Lasso + Frankfried = demons?

Malintex_Terek

Some strange idea struck me while brushing my teeth. Lasso and Frankfried were originally a gun and sword, respectively. Inanimate objects. Yet, after they "devoured" their Devil Fruits, they became living beings. From a biological standpoint, life can only come from existing life, not from the inanimate (at least not yet) so this raises the question - why are Lasso and Frankfried alive? Why aren't they simply a Dachshund-shaped gun and an Elephant-hilted sword?

Something mentioned several times over the course of the series might have an answer - one of the theories of Devil Fruits is that each fruit contains a "devil" that grants someone powers. This devil might be merely mythical or metaphorical, but it's appeared numerous times to explain certain phenomenon; Jabura for example believed that a Devil Fruit user who comes in contact with another fruit will have his inner demon do battle with the demon in the yet-to-be-eaten fruit. Early in the series, the fruit's "demons" are said to be the beings that the ocean rejects, hence the paralysis when in contact with a body of water.

So, consider this. Perhaps Lasso and Frankfried, who were originally merely objects, became "possessed" by the demons of the Devil Fruit. That is to say, rather than the fruit's demon merely existing inside of a DF user and granting the user powers, they've taken total control of the user's body.

In Naruto terms (pardon the crude analogy), each DF user has a Tailed Beast inside him/herself that grants powers. In Lasso and Frankfried's case, in which the objects that became DF users were not alive, the Tailed Beasts manifest physically through the objects themselves, like how the Beast of Darkness takes control of Guts and physically alters Berserk's Armour in the Berserk manga.

What's the implication of this? It gives us some idea of what the DF's actually are - are they a magical item, or the super advanced technology of a long existing civilisation during the blank century? Are these demons immortal, do they become fruits once a DF user dies and merely pass onto the next user? What could be their objective?

Thoughts/ideas/contributions are most welcome.

Solar Knight

Vegapunk.

Malintex_Terek

Is that a spoiler? Because please use spoiler tags in this topic as far a spoilers are concerned as I haven't read beyond Brooke's introductory chapter in Thriller Bark.

Solar Knight

Sorry, I posted then searched for the page he was first mentioned in. It's not a spoiler from the point you're at.

Mister_Anbu

The fighting spirits of the former civilization that lived on Raftel perhaps?

Gorlom

But wasn't it said by the others that you have to eat 2 fruits to explode? That could be any number of reasons including some sort of chemical reaction. Jabura was just overly cautious wasn't he?

We don't really know how the inanimate objects were crossed with the devil fruits.. maybe vegapunk had to go dr frankenstein on them after mixing them to animate the lifeless bodies with the help of lightning (or whatever)?

As you probably can tell I'm not that big on the whole "little demons inside the fruit" idea.

Malintex_Terek

@Gorlom:

But wasn't it said by the others that you have to eat 2 fruits to explode? That could be any number of reasons including some sort of chemical reaction. Jabura was just overly cautious wasn't he?

Jabura was mistaken, he thought merely getting in contact was enough to cause the problem, when eating the fruit required the "combat" to occur.

Jab's theory on how the DF explosion phenomenon seems pretty normative, it's the kind of superstitious explanation one would expect to hear from someone uneducated in the ways of science and modern expository thinking. A chemical reaction seems more likely to me but every time something is mentioned in OP, even the off-hand comments or elaborate lies (Usopp), there's a grain of truth or they eventually have some tie to something relevant and real. I suspect the true nature of the DF's lies somewhere between Jabs' explanation and a scientific one involving chemicals.

@Gorlom:

As you probably can tell I'm not that big on the whole "little demons inside the fruit" idea.

Oda could have borrowed the idea from the alchemical homunculus, which FMA fans would know a little about. Some theories place the homunculus as an operator within the human brain; i.e., the human body is just a robot and the real "you" is piloting it without realizing one's body is actually very small and in a pilot and not the robot itself.

Kibagami

Well… the problem is that we didn't really see much of a personality with Frankfried and even less so with Lasso (Even though he dreams of being a fire hydrant haha).

And even if it can be explained as a demon, what are the implications? That a DF user could pull a "Narootoe" and consult the demon on how to be stronger? I think not, and I'm sure you'll agree. My point is… it wouldn't be so, unless there was a good reason - is there? I doubt it.

I blame Naruto for fucking up that whole motif of the inner demon; Kishimoto's twin brother did a way better job of the same motif in '666 Satan' for anyone who's interested.

Malintex_Terek

@Kibagami:

Well… the problem is that we didn't really see much of a personality with Frankfried and even less so with Lasso (Even though he dreams of being a fire hydrant haha).

That's because both are Zoans, animal demons if you will that don't have the ability to speak. Remember, Chopper can speak human language because of his fruit, other Zoans who were originally human can speak in their Beastman forms, but Pierre, Gun Fall's zoan mix, couldn't speak in any form.

I'd expect Paramecia or Logia demons to be a lot more malicious - if this Vegapunk fellow can animate objects using those two fruits and they're also be alive, we might be seeing a lot more interesting things.

@Kibagami:

And even if it can be explained as a demon, what are the implications? That a DF user could pull a "Narootoe" and consult the demon on how to be stronger? I think not, and I'm sure you'll agree. My point is… it wouldn't be so, unless there was a good reason - is there? I doubt it.

I don't know the implications, but I offered some suggestions. If this is a valid theory Oda could take us all over the place with it.

BartholomewKuma

Devil Fruit is a fruit so therefore there's life on it.

TheGentlemanSkeleton

Objects eating fruits is probably a pun. Vegapunk most likely fused the fruit with the object himself.

Gorlom

@TheGentlemanSkeleton:

Objects eating fruits is probably a pun. Vegapunk most likely fused the fruit with the object himself.

That doesn't really change anything…

VL7

Hmmmm, but every devil fruit weapon we have seen used a Zoan, thats why they created the illusion of actually being alive. I actually had the thought that those zoan weapons are just empty shells at first and Vegapunk creates a simple cyborg out of them.

If the DF actually had some kind of consciousness in them I'd expect DF users strugelling with these demons or whatever they might be. Also, if you made a weapon with a logia, like fire for example, how would that have consciousness, in the end its just a flame…or we'd have a will"o"wisp flying around, oh well.

BartholomewKuma

@VL7:

Hmmmm, but every devil fruit weapon we have seen used a Zoan, thats why they created the illusion of actually being alive. I actually had the thought that those zoan weapons are just empty shells at first and Vegapunk creates a simple cyborg out of them.

Cyborgs are humans.

Deicide

I imagine that zoan fruits have the innate instincts of their animal forms. Also, remember that, in OP world, objects can have some kind of "soul". Merry comes to mind first, but look at how Zoro treats his swords. In Logue Town, Zoro let Kitetsu "choose" if he was worthy of carrying it. In Thriller Bark, he gave Yubashiri its last rites because it was a "dead sword".

I believe that there is some kind of empathy between a weapon and its user. When you insert a fruit power into a weapon, the user can control the power. If the fruit is a zoan, the weapon can also have a "living form", but is still completely loyal to its master (maybe even borrowing aspects its master's personality, since Frankfried seemed a little coward to me).

So, if you were to insert, for example, the Mera Mera no Mi (Ace's fruit) into a sword, the swordsman could will the blade into a blade of fire or attack with the sword to create a wave of flames.

Just my theory, anyway.

Gorlom

@BartholomewKuma:

Cyborgs are humans.

Cyborg = Cybernetic Organism.

Nothing states that the organic part needs to be human or humanoid.

(Damn, did I just reply to a troll?)

In one of Oda's earlier editions of One Piece, I think it was the one in his short story anthology Wanted, the pirates use black magic.

lil odz

pretty interesting idea

although im thinking the truth about DFs will be one of the very last things addressed in OP. like during the final arc.

dont believe the hype about vegapunk being in chap 500

King Kobra

I always thought Paramecias were like Parasytes while Logias were more like a representation of the OP planet. Who knows, I say DF are linked to the creation of the Planet Luffy and company lives. Quite farfetched, but it's just one random idea that came to my mind in the instant I saw the title of this thread, so feel free to ridicule it.

