some of you are over thinking the scene between kuma and zoro. i think that event was meant to show just what hell luffy goes through to save his nakama. zoro is going to become more powerful so luffy doesn't always have to put his body under such tremendous strain every time a powerful enemy threatens the crew.
Zoro and Kuma.
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i've been reading the comments, and I gotta agree with everyone in that Kuma's attack won't be long term. Think about it from a story perspective…Zoro and Mihawk face off in a huge battle, the SH are lined up cheering Zoro on. Luffy stands proudly and states Zoro will win. Everyone has full confidence in him. Lo and behold Zoro pulls off the impossible and defeats Mihawk to become The Strongest Swordsman in the World. Everyone cheering and rushing to Zoro's aid.
2 minutes later...dies from Kuma's attack? ...Anticlimactic? Hell Yes. There is nothing to indicate Kuma's attack was a time bomb that would go off after defeating Mihawk...
It makes no sense. It's a good idea that the accumulated pain would cause his death, but by suggesting this particular attack will cause his death, you are saying Kuma's attack from the past, caused MORE damage to Zoro than what Mihawk could have dealt in the present. Is it likely that if Zoro dies, and Chopper does an autopsy, he's going to discover some kind of disease slowly eating away at him to be the cause of his death? or instead Mihawks gigantic ass sword that chopped him into little itty bitty pieces :)
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Think about it from a story perspective…
2 minutes later...dies from Kuma's attack? ...Anticlimactic? Hell Yes.No …
"Anti-climactic" would be Zoro dying before he fights Mihawk.There is nothing to indicate Kuma's attack was a time bomb that would go off after defeating Mihawk…
Well, it wouldn't be a "time bomb" in the sense that it has a specific day in which it occurs. It would be more of just an accumulation of injury, slowly eating away at the strength of someone until he overexerts himself and finally snaps.
Look at it like this: many soccer/football players get injuries early on in their careers that continue to "haunt" them years later. The injury heals, but the area is weaker than before. As long as the player doesn't overextend himself, the weak spot will be fine – but if he overextends himself, then the weak spot snaps, collapses, constricts, etc, and he ends up with a career-ending complication.
This makes perfect sense in Zoro's situation -- as long as he doesn't go all out, he'll be fine, but if he goes all out (which one assumes he would against Mihawk) that's too much for his weakened body to take, and it effectively ends his career as a swordsman, if not his life.
but by suggesting this particular attack will cause his death, you are saying Kuma's attack from the past, caused MORE damage to Zoro than what Mihawk could have dealt in the present.
No, I think the idea was that the injuries from his fight with Kuma would prove to be an underlying weakness for him – something that wouldn't be much of a problem if he didn't overexert himself, but that in combination with overexertion (fighting Mihawk, for example) that would be enough to derail him.
or instead Mihawks gigantic ass sword that chopped him into little itty bitty pieces :)
No, not a disease – a weakness. Think of it in terms of Arlong arc: the wound that Mihawk gave him wasn't a "disease," was it? And yet it had a profound effect on Zoro's ability to fight the Fishmen. And when he overexerted himself against Hachi, he became too weak to do anything except glare menacingly at Arlong ... that's the same concept. Just on a much bigger level.
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(which one assumes he would against Mihawk)
One would assume he needs to go full out a couple of times before mihawk as he is still growing.
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Originally Posted by dinty:
This makes perfect sense in Zoro's situation – as long as he doesn't go all out, he'll be fine, but if he goes all out (which one assumes he would against Mihawk) that's too much for his weakened body to take, and it effectively ends his career as a swordsman, if not his life.If? Oh Zoro will overexert himself many times before his rematch with Mihawk. He even overexerts himself when he isn't fighting (taking off bandages while he's injured just becuse he can't move with them on).
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the chance of Zoro being killed due to sf Kuma did is about as big as him passing away due to siphilis-induced tuberculosis brought on by Mihawk taking him as his bitch in the alternative yaoi OP universe in which Coby is pirate king and Robin is a pantyless Antonio Baderas.
