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    Would you buy bad anime?

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    • Malintex_Terek
      Malintex_Terek
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      Malintex_Terek
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      This is a bit related to the fansub discussions, but since I don't want to get involved with that directly (too much to talk about) I'll start with this.

      Let's assume one downloads a typical 26-episode anime series online, finding it to be utter garbage. I know of a particular 13-episode show that fits this description (Goshuushou-sama Ninomiya-kun) that I ended up watching more or less completely. Kaibutsu Oujo was more similar to the twenty six sized show, and I watched that fully for sure.

      Now, let's take this series, license it, dub it and get DVDs on the market (two years after airing) - having a bad experience, so much so that one wrote a bad review about it, would one purchase the show out of moral obligation from having seen it? Or would one justify the poor quality of the anime as fair rationale for pirating it?

      MUV-LUV ALTERNATIVE

      Making Anime and Manga OBSOLETE since 2006

      PM me for details

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        Aceburner
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        Would you buy a copy of Superman 64 to feel better about emulating it?

        Because I'd say playing it once is punishment enough.

        Banner by 8bit of Otakuboards. I'm using it here too because it's that awesome.

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        • Solar Knight
          Solar Knight
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          Solar Knight
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          Solar Knight
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          You could watch it with friends and add commentary throughout the whole thing.

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          • Taleran
            Taleran
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            Taleran
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            Well I guess if I wanted to just throw my money away I would

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            • GEPPETTOSMONSTER
              GEPPETTOSMONSTER
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              i'd buy it just to say "I have that"

              Member of Negima is Super Awesome

              MY YOUTUBE channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/Mcwhirlpoolinc?feature=mhee

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              • K
                Kitsu Kusanagi @GEPPETTOSMONSTER
                @GEPPETTOSMONSTER last edited by
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                Kitsu Kusanagi
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                Moral quandries! My one weakness!

                But seriously, I see the point of downloading episodes of a series as more of a "Sampler" than anything. If it's good, then the only reason I'd keep downloading it is because I can't buy it here, like when I download Neuro or Reborn. If it's bad or simply not worth my time, I move on to something else, delete the episode from my comp, and don't bother with it. If, however, I happen to find that series on DVD here, I'd probably just shrug and tell myself that someone else is bound to like it. Also, I don't trust most download sources, which is why I opted to buy the Princess Tutu Complete Collection rather than looking for a torrent. Worth every penny, btw.

                "Sometimes when you take away everything a man has, you destroy him. But sometimes when you take away everything a man has, you create a man who has nothing to lose."

                JUS: 4811-5122-5116

                Malintex_Terek 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • AWB
                  AWB
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                  No, that's why I own the subs of Shaman King and not the 4KIDS DVDs.

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                  • Cap'n Carter
                    Cap'n Carter
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                    Why would I buy something that I know is bad

                    I have much better things to spend money on

                    the bigot who thinks being an asshole is actually worth shit

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                    • Malintex_Terek
                      Malintex_Terek @Kitsu Kusanagi
                      @Kitsu Kusanagi last edited by
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                      So for most of you, morality isn't an issue - there's no pressure to buy something having seen it for free online.

                      @Kitsu:

                      But seriously, I see the point of downloading episodes of a series as more of a "Sampler" than anything. If it's good, then the only reason I'd keep downloading it is because I can't buy it here, like when I download Neuro or Reborn. If it's bad or simply not worth my time, I move on to something else, delete the episode from my comp, and don't bother with it. If, however, I happen to find that series on DVD here, I'd probably just shrug and tell myself that someone else is bound to like it. Also, I don't trust most download sources, which is why I opted to buy the Princess Tutu Complete Collection rather than looking for a torrent. Worth every penny, btw.

                      This is the sort of mentality I'm trying to understand. Why? Economically speaking you're actually being inefficient toward maximizing your happiness by spending money to buy a show that you can see for free online at a higher quality than what you can buy. Even if you derive some satisfaction from "putting money in the hands of dubbers", that money you spent could easily be used to purchase something that would gain more satisfaction for you, like buying a car or going out on a date.

                      I feel this topic has almost expired as far as "discuss-ability" goes, so I'll have to extend the question with a bit of background on the anime industry and why I don't understand why there's so much cock-sucking surrounding it. I'll be testing out the "Terek Terse Transcripts" (TTT) writing style for the too long didn't read folk - here's hoping it's effective!

                      …

                      OK, first off, not all market transactions are mutually beneficial. Sometimes there are winners and losers - someone gains (profits) while someone else loses (satisfaction). The market for "most anime" now fits this state - people spend a large amount of cash ($15-$25) for a 4-episode anime DVD they know nothing about, thinking it might be entertaining. The anime companies disguise the content of the DVD by keeping the packaging uniform and the flavour text very vague. If someone buys the DVD, he/she accumulates negative satisfaction if he/she hated the show, while the corporation wins the price of the DVD - a win/loss scenario. Most are too prideful to return the anime to the retailer and demand money back.

                      Online anime makes it so someone has more information and can avoid "traps" like this, where they buy anime and find out it sucks. Only, they can find out it sucks online and not have to spend money. Even if they lose satisfaction from having spent time to watch the show, as long as they consider the English DVD's price as the opportunity cost, they're still gaining because they didn't spend the money, which would have cost them more than the negative satisfaction.

                      My question is, why do people who are still willing to buy official hardcopy anime do so when the anime is bad? I can totally understand for good anime, there's positive surplus there, but for bad anime? Why?

                      People blame fansubs as the primary reason anime companies are losing money; people can watch the shows online and thus judge if it's bad or not, and if enough people do this no one will buy the bad anime online so the corporations won't license it and the anime companies will be forced to make better, more expensive stuff. WHICH IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE - why would anyone want an environment that fosters production of bad anime?

                      'tis ridiculous.

                      MUV-LUV ALTERNATIVE

                      Making Anime and Manga OBSOLETE since 2006

                      PM me for details

                      Ramza M 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
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                        Mister_Anbu
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                        Bad is relative to the individual.

                        However, assuming they also agree that it is bad and still go out and buy it, one can only assume that that person is incapable of spending money wisely; i.e. they are stupid.

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                        • ?
                          DougyDougyGiro!*
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                          DougyDougyGiro!*
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                          Next time Terek. Next time.

                          Malintex_Terek 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • Malintex_Terek
                            Malintex_Terek @Guest
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                            @Mister_Anbu:

                            Bad is relative to the individual.

                            There are some objectives we can agree on, though.

                            1. A person is more likely to like something if he/she hasn't see much before it. How many Naruto fans kicked off their anime careers with Naruto? There's no standard for comparison in this state, so obviously many are going to consider it the best, representative show of anime they've seen.

                            2. Low budget art/animation, disjointed/unrelated plot flow, are going to reflect negatively on a show provided the first objective holds true (that is, as people watch more anime, they pay more attention to plot, originality and budget).

                            @Mister_Anbu:

                            However, assuming they also agree that it is bad and still go out and buy it, one can only assume that that person is incapable of spending money wisely; i.e. they are stupid.

                            That's rather tough for me to swallow.

                            @DougyDougyGiro!*:

                            Next time Terek. Next time.

                            I don't follow, elaborate if you would.

                            MUV-LUV ALTERNATIVE

                            Making Anime and Manga OBSOLETE since 2006

                            PM me for details

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                            • M
                              Mister_Anbu
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                              It's not that hard to swallow. Look around this forum or narutofan forums, or anything of that nature. It becomes quite obvious that there are some really dumb people out there. People blow money of the most random of things.

                              It's not like it really matters how they spend their money anyways. What really matters is how you spend your money.

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                              • Ramza
                                Ramza @Malintex_Terek
                                @Malintex_Terek last edited by
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                                @Malintex_Terek:

                                People blame fansubs as the primary reason anime companies are losing money; people can watch the shows online and thus judge if it's bad or not, and if enough people do this no one will buy the bad anime online so the corporations won't license it and the anime companies will be forced to make better, more expensive stuff. WHICH IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE - why would anyone want an environment that fosters production of bad anime?

                                'tis ridiculous.

                                but they wont make it better, because they see fansubs as the cause for net loss w/e…

                                people are greedy, people see free stuff better than buying stuff;
                                since we are greedy, we see other people the same way...

                                companies know people are greedy, they can use more money to make their anime better quality,

                                but in the end, no matter how much it cost, fansubs make it free...ideal for greedy people...so anime companies will get a bigger net loss

                                e.g. before- anime $9, fansub $0
                                after improving the product, thus rising production cost, price of good rise

                                anime $12, fansub $0
                                simple supply/demand, one can instantly tell which is better, even if they lose money, they can lose less money before the change, now, they just lose more

                                i hope what i just type sounds clear

                                Brawl Name: Ramza

                                Brawl Code: 1805-1932-2783

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                                • TakinawaTonfa
                                  TakinawaTonfa @Ramza
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                                  At the end of the day, "bad" is still subjective.

                                  As far as I see it, if don't like x anime, you don't like x anime. Incentive to buy = zilch. Thats cool.

                                  However, using "It's bad" as some sort of justification to continue to download said licensed, dubbed (and subbed for that matter) illegally is just flat out dishonest and stupid.

                                  Sandai Mera 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • Sandai Mera
                                    Sandai Mera @TakinawaTonfa
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                                    Don't people do that with Naruto?

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                                    • M
                                      Mumbo @Malintex_Terek
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                                      @Malintex_Terek:

                                      So for most of you, morality isn't an issue - there's no pressure to buy something having seen it for free online.

                                      Well, like you're saying, if it was good I would go out and buy it and if it's shit then I won't. I do feel guilty when I illegally download or watch something online that I really like.

                                      My question is, why do people who are still willing to buy official hardcopy anime do so when the anime is bad? I can totally understand for good anime, there's positive surplus there, but for bad anime? Why?

                                      Some people just buy it because it's anime. They want to expand their collection even if half of it is shit. Seriously, I've seen this more than once, not just with anime but with movies too. People just like filling up their DVD racks.

                                      That and some people like to play the moral high ground and say "Well I bought it out of principle because I stole it earlier so that makes me better than you." And this is often because they were preaching at someone who downloaded fansubs or something.

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                                      • W
                                        windtriforce
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                                        No, I would not buy anime that I don't like. Also, about the downloading anime from the internet it is the same thing as watching a show on television. If you like the show, obviously you would buy the DVDs of the show, but if you don't like the show, why you would want to waste money on something that you hate? I know I would not waste money on shows that I hate.

                                        Avatar from: http://www.chez-celine.org/mangas-one-piece-avatars.htm

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                                        • taboo
                                          taboo
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                                          n o

                                          ![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart")![](images/smilies/ipb/heart.png "Heart") ![](images/smilies/taboo/tabs.png "Ron Swanson")

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                                          • *Meh*
                                            *Meh*
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                                            *Meh*
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                                            @Malintex:

                                            People blame fansubs as the primary reason anime companies are losing money; people can watch the shows online and thus judge if it's bad or not, and if enough people do this no one will buy the bad anime online so the corporations won't license it and the anime companies will be forced to make better, more expensive stuff. WHICH IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE - why would anyone want an environment that fosters production of bad anime?

                                            How can they make "better, more expensive stuff" if they are losing money? How does one measure "better", anyway? Is it a quantifiable measurement, as the '0 to 5 stars' system tries to indicate, or is it qualifiable, that is, does it stand out from the "bad" on the merit of certain inherent qualities?

                                            There are some qualities all good anime (or good performances in general) possess. They are all well-written, well-designed, and well-acted. This requires talent from everyone involved in the process, and as you might expect, talented people have to eat and pay bills too. Additionally, they cannot create more time as they need, so the number of projects that talented people can devote themselves to at any given time is not high.

                                            Of course this only addresses the production of the original series, not the marketability thereof. A quick glance at the methods employed by advertising and marketing firms show that these people deal in money, which is not qualifiable. Money is not "better" than other money, there is only more or less of it in the possession of people. So advertising and marketing firms are not interested in whether an anime is "better" than any other on the air; their only concern is whether or not it is more or less marketable than another series.

                                            Unfortunately, money is the bottom line for every company, be they in marketing, animation, or casting. So the potential profit margin of a series largely determines how much of a company's resources are devoted to it. Good scripts might lie around for years before ever being picked up for production, while utter schlock gets the green light simply because it is more merchandisable. Whether or not you think a series is "bad" is immaterial, unless you are part of a test group, in which case you get to watch a brief demo put together with the express purpose of making the series as appealing as possible. Moreover, being part of a test group may require some "flexibility" of your standards- if you want to continue being part of the test group, that is.

                                            In short, whether or not you the individual actually pay good money for a series has no bearing on the improvement of animation. Only the profit estimates based on the performance of other, similar series will determine that. Why do you think originality is so rare?

                                            I'm like Hisotensoku: Not here to preserve peace, nor to destroy it. I certainly can't move mountains. Mostly, I'm just full of hot air.- Meh

                                            stephen Malintex_Terek 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                            • stephen
                                              stephen
                                              Envoy
                                              @*Meh*
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                                              Well that about wraps this thread up.

                                              https://twitter.com/translatosaurus

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                                              • Lord Starfish
                                                Lord Starfish
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                                                It's a bit difficult for me to say, as the only anime I've ever truly disliked (Naruto Shippuuden, Da Capo Second Season) are continuations of series I did in fact like, and would definitely buy if they were released. (Saying "would" because Da Capo isn't licensed, and I doubt it ever will be) I also hate having an incomplete collection, so I might eventually end up buying those anyway because my collection wouldn't be complete otherwise. What I can say for sure though, is that I won't buy Shaman King even if it does get a complete, uncut release. I have nothing against the show, but apart from the openings, it just wasn't very good.

                                                So I guess it depends on wether it's a standalone series, in which case I wouldn't buy it, or if it's just one bad season of an otherwise good show, which I might end up buying to complete my collection.

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                                                • captain usopp
                                                  captain usopp
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                                                  I do care about morals, but I would not buy a crappy anime if I had seen it online. for me, it is like flipping through magazines before buying them. I don't wanna waste my money, so I'm checking it out first. If I like it, I will buy it.

                                                  I'm so buying Toward the Terra when it is released, and without fansubs I wouldn't even know it existed.

                                                  also, I don't reward companies for releasing bad anime. You bring over the good stuff, you get my money. This includes bad dubs. I love ES21, but I'm not suporting the american version.

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                                                  • Crossword
                                                    Crossword
                                                    Warlord Mod
                                                    @captain usopp
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                                                    I don't really understand this mentality of purchasing something that you have watched and disliked or felt unsatisfied with. It's a waste of money, and an insult to a person's taste.

                                                    I, for example, am currently rewatching the first RAW series I ever watched. The art is mostly mediocre in the season I'm on, the production values are pretty low, movements stiff, and despite being shonen, the action scenes are slideshows. The only reason I'm watching it is a mixture of nostalgia and completionism. If it were dubbed, would I purchase it? No, because I find the story to be dumb and the art bad. I like to purchase things that I consider quality, otherwise, it's a waste to buy something that I'll flip through or watch once or twice and never touch again.

                                                    If I ever do watch something I'm utterly disgusted with, I'd drop it then and there, and just read Wiki or whatever to see how the story ends.

                                                    ~Stargazer~, ~Distance~ original stories.

                                                    3DS Friend Code: 2234-8294-8917

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                                                    • Malintex_Terek
                                                      Malintex_Terek @*Meh*
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                                                      @_Meh_:

                                                      How can they make "better, more expensive stuff" if they are losing money? How does one measure "better", anyway? Is it a quantifiable measurement, as the '0 to 5 stars' system tries to indicate, or is it qualifiable, that is, does it stand out from the "bad" on the merit of certain inherent qualities?

                                                      At the fundamental level, all media revolves around cultural taste - if people start to undergo a change in taste, the media has to adapt to continue to make money for its creators.

                                                      I define better as pretty much the opposite of the current trends in anime - the outsourcing, the fanservice pump in DVDs, the streamlined/generic plots and unoriginal twists, the "mainstream" artstyle and the overall cheapening production.

                                                      As Carter likes to say, the transition to TV was the first deathblow to the ever-cheapening quality of animation, but if TV was the first, DVD was the second - most anime companies nowadays no longer rely on television revenue because cultural taste in Japan has modulated away from anime as an acceptable for of entertainment for adults. ooshi commented on this nearly two years ago, and it seems things have gotten worse, if one keeps track of the number of shows getting animes in recent times.

                                                      I don't think it's quantifiable without going into the mechanics of the anime - it's very objective to say whether or not something has better animation, for example. For even other aspects it's impossible - we can't objectively claim if a certain colour or artstyle is superior or not to another, or a certain voice actor. We can comment on the actor's intonation and voice range, but not who is the better thespian.

                                                      @_Meh_:

                                                      In short, whether or not you the individual actually pay good money for a series has no bearing on the improvement of animation. Only the profit estimates based on the performance of other, similar series will determine that. Why do you think originality is so rare?

                                                      True, but my issue with that is the "downward spiral". Let's take the example of Shakugan no Shana Second, which was my big series last season and tuned out to be a total turd. In the first season of anime, the show was well regarded and sold well - this lead to the creation of a movie which sold as well, and various merchandise. A great way to start off the show.

                                                      Why did Shana II suck? Fanservice. Not so much as ZnT II, but the show show was swamped by pandering at the cost of plot and coherence. We already know this series is marketable, and successful - why change the formula deliberately? Herein lies the paradox.

                                                      Event #1 - anime otaku buy the Shana DVDs, SnS II > SnS in sales. JC Staff decides to make more but adds even more fanservice since it appears the fanservice is what generated more sales, as the staff and budget were identical to the first series.

                                                      Event #2 - anime otaku don't buy the Shana DVDs, SnS > SnS II. JC Staff doesn't animate anymore of the series, it dies a quiet death having been disgraced by some idiot's horrible moe fetish.

                                                      Herein lies my #1 biggest beef with the Japanese industry - the whole market system of DVDs basically gears the show to pander to the lowest common denominator of a consumer, a person who thinks with his cock and not with his brain. This makes anime little better than porn, minus the explicit content.

                                                      MUV-LUV ALTERNATIVE

                                                      Making Anime and Manga OBSOLETE since 2006

                                                      PM me for details

                                                      Sandai Mera 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                                      • Sandai Mera
                                                        Sandai Mera @Malintex_Terek
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                                                        @Malintex_Terek:

                                                        Herein lies my #1 biggest beef with the Japanese industry - the whole market system of DVDs basically gears the show to pander to the lowest common denominator of a consumer, a person who thinks with his cock and not with his brain. This makes anime little better than porn, minus the explicit content.

                                                        Makes me wonder why I stopped watching Godanner.

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