I didn't mean use it right at that second, I mean use it at all during the fight. If he could have made the executioners fall before he was injured, why not do it?… or maybe it's a range thing I dunno.
The War With Whitebeard
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whitebeard is a confirmed haki user,but on the other hand it has never been mentioned that he has King's Ambition haki.We know so far that only 1 of 1.000.000 people have it.
In my opinion he didnt used it cuz he simply he didnt have it,or the pain/old age couldnt allow it. -
whitebeard is a confirmed haki user,but on the other hand it has never been mentioned that he has King's Ambition haki.We know so far that only 1 of 1.000.000 people have it.
In my opinion he didnt used it cuz he simply he didnt have it,or the pain/old age couldnt allow it.No, it was confirmed that both he and Shanks have it. And it was insinuated that Ace might have it but who cares about that now? >_>
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@Uncle:
No, it was confirmed that both he and Shanks have it. And it was insinuated that Ace might have it but who cares about that now? >_>
When and where was in confirmed that Shanks and Newgate have it? I've heard that before and never found the place where it was said. Cause I only remember it ever being stated that Boa and Luffy have it.
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When and where was in confirmed that Shanks and Newgate have it? I've heard that before and never found the place where it was said. Cause I only remember it ever being stated that Boa and Luffy have it.
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Simple answer is… PLOT
Why didn't he or Boa use it from the very beginning to let the fodders faint.
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Oda is a sly bastard. He hasn't explained the mechanics of haki yet so he can pretty much drop a haki bomb whenever and lol it off real good.
@KiShiDo: For all we know, haki might sap your physical strength or life force or whatever and it might even be that king's haki is harder to control or muster up. Fact is, we don't know enough about haki to definitively state it was plot-induced.
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@Uncle:
http://static.mangastream.com/manga/5/25/02.png
Simple answer is… PLOT
Why didn't he or Boa use it from the very beginning to let the fodders faint.
Boa stated she can't control it well.
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Simple answer is… PLOT
Why didn't he or Boa use it from the very beginning to let the fodders faint.
I really don't like to explain things that way. It ruins the suspension of disbelief if you can't at least find a plausible explanation.
I would say that haki is like mental toughness/fortitude/whatever, and by the time things got desperate enough to bring it forth, his haki was already mostly tied up in fighting through the pain of being stabbed straight through several times.
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That was a mistranslation.
Um, I just skimmed through the FIRST PAGE and the mangastream translation already missed some seriously vital information. WTF.
One of the commanders say "It's the Haoushoku haki… just like Pops and Redhaired"
Garp says "I knew it he was born with it" -
Why didn't he or Boa use it from the very beginning to let the fodders faint.
Perhaps because she doesn't want for everybody to find out about it. So far it's confirmed that only the Kuja know of it.
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@Sir:
That was a mistranslation.
Well, good to know.
She said LUFFY couldn't control it well.
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000088312/19.jpg
Ok, forget control. She hasn't mastered it yet.
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Perhaps because she doesn't want for everybody to find out about it. So far it's confirmed that only the Kuja know of it.
Also that haki isn't selective. It would have knocked out all of Whitebeard's glorious fodder too.~
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Well, good to know.
http://media.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000088312/19.jpg
Ok, forget control. She hasn't mastered it yet.
That's yet another mistranslation. Here from Stephen's script on chapter 519:
- Page 147 -
Sandersonia: I've never seen anyone who wielded it… aside from our sister!!
Marigold: He has the quality of a king, meant to stand on the shoulders of other men!!
Hancock: How can he have the same Overlord aspect as me?!
This is no ordinary boy!
But he has no control over it...Luffy: Oh, shut up with all your yammering...
I know you're tough, already.Women: Who IS that boy?!!
Luffy: Now I'm going...
ALL OUT!!!===
@Uncle:Also that haki isn't selective. It would have knocked out all of Whitebeard's glorious fodder too.~
One might argue that it is selective going by Rayleighs performance in the auction house where he didn't knock out Camie and Pappug.
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That's yet another mistranslation. Here from Stephen's script on chapter 519:
damn. seriously?