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lol u guys crack me up…
.. so zoro is now slowly bleeding to death due to a small hole in one of his major organs, with nobody notices, and when he tries to exert himself (even shit a bit) it will rupture and end his life... oh man kuma's fuked him up straight :)
lol
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(even shit a bit) it will rupture and end his life
haha what? That's a really severe case of the hemorrhoids…
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http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/494/02/
it does matter. and it's going to be important.
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http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/494/02/
it does matter. and it's going to be important.
Yeah we know. But at the moment it's being discussed if it's going to be a permanent thing, or something that will just affect Zoro for a the next arc or two (like the wound from Mihawk).
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If? Oh Zoro will overexert himself many times before his rematch with Mihawk. He even overexerts himself when he isn't fighting (taking off bandages while he's injured just becuse he can't move with them on).
True, and that's a good point, but again, as several athletes have shown, it's possible to steadily improve in the short-term, while at the same time steadily unraveling in the long term.
Or if you want an example from manga – think of Megumi's speech about Kenshin at the end of the Kyoto arc: he's just a man, he's pushing himself every time he fights. So far he's been fine, but some day the accumulation of scars and wear-and-tear is going to do him in. Since Oda is presumably familiar with the Kenshin saga, he'd also be familiar with this concept.
lol u guys crack me up…
.. so zoro is now slowly bleeding to death due to a small hole in one of his major organs, with nobody notices, and when he tries to exert himself (even shit a bit) it will rupture and end his life... oh man kuma's fuked him up straight :)
lolNo. It was never specifically said that he would bleed to death – it could be any number of things that ultimately weakens him.
Oh, and do keep in mind that it's still just a theory. None of us have staked our houses or our fortunes on it. We just thought it would be an interesting twist to the typical shonen progression of get ass kicked, get stronger. Also, it would add more significance to Zoro's meeting with Kuma.
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Also, it would add more significance to Zoro's meeting with Kuma.
It already had more then enough significance for my taste. It really doesn't need a permanent threat to Zoro's health. Besides the healing rate in OP seems to be above that of real life and other mangas.
-All the people (both Mr 3 and Luffy =P) that made a full recovery from being completly dehydrated as soon as they got moistened again.
-How the strawhats easily recovered from the frost damage Aokiji did to them.
-All the shit Usopp has had to endure.
-The electrocution of shandians and others in Skypiea.
-How easily Luffy heals stab wounds
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It already had more then enough significance for my taste. It really doesn't need a permanent threat to Zoro's health. Besides the healing rate in OP seems to be above that of real life and other mangas.
-How the strawhats easily recovered from the frost damage Aokiji did to them.
-All the shit Usopp has had to endure.Just gotta comment on these two. Usopp's nose was broken all the way from the Mr. 4 incident to the end of Thriller Bark. Even under his Sogeking mask, his nose was taped up. Sure, he survived a severe fracture, lolshonen, but his nose for some reason did not.
And as for Kuzan/Aokiji, they rested for 7 days after that, which is their longest rest so far. Even the Moria fight only had a 3 day rest.
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Still being completly frozen and then just revived with slowly heating up by applying cold water?
Personally I don't think that is reasonable.
After looking at wikipedia on cryonics for how one would theoretically revive someone in frozen statis I came across this insteead:
It is a common mistaken belief that cells will lyse (burst) due to the formation of ice crystals within the cell, but this only occurs if the freezing rate exceeds the osmotic loss of water to the extracellular space (and it is virtually impossible to cool a large tissue that quickly). However, damage from freezing can still be serious; ice may still form between cells, causing mechanical and chemical damage. Cryonics organizations use cryoprotectants to reduce this damage. Cryoprotectant solutions are circulated through blood vessels to remove and replace water inside cells with chemicals that prevent freezing. This can reduce damage greatly, but freezing of whole people still causes injuries that are not reversible with present technology.
Then I found what I was looking for:
It is universally agreed by scientists and cryonics advocates that reversing human cryopreservation is not possible with “any near-term technology
… (section left out due to not being relevant) ...
Revival (except for mind uploading) requires repairing damage from lack of oxygen, cryoprotectant toxicity, thermal stress (fracturing), freezing in tissues that do not successfully vitrify, physical therapy to regain function of the body
Some of those problems with revival might not be relevant since this is short term complete freezing instead of longterm stasis hibernation, but there are sure to still be complications that can't be cured by Chopper with what he has accessible to him at the time.
Yet the strawhats are all fine and dandy with a little bit of rest.
Greg has resently expressed his displeasure with the characters of OP (especially the nameless side characters) having Luny toon like constitution surviving any leathal damage… People jsut doesn't take as much damage in OP. If they do they can recover unreasonable damage.
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In my opinion Aokiji didn't freeze them all the way through he just encased them in a thick film of ice. I think he had second thoughts about killing them and just barely froze them to show them fear and send them cautiously on their way.
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ah damn now I gotta read up on those chapters.
Edit: http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/320/14/
If he can smash her, doesnt she need to be frozen completly through?
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/321/02/
"I think she is in stasis"… So she is frozen enough to slow down her heart rate...
He also says "completly frozen" in the last panel.
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/321/17/
"Their hearts are beating again" … I can't read that any other way then that they were frozen.http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/322/02/
The seven day rest FFA was talking about.. -
Ok, I see now. Guess I was wrong. DAMN YOU GORLOM!! DAMN YOU AND YOU AND YOUR RESEARCH TO HELL!!
Jus' kiddin'I guess they were frozen solid. But hey its manga it doesn't have to make sense. But i guess we're used to most of Oda's stuff to follow some sort of mildly warped logic and when it doesn't it stands out ninja on a pirate ship.
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DAMN YOU AND YOU AND YOUR RESEARCH
You damn me twice? 0.O
But hey its manga it doesn't have to make sense
That's my point. I am not complaining about the manga being unrealistic.
I'm using the unrealistic recovery of these injuries to argue my opinion that Zoro will completely recover from the injuries caused by Kuma.
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Ja ha ha ha haan!! I wasn't damning you twice. Unbeknownst to you, you are actually two people: Gorlom and Jackie Lee Jaa. The latter of you knows Verbal Jiu-jitsu. I only know Fist of the South Star, and as you know: Scissors beats paper.
Edit:Yeah Zoro will completely recover by the end of this arc.
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"Jackie Lee Jaa" ?
Is that a cross between/clone hybrid of: Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee and Tony Jaa? -
Yep
16 post lengthening yeps -
The difference between this wound and Mihawk's is that this wound is intangible, when Zoro shows his weakened state on the Archipelego he's clutching at his heart and not some straight up wound.
We don't know what the effects of the Paw Paw fruit are and that's why it's possible that Zoro might not be able to just 'heal', it's not a cut. There's clearly more to Kuma than meets the eye if he's capable of essentially transfering damage and fatigue from one person to another.
I really don't believe that Zoro will die, I just believe that he'll have a rather severe brush with death, this is definitely going to come back and haunt him though.
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"Jackie Lee Jaa" ?
Is that a cross between/clone hybrid of: Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee and Tony Jaa?I haven't posted here for a few months and I'm glad to see the cheezy jokes never come on short supply at apforums. :happy:
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Greg has resently expressed his displeasure with the characters of OP (especially the nameless side characters) having Luny toon like constitution surviving any leathal damage… People jsut doesn't take as much damage in OP. If they do they can recover unreasonable damage.
It has nothing to do with people taking any level of damage and everything to do with Oda being a complete pussy when it comes to killing innocent nameless people.
Pell I understood, accepted and liked.
Usopp getting pounded in the face with massive bat and living I accepted and like.
Characters constantly surviving long falls I accept and like.
Zoro taking Luffy's damage and fatigue on top of his own I accepted and liked.
Zoro losing almost as much blood as a human body contains I accepted and liked.