I say aliens made it all. Like the Dragon Balls from DB. <_<

The zoans could pretty much be the product of the experimentation of all the "prototypes" of the living beings they were planning to place in the planet they created with the help of the Logia abilities.

So yeah, DF could be nothing but leftovers of whatever was done to create the planet.

Malintex_Terek

@Deicide:

I imagine that zoan fruits have the innate instincts of their animal forms. Also, remember that, in OP world, objects can have some kind of "soul". Merry comes to mind first, but look at how Zoro treats his swords. In Logue Town, Zoro let Kitetsu "choose" if he was worthy of carrying it. In Thriller Bark, he gave Yubashiri its last rites because it was a "dead sword".

There's a difference between objects appearing to have a will of their own and objects being self-conscious. None of the Zoan users we've seen besides Frankfried or Lasso actually "give in" to their instincts, there's no respect for the animal sides when compared to, say, morphing.

I've always defined Devil Fruits as having an element, with three properties of that element - Create, Control, Become. It doesn't matter what the element is, it has one if not two or all of these properties. By this definition, there's no distinction between Zoans having life and Logia/Paramecia having life as well - it's only a matter of how that life manifests.

We've yet to see a Logia or Paramecia fused with a weapon - if we do, and it's alive, I'd say there's a good chance the Devil Fruit 'devils' actually exist.

igetownd

I believe Zoans do subconsciously give into their DFs. Actually all DF users do. I think DF's work by transforming their recipients into slightly different people.

Luffy's character before eating the Gomu Gomu fruit seems to be a kid with fantasies about pirates. Luffy's character after eating the Gomu Gomu is a kid with fantasies who is flexible in solving problems but always direct and stubborn. Kaku was a calm, cool undercover agent before eating his fruit, but after, he suddenly had insecurities about his appearance and had a wacky fighting style. Calipha was very defensive as a secretary, but after the fruit, she became very invasive and sultry.

For inanimate objects, they had no personality originally, but after absorbing a Zoan fruit, they are transformed into animals. The reason is more generally the spirit or essence of a fruit becomes integrated with the user itself, so that the change is permanent and irreversible. That way, fruits are unique and can appear only when its previous user dies. Since inanimate objects cannot die, this would break the rule if they were combined with paramecia or logia fruits, and thus cannot fuse with paramecia and logia fruits.

However, I do agree that DF's may be somewhat sentient and can attract idea users. For example, Blackbeard had to commit mutiny to obtain the Yami Yami fruit. Perhaps the fruits can manipulate destiny so that their ideal users will consume them.

Emperor Time

But Alvida personality did not change even though her looks change when she ate her devil fruit? Also agree that Lasso and Frankfried are not demons but are just animals instead.

KittytheClueless

You thought of this brushing your teeth? Wow.

Anyway, I said this once before in another thread, because it also goes for Luffy's clothes stretching and shrinking like his own person… LOGIC BE DAAAAMNED. It's just a show, anything could happen! But, Vegapunk probly most likely fused the object and the fruit together to create Funkfreed and Lasso. But, how did he even get his hands on Lasso and Funkfreed in the first place? Better yet, if they were originally Vegapunk's, when how did Mr. 4 and Spandam get them?

Kaze

I believe they are living because of the experiments done by teh crazy doctor who made them. If the doc can give a robot a devil fruit and make him that powerful I think making inanimate objects alive isn't a real big deal anymore. :P

igetownd

@Emperor:

But Alvida personality did not change even though her looks change when she ate her devil fruit? Also agree that Lasso and Frankfried are not demons but are just animals instead.

She did. She was coarser in manner when she was fat and ugly. After she was smooth and graceful.

Also Malintex, next time you think of something worth discussing, it's still best to research it out well before posting it in discussion. This is just a suggestion.

Ashura_KingFisher

Lasso + Funkfried = Exploded

Malintex_Terek

@Emperor:

But Alvida personality did not change even though her looks change when she ate her devil fruit?

You missed my point. Alvida was alive when she ate her Devil Fruit - almost everyone who has eaten one prior to this time has been a living being that gained the powers of a "devil". The distinction is, Lasso and Frankfried were originally a gun and sword, not a dog and elephant - they became alive after the Devil Fruit was fused into them. My question is, where did this life come from?

People are saying, "it's because they're Zoans and Zoans are animals" but that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. How is transforming into an animal different from transforming into sand? The sand is still "alive" as far as a Logia is concerned, it's part of the Logia's body and can be manipulated just like any limb or claw. Sand and "animal" both have carbon based cells, there's no particular distinction between them.

@igetownd:

Also Malintex, next time you think of something worth discussing, it's still best to research it out well before posting it in discussion. This is just a suggestion.

I tend to get ideas on whims, and forget them just as easily; having read OP fully like six times, I usually don't have to do research ahead of time beyond a simple thread search to make sure I'm not duplicating an idea.

There is a constraint in that I haven't read Thriller Bark, but know the basic outline of events and a few characters in it.

Is there something I overlooked?

Gorlom

Malintex: Emperor Time was responding to Igetowned concerning his theory on the devilfruits affect on humans/animals eating the fruits. He wasn't missing your point at all.

STAREYe

@Malintex_Terek:

There is a constraint in that I haven't read Thriller Bark, but know the basic outline of events and a few characters in it.

Is there something I overlooked?

[major spoilers averted, I assume based on what you said there that you aren't afraid of me alluding vaguely to plot elements]

There is one thing relating to Vegapunk in there, which is that he designed a cyborg who has a devil's fruit power. That doesn't really have a whole lot to do with this though.

Tsuchirinhon

This is the worst topic I've ever seen.

Ever.

Seen.

Tsuchirinhon

@Malintex_Terek:

From a biological standpoint, life can only come from existing life, not from the inanimate (at least not yet) so this raises the question - why are Lasso and Frankfried alive?

From a scientific standpoint, people can't rip shadows from the ground, seeing as how it is simply an absence of light.

So, this raises the question - why are you still posting shit?

*Meh*

@Malintex_Terek:

There's a difference between objects appearing to have a will of their own and objects being self-conscious. None of the Zoan users we've seen besides Frankfried or Lasso actually "give in" to their instincts, there's no respect for the animal sides when compared to, say, morphing.

The problem is in how inanimate objects can express themselves to let others know that they are self-conscious. Klaubatermann does appear to have a mouth, so it can "speak" as the soul of Merry. Kitetsu missing Zoro's arm might simply be good luck, or a means for an inanimate object without a means to speak to "express itself". Incidentally, about Zoan users giving in to their instincts, didn't Chopper warn the crew that carnivorous Zoans were more dangerous? Lucci certainly did seem more vicious than Kaku, who had a herbivorous Zoan.

@Malitex_Terek:

I've always defined Devil Fruits as having an element, with three properties of that element - Create, Control, Become. It doesn't matter what the element is, it has one if not two or all of these properties. By this definition, there's no distinction between Zoans having life and Logia/Paramecia having life as well - it's only a matter of how that life manifests.

Assuming this definition is correct, then yes. Otherwise, such a distinction does exist, or is superfluous in the face of "determination".

! See Pappag's illustration on how he learned to speak Human language.

@Malitex_Terek:

We've yet to see a Logia or Paramecia fused with a weapon - if we do, and it's alive, I'd say there's a good chance the Devil Fruit 'devils' actually exist.

We could still just as easily say that the weapon had a degree of self-conciousness before eating the Devil Fruit.

Mog

@Cyringohn:

From a scientific standpoint, people can't rip shadows from the ground, seeing as how it is simply an absence of light.

So, this raises the question - why are you still posting shit?

You could basically stifle any discussion about One Piece with arguments like ''it's just a comic'' or ''it doesn't matter'', but (and excuse me for my stereotypical argumentation) where's the fun in that?

That said, considering Oda has obviously given elaborate thought to the mechanics of Devil Fruits and the mythos surrounding them (including the concept of demonic presences) I really don't think Terek's reasoning in this case is all that far fetched. In fact, and I don't say this very often about any of Terek's posts, I think the basic idea (Devil Fruits giving life to inanimate objects) is a pretty interesting one. Also, it could fit Oda's style to a T.

And, uh, yeah, that's kind of all I have to say about the subject. It's kind of impossible to prove or disprove it until Vegapunk shows up, anyway.

skarlath

@Mog:

You could basically stifle any discussion about One Piece with arguments like ''it's just a comic'' or ''it doesn't matter'', but (and excuse me for my stereotypical argumentation) where's the fun in that?

That said, considering Oda has obviously given elaborate thought to the mechanics of Devil Fruits and the mythos surrounding them (including the concept of demonic presences) I really don't think Terek's reasoning in this case is all that far fetched. In fact, and I don't say this very often about any of Terek's posts, I think the basic idea (Devil Fruits giving life to inanimate objects) is a pretty interesting one. Also, it could fit Oda's style to a T.

And, uh, yeah, that's kind of all I have to say about the subject. It's kind of impossible to prove or disprove it until Vegapunk shows up, anyway.

mr chew asian beaver

Tsuchirinhon

@Mog:

You could basically stifle any discussion about One Piece with arguments like ''it's just a comic'' or ''it doesn't matter'', but (and excuse me for my stereotypical argumentation) where's the fun in that?

The fun is that I won't have to burn my eyes by seeing this kind of vomit on the topic list

Gorlom

skarlath: I had to google that to see what you meant… and i still don't understand. what does a pornsite have to do with anything?

Edit: nvm noticed its mogs custom title.

*Meh*

Add This Person to My Ignore List. Learn It, Live It, Love It.

Tsuchirinhon

i'ma add all these poo-poo headz to my ignore thing

nya-nya-boo-boo

Mog

@skarlath:

mr chew asian beaver

grr you piss me off

The fun is that I won't have to burn my eyes by seeing this kind of vomit on the topic list

Well, you know, I sympathize with this position somewhat considering some of the posts in this thread, but the initial idea itself isn't that out there in the slightest. Minus the bogus scientific humbug it would fit Oda's style seamlessly.

So, yeah, you know.

it's okay if you're just trying to annoy Terek though

Tsuchirinhon

@Mog:

but the initial idea itself isn't that out there in the slightest.

Mog

The initial idea being, of course, that it's the demonic presence in Devil Fruits ''possessing'' inanimate objects that gives stuff like Lasso and Funkfreed their life.

Which isn't very, you know, scientific.

also your mom

Tsuchirinhon

The idea of attempting to rationalize and explain something that is FANTASY, DERP is the fucking definition of science. He came up with the hypothesis and is now attempting to test it through evaluation.

Of course, the sad and funny part is that there is no basis for his hypothesis aside from it being something his brilliant mind came up with while brushing his teeth. Terek-sama, atamagaii~

Kuroneko

The main idea seems to be very forced to be honest. We don't know yet if there are really demons dwelling in the fruits, and the theory about Vegapunk seems to be more acceptable and reasonable. Also, this:

@Malintex_Terek:

There's a difference between objects appearing to have a will of their own and objects being self-conscious.

Do you have any proof about this difference?

The Dude

I hate this topic.

Lobster Pot-Sticker

I love this topic <3

:wub:

Malintex_Terek

@STAREYe:

There is one thing relating to Vegapunk in there, which is that he designed a cyborg who has a devil's fruit power. That doesn't really have a whole lot to do with this though.

This I've been hearing a lot about, and I agree, it doesn't change things because the cyborg isn't a robot, it's a living organism with cybernetic implants.

@Cyringohn:

From a scientific standpoint, people can't rip shadows from the ground, seeing as how it is simply an absence of light.

I don't see your point. Truly, OP is a magic manga - there's a lot of stuff Oda just does for fun to make the story fresh and exciting. But at the same time, he does try to involve "mad science" is just as much an element of pulp fiction as fantasy creatures like mermaids and vampires are; especially given how both objects were given life through "science" it should be quite appropriate to discuss them in such a sense.

@Cyringohn:

So, this raises the question - why are you still posting shit?

Why are you suck a weak troll? :(

@_Meh_:

Incidentally, about Zoan users giving in to their instincts, didn't Chopper warn the crew that carnivorous Zoans were more dangerous? Lucci certainly did seem more vicious than Kaku, who had a herbivorous Zoan.

Chopper met Carnivorous Zoans long before seeing Lucci; Chaka, Pell, Lasso all were based on meat-eating animals. He didn't comment on their alleged brutality, Oda only brought it up to emphasize Lucci's and Jabura's already vicious tendencies.

Beyond that one line, however, there's no reference to the Zoan's "animal brain" influencing the Zoan user in any way, unlike the case when someone morphs. The only time we've seen something with an "animal brain" is with Lasso and Frankfried, in the absence of a human one. Not even with Pierre, the other animal-animal Zoan user, did we see the conflict of a horse mind with the bird one.

@_Meh_:

Assuming this definition is correct, then yes. Otherwise, such a distinction does exist, or is superfluous in the face of "determination".

! See Pappag's illustration on how he learned to speak Human language.

I did some research on what that "Pappag" is, but I should say that I think it could speak some kind of language before learning that of humans - it was already intelligent enough to communicate verbally, and is an "advanced animal" insofar as that is complex communication. It's a different case from the unintelligent Lasso and Frankfried.

To take another example, Pierre isn't an intelligent animal, or at least not intelligent enough to speak a language, let alone that of humans.

@_Meh_:

We could still just as easily say that the weapon had a degree of self-conciousness before eating the Devil Fruit.

The only way I could buy that is if Frankfried and Lasso were loved/care for before becoming Zoans, and it would have to be exception as in the case of Merry, rather than a magic enchantment as in the case with Zoro's sword, Even then, it doesn't explain why Lasso and Frankfried act like a dog/elephant - if they acted "human" or like a "companion" a la Merry, it would make more sense.

@Kuroneko:

Do you have any proof about this difference?

I can give you a thought proof for it, but I should clarify first that what I mean to say was there's multiple-levels of self- conscious - Zoro's sword appears to have a will of its own, and an objective, but we don't know if it's self aware, i.e. capable of speaking to Zoro or thinking on its own. Does it free think or merely ascribe itself to just the action of killing?

This is why I'd categorize Merry on a human-level as far as conscious goes - not only does it have a will, it has a mind and can think critically, not to mention speak. If Zoro's sword had a spirit, it could function much the same way, but otherwise I think that it's action is just determined by the enchantment on the blade itself.

Tsuchirinhon

@Malintex_Terek:

I don't see your point. Truly, OP is a magic manga - there's a lot of stuff Oda just does for fun to make the story fresh and exciting. But at the same time, he does try to involve "mad science" is just as much an element of pulp fiction as fantasy creatures like mermaids and vampires are; especially given how both objects were given life through "science" it should be quite appropriate to discuss them in such a sense.

Both objects were given life by stuffing a swirly-styled magical fruits inside of them.

@Malintex_Terek:

Why are you suck a weak troll? :(

You're the one replying to the posts.

Gorlom

Beyond that one line, however, there's no reference to the Zoan's "animal brain" influencing the Zoan user in any way, unlike the case when someone morphs. The only time we've seen something with an "animal brain" is with Lasso and Frankfried, in the absence of a human one. Not even with Pierre, the other animal-animal Zoan user, did we see the conflict of a horse mind with the bird one.

there is the human model zoan that affected chopper and that would "give enlightenment" to any human that ate it.

Solar Knight

@Malintex_Terek:

Why are you suck a weak troll? :(

I saw you dodge that question.

Lobster Pot-Sticker

@Solar:

I saw you dodge that question.

He didn't dodge it

It simply wasn't worth his time.