Who defeated Roger? My Theory around the entire series (but it isn´t a dumb one)

Urian

According to the manga we know that:

1. Garp is a hero of the marines that cornered Roger several times

2. Garp and Dragon have got an huge closing relationship because they are father and son.

3. We don´t know who really defeated Roger but we know that the man wasn´t Garp or Whitebeard and in the case of Whitebeard he is the stronger one.

4. Kuma seems to know about Dragon and Luffy relationship

I know that is very soon for making this type of speculations but I believe that the one who defeated Roger was Dragon in his youth after a fight that the Pirate King lost and after this he was completely defeated.

Where did Roger die? In Logue Town, a place that is in East Blue and very near the place that is controled by Garp, I believe that both of them fought against Roger, Garp was defeated but Dragon was the one who captured Roger.

I know that it could sound very lame but when Shanks said to Whitebeard "I put my arm for the sake of a new generation" he knew that Luffy was special, the son of Dragon, the man who defeated Roger has more opportunities than any other one to surpass him, this is why he gave the hat to Luffy in a similar manner that Mihawk have done with Zoro.

After defeating Roger Dragon was put in the position of the chief admiral, you must rememember that Robin flashback was 3 years after the defeat of the Pirate King and in the same flashback Sengoku is an admiral and Aokiji and Aikanu are named Kuzan and Sakaguchi (sorry if I spelled the name in the wrong way) but Oda didn´t told us who was the chief admiral.

And chronology is this:

23 years ago: Roger is defeated and captured by Dragon. After this event Dragon becomes the chief admiral of the navy

20 years ago: Ohara is destroyed by the World Government. Dragon continues being the chief admiral.

5 years ago: Dragon defected from the World Government and because his strenght and knowledge he becomes the man with the higher bounty of all.

The other part of the story is related to the Shichibukai (Crocodile in particular) and the weapons.

-Crocodile organized a revolution in Arabasta, just the same that Dragon and his comrades are doing, with the important fact that in Arabasta we can find Pluton.

-After the Crocodile incident, WG could have become very nervous and activated another attempt to make their another Pluton (Water 7-Ennies Lobby saga) but at the end they failed because instead of targeting Franky alone they targeted Nico Robin putting strawhats in the middle of the plan.

And for finishing my dumbass theory we have Kuma… why is he a robot? He is enhaced to be more stronger but he isn´t completed yet and we can conclude that if he isn´t completed then he need to be attached to something that is outside Vegapunk possibilities and I believe that this is the same weapon that Dragon and Marines are looking at the same time.

Lobster Pot-Sticker

Carp defeated Roger

we have Kuma… why is he a robot?

C-Y-B-O-R-G

part bear part robot

Kempo

There is on question garp was not the one who took down roger, but dragon seems to be out of the question alittle as well. There was someone who was as strong if not stronger than roger who captured him, knowing oda it could only have been a D.

King Kobra

That's such an irrelevant question at this point, but If I had to share my oppinnion, I would say he gave up for some reason we may find out at the end of the story.

Impel Down

Why do you think that Garp controls Loguetown? That was never said at any point, nor was it hinted towards.

And since Roger was such a major force against the WG, why would Dragon have stopped that?

Urian

@Impel:

Why do you think that Garp controls Loguetown? That was never said at any point, nor was it hinted towards.

And since Roger was such a major force against the WG, why would Dragon have stopped that?

Because Dragon was part of the navy and a vice-admiral like his father?

Because Loguetown is in the East Blue and both of them are from the East Blue?

Remember that Garp took Helmeppo and Coby when he returned after a long trip to the east blue which is his home since his grandson lives in an island of the east blue.

King Kobra

It's smoker who "controls" logue town, or at least he did untill he left to chase after Luffy and company.

Anyways, we don't even know if Luffy and Ace were born in East Blue.

Mugiwara No Hermy

I don't think that Dragon had anything to do with the capture of Roger. My personal belief is that Roger turned himself in for whatever reason.

Also, we don't know that much about Dragon. We know he's dangerous, he's Luffy's father and he's a revolutionary. He's also in possession of one of the most powerful devul fruit abilities.

whaleblue

@Urian:

4. Kuma seems to know about Dragon and Luffy relationship

Everyone knows Dragon because he is so famous, except simple minded like Luffy.
He is the most wanted person on planet one piece.

Kuma knows Luffy is Dragon's son because Gasp told him so. This is what i believe. :happy:

Urian

I have forgotten something.

Marijoea is nicknamed the holy land right?

According the Christian religion, the devil was the Dragon that was casted out and he had been the most powerful angel of God, we can apply the same analogy here with Dragon, Marijoea and the Navy.

Another important point is about Kuma being incomplete and Pluton being his last part. He is holding a bible and perhaps the bible is an indirect meaning related with all this.

The man who has the bible in his hands in the One Piece world is a pirate-cyborg designed by the WG for defeating the devil (Dragon) of the one piece world.

Seal of Legends

I believe this sort of speculation belongs in the "Theories that don't deserve their own thread" thread.