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I thought of something completely different when I read the thread title…
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When and where was in confirmed that Shanks and Newgate have it?
Shanks:
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/04/Shanks and Whitebeard?
http://www.onemanga.com/One_Piece/434/16-17/ -
Because he knew(if he really has it) that it wouldnt do shit to top tiers unless its was imbued in an attack or something.
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He has the dysfunction :(
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Looking at the poll reminds me how funny this thread was…..
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wow we have 2147483647 people here hell we could be considered a country:ninja:
we should have a spot in the U.N :ninja:
double ninja
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World population: 6,805,000,000
Votes: 2,147,483,648
We're good. :ninja:
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The 3 power balance Marine - Shichibukai - Yonkou that was mentioned so many times before in the manga as being so important is now out of the window with 1 Yonkou dead (Whitebeard) and Jimbei, Blackbeard and possibly Hancock no longer being shichibukai. So Marine - 4 Shichibukai - 3 Yonkou can't the same as Marine - 7 Shichibukai - 4 Yonkou. What is happening now is the world falling into chaos or are they going to be replaced but i doubt it seeing how hard it was for them to find a replacement for Crocodile.
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Buggy, Buggy, Buggy oh i forgot about Buggy.
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you know … the chance is very high that there are many people who haven't read the RAW version of chapter 576 .. so you should put some things in spoiler tag
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so for first time 100% on AP were correct
all 2147483648 of them
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This post is deleted!
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The 3 power balance Marine - Shichibukai - Yonkou that was mentioned so many times before in the manga as being so important is now out of the window with 1 Yonkou dead (Whitebeard) and Jimbei, Blackbeard and possibly Hancock no longer being shichibukai. So Marine - 4 Shichibukai - 3 Yonkou can't the same as Marine - 7 Shichibukai - 4 Yonkou. What is happening now is the world falling into chaos or are they going to be replaced but i doubt it seeing how hard it was for them to find a replacement for Crocodile.
Even if the governments forces had a slight advantage in this war it was still a fight where both sides stood on equal grounds. Meaning if the other 3 Emperors are on the same level as Whitebeard all 4 Emperors (with their crews together) would be far superior then the Marine HQ and the 7 Warlords combined.
But since the Emperors are enemies to begin with this entire balance thing makes the most sense as follows: "Emperor 1 = Emperor 2 = Emperor 3 = Emperor 4 = Marine HQ + 7 Warlords". So if one Emperor falls the balance would still be kept.
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Even if the governments forces had a slight advantage in this war it was still a fight where both sides stood on equal grounds. Meaning if the other 3 Emperors are on the same level as Whitebeard all 4 Emperors (with their crews together) would be far superior then the Marine HQ and the 7 Warlords combined.
But since the Emperors are enemies to begin with this entire balance thing makes the most sense as follows: "Emperor 1 = Emperor 2 = Emperor 3 = Emperor 4 = Marine HQ + 7 Warlords". So if one Emperor falls the balance would still be kept.
uhh not again that discussion:blink:
it was said WB is the strongest and so he is "slightly" stronger than the other emperors…also 3 shichibukai (jinbei hancock and croc(or BB also)) didn`t fight for the marines in this WAR!
in the end WB and ace got defeated while no admiral or shichibukai was beaten (sakazuki maybe will have some wounds he can lick) -
@Don:
uhh not again that discussion:blink:
it was said WB is the strongest and so he is "slightly" stronger than the other emperors…also 3 shichibukai (jinbei hancock and croc(or BB also)) didn`t fight for the marines in this WAR!
in the end WB and ace got defeated while no admiral or shichibukai was beaten (sakazuki maybe will have some wounds he can lick)It's not a discussion, just a confirmation of something that has been speculated about long before the war even started. If the other Emperors are slightly weaker then Whitebeard then wouldn't you agree that if all those four worked together they would be far superior to the Marine HQ/7 Warlord combo? The latter were at best slightly stronger then the WB Pirates so I see no chance how they could match fight 4 Emperors at the same time.
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It's not a discussion, just a confirmation of something that has been speculated about long before the war even started. If the other Emperors are slightly weaker then Whitebeard then wouldn't you agree that if all those four worked together they would be far superior to the Marine HQ/7 Warlord combo? The latter were at best slightly stronger then the WB Pirates so I see no chance how they could match fight 4 Emperors at the same time.
all 4 emperors would sure be to much…even when the marines won against WB without any of their MAIN FORCES being defeated they wouldn`t win against all 4 of them..here i agree with you
but still the 4 yonkou are known to don
t trust each others and are more foes than a power you can see combined.. even WB and shanks clashed against each other even when we now know both are actually friendly... hearing that kaidou even interferred shanks by just trying to "help" WB shows they won
t ever work togeather.. -
Trust me we haven't seen or actual heard of any feats of Shanks's crew that makes them seem weaker in comparison to the Whitebeard pirates. Shanks didn't play subordinate to whitebeard nor did he mention that Whitebeard was still strong . He spoke to him as an equal so saying that Whitebeard was the strongest Yonkou still can't be called fact since we haven't seen the other two in battle. Shanks may have been suspicious of Blackbeard but he is not afraid of him he just acknowleged that he his a real threat that shouldn't be taken lightly he also said that one day he will he become a Yonkou. In terms of power Blackbeard is nowhere near Yonkou yet but with time he will get their
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@Don:
all 4 emperors would sure be to much…even when the marines won against WB without any of their MAIN FORCES being defeated they wouldn`t win against all 4 of them..here i agree with you
but still the 4 yonkou are known to don
t trust each others and are more foes than a power you can see combined.. even WB and shanks clashed against each other even when we now know both are actually friendly... hearing that kaidou even interferred shanks by just trying to "help" WB shows they won
t ever work togeather..But this is exactly what I am saying. The Emperors are enemies with each other just as they are enemies with the WG. Meaning the balance is:
Whitebeard Pirates = Shanks Pirates = Kaidoh Pirates = 4th Emperor Pirates = WG (Marine + 7 Warlords)
They are all on an equal level with only slight differences. Erase Whitebeard from that list and the balance would still stay. Get what I mean?
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But this is exactly what I am saying. The Emperors are enemies with each other just as they are enemies with the WG. Meaning the balance is:
Whitebeard Pirates = Shanks Pirates = Kaidoh Pirates = 4th Emperor Pirates = WG (Marine + 7 Warlords)
They are all on an equal level with only slight differences. Erase Whitebeard from that list and the balance would still stay. Get what I mean?
i think we agreed that 1 yonkou crew does not equals marines and shichibukai:blink:
WB and his crew lost without taking out one admiral or one shichibukai even when they also had shichibukais on their side..
and i think the WAR! was more for the marines than for WB (but BB will not end right here i think)
so after all it should be like:
1 yonkou crew doesn`t equals marine+shichibukaibut every yonkou crew could destroy half of those other two powers seperated(like 1-2 admirals or 3 shichi) which would also be like they would have been defeated or outtaken a power on their own..
but the admirlas are still a bit overpowered in my eyes..i mean look at them they seem undefeatable..just WB could barely manage to get rit of sakazuki while taking much damage:blink:
1 yonkou crew = 1\2 shichibukai or 1\2 marines
means
4 yonkou crews = shichibukai + marines -
@Don:
i think we agreed that 1 yonkou crew does not equals marines and shichibukai:blink:
WB and his crew lost without taking out one admiral or one shichibukai even when they also had shichibukais on their side..
and i think the WAR! was more for the marines than for WB (but BB will not end right here i think)
so after all it should be like:
1 yonkou crew ~~=[\s] marine+shichibukaiHuh? Wasn't Akainu defeated by Newgate a chapter ago? Also until they were distracted Marco and Joz did pretty well against the Admirals. There was literally no indication that the Admirals were superior to them up to that point. Also Vista didn't seem to be inferior to Mihawk.
Don't make the mistake to think that being on an equal level means that a fight ends in a draw. Think for instance of a boxing match where two boxers of equal strenght fight with each other. Now imagine that one of those is distracted by some outside interferance and the other takes the opportunity for the knock out punch. True, the fight gets determined by one hit but that doesn't mean that the loser is inferior to the winner strenght-wise.