Luffy never killing a villain I accept and like.
Oda showing nameless weak-ass mother-fuckers getting shot and blown up only to survive or be given the 'next dimension' treatment in some side conversation is starting to get fucking absurd.
For instance, fine, don't even say the pirate died. That's cool. But don't pull the 4Kids/FUNimation bullcrap a scene later:
"Gosh! I hope the doctors were able to save him after all that damage."
Oda's idealistic pacifism seems to be getting worse. He didn't seem to have any problems with the Kicking Claw Squad who were WAY cooler than this joker from the past chapter.
It's not the fact that he does it. We've known that for a long time. It's the frequency with which it's starting to rear its ugly head. Soon it won't matter what happens in One Piece. Everyone is invincible so it doesn't matter anyway.
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meh unless we see these pirates later, I just take it as they died in teh hospital. They weren't able to be saved. Just like how in Skypiea and Arabasta, can we point out anyone that did die. No, but they did. Sure we see many that were supposed to be dead and later seems as all are alive, but many died.
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It has nothing to do with people taking any level of damage and everything to do with Oda being a complete pussy when it comes to killing innocent nameless people.
Pell I understood, accepted and liked.
Usopp getting pounded in the face with massive bat and living I accepted and like.
Characters constantly surviving long falls I accept and like.
Zoro taking Luffy's damage and fatigue on top of his own I accepted and liked.
Zoro losing almost as much blood as a human body contains I accepted and liked.
Luffy never killing a villain I accept and like.
Oda showing nameless weak-ass mother-fuckers getting shot and blown up only to survive or be given the 'next dimension' treatment in some side conversation is starting to get fucking absurd.
For instance, fine, don't even say the pirate died. That's cool. But don't pull the 4Kids/FUNimation bullcrap a scene later:
"Gosh! I hope the doctors were able to save him after all that damage."
Oda's idealistic pacifism seems to be getting worse. He didn't seem to have any problems with the Kicking Claw Squad who were WAY cooler than this joker from the past chapter.
It's not the fact that he does it. We've known that for a long time. It's the frequency with which it's starting to rear its ugly head. Soon it won't matter what happens in One Piece. Everyone is invincible so it doesn't matter anyway.
I guess I'm just as big of a pacifist as Oda because that just doesn't bother me…
What really grinds my gears though is whenever evil person A is threatening helpless person B's life or in the process of taking it (without using B as a shield), and the hero C stands there watching it happen and screaming "stop or I'll shoot" or something similar like four or five times untill the last moment when C finally kills A by shooting him in the head.
Why not just shoot A in the knee or hand or something. There are ways to stop a person without killing or inflicting a fatal wound.... But no, since you have that gun you only have two options: don't shoot or hit him in a vital spot.
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I guess I'm just as big of a pacifist as Oda because that just doesn't bother me…
I didn't say it had to bother you. It does bother me.
If anyone has ever complained about any 4Kids edit pertaining to a character death in One Piece, and this doesn't rub you the wrong way, there's a word that begins with 'hypo' and ends with 'crite' best suited to describe you.
"But Greg it's the author!"
Yep, and he's starting to do his own censoring.
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It doesn't bother me too much… but I really hated it in Skypiea when all the side characters Enel fried were like fine and able to party later on. In turn, it really harmed Enel's credibility as a villain and strong DF user.
By all means they should have been dead. (main characters I understand... even though Robin took a bolt of pure lightning through the head... but whatever..)
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but I really hated it in Skypiea when all the side characters Enel fried were like fine and able to party later on.
I keep "explaining" that one away by assuming that the ampere wasn't lethal.
Volts don't kill you. =P -
yeah it would be best to assume that the amps weren't lethal.
I understand this. but often times, Enel would create a current with both his outstretched hands. Many characters who were grounded would have been fried in this situation… or if the shock reached their brains (which many were enveloped).
And if ANYTHING.... Gan Fall should have been one dead skyknight...