Generic_Soda

@Urian:

I have forgotten something.

Marijoea is nicknamed the holy land right?

According the Christian religion, the devil was the Dragon that was casted out and he had been the most powerful angel of God, we can apply the same analogy here with Dragon, Marijoea and the Navy.

Another important point is about Kuma being incomplete and Pluton being his last part. He is holding a bible and perhaps the bible is an indirect meaning related with all this.

The man who has the bible in his hands in the One Piece world is a pirate-cyborg designed by the WG for defeating the devil (Dragon) of the one piece world.

You… Are a clever person.

Sanctum

urine is a smart guy

Captain Brooke

Satan was NOT the strongest angel, he had the sweetest and best music, but he was NOT the strongest! Just a correction!:ninja:

And, I don't believe Roger was defeated, I believe he was just caught, because if he and Whitebeard were equal in power, then the same guy could have just went and whip Whitebeards booty too, I think the person that caught him, caught his crew, and threaten to kill them, or something in that area, and he gave up for his crew!

Khamolen

@Urian:

I have forgotten something.

Marijoea is nicknamed the holy land right?

According the Christian religion, the devil was the Dragon that was casted out and he had been the most powerful angel of God, we can apply the same analogy here with Dragon, Marijoea and the Navy.

Another important point is about Kuma being incomplete and Pluton being his last part. He is holding a bible and perhaps the bible is an indirect meaning related with all this.

The man who has the bible in his hands in the One Piece world is a pirate-cyborg designed by the WG for defeating the devil (Dragon) of the one piece world.

The WG definitely is meant to represent God. This was made clear in an SBS question. Someone asked if the WG striking down Sodom & Gomorrah was meant to represent their godly power, and Oda said "Yes. You're absolutely right."

skarlath

Despite some really far stretches of faith (Lougetown mainly) I actually think that some of this hold true. At least the Dragon being a high up Marine… as for Roger... dunno, were we told that it was NOT garp?

Impel Down

From what I remember, Lucifer, who later became Satan, was casted out of Heaven because he and some other angels rebelled against God and were sent to Hell. He wasn't a Dragon, though, but he had Dragons under his control. He was also not considered the most powerful, but he was in the upper tier.

As to the "incomplete part" being Pluton, why would someone make a robot that's final piece is a machine that no one knows what it is, looks like, how it works, or even knows where it is? They wouldn't, is the answer.

Captain Brooke

@Impel:

From what I remember, Lucifer, who later became Satan, was casted out of Heaven because he and some other angels rebelled against God and were sent to Hell. He wasn't a Dragon, though, but he had Dragons under his control. He was also not considered the most powerful, but he was in the upper tier.

As to the "incomplete part" being Pluton, why would someone make a robot that's final piece is a machine that no one knows what it is, looks like, how it works, or even knows where it is? They wouldn't, is the answer.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention he wasn't a dragon either, he was and is a fallen angel!

Seven

Interesting theory.

Am I the only one who think that Garp was demoted to v-admiral when his son become a revolutionary?

Anyway at that time,I think the 3 admirals during the Ohara incident/when Roger around is Garp,Sengoku and the yellow monkey(same one right now).But I don't think Dragon is the grand chief admiral…still I think he's the cause of Garp's demotion.

Impel Down

I don't think Garp is really Admiral-material. I mean, sure, he's physically strong, but that's not really the kind of power that can put people around the world to their knees. Crazy Ice Powers, however, kinda are. I'm not saying he's weak, I'm just saying he's not really threatening enough.

Seven

@Impel:

I don't think Garp is really Admiral-material. I mean, sure, he's physically strong, but that's not really the kind of power that can put people around the world to their knees. Crazy Ice Powers, however, kinda are. I'm not saying he's weak, I'm just saying he's not really threatening enough.

Sure he doesn't have any DF ability but still he was mention by Whitebeard along with Sengoku and he cornered the most powerful pirate of all time. Not powerful enough? I'll doubt so. He himself say his power is diminishing as he gets older.

And it's funny if his rank is lower than vice-admiral when he cornered gold roger and to remain a vice-admiral for 20 years? Nah. That's why I theorise that he lost his rank and remain a vice-admiral ever since.

Kaze

I like the whole holy lan= navy dragon = satan.

But just to clear things up (( because I feel I must share my two scents worth,)) Satan was the the most beautiful angel in all of heaven he was god's best creation next to the humans.

Satan decided that he wanted to be in charge, goad said uh… no. Kicked his ass out and in to hell.

Anyways, I also agree that this should go in the "theories that don't deserve their own thread" thread.

Ivotas

@Urian:

Remember that Garp took Helmeppo and Coby when he returned after a long trip to the east blue which is his home since his grandson lives in an island of the east blue.

You are completely making things up here. It was never ever stated that Garp returned from an East Blue trip anywhere. All we know is that he met with Commander Ripper to pick up Morgan from him. It is pretty likely that he came to East Blue just because of that.

@whaleblue:

Everyone knows Dragon because he is so famous, except simple minded like Luffy.

Knowing him doesn´t not mean knowing about his backstