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    • Tsukento
      Tsukento @pyromonki
      @pyromonki last edited by
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      @RPGJay:

      Just because it's intended for younger audiences does not give any series the right to be…whatever in the hell that was.

      Dragon Ball was already intended for kids. SD is pretty much for the slightly younger ones. Older fans can look at this as an amusing take (what with it being Super Deformed). Honestly, expecting it to be something "awesome" is gonna set you up for disappointment.

      @InvaderP:

      Remember that hilarious DBZ filler where they reenacted the Cell Games with actors putting on ridiculous costumes with huge heads and Mr. Satan defeated Cell? This kinda reminded me of that. But it's a magazine for little kids, so I guess it's okay.

      Haha, it does.

      I'd say Carue was a Lucky Ducky | YouTube Page

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      • Tokoro Ataru
        Tokoro Ataru @Tsukento
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        If they wanted it to be amusing, then it should be something that at last winks and nudges at continuity or actually seems like it knows what it is and has fun with it. (like the "Cell Games" performance in the anime) It just seems like mini-recaps, that's probably the problem.

        Y'know, Negima WAS awesome…

        For the first 18 volumes.

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        • R
          RPGJay
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          I wasn't expecting it to be awesome, but that doesn't mean it wasn't really really dumb.

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          • pyromonki
            pyromonki @Tokoro Ataru
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            @Tokoro:

            If they wanted it to be amusing, then it should be something that at last winks and nudges at continuity or actually seems like it knows what it is and has fun with it. (like the "Cell Games" performance in the anime) It just seems like mini-recaps, that's probably the problem.

            They actually did. Did you not notice when Vegeta got shot, Goku dug vegeta out of the dirt, rather than bury him?

            http://mangastream.com/read/dragon_ball_sd/45372691/7

            I thought it was pretty humorous.

            if you want to check out my game progress: http://soggybreadgm.tumblr.com/

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            • Samwize78
              Samwize78 @InvaderP
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              @InvaderP:

              Remember that hilarious DBZ filler where they reenacted the Cell Games with actors putting on ridiculous costumes with huge heads and Mr. Satan defeated Cell? This kinda reminded me of that. But it's a magazine for little kids, so I guess it's okay.

              That should be the next DragonBall SD issue. The Cell Games.

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              • Sniper King
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                Guys, it doesn't really matter.
                Say a kid reads this, gets interested in DB, then goes out and reads the original. Now they know what really happened.

                Anyways, I like it. It's cute. And it's in COLOR. Also, it can be pretty funny (to me).
                Hope they do the cell games.

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                • DoctorPhil
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                  So… I decided to start watching dragon ball kai again and I noticed it ended after the cell arc. So why no Buu saga? Did they announce there would be no Buu saga a long time ago or just before they ended kai?

                  As for the SD comic, it needed humor, like the first one, that one wasn't bad.

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                  • Samwize78
                    Samwize78 @DoctorPhil
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                    @DoctorPhil:

                    So… I decided to start watching dragon ball kai again and I noticed it ended after the cell arc. So why no Buu saga? Did they announce there would be no Buu saga a long time ago or just before they ended kai?

                    They ended it for Toriko and because it was losing popularity.

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                    • JulieYBM
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                      Kanzentai wrote a big article on it (citing financial reports). Daizenshuu EX also did a big podcast episode on it. Basically, Toei never promised they would do the Majin Boo arc, they only promised one arc at a time (Saiyan-Freeza and then later Artificial Humans-Cell). Since the franchise wasn't pulling in a lot of money they decided to not do Majin Boo.

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                      • DoctorPhil
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                        Damn that sucks balls, that was my favorite arc as a kid. Well, thanks for the info.

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                        • Robby
                          Robby @DoctorPhil
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                          @DoctorPhil:

                          So… I decided to start watching dragon ball kai again and I noticed it ended after the cell arc. So why no Buu saga?

                          Because they got greedy and started leaving the filler in around mid-Frieza to create more episodes, so it lost momentum.

                          Whole series should have been done in about 100 eps. That they only managed Cell in that time speaks of how much padding was left in.

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                          • maxterdexter
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                            So, dragon ball kai is a parade of dissapointment in all versions eh?

                            Latin America in the 90's had the best anime (other than japan itself) because the dubbing companies went the extra mile and used the japanese source and translated that.

                            Today I catched Dragon Ball Kai on tv.

                            Worse translation than the original
                            They changed every voice actor (excep the narrator) I guess that the crap that they were being made to dub, in the end they quit and now it isn't Goku doing Ben 10.. is Ben 10 doing Goku.
                            The music is different than the original, i'm checking the chapter to see if it was changed.

                            3DS FC: 0516-7666-3837

                            SW-4128-8032-0729

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                            • Samwize78
                              Samwize78 @maxterdexter
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                              The music might be different since Kikuchi just recently replaced Yamamoto. Or is it completely made-up music specifically for this dub?
                              @maxterdexter:

                              So, dragon ball kai is a parade of dissapointment in all versions eh?

                              I consider the U.S. dub to be good.

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                              • Samwize78
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                                The last (98th) episode of DragonBall Kai will be available on Blu-ray and DVD when it hits the store shelves later this year. So, the ever elusive episode will be out, completing the series. It is titled: "Bring Peace to the Future! Goku's spirit is Eternal".

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                                • choperman
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                                  QUESTION!!!!

                                  robby touched on it earlier in this thread, people say dragonball may be the most influential manga of all time, I was wondering what you think the good influnces and bad influnces are (or what mistakes other authors should try not to repeat)

                                  Member of Beelzebub is Freakin' Awesome Group

                                  what I'm catching up on currently: Gintama, lone wolf & cub, Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind, and lost in poem (by our very own AP member GEPPETTOSMONSTER)

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                                  • Robby
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                                    Good influence- the energy and over the top combat, and some character archetypes

                                    Bad influence- tournaments, training arcs, and power levels.

                                    Dragonball actually kept its training arcs interesting and short, or skipped them entirely… but other series grab ahold of them and use them as actual arcs.

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                                    • Mr M
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                                      but i liked the tournaments in db , unlike in other mangas

                                      Originally Posted by Kitsune Inferno

                                      You are a treasure.

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                                      • Smudger
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                                        You know after seeing this thread I think'll I'll have to go through my DB collection. I kind of miss the goofy stuff the z team did back in the early days, even if it was sometimes a little meh.

                                        Oh has it been a while.

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                                        • K
                                          Kareem Said
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                                          I've begun reading Dragon Ball a series I always dissed as being bland and shallow. I admitted it was highly influential but I didn't think it was enjoyable in its own right. I've now read the first 45 chapters. It's far more enjoyable than I thought it would be. I can't believe I used to diss it so much. One of my favorite things about it is that reading it I feel like I'm reading the birth of modern Shonen. Because that's what Toriyama did, he created modern Shonen battle manga essentially. It's also funny how Roshi was seen as an uber badass back then when by the time Vegeta and Nappa showed up he was small fry (although he was old so that probably factored into it at least a bit.)

                                          I have a question. I've been reading it on Manga Reader and the scans I've been reading so far have been crisp and clear. But I look at some other scans and they're very poor and hard to read. Can anyone find me a site that has all around good quality scans? Not to mention I've generally had a rocky relationship with Manga Reader I almost got a few malwares from that site. Same with Manga Fox and Spectrum Nexus. Most manga sites just seem to hate my computer :sad:

                                          My Hero Academia is my favorite manga series right now. At least so long as the high of its greatness remains. United States of Smash.

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                                          • Robby
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                                            This post is deleted!
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                                            • MarcelloF
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                                              You could (SHOULD) just buy the series you know.

                                              A lot of the early chapters are of much better quality, because a group began rescanning them from the Kanzenban I believe. I have no idea how far they've gotten. You'll have no luck in finding better quality version from the later chapters, because those low quality ones are just the only ones available.

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                                              • eerie
                                                eerie @Robby
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                                                @RobbyBevard:

                                                Because they got greedy and started leaving the filler in around mid-Frieza to create more episodes, so it lost momentum.

                                                Whole series should have been done in about 100 eps. That they only managed Cell in that time speaks of how much padding was left in.

                                                "Lost momentum."

                                                To who? To the japanese viewers? That's why they cancelled?

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                                                • Hiroy
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                                                  Glad you are liking it Kareem. What I do like about DB is its interesting take on folklore and how the world has its own simple tint of science fiction(like capsule technology, mecha, and igloo shaped houses). Of course the battles were good too, but that's a small reason why I like DB so much. More the less the same reason I like One Piece as well.

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                                                  • kouch_lee
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                                                    I swear someone has to come with those capsules in real life. I want to bring a portable house in my pocket.

                                                    It's awesome how Toriyama created some things in DragonBall that are incredibly iconic. The capsules are one, but also the Nyoi-bo, the Kinton, the Saiyan Scouters (who doesn't want a Scouter??) or the Fusion Dance. IT was a fucking hit during my childhood, everyone mimicked the Fusion Dance during breaks on school.

                                                    And then there's the Kame Hame Ha.

                                                    Maybe kids nowadays growing up with One Piece have the same sensations with things like the Den Den Mushis, the Rokushiki Style, Franky's cola moments. . .You know, iconic stuff like that, things you always remember no matter how much time has passed since the last time you saw them.

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                                                    • m00n
                                                      m00n @Mr M
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                                                      @metteminne:

                                                      but i liked the tournaments in db , unlike in other mangas

                                                      I think the good stuff from Dragonball is marterial arts tournaments and adventure. The bad stuff is when marterial arts tournaments turned into save the world with powerups, and adventure turned into training.

                                                      I would have liked it more if the last tournament had not been interrupted by Boos summoning or the Cell one not preceded by that many episodes of cyborg hunting. As for Tournaments in other manga, I think it's bad execution not a bad general idea.The training arcs used to be the adventure arcs and they definitely took a turn to the worse. And power levels are bullshit yeah. I'm glad Oda has largely stayed away from them. Although even he can't withstand their temptations at all times. They are such an easy way of fakeing challenge and progress where there is none beyond those numbers. So uncreative.

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                                                      • Kaiolino
                                                        Kaiolino @kouch_lee
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                                                        @kouch_lee:

                                                        I swear someone has to come with those capsules in real life. I want to bring a portable house in my pocket.

                                                        It's awesome how Toriyama created some things in DragonBall that are incredibly iconic. The capsules are one, but also the Nyoi-bo, the Kinton, the Saiyan Scouters (who doesn't want a Scouter??) or the Fusion Dance. IT was a fucking hit during my childhood, everyone mimicked the Fusion Dance during breaks on school.

                                                        And then there's the Kame Hame Ha.

                                                        Maybe kids nowadays growing up with One Piece have the same sensations with things like the Den Den Mushis, the Rokushiki Style, Franky's cola moments. . .You know, iconic stuff like that, things you always remember no matter how much time has passed since the last time you saw them.

                                                        Kinto-Un and the Nyoibo came from Journey to the West.

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                                                        • Samwize78
                                                          Samwize78 @Kareem Said
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                                                          @Kareem:

                                                          Can anyone find me a site that has all around good quality scans? Not to mention I've generally had a rocky relationship with Manga Reader I almost got a few malwares from that site. Same with Manga Fox and Spectrum Nexus. Most manga sites just seem to hate my computer :sad:

                                                          I really don't use any other manga-viewing sites besides mangareader and mangastream. The thing is though is that you might want to buy the volumes yourself, since once the series jumps to "Z" in the manga, the scans aren't that good because they are flopped and have major mistranslations. Though I wouldn't know exactly what arc in the series, since I own all 42 volumes of DragonBall myself and just read them like that.

                                                          And on the subject of tournaments in other mangas, the only other one I liked was the one in YuYu Hakusho.

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                                                          • kouch_lee
                                                            kouch_lee @Kaiolino
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                                                            @Kaiolino:

                                                            Kinto-Un and the Nyoibo came from Journey to the West.

                                                            Shit, I forgot.

                                                            Anyway, no one on school knew that, and we all accepted it was a Dragonball invention, and DB really helped to "iconize" it to us.

                                                            But hell, you're right.

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                                                            • K
                                                              KaizokuOLuffy
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                                                              Why do you people hate Battle Powers (Power Levels)? I think it's pretty awesome to have a clearer picture of who is stronger than who…

                                                              Also,"DB Kai" wasn't cancelled.

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                                                              • Tokoro Ataru
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                                                                Outside some series where the tournament IS the story for the most part (Konjiki no Gash!, Law of Ueki), there are a few other series that had some great tourney arcs. YYH was mentioned but I also like Flame of Recca's tourney arc…and Otokojuku's since it took up a major part of the series and is where it really became WTF awesomeness.

                                                                But the way Toriyama used it early on was more or less allowing for moments where the fighting would be the focus for a period in breaks from his "adventuring" parts of the series...the problem being that since the tournaments were more popular than the adventure stories, the fighting ended up taking front and center from the Saiyan arrival onwards. (but you could see the creep slowly in the adventure parts, considering the RRA arc had more fights than the first DB hunt, then the Piccolo arc had even more fights focused with still some adventures...but then by the Saiyan arc it is all mostly "train and fight" outside some aspects of the Namek arc early on)

                                                                Y'know, Negima WAS awesome…

                                                                For the first 18 volumes.

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                                                                • MarcelloF
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                                                                  Namek added some adventure elements back, though.

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                                                                  • Samwize78
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                                                                    I like the idea of battle powers too. During the Namek arc it gave you an idea of whose power was greater and just how much of a threat Freeza was because no one elses battle power could match his (besides Gokū). I wonder what Gokū's battle power would have been in Super Saiyan form fighting Freeza.

                                                                    Also the only reason Kai was not continued was because they only promised one saga of the anime at a time. And they just ended after Cell. And because they had to rap it up for the Toriko anime.

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                                                                    • K
                                                                      KaizokuOLuffy
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                                                                      150 Million for SSJ Goku-Namek.

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                                                                      • Robby
                                                                        Robby @eerie
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                                                                        @eerie:

                                                                        "Lost momentum."

                                                                        To who? To the japanese viewers? That's why they cancelled?

                                                                        Lost momentum to the spirit of the manga.

                                                                        If the entire series had been filler free as it was intended and originally advertised, it would have fit about 110 episodes pretty easily, and they would have gotten the entire series to fit into the time it ran. By cutting out episodes that were pure filler (like Garlic Junior, Otherworld tournament, Gohan in High School, and random training episodes) they should have been able to ditch some 60 or 70 episodes whole cloth, and by trimming the pace down on the padded recap "lets just stare at each other and taunt while powering up for 20 minutes" or "lets spend an entire episode on Frieza transforming into his final form which took one panel in the manga" episodes, they should have been able to easily cut the count in half from there.

                                                                        The average manga chapter of 19 pages equals about 6 or 7 minutes of screen time normally paced. Less if its heavy fighting, more if its a lot of dialogue. Basically, on average two chapters fit comfortably per episode, three chapters per episode if its fight heavy. If they'd only done the manga material and kept up their early pace, the heavily padded 291 episode original would have easily trimmed down to about 110 episodes of decent pace.

                                                                        Math ahead.[hide]
                                                                        Instead the padding was back in force come Freeza, and especially Cell. By cutting filler they were done with the original 39 episodes in 17, which was the first 45 chapters of the manga, about 2.6 chapters per episode. (And that was with them still leaving in a lot of filler, like stuff with Bardock, Gohan getting lost, and Krillin visiting Chichi. Trimming that stuff out they could have gotten to 3)

                                                                        They were done with the entire Freeza saga by episode 54, which was originally episode 107, chapter 135 of the manga. At that point they were able to cut Garlic Junior entirely, which put them at 118. So 78 chapters in 37 episodes, or down to only 2.1 chapters per episode, and that's with the fillerific 10 episode Garlic counted. Not counting, thats 68 chapters in 37 episodes, a much less impressive 1.8 chapters per episode . (While still leaving in some utter worst filler in the series crap filler like Bulma the frog.)

                                                                        And then, between episodes 54-100 they were only able to manage the Cell saga, which in the manga was chapters 136-226. A lot of material, a little shorter than Frieza and Vegeta combined. But that's 90 chapters in 50 episodes… again a pace of 1.8. They barely trimmed the filler fat on it at all. If they'd kept the pace they'd had on Vegeta (which was still leaving in a lot of fat) they should have been able to get through it in 30-35 episodes instead of 50.

                                                                        Instead they went "nah, forget putting effort into this" and just left it bloated and to fill out the run.

                                                                        325 chapters of the "Z" saga. 3 chapters per episode, (nearly the pace they had for the first few episodes, and with filler still) comes out to 109 episodes, just a little more than they did. A more bloated and with filler 2 episodes per chapter comes out to 162. A lot more episodes than they did of Kai, but still easily only half the extremely bloated original anime run of 291 episodes.

                                                                        For the record, the Buu saga in the manga was 98 chapters, a little longer than Cell, It should have been doable in 35-40 episodes... and had Cell ended around episode 80 like it should have... [/hide]

                                                                        Basically at the start of Kai they were easily fitting nearly three manga chapters per episode, and that was with filler still in there. By the middle of Frieza, they were down to 2 chapters per episode, and by Cell it was less than that.

                                                                        Still an improvement over the series original pace of 1.1 chapters per episode, but not by much.

                                                                        eerie Lord Starfish 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                                        • Tokoro Ataru
                                                                          Tokoro Ataru @MarcelloF
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                                                                          @MarcelloF:

                                                                          Namek added some adventure elements back, though.

                                                                          Somewhat…but most in the early part of the story when everyone was scrambling to get the DBs. By the point the Ginyu arrive, though, the adventure stuff was done for.

                                                                          Y'know, Negima WAS awesome…

                                                                          For the first 18 volumes.

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                                                                          • Samwize78
                                                                            Samwize78 @KaizokuOLuffy
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                                                                            @KaizokuOLuffy:

                                                                            150 Million for SSJ Goku-Namek.

                                                                            That's WAY over 9,000.

                                                                            –- Update From New Post Merge ---

                                                                            I'm actually watching Kai on Nicktoons right now.

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                                                                            • K
                                                                              Kareem Said @kouch_lee
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                                                                              @kouch_lee:

                                                                              I swear someone has to come with those capsules in real life. I want to bring a portable house in my pocket.

                                                                              It's awesome how Toriyama created some things in DragonBall that are incredibly iconic. The capsules are one, but also the Nyoi-bo, the Kinton, the Saiyan Scouters (who doesn't want a Scouter??) or the Fusion Dance. IT was a fucking hit during my childhood, everyone mimicked the Fusion Dance during breaks on school.

                                                                              And then there's the Kame Hame Ha.

                                                                              Maybe kids nowadays growing up with One Piece have the same sensations with things like the Den Den Mushis, the Rokushiki Style, Franky's cola moments. . .You know, iconic stuff like that, things you always remember no matter how much time has passed since the last time you saw them.

                                                                              I will remember this because my dream is to create a Shonen-esque series as great and imaginitive as Dragon Ball and One Piece.

                                                                              My Hero Academia is my favorite manga series right now. At least so long as the high of its greatness remains. United States of Smash.

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                                                                              • JulieYBM
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                                                                                I liked battle powers too. The guidebook and magazine listings for more obscure characters were pretty cool, too. I really don't get why people act like they're the bane of the series, though. When did an exact number really ever decide a fight? The dub confuses things by replacing 'ki' with 'power level', but ki was always a pretty big part of fights as far back as Gokû versus Tenshinhan.

                                                                                Anyhow, Kanzentai updated their The Evolution of Dragon Ball Kai article to inlude the fiscal reports for all of 2011. The short of it is that sales tanked pretty badly.

                                                                                Just for reference, Freeze assumes his final form in episode #83 of Dragon Ball Z. Said episode covered all of chapter #303 and the first eleven pages of #304, so it didn't exactly take a full episode to cover only one panel. Episode #84 finished chapter #304 and #305, while episode #85 covered chapter #306 (the first half of the episode is expanded fighting between Vegeta and Freeza).

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                                                                                • Robby
                                                                                  Robby @JulieYBM
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                                                                                  @Yuugi's:

                                                                                  Just for reference, Freeze assumes his final form in episode #83 of Dragon Ball Z. Said episode covered all of chapter #303 and the first eleven pages of #304, so it didn't exactly take a full episode to cover only one panel. Episode #84 finished chapter #304 and #305, while episode #85 covered chapter #306 (the first half of the episode is expanded fighting between Vegeta and Freeza).

                                                                                  Maybe I'm recalling Cell's final form taking an entire episode, and Goku's Super 3 taking forever.

                                                                                  Goku's transformation to Super for the first time was a 1 panel ordeal as well that was a lot longer in the anime, but thats a rare case where I agree with making it bigger and more dramatic and playing up the moment.

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                                                                                  • MarcelloF
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                                                                                    Haven't seen the anime episode, but wasn't it supposed to take long to turn into SSJ 3?

                                                                                    @Tokoro:

                                                                                    Somewhat…but most in the early part of the story when everyone was scrambling to get the DBs. By the point the Ginyu arrive, though, the adventure stuff was done for.

                                                                                    True..

                                                                                    Also, for the record, I totally oversaw that you mentioned Namek in your post. If I had seen it, I wouldn't have posted that.

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                                                                                    • JulieYBM
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                                                                                      Cell took on his perfect form in episodes #159 (chapter #381 and the first two of #382) and #160 (the rest of #382 and the first page of #383). As per the summaries for each episode, stuff still happens, and both episodes actually look incredible. Episodes #161 finishes #383, covering only thirteen pages, but since it's an Uchiyama episode I'm glad no more was covered. Episode #162 is the Final Flash episode, covering chapters #384-385 and the first two pages of #386 (supervised and key animated by Yamamuro Tadayoshi).

                                                                                      Kanzentai doesn't have the Majin Boo arc episodes added to their guide yet, but the transformation (plus explaination) was still only about seven minutes long (five and a half without Gokû's little speech). It takes a few panels in the comic, prompting Gokû to apologize for how long it took.

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                                                                                      • Tokoro Ataru
                                                                                        Tokoro Ataru @MarcelloF
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                                                                                        @MarcelloF:

                                                                                        True..

                                                                                        Also, for the record, I totally oversaw that you mentioned Namek in your post. If I had seen it, I wouldn't have posted that.

                                                                                        Nah, no problem about that. Besides, I actually thought that the whole scenario where "fight" and "journey" was fused was somewhat fun during the whole sequence where Gohan and Krillin were chased by Dodoria. Somehow the first part of the Namek arc did have a lot of interesting aspects, though I am somewhat split over the idea of Vegeta essentially picking off the elites Frieza brought to the planet at that point. (on one hand it allowed for him to sort of show he was on no ones side, but it just never really gave a logistical, interesting fight for Gohan or Krillin until the Ginyu…and even then they seemed like they were mostly used for stall tactics for the rest of the arc for Vegeta/Piccolo/Goku to intervene...outside the bad-ass moment where Gohan knocked around Frieza's second form for goring Krillin)

                                                                                        Y'know, Negima WAS awesome…

                                                                                        For the first 18 volumes.

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                                                                                        • Robby
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                                                                                          The namek saga would have been almost entirely the same up until the Frieza battle if Bulma, Gohan and Krillin hadn't gone, and Goku had just arrived a week later, except for one major thing.

                                                                                          They saved Dende.

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                                                                                          • JulieYBM
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                                                                                            They also saved Vegeta from Reacoom's Eraser Gun, buying a few more minutes for Gokû to arrive.

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                                                                                            • Tokoro Ataru
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                                                                                              I didn't say Gohan, Krillin and Bulma were useless. Obviously what they did sort of set up everything that would be up for grabs in the battle phase of the arc, screwing around with Frieza and Vegeta simultaneously while they were essentially at war with one another.

                                                                                              I was saying mostly they didn't get any real fights during Namek outside mostly stalling and when they did it seemed like for the most part they were outshined by Vegeta (who took Guldo from them or took care of Dodoria after he was done chasing them), Piccolo or Goku. The only real "fight" where they were able to handle something or that did something impressive was probably Gohan vs. Frieza, and even then it was more just Gohan's rage taking over and giving him that boost that held him off until Piccolo finally arrived.

                                                                                              Y'know, Negima WAS awesome…

                                                                                              For the first 18 volumes.

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                                                                                              • Samwize78
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                                                                                                The Namek arc was good in my opinion. It was basically a race between Vegeta, Gohan & Kuririn, and Freeza to see who can find the dragon balls first. I agree too that Gohan and Kuririn weren't much help at all. Kuririn especially; all he did really in the Freeza fight was blast Vegeta so he could get a power up.

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                                                                                                • eerie
                                                                                                  eerie @Robby
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                                                                                                  @RobbyBevard:

                                                                                                  Lost momentum to the spirit of the manga.

                                                                                                  That's all good and true - and obvious. But you're saying that's why they cancelled? Because the people in charge were like "we lost the spirit of the manga. we suck let's quit animating this." Or was it something more practical, like ratings?

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                                                                                                  • Robby
                                                                                                    Robby @eerie
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                                                                                                    @eerie:

                                                                                                    That's all good and true - and obvious. But you're saying that's why they cancelled? Because the people in charge were like "we lost the spirit of the manga. we suck let's quit animating this." Or was it something more practical, like ratings?

                                                                                                    I'm saying it was canceled at 104 episodes… and they could have easily finished the whole thing in that amount of time, regardless of whatever reason it was canceled at that point. Instead of leaving a full 1/3 of it untouched. But they got lazy or greedy along the way and left it padded.

                                                                                                    So now its incomplete and it'll affect future dvd sales, etc. etc.

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                                                                                                    • Lord Starfish
                                                                                                      Lord Starfish @Robby
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                                                                                                      @RobbyBevard:

                                                                                                      Lost momentum to the spirit of the manga.

                                                                                                      If the entire series had been filler free as it was intended and originally advertised, it would have fit about 110 episodes pretty easily, and they would have gotten the entire series to fit into the time it ran. By cutting out episodes that were pure filler (like Garlic Junior, Otherworld tournament, Gohan in High School, and random training episodes) they should have been able to ditch some 60 or 70 episodes whole cloth, and by trimming the pace down on the padded recap "lets just stare at each other and taunt while powering up for 20 minutes" or "lets spend an entire episode on Frieza transforming into his final form which took one panel in the manga" episodes, they should have been able to easily cut the count in half from there.

                                                                                                      The average manga chapter of 19 pages equals about 6 or 7 minutes of screen time normally paced. Less if its heavy fighting, more if its a lot of dialogue. Basically, on average two chapters fit comfortably per episode, three chapters per episode if its fight heavy. If they'd only done the manga material and kept up their early pace, the heavily padded 291 episode original would have easily trimmed down to about 110 episodes of decent pace.

                                                                                                      Math ahead.[hide]
                                                                                                      Instead the padding was back in force come Freeza, and especially Cell. By cutting filler they were done with the original 39 episodes in 17, which was the first 45 chapters of the manga, about 2.6 chapters per episode. (And that was with them still leaving in a lot of filler, like stuff with Bardock, Gohan getting lost, and Krillin visiting Chichi. Trimming that stuff out they could have gotten to 3)

                                                                                                      They were done with the entire Freeza saga by episode 54, which was originally episode 107, chapter 135 of the manga. At that point they were able to cut Garlic Junior entirely, which put them at 118. So 78 chapters in 37 episodes, or down to only 2.1 chapters per episode, and that's with the fillerific 10 episode Garlic counted. Not counting, thats 68 chapters in 37 episodes, a much less impressive 1.8 chapters per episode . (While still leaving in some utter worst filler in the series crap filler like Bulma the frog.)

                                                                                                      And then, between episodes 54-100 they were only able to manage the Cell saga, which in the manga was chapters 136-226. A lot of material, a little shorter than Frieza and Vegeta combined. But that's 90 chapters in 50 episodes… again a pace of 1.8. They barely trimmed the filler fat on it at all. If they'd kept the pace they'd had on Vegeta (which was still leaving in a lot of fat) they should have been able to get through it in 30-35 episodes instead of 50.

                                                                                                      Instead they went "nah, forget putting effort into this" and just left it bloated and to fill out the run.

                                                                                                      325 chapters of the "Z" saga. 3 chapters per episode, (nearly the pace they had for the first few episodes, and with filler still) comes out to 109 episodes, just a little more than they did. A more bloated and with filler 2 episodes per chapter comes out to 162. A lot more episodes than they did of Kai, but still easily only half the extremely bloated original anime run of 291 episodes.

                                                                                                      For the record, the Buu saga in the manga was 98 chapters, a little longer than Cell, It should have been doable in 35-40 episodes... and had Cell ended around episode 80 like it should have... [/hide]

                                                                                                      Basically at the start of Kai they were easily fitting nearly three manga chapters per episode, and that was with filler still in there. By the middle of Frieza, they were down to 2 chapters per episode, and by Cell it was less than that.

                                                                                                      Still an improvement over the series original pace of 1.1 chapters per episode, but not by much.

                                                                                                      And that was exactly the reason why I ended up dropping the series shortly after Freeza's final transformation. What's the point in doing a cut-down "true to the manga" remake of the series when said remake is still padded to Hell and back? At least DBZ had an excuse for moving at the pace of a dying turtle… and had a better soundtrack plus a better sound-director who actually knew how to use it to its full effect... and didn't randomly switch to horribly out-of-place digital animation which was also extremely lazily done and looked worse than the traditional animation multiple times every episode… Or in short, at least DBZ had some actual effort put into it.

                                                                                                      Oh, but one correction though; your average chapter of Dragon Ball was actually only fifteen pages long, not nineteen.

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                                                                                                      • Robby
                                                                                                        Robby @Lord Starfish
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                                                                                                        @Vegard:

                                                                                                        Oh, but one correction though; your average chapter of Dragon Ball was actually only fifteen pages long, not nineteen.

                                                                                                        Oh yeah. Forogt about that, I'm so used to the current standards. Plus one of those pages was a title page! Even EASIER to fit three chapters per episode than I thought then, since the average chapter would only equal 5 minutes of screen time. And most of the chapters were fast paced fight scenes!

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