or none of the Japanese/FUNimation version at all.
And honestly, it's not as if a ton of the hardcore "One Piece" fans out there didn't get into the series through the beginning. I know I certainly did, I chose to because, again, it made the most sense. And that first season isn't as sluggish as a lot of fans make it out to be. It doesn't get truly awesome that quickly, but it's not unenjoyable, in fact it's fun. And it goes at a pretty brisk pace to be honest. We essentially have a few short origin arcs that ease you into the world. There's not as much of a commitment to follow each and every episode of the East Blue arc as say Water 7, where there's a ton episodes for one particular story arc where a ton of major shit happens. And as the first season goes on we see more and more of that dynamic mix of comedic to serious and back again. We even see that start to happen at episode four.
On another note, let's look at when "One Piece" first came out on Cartoon Network, with the 4Kids dub on Toonami. It actually did well, it was the highest-rated show on Toonami before "Naruto" showed up. And that was starting from season one. Now granted it was initially two episodes a week (if I remember correctly), but it was still the first season, and more importantly it was the 4Kids dub. It's also interesting to consider that it got good ratings on a T.V. block targeted to older viewers, older than the target demo for 4KidsTV, which is where "One Piece" flopped.
Well then I guess we should ask the question of who the audience for One Piece is on the Toonami run? Will they be the most hardcore of anime watchers who would gladly give the show a chance, or will they be Adult Swim's audience who have been known to be pretty ruthless with anime that even smells kiddy (lest we forget what happened to Detective Conan which is far from our standards as a childish show).
I don't feel the style is as evident in the later episodes as it is in the early ones. In those episodes its more like you are watching… well, a swashbuckling radio serial at times, while at the same time also being very lighthearted. The darker aspect I would argue doesn't really touch into play until Mihawk shows up and turns the whole show on its head. Kuro, Buggy, and Morgan, are very Saturday morning like, just with a little more blood spilled.
The getting into the beginning part is a pretty big assumption on your part, because I've known people who I've gotten into the series by just showing the Luffy vs Lucci fight. Again, unless we conducted a poll with at least a good number of One Piece fans, (or if you have one to give) this part of the discussion won't really go anywhere.
You may have a point with Toonami, if you can show me some ratings from the 2005 year. That's when One Piece got it's first airing, with two episodes a week, before losing its second slot to Naruto in September. And it was at 10pm after all, so if you can produce some CN numbers I'll be quite inclined to believe that.
Not as much as you think. Again, those first few episodes aren't amazing, but it's an introduction, which is naturally something that the average person wants in a story. Jumping into the middle of the series, well hey it might be at a really great arc, but it's not going to matter that much to a new viewer who's not very familiar with the series. Ultimately that kind of introduction to a series is not going to resonate with someone as well when all this stuff is happening that they don't have a foundation with and more importantly they could get lost and lose interest. And yes there are fans who got into the series at different points, but they don't represent the majority.
Again, you need to give me some proof before I can really believe you. I'm not going to disprove you, but the idea that most of us got into One Piece in the beginning is something you're gonna have to prove to me, because it really is just an assumption. Because I'm a One Piece fan who joined in at Skypiea, so I already counter you. Either way, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what gets through and what will happen. Whatever does, I'm sure the Toonami crew are going to think long and hard before they make it.
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I started watching One Piece from the beginning. It was actually the 4 kids dub that got me into it. I started watching it on Saturday mornings when it first started. It wasn't until the beginning of Alabasta when I realized how bad the dub was and I started watching episodes on youtube until I caught up to the anime.
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Well, I'm not the person who wants Season 4, rather I think of going back to Jaya. Jaya was an arc that needed next to no explanation of who the main cast really were, aside from the one reference to Alabasta. Really, anybody could follow Jaya and Skypiea easily without needing to really know the backstories of the entire crew. For all newcomers would know, the East Blue never happened until it's referenced again long after people got to know the characters. Skypiea never really makes any of the character's dreams come into play, rather most of the motivations of being in Skypiea are to have fun and help Montblanc. By the end of that arc most newcomers who want to get in would have actually looked into the early episodes online and get a much further grasp of what happened.
With any long-running series it's easy enough for new viewers to jump into any point, for the reasons you're pointing out. They'll get into it, continue watching it, and maybe look into earlier episodes. But honestly, just making that later point THE entry point isn't practical, you have to look at the bigger picture.
For all it's worth, "One Piece" is not a well-known property in America. When a new viewer jumps into the show in the middle of a run, it's already after the show is well-known enough and marketed enough on television that a viewer can feel comfortable knowing that it's popular enough to get into. I mean how are you going to market the show when it premieres? They'd be new episodes of a show that's been off the air for five years, in terms of the overall television audience it's faded kind of faded into obscurity. You have to give people a reason to care, otherwise you're just giving them the impression that it's meant mainly for people that are already invested in the show. And what you're doing now is giving reasons for why Jaya/Skypiea works as an entry point when it wasn't even meant or designed to be an entry point in the first place. I mean, in a way you're deliberately finding reasons as to why it's not that alienating, which is sort of complicating the issue of how to get someone into a series.
And honestly I think you're overestimating the viewer-base at large. T.V. viewership means more casual viewership, some people just want to watch something on T.V. A portion will go online, but honestly if people are somewhat required to go somewhere else just to get the basic viewing experience (chronological order), than you're kind of making a bold assumption about how most viewers behave. And honestly, you shouldn't assume that a lot of viewers are going to go check out a show online out of curiousity because their initial exposure is many, many episodes later into the series, a series that hasn't yet made headway on television. That's really more likely if that season really does hook viewers big time, and when you're making an argument as to why season 3 works on a broader level (where it starts on T.V.) with very specific reasons, than that's assuming specific mindset in the average viewer who's coming into the series with a clean slate. And it would probably only work if those newer episodes really hook most viewers, otherwise you're taking a gamble on a series that hasn't proven itself after being off television for a very long time.
And technically Toei probably wouldn't mind, knowing those greedy numbnuts, they would think that starting later would allow them to sell more modern merchandise.
They were selling merchandise from Water 7 before those episodes were even licensed in America, so that issue doesn't really matter.
They don't have the newer stuff just released on DVD, but Hulu has enough it has the first 13 episodes, making for 13 weeks already. At least with starting at Jaya, you get some damage control.
And again, those episodes are in rotation, there's several gaps. It's good if you just want to watch a portion of the series at a time, but not if you just want to watch straight through, either on a linear schedule (television) or marathoning.
They'll just watch the early seasons in conjunction with the Toonami run. I really don't see the logic in just to stop watching the run because it doesn't have the early stuff.
Because most viewers would rather just watch a serialized show in proper order. It just seems kind of pointless to watch new episodes of a show you're not caught up with while simultaneously just watching the show as is. Again, that's a more specific viewing habit.
Well then I guess we should ask the question of who the audience for One Piece is on the Toonami run? Will they be the most hardcore of anime watchers who would gladly give the show a chance, or will they be Adult Swim's audience who have been known to be pretty ruthless with anime that even smells kiddy (lest we forget what happened to Detective Conan which is far from our standards as a childish show).
Why can't we just look at it in the broadest sense? Anybody who's up late at night and happens to have Toonami on their T.V. is a potential viewer. It could be hardcore fans, new fans, anybody really. I don't know where Toonami thinks most of their ratings are going to come from in the lpng-term with this show, whether they're depending on hardcore anime fans or just people who happen to have cable and might be interested in it. But from what I know the whole point of getting a show on T.V. is to expose it to a larger audience, people who are new to the show. And when you're starting from the very beginning you're being more viewer-friendly in that regard.
I don't feel the style is as evident in the later episodes as it is in the early ones. In those episodes its more like you are watching… well, a swashbuckling radio serial at times, while at the same time also being very lighthearted. The darker aspect I would argue doesn't really touch into play until Mihawk shows up and turns the whole show on its head. Kuro, Buggy, and Morgan, are very Saturday morning like, just with a little more blood spilled.
But why is that a problem? What you're talking about is a matter of a series evolving, not a dramatic shift. There's nothing inherently alienating about that Saturday-morning cartoon vibe that's more evident at the beginning of the series, it just means it takes time for the series to hit its high points. If you're implying that most viewers don't have the patience to get to those points, well then how did anyone get into a story that gradually builds up?
The getting into the beginning part is a pretty big assumption on your part, because I've known people who I've gotten into the series by just showing the Luffy vs Lucci fight. Again, unless we conducted a poll with at least a good number of One Piece fans, (or if you have one to give) this part of the discussion won't really go anywhere.
It's not a big assumption, it's a fundamental assumption. If you were to ask the average person at what point they'd like to get into a story, they'd say the beginning. And if they're really that interested in it, they'll stick through it to see if it gets better. And I never said that most fans got into the series from the beginning, just that plenty of them did. And I'm aware that fans have gotten into the series through snippets and such of stuff that happens later on the series. So what? Those are generally individual cases, I'm talking about fundamentals. And of course any fan could get convinced to watch something because they see something cool from later on the series. That's a sample of what to look forward to, doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't want to start from the beginning.
You may have a point with Toonami, if you can show me some ratings from the 2005 year. That's when One Piece got it's first airing, with two episodes a week, before losing its second slot to Naruto in September. And it was at 10pm after all, so if you can produce some CN numbers I'll be quite inclined to believe that.
Not exactly what I was looking for, but here's a quick example of what I was talking about:
http://www.animationinsider.net/article.php?articleID=924
Again, you need to give me some proof before I can really believe you. I'm not going to disprove you, but the idea that most of us got into One Piece in the beginning is something you're gonna have to prove to me, because it really is just an assumption. Because I'm a One Piece fan who joined in at Skypiea, so I already counter you. Either way, I guess we'll just have to wait and see what gets through and what will happen. Whatever does, I'm sure the Toonami crew are going to think long and hard before they make it.
On that note I'd like to see some proof that most fans got into the series NOT through the beginning. And we probably won't find proof either way. Every fan has their own story. But you shouldn't assume that just because a certain way works for certain fans that it will cover the average viewer with the average T.V. viewing habits.
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Because most viewers would rather just watch a serialized show in proper order. It just seems kind of pointless to watch new episodes of a show you're not caught up with while simultaneously just watching the show as is. Again, that's a more specific viewing habit.
We call those latecomers. It happens.
Why can't we just look at it in the broadest sense? Anybody who's up late at night and happens to have Toonami on their T.V. is a potential viewer. It could be hardcore fans, new fans, anybody really. I don't know where Toonami thinks most of their ratings are going to come from in the lpng-term with this show, whether they're depending on hardcore anime fans or just people who happen to have cable and might be interested in it. But from what I know the whole point of getting a show on T.V. is to expose it to a larger audience, people who are new to the show. And when you're starting from the very beginning you're being more viewer-friendly in that regard.
In the broadcast sense, first impressions matter. You establish your audience within less than a few episodes in, and even more of them with the first episode. Aesthetics matter for that as well when its late at night. Again, I have to bring up Detective Conan's failure. However, being that its Toonami, different standards may be upheld when watching in. So you probably have more of a point.
But why is that a problem? What you're talking about is a matter of a series evolving, not a dramatic shift. There's nothing inherently alienating about that Saturday-morning cartoon vibe that's more evident at the beginning of the series, it just means it takes time for the series to hit its high points. If you're implying that most viewers don't have the patience to get to those points, well then how did anyone get into a story that gradually builds up?
By evolving from a small selection of fans who were very stubborn in spreading good word of mouth when there was little else but a bad dub and a seriously lagging manga?
It's not a big assumption, it's a fundamental assumption. If you were to ask the average person at what point they'd like to get into a story, they'd say the beginning. And if they're really that interested in it, they'll stick through it to see if it gets better. And I never said that most fans got into the series from the beginning, just that plenty of them did. And I'm aware that fans have gotten into the series through snippets and such of stuff that happens later on the series. So what? Those are generally individual cases, I'm talking about fundamentals. And of course any fan could get convinced to watch something because they see something cool from later on the series. That's a sample of what to look forward to, doesn't necessarily mean they wouldn't want to start from the beginning.
"And yes there are fans who got into the series at different points, but they don't represent the majority." - You
I assumed from that, that you did say that. It was an honest mistake I suppose.Not exactly what I was looking for, but here's a quick example of what I was talking about:
You'll need more than a month, but this is leaning towards proving your point very well.
On that note I'd like to see some proof that most fans got into the series NOT through the beginning. And we probably won't find proof either way. Every fan has their own story. But you shouldn't assume that just because a certain way works for certain fans that it will cover the average viewer with the average T.V. viewing habits.
I'm not assuming anything, I simply said for you to prove your assumption. I'm not saying for you to disprove anything, because there's nothing to disprove, but rather TO prove.
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So the Toonami Tumblr just posted this http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/47015230549/straw-hat-pirates#= Subtle hint that they've decided upon starting with Season 4? Or just a nice way to show off the straw hats? Let the speculation continue.
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Oh bloody hell. I really prefer if they went with Season 3. Season 4 relies so much on how well you know the crew and getting their emotions out of the experience.
Speaking of which, if they do go with Season 4, this could actually be the chance for us to hear a dubbed Map of the Heart. Toei might change their minds about this conflict if they know that it's going to be on television.
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Oh bloody hell. I really prefer if they went with Season 3. Season 4 relies so much on how well you know the crew and getting their emotions out of the experience.
Speaking of which, if they do go with Season 4, this could actually be the chance for us to hear a dubbed Map of the Heart. Toei might change their minds about this conflict if they know that it's going to be on television.
It's not up to Toei, it's a matter of rights issues.
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Yesyesyesyesyes!
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love seeing on the block again. hopes it replaces tenchi gxp but place it after or before soul eater
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@RPG:
love seeing on the block again. hopes it replaces tenchi gxp but place it after or before soul eater
Chances are looking that one piece won't be the show that replaces Tenchi.
Most of us on TZ assume that One piece is being withheld for the 11pm hour most of us Toonami fans have been hoping for, hence why there is no definite announcement. Though "assume" is the magic word here.
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We call those latecomers. It happens.
Yeah but by making their very first experience a later season, isn't that a deliberate latecomer?
In the broadcast sense, first impressions matter. You establish your audience within less than a few episodes in, and even more of them with the first episode. Aesthetics matter for that as well when its late at night. Again, I have to bring up Detective Conan's failure. However, being that its Toonami, different standards may be upheld when watching in. So you probably have more of a point.
No being Toonami I doubt changes anything. And the whole failure of "Detective Conan" is another story. I don't exactly remember how [adult swim] treated it but my friend told me they sabotaged its broadcast, I'll ask him the details. Also keep in mind that a murder mystery show about kids is probably a tougher sell.
And again, I think you're overplaying the whole aesthetics thing. Yes it matters, but if it's really that big a deal, and that viewers aren't going to judge it for the story itself, than it's going to be a tough sell in the first place. And that aesthetic never goes away, "One Piece" just evolves. That's it. Convincing a large audience to check out a show they're not familiar with through later episodes is just deliberate.
By evolving from a small selection of fans who were very stubborn in spreading good word of mouth when there was little else but a bad dub and a seriously lagging manga?
And did most of those fans get into the series through the middle of the story? Or rather to be more fair, was that the most effective way they became fans and spread out?
On another note, I think its fair to say that most people in America that know about "One Piece", whether they're hardcore fans or non-fans, found out about it when that bad dub was airing and/or through the seriously lagging manga.
You'll need more than a month, but this is leaning towards proving your point very well.
I'm having a hard time finding more sources, they're pretty much buried in search engines. But trust me when I say Cartoon Network wouldn't have aired everything 4Kids dubbed if it didn't get good ratings. Just ask any Toonami aficionado and they'll probably tell you the same thing.
I'm not assuming anything, I simply said for you to prove your assumption. I'm not saying for you to disprove anything, because there's nothing to disprove, but rather TO prove.
Now that I think about it I don't even know why we're talking about proving or disproving an assumption, because by definition assumptions aren't based on proof.
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Don't think this was answered before but…..season 4. That's Davy Back Fight to Enies Lobby?
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Don't think this was answered before but…..season 4. That's Davy Back Fight to Enies Lobby?
Yup. Episodes 206-263.
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I distinctly remember a rating report that had Al khan( then head of 4kids entertainment) saying that he was proud that One Piece was the number 1 toonami show before naruto came.
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If they start with Season 4 (I dislike the idea, but whatever), I really hope they don't start with the Davy Back Fight. That's the arc that is most likely to turn off new viewers.
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This shouldn't even be a matter of what episodes will turn off viewers or not. There will always be good and bad and ok episodes, you can't change that. It should be about introducing people to show, without second-guessing them.
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Yeah but by making their very first experience a later season, isn't that a deliberate latecomer?
Yep.
No being Toonami I doubt changes anything. And the whole failure of "Detective Conan" is another story. I don't exactly remember how [adult swim] treated it but my friend told me they sabotaged its broadcast, I'll ask him the details. Also keep in mind that a murder mystery show about kids is probably a tougher sell.
And again, I think you're overplaying the whole aesthetics thing. Yes it matters, but if it's really that big a deal, and that viewers aren't going to judge it for the story itself, than it's going to be a tough sell in the first place. And that aesthetic never goes away, "One Piece" just evolves. That's it. Convincing a large audience to check out a show they're not familiar with through later episodes is just deliberate.
They screwed it over after unsuccessful weeks of playing the show. They sabotaged it after they gave it their chances. And remember, the aesthetics are not that far from One Piece, only that the two "kid" characters vary in height.
Aesthetics can also matter in the sense of what happens during the episode. In episode one, it plays out much like a Saturday morning cartoon, with a style that contributes to that feeling. In the case of Jaya, it pulls enough surprises in comparison to possibly intrigue the viewer into thinking there's more involved.
And did most of those fans get into the series through the middle of the story? Or rather to be more fair, was that the most effective way they became fans and spread out?