The same thing is what has been shown in this war. Until the turning points that were anything but strenght-based the Whitebeard Pirates as a whole didn't seem to be inferior to the Marines-Warlord combination as a whole.~~
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Relative strength is always hard to determine ofcourse, but I think there are some indications that the admirals are (supposed to be) stronger than the division commanders, including Marco and Jozu. Mainly the fact we have seen the division commanders team up to take on one admiral (Kizaru, Akainu). Also, not getting distracted at crucial times can also be considered part of your "strength".
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Huh? Wasn't Akainu defeated by Newgate a chapter ago?
i don
t think so..he just fall into that ground, but i don
t think sakazuki wasn`t anymore able to fight..Also until they got cheap shotted Marco and Joz did pretty well against the Admirals. There was literally no indication that the Admirals were superior to them up to the point where Marco and Joz were distracted. Also Vista didn't seem to be inferior to Mihawk.
with marco i can half agree but joz..nahh he lost against akainu without having even the slightest chance against him in my eyes
and vista sure did a good job but i think we can be sure that the strongest swordsman will handle him in the long run.
True, the fight gets determined by one hit but that doesn't mean that the loser is inferior to the winner strenght-wise.
but in a manga it
s most of the time that what we should judge.. i mean we had many discussions that croc still could be stronger than luffy and that sure could be true..but let
s face it..he got defeated and end of it. only the main chara has more than one chance to defeat someone he lost too
and so when somebody defeats another chara in a manga we have to take it as "he is the stronger one" even when they would fight somehwere else another outcome could be true..but that is something we can imagine but it doesn`t is relevant for the manga.The same thing is what I see in this war. Until the turning points the Whitebeard Pirates didn't seem to be inferior to the Marines and Warlords.
sure they gave a good battle after all..i don
t say that they are weak at all..it
s just that even when its a close combat they are on the side that lose ín the end, cause it isn
t slighly being weaker against nearly two full powers and just being one yonkou crew in that WAR!..seeing VA and NW-capt
ns could be declared fodder in my eyes for the point we discuss. as i said(don
t know if you saw that edited it a bit late) i think that it`s like this.1 yonkou crew = 1\2 shichibukai or 1\2 marines
means
4 yonkou crews = shichibukai + marinesand when that "would" happen you would also have your close boxing fight were the winner isn`t for sure
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Relative strength is always hard to determine ofcourse, but I think there are some indications that the admirals are (supposed to be) stronger than the division commanders, including Marco and Jozu. Mainly the fact we have seen the division commanders team up to take on one admiral (Kizaru, Akainu). Also, not getting distracted at crucial times can also be considered part of your "strength".
Marco and Vista taking on Akainu struck me more as a "stop this guy quickly" move instead of a straight fight. When Marco collided with Kizaru he didn't seem neither superior nor inferior. And Joz taking on Aokiji didn't strike as an inferiority thing either since he pretty much let his opponent stand up to take on him in a fight.
The main point I'm making here though is that the established concept by Oda is that the Marine HQ/Warlord combo is there to rival the Emperors. And with this war it should be evident that strenght-wise 4 Emperor combo would be far superior to the government force. So the balance could only work if it's against one Emperor (with crew) only because the strenght difference in this war was a slight one which pretty much makes it a confrontation on an equal level.
@Don:
i don
t think so..he just fall into that ground, but i don
t think sakazuki wasn`t anymore able to fight..Akainu is the most thorough bastard on the Marines side. He just stood up and destroyed Whitebeards face after taking a critical hit from him. You really think he would have stopped attacking him if he would have kept his consciousness?
with marco i can half agree but joz..nahh he lost against akainu without having even the slightest chance against him in my eyes
Until the surprise attack he didn't seem to be weaker. Heck, he even let Aokiji stand up to take on which struck as a "I can take care of this guy" situation.