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I keep "explaining" that one away by assuming that the ampere wasn't lethal.
Volts don't kill you.Giant lightning bolts that are capable of breaking…uh...the ground and scorching your skin black are certainly lethal.
There is no easy explanation.
I just accepted it because, well, Ener was a strong enough character in and of himself. Plus, it's far easier to imagine someone surviving electrocution than say, AN EXPLOSIVE DEVICE ATTACHED TO THEIR NECK. The Tenryuubito are some of the most dangerous characters we've seen yet. They're above jerk-asses like Spandam and racist fucks like Arlong. They're one of the reasons the world is the way it is in the OP-verse and even if they're ultimately puppets they should be portrayed as dangerous and lethal in their fancies which they see as status marks. It's a sin for Oda to avoid that opportunity.
Not that because what I believe should sway anyone, but it just seems that sooner or later if he keeps this up (and I don't think he will) the Naruto fans' complaints will actually be valid for once.
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well the naruto people should quit complaining about our manga and just read their own. not our fault theirs isn't interesting anymore.
and just because Oda says he will never kill anyone, basically means anyone with a name. like i said earlier plenty die offscreen that we don't see. What happened to rest of priests, all of the enforcers. (I don't remember seeing them ever again, besides choppers enemy) The king and vivi also state people died in their war. and just because in recent chapters they are said to be brought to hospital. Unless we see them later, it can be assumed that the doctors couldn't save them.
and even if we never see death, they talk about it, and with recent manga chapter was Carlos says about
! mermaid swimming for survival from pirahnas.I think it is fine enough. Do we really need to have someone die, be mutilated, family killed ect. to be a good manga. NO not until going to the forums and reading all you people talk about how gay it is that no one dies. I had never thought about it. Except Pell, always thought was sa super pimp moment and later a bit dulled due to living.
But I guess kind of same as thinking Zoro's current Kuma incident is same as Pell. Just cause Zoro lived does it make his decision any less loyal and pimp.
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Can you guys not derail this thread which refers to a specific incident between Zoro and Kuma with your discussion on your views of Oda's pacifist nature? I'd appreciate it since I don't go around derailing other people's threads and I only ask for the same courtesy in return. Just make your own thread if you want to talk about that stuff, this thread's about Zoro's encounter with Kuma, and whether or not the issue of impending death will come to Zoro in the future. I can understand how your little discussion relates to the thread, but it's still off topic.
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Can you guys not derail this thread which refers to a specific incident between Zoro and Kuma with your discussion on your views of Oda's pacifist nature? I'd appreciate it since I don't go around derailing other people's threads and I only ask for the same courtesy in return.
Could you rephrase this so that you don't come off as though you're somebody's boss at this forum?
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No one's claiming to be anyone's boss, I'm asking for a simple courtesy that I return to everyone else, Nanlit.
Hopefully this isn't permanently derailed…
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Omg this is the funniest thread i've read in some time, only topped by the Pwn goat topic. Thank you all for making a boy laugh.
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You know what makes me laugh? This quality of this place: http://z9.invisionfree.com/Romance_Dawn/index.php
I'm kidding, I just wanted to seem like a mean person for once.
The question in this thread is whether Zoro's decision has ultimate consequences; whether he will truly pay the price for saving Luffy, or not. If he does pay the price by dying (after fulfilling his dream), it will be tragic but beautiful and "worthy" of the Pirate King. On the other hand, if he never pays the price, it was purely a plot-device used to tie up an encounter with a Shichibukai without having to actually create a fight or real consequences.
Can you picture it? Right at the last moment before he dies, he sees a vision of heaven, where Kuina is happily waiting for the World's Greatest Swordsman… he fulfills his oath, thanks Luffy, and dies with a smile on his face. sniff
Or, a happy medium would be that he ALMOST dies from it, but somehow Luffy saves him/brings him back from death. I'm sure that Dr. Whateverhisnameis who built Kuma could CURE the damage done by his machines......
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i honestly think this subject has been beaten into the ground