On another note, I think its fair to say that most people in America that know about "One Piece", whether they're hardcore fans or non-fans, found out about it when that bad dub was airing and/or through the seriously lagging manga.
If you mean the original fandom, then yes. The word of mouth fans are another question which neither of us are going to really find without some wide spread poll, like the ones you One Piece Unofficial guys put out on FB.
Yes they did, but what kind of impression was that I wonder? And how would it color them seeing those episodes again?
I'm having a hard time finding more sources, they're pretty much buried in search engines. But trust me when I say Cartoon Network wouldn't have aired everything 4Kids dubbed if it didn't get good ratings. Just ask any Toonami aficionado and they'll probably tell you the same thing.
No, you've proved your point. Two people have already come out, and I believe you well enough. Though we also have to wonder why they watched it.
Now that I think about it I don't even know why we're talking about proving or disproving an assumption, because by definition assumptions aren't based on proof.
Because finding proof would allow for an interesting perspective at the least.
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Yep.
What makes you think that enough of those potential viewers out there, who could reach in over a million, would be willing to do that with a property that they don't really know that well? That's a lot of people. You can't expect enough of them to just get into it because they're new episodes of a show, a show that isn't really that popular. Yes I know it's popular relatively speaking but in the end it's a niche thing on a non-niche outlet:Cartoon Network/adult swim.
With a successful T.V. run, you don't just get latecomers from get-go. They come in gradually after a bunch of people already discovered it for themselves from the beginning and give it the ratings it needs for more advertising and more word-of-mouth. It has to work its way up, thats how it works. And why would the average viewer want to just go into a new show when it's so painfully obvious that what they're watching the first time isn't self-contained?
They screwed it over after unsuccessful weeks of playing the show. They sabotaged it after they gave it their chances. And remember, the aesthetics are not that far from One Piece, only that the two "kid" characters vary in height.
I don't know the exact details of what Cartoon Network did to make it fail, I'd have to ask my friend. But basically I know it was a matter of mismanagement on the channel's part.
Also you're neglecting to mention the very OBVIOUS difference. "Detective Conan" is an kid-centric murder show complete with graphic violence, while "One Piece" is a more a general audience "Dragonball"-esque action/adventure pirate story. One is more broadly understood and appealing than the other.
Aesthetics can also matter in the sense of what happens during the episode. In episode one, it plays out much like a Saturday morning cartoon, with a style that contributes to that feeling. In the case of Jaya, it pulls enough surprises in comparison to possibly intrigue the viewer into thinking there's more involved.
You're talking about aesthetics but you're not really talking the experience of watching a show itself. It's not going to matter to the average, unassuming viewer who's only seen commercials for the most part. Aesthetics aren't going to matter when ultimately most people just want to know what's going on in the story, and most of those new viewers aren't going to have some perfect explanation of the story thus far right in front of them. When you talk about aesthetics you're almost implying that most of those people that are going to be watching Toonami are more critical than you think they are. That's way too subjective of a view to take with over thousands of people.
Also, is it really such a bad thing that it plays out like a Saturday morning cartoon? It's pretty much unanimous among fandom that the show itself is like a Saturday morning cartoon that's really fucking good. The reason it's not apparent that it's really fucking good at the beginning is because…it's only the beginning. That's usually how it works. Also "One Piece" would not be the only Saturday-morning -esque action cartoon out there in recent memory that's pulled in a large adult fanbase. Just look at "Avatar: the Last Airbender".
If you mean the original fandom, then yes. The word of mouth fans are another question which neither of us are going to really find without some wide spread poll, like the ones you One Piece Unofficial guys put out on FB.
How do you quantify "word-of-mouth" fans? The fanbase is so varied and what could be considered word-of-mouth comes at different levels. Word-of-mouth just means more people get exposed to it and they tell other people about it, that's it.
And if by "word-of-mouth" you mean the people currently talking about it a lot online. Well vocal and opinionated fans don't necessarily represent the vast majority, or for that matter represent the ideas and preferences of the people that watch it at large. Which for the case of Toonami could be a lot of people who don't watch anime online or read manga.
Yes they did, but what kind of impression was that I wonder? And how would it color them seeing those episodes again?
Like I showed you, the 4Kids dub actually did well on Cartoon Network, it's just that it didn't catch on like it could've had 4Kids not handled it. Seeing a better, more faithful version of a show you were already somewhat familiar with certainly has a different appeal to the casual viewer, as opposed to new episodes of a show you never really got into. I mean the whole "Naruto Uncut" thing seems to be working for Toonami now, would be even more effective with "One Piece".
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http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/47118015742/new-piece-this-week#=
[NEW PIECE THIS WEEK.