But as I said the main point is that we have this balance concept here. And you just yourself agreed that IF the 4 Emperors would work together they would by far overpower the Marine HQ/Warlord combination. So the balance concept can't apply here.
And since this entire war (except for those distraction situations) never was really one-sided strenght-wise it pretty much is what makes a balance. Even if you don't agree with that you have to admit that it is a lot closer to a balance than if we'd have 4 Emperors work together no?
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Huh? Wasn't Akainu defeated by Newgate a chapter ago?
No. He fell down a crack in the island.
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Akainu is the most thorough bastard on the Marines side. He just stood up and destroyed Whitebeards face after taking a critical hit from him. You really think he would have stopped attacking him if he would have kept his consciousness?
i think after falling down you sure need some time to recover..also against the strongest guy in the world he sure is near K.O..
i agree with you that he won`t have a big fighting role in this WAR! again…But as I said the main point is that we have this balance concept here. And you just yourself agreed that IF the 4 Emperors would work together they [1] would by far overpower the Marine HQ/Warlord combination. So the balance concept can't apply here.
And since this entire war (except for those distraction situations) never was really one-sided strenght-wise it pretty much is what makes a balance. [2]Even if you don't agree with that you have to admit that it is a lot closer to a balance than if we'd have 4 Emperors work together no?
[1] thats what i said:
1 yonkou crew = 1\2 shichibukai or 1 yonkou crew= 1\2 marines
means
4 yonkou crews = shichibukai + marines and when that "would" happen (that the 4 yonkou crews would join) you would have your close boxing fight were the winner isn`t for surenot overpowered by the yonkous
[2]
not exactly..it was sure in the beginning balanced this WAR! but in the end one side clear won..
when all for yonkous and all shichibukai(on one side)+marines "would" fight we would have the same balance in the beginning but in the end both sides will have massive damages..
just a few of the big shots will stand in the end. -
@Don:
[1] thats what i said:
not overpowered by the yonkous
In all fairness this equatation simply has too much complex variables. I really think it's a stretch to think that Oda's balance concept is anything but pretty basic and simple.
[2]
not exactly..it was sure in the beginning balanced this WAR! but in the end one side clear won..
when all for yonkous and all shichibukai(on one side)+marines "would" fight we would have the same balance in the beginning but in the end both sides will have massive damages..
just a few of the big shots will stand in the end.Didn't the ending scenario have Whitebeard causing some serious damage (like destroying the HQ itself and quickly defeating an Admiral) to the enemy all by himself? And that while being at the brink of death? That's anything but strenght superiority (which I think is what you mean with clear victory) on the governments side.
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In all fairness this equatation simply has too much complex variables. I really think it's a stretch to think that Oda's balance concept is anything but pretty basic and simple.
:wassat:so hard it isn
t Ivotas. 2 yonkous could go against 1 great power to have a equal battle where the winner can be decided by a coin. so 4 yonkou could go against both great powers(the marines and the shichibukai combined). don
t know why that is complicated?Didn't the ending scenario have Whitebeard causing some serious damage (like destroying the HQ itself and quickly defeating an Admiral) to the enemy all by himself? And that while being at the brink of death? That's anything but strenght superiority (which I think is what you mean with clear victory) on the governments side.
thats why he is slightly the strongest..thats why he deserved that title.
maybe than, when 4 yonkous and shichibukai+marines would have clashed in a WAR! the yonkous would have won cause of his slightly stronger powerPS: destroying the marine HQ doesn
t have to do with our discussion..also the moby dick could have been crushed in no instance by an admiral or mihawk for example.. but well it sure shows once agian WB
s amazing powers which are sure a class for its own! -
This poll is simply hilarious.
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@Don:
:wassat:so hard it isn
t Ivotas. 2 yonkous could go against 1 great power to have a equal battle where the winner can be decided by a coin. so 4 yonkou could go against both great powers(the marines and the shichibukai combined). don
t know why that is complicated?It's not complicated in terms of understand your point. It's simply has a complicated structure. And Oda so far has always been straight forwards in his concepts so I really doubt that it's anything like that.
PS: destroying the marine HQ doesn
t have to do with our discussion..also the moby dick could have been crushed in no instance by an admiral or mihawk for example.. but well it sure shows once agian WB
s amazing powers which are sure a class for its own!Usually factions that are portrayed like the Marine and WG care a lot about symbolism in context for power. And the Marine HQ pretty much stood for that so I think that even if it was just a building destroying it counts as a feat of strenght especially because it's the home base of the strongest of the strongest (which all have been there to protect it). One more point on the symbolism argument is that Newgate's most devastating hit the HQ took was the punch that was launched at Akainu.
But to get back from symbolism. The strenght difference was anything but clear. Yes, it was a victory for the Marines but as I said, fighting on equal grounds does not mean a fight ends in a ground. The result is one thing. The display of strenght is another.
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i for my taste think it is proven cause of the recent events in the manga that it`s not: yonkou=yonkou=yonkou=yonkou=marine+shichibukai
when you think the structure i think of doesn
t describe the balance of those 3 powers i can
t help it and i also cant prove you now otherwise.. (but just oda hasn
t so far given a bit(rly just a bit in my eyes) more complex structure…well)
maybe in the future we will have some more hints which can than be added to that point and brings us both to a new equation.as always my plessure to discuss with you my friend ,but i don`t think we can add more to that point so far
The strenght difference was anything but clear. Yes, it was a victory for the Marines but as I said, fighting on equal grounds does not mean a fight ends in a ground. The result is one thing. The display of strenght is another.
here you aren`t wrong but we all were unsure who would win in the end..
(instead the WAR! would have been boring)
so that the WAR! was in the beginning equal had to be in my eyes.But the end was like i said a complete defeat of that what the WB crew hoped to achieve..
! to rescue ace and WB..nope don`t achieved they are dead
so i get your point but in the end stands this result!
and like argued before that is what we have to take..WB shows that he could (also by destroying half of marineford, -here you have a point with your symbolism-) did shock the marines and so it was maybe no COMPLETE DEFEAT (there are still the commanders of WB who will survive..so the WB
s are sure not completely defeated) but at least in the end as clear as it was necessary and importnat for the marine.. even when WB showed that he
s the strongest and kicked sakazuki and marineford away, what showed us symbolic that this WAR! was most of the time equal and the marines could be lucky with that result.. -
I don't want to read everything you all wrote, but just in case nobody mentioned it, the Marines had the home ground advantage. Not only did the pirates have to hold back (IE: Whitebeard) to avoid killing Ace in the crossfire, but they basically had to raid into the Marines' stronghold that had already been prepped for battle. That's a HUGE advantage for the Marine / Warlord forces. On top of that all, once Whitebeard's side accomplished their mission of rescuing Ace, they had to escape! So had Ace not been trolled by Akainu they would have more than likely escaped with most of their forces and Ace.
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@Cyan:
This poll is simply hilarious.
Especially since whoever edited it gave WB's death 1 vote.
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@Ivotas: ah if your point was about the power balance, yeah it's unclear to me how to interpret that at this point. Oda could have meant it any number of ways and the WB pirates were stronger in this war than expected simply to fit the story. It would just be weird if the whole marineforce and the shichibukai are just enough to match 1 yonkou. So if 2 of them team up they can destroy the WG? That doesn't sound right to me.
I don't want to read everything you all wrote, but just in case nobody mentioned it, the Marines had the home ground advantage. Not only did the pirates have to hold back (IE: Whitebeard) to avoid killing Ace in the crossfire, but they basically had to raid into the Marines' stronghold that had already been prepped for battle. That's a HUGE advantage for the Marine / Warlord forces. On top of that all, once Whitebeard's side accomplished their mission of rescuing Ace, they had to escape! So had Ace not been trolled by Akainu they would have more than likely escaped with most of their forces and Ace.
While I agree about the home advantage being big, WB didn't hold back at all, at one point he send a massive quake at the execution platform and it was the admirals that stopped it with their haki wall. (or w/e it was) He could have very well killed Ace there, same with those tsunami's at the start.
And I think the majority of the pirates are dead. (offscreen, fodder) There have been comments left and right to this effect.