What’s our new piece this week, you ask? Well… it’s a secret! The next two weeks, we’ve got a fun little thing happening we hope you’ll enjoy. All we can say is… tune in and find out! And yes… NO HINTS. :)See you Saturday!](http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/47118015742/new-piece-this-week#=)xoxo, Your Toonami Crew.
May or may not be One Piece related, but still. Hype.
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Yeah, it's definiely OP-related. It's too obvious.
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What makes you think that enough of those potential viewers out there, who could reach in over a million, would be willing to do that with a property that they don't really know that well? That's a lot of people. You can't expect enough of them to just get into it because they're new episodes of a show, a show that isn't really that popular. Yes I know it's popular relatively speaking but in the end it's a niche thing on a non-niche outlet:Cartoon Network/adult swim.
With a successful T.V. run, you don't just get latecomers from get-go. They come in gradually after a bunch of people already discovered it for themselves from the beginning and give it the ratings it needs for more advertising and more word-of-mouth. It has to work its way up, thats how it works. And why would the average viewer want to just go into a new show when it's so painfully obvious that what they're watching the first time isn't self-contained?
Again, very little of that not self contained talk applies to season 3. Because that is a very, very self contained season. There's the occasional reference to past events here and there, but it acts as one canon filler really. So I'm really not going to side on the idea that it can't work. Latecomers themselves won't get lost on that easily, because none of the events of the past really matter to the overarching story of that season. It's a self contained story about going to Sky Island and beating up a wannabe God.
I don't know the exact details of what Cartoon Network did to make it fail, I'd have to ask my friend. But basically I know it was a matter of mismanagement on the channel's part.
Also you're neglecting to mention the very OBVIOUS difference. "Detective Conan" is an kid-centric murder show complete with graphic violence, while "One Piece" is a more a general audience "Dragonball"-esque action/adventure pirate story. One is more broadly understood and appealing than the other.
Cartoon Network had no hand in this. Williams Streets handles everything. And anyways, listen, I've discussed this with many people as well, Detective Conan had it's chance for thirteen episodes (I believe it was thirteen or twelve) before it was mismanaged. It was a show that no one was willing to watch though, and when they did not prove to AS that they'd watch it. AS gave the show a crappy slot and let it die until the rights ran out.
Detective Conan is a family show with a little boy in the lead, that does not automatically make it kid centric. It's still an all ages mystery murder show. And while One Piece doesn't show as much graphic violence, (especially since very few people die on screen) it still is in a similar enough boat tone wise. They both star lighthearted enough characters, whose adventures range from comedic, to stressful, etc. Again, though you have a good point. The difference is the approach between combat, where one show features little to no combat, while the other is focused almost entirely on it. And that could be what helps keep One Piece afloat where Conan failed, (if One Piece starts from the beginning.)
You're talking about aesthetics but you're not really talking the experience of watching a show itself. It's not going to matter to the average, unassuming viewer who's only seen commercials for the most part. Aesthetics aren't going to matter when ultimately most people just want to know what's going on in the story, and most of those new viewers aren't going to have some perfect explanation of the story thus far right in front of them. When you talk about aesthetics you're almost implying that most of those people that are going to be watching Toonami are more critical than you think they are. That's way too subjective of a view to take with over thousands of people.
Also, is it really such a bad thing that it plays out like a Saturday morning cartoon? It's pretty much unanimous among fandom that the show itself is like a Saturday morning cartoon that's really fucking good. The reason it's not apparent that it's really fucking good at the beginning is because…it's only the beginning. That's usually how it works. Also "One Piece" would not be the only Saturday-morning -esque action cartoon out there in recent memory that's pulled in a large adult fanbase. Just look at "Avatar: the Last Airbender".
It really does matter. You seem to have more trusts in viewers than I do, but they can be very shallow. It mostly depends on why the viewer tunes in for the first place, they watch a show to understand if the story works for their taste, and aesthetics do play a role in it.
Yes but in Avatar's case it was released during morning hours, One Piece will be released late at night, and we're not sure how many of the necessary viewers for a Saturday morning fare will watch it. I think there's a chance it could work, but remember there is a bit of hostility to that time of night.
How do you quantify "word-of-mouth" fans? The fanbase is so varied and what could be considered word-of-mouth comes at different levels. Word-of-mouth just means more people get exposed to it and they tell other people about it, that's it.
And if by "word-of-mouth" you mean the people currently talking about it a lot online. Well vocal and opinionated fans don't necessarily represent the vast majority, or for that matter represent the ideas and preferences of the people that watch it at large. Which for the case of Toonami could be a lot of people who don't watch anime online or read manga.
That's my point, we can't really tell outside of assumptions where the majority of American fans started to become actual fans. What were the seasons that drew them in, we don't have polls or anything, just assumptions to guess. I personally don't think the majority started in the beginning, but I also don't think the majority started in the middle. I think it's more of a half and half thing. Again though, it's an assumption I am going to believe for myself, until I am given some hard proof pointing otherwise. Note, I don't need proof that absolutely says yes, just points.
Like I showed you, the 4Kids dub actually did well on Cartoon Network, it's just that it didn't catch on like it could've had 4Kids not handled it. Seeing a better, more faithful version of a show you were already somewhat familiar with certainly has a different appeal to the casual viewer, as opposed to new episodes of a show you never really got into. I mean the whole "Naruto Uncut" thing seems to be working for Toonami now, would be even more effective with "One Piece".
You have a point in the beginning, though the bold part I still don't agree with.
And Naruto didn't have a botched dub, so that helped.
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[http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/47118015742/new-piece-this-week#=
May or may not be One Piece related, but still. Hype.
"It's a secret"? OMG…did they get Slayers?! XP Nah, but in all seriousness, this sounds promising for OP (hopefully). But damn, now I can't wait for Saturday! ><](http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/47118015742/new-piece-this-week#=)
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Looks like they just said on their tumblr it's not related to "One Piece".
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Here is the full quote for those of you skeptical.
It’s a short “piece” of creative that is in no way related to the show, “One Piece.” Hopefully that’s definitive enough for some folks!
http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/47130191752/no-we-arent-talking-about-one-piece
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Cartoon Network had no hand in this. Williams Streets handles everything.
For the record, Cartoon Network was the one who actually bought the license to Detective Conan, rather than William Street/Adult Swim. A couple news sites, such as ICv2 reported this. Notable that they report Adult Swim's acquisitions separately. Regardless of what happened, Cartoon Network ended up giving the rights to Adult Swim to air (almost wonder if it was forced, because it was reported the person in charge of scheduling back then hated it).
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Looks like they just said on their tumblr it's not related to "One Piece".
And like that they've lost me.
If anything, I'm no longer super anxious for Saturday anymore. XP
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And like that they've lost me.
If anything, I'm no longer super anxious for Saturday anymore. XP
For all we know, they could be announcing the 11pm hour on one of these two Saturdays. That indirectly helps One Piece. :)
For the record, Cartoon Network was the one who actually bought the license to Detective Conan, rather than William Street/Adult Swim. A couple news sites, such as ICv2 reported this. Notable that they report Adult Swim's acquisitions separately. Regardless of what happened, Cartoon Network ended up giving the rights to Adult Swim to air (almost wonder if it was forced, because it was reported the person in charge of scheduling back then hated it).
Then that puts a different spin on this story almost entirely. However, I don't believe it was as simple as the guy hating it. You don't buy the rights to a show and then give it away out of spite. That's not profitable. My guess is they did it because of the "questionable content"; back in 2004, TV was not as free as it is today in terms of what you can really accomplish censorship wise, and Anime has it the worst. The entire show is based around murder plots, and that's difficult to edit out in an anime that was already complete.
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For all we know, they could be announcing the 11pm hour on one of these two Saturdays. That indirectly helps One Piece. :)
That may very well be, but even so, that's no reason (for me) to be super excited for this Saturday anymore than I am for any other Saturday. Hell, I would've taken something like a one-minute promo (like what they did w/ Bleach) teasing at One Piece, but that doesn't seem to be the case. Here's hoping that whatever comes this Saturday is at least interesting.
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Then that puts a different spin on this story almost entirely. However, I don't believe it was as simple as the guy hating it. You don't buy the rights to a show and then give it away out of spite. That's not profitable. My guess is they did it because of the "questionable content"; back in 2004, TV was not as free as it is today in terms of what you can really accomplish censorship wise, and Anime has it the worst. The entire show is based around murder plots, and that's difficult to edit out in an anime that was already complete.
Oh, when I meant the guy in charge of scheduling, I was referring to the Adult Swim person, rather than Cartoon Network's. Sorry, should've been more specific.
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Oh, when I meant the guy in charge of scheduling, I was referring to the Adult Swim person, rather than Cartoon Network's. Sorry, should've been more specific.
Oh Lazzo? Yeah, he hated most anime, and certainly was vocal about his dislike of it. That probably has to do with the show getting death slotted after not performing; though in all honesty, the show should've never been there anyways.
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Here is the full quote for those of you skeptical.
http://toonami.tumblr.com/post/47130191752/no-we-arent-talking-about-one-piece
Oh, well. sigh
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Again, very little of that not self contained talk applies to season 3. Because that is a very, very self contained season. There's the occasional reference to past events here and there, but it acts as one canon filler really. So I'm really not going to side on the idea that it can't work. Latecomers themselves won't get lost on that easily, because none of the events of the past really matter to the overarching story of that season. It's a self contained story about going to Sky Island and beating up a wannabe God.
Again, that's fine and all, but how are you going to convince the average viewers who's new to the series, who's just seeing some commercials or something, that it's worth their time to watch new episodes of a show that hasn't even been running on T.V. regularly in recent memory?
Detective Conan is a family show with a little boy in the lead, that does not automatically make it kid centric.
The main characters are kids, it's targeted towards kids in many other territories. And yes you could call it a family show too. If we're going to discuss that difference then it's just an argument over word choice.
It's still an all ages mystery murder show. And while One Piece doesn't show as much graphic violence, (especially since very few people die on screen) it still is in a similar enough boat tone wise. They both star lighthearted enough characters, whose adventures range from comedic, to stressful, etc. Again, though you have a good point. The difference is the approach between combat, where one show features little to no combat, while the other is focused almost entirely on it. And that could be what helps keep One Piece afloat where Conan failed, (if One Piece starts from the beginning.)
So the premise of each show isn't enough to really set them that much apart in terms of the context of what we're discussing?
It really does matter. You seem to have more trusts in viewers than I do, but they can be very shallow. It mostly depends on why the viewer tunes in for the first place, they watch a show to understand if the story works for their taste, and aesthetics do play a role in it.
If viewers were really that "shallow" than how they do ever get into a different type of show in the first place? If they're going to judge a show based on the first few episodes not being a hook than that's actually being over-critical, not shallow. And really with a new show like "One Piece" we know there's a big fanbase for it, and that there's a lot more people who could get into it too. And if you asked the average person where they'd want to watch a story, they'd say from the beginning. Viewers aren't going to care as much about "better aesthetics" or how "self-contained" a story arc may be if they don't have a reference point.
Yes but in Avatar's case it was released during morning hours, One Piece will be released late at night, and we're not sure how many of the necessary viewers for a Saturday morning fare will watch it. I think there's a chance it could work, but remember there is a bit of hostility to that time of night.
The people that watch Toonami are into action/adventure cartoons, including the new "Thundercats" and "Sym Bionic Titan" that play on the block, which are Saturday morning fare. I don't know what hostility you're talking, but ultimately it depends on whether it appeals to that 18-34 year-old demo, regardless of the timeslot.
That's my point, we can't really tell outside of assumptions where the majority of American fans started to become actual fans. What were the seasons that drew them in, we don't have polls or anything, just assumptions to guess. I personally don't think the majority started in the beginning, but I also don't think the majority started in the middle. I think it's more of a half and half thing. Again though, it's an assumption I am going to believe for myself, until I am given some hard proof pointing otherwise. Note, I don't need proof that absolutely says yes, just points.
At this point it's very safe to assume that the vast majority of people who are now into "One Piece" got into it through the 4Kids, whether they actually enjoyed it or not. They ultimately became fans because of that initial exposure.
And again, we're talking about new fans getting into the show. And when you're talking about getting that general T.V. audience, you should take the broadest type of approach. Starting at season 3 or what have you is not the broadest approach.
You have a point in the beginning, though the bold part I still don't agree with.
And Naruto didn't have a botched dub, so that helped
Why would "Naruto" not having a botched dub even matter? Like I said, the 4Kids dub actually did well, people actually watched it consistently. So why wouldn't people be willing to give it another go?
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And again, we're talking about new fans getting into the show. And when you're talking about getting that general T.V. audience, you should take the broadest type of approach. Starting at season 3 or what have you is not the broadest approach.
It's broad enough because it's so self contained. It's its own story that people don't have to understand the greater world. And just by watching the characters, the viewers understand their personalities. No reference to their dreams are really made, and their motivations in the grand scheme of the story don't come into conflict in the story of Jaya and Skypiea.
Edit: In all honesty, I think you proved your point much better than I have in terms of saying how the early episodes would appeal well enough, though I still don't think you've convinced me about the episode count. Just because these early episodes can appeal to viewers well enough, that doesn't change the huge possibility of viewers growing increasingly impatient with a once a week schedule. You say they would jump ship if the show started in the middle of a new story arc, but I can't believe it. I've stated before that season 3 is so self contained that people don't need a reference point, and I stick by that opinion until the very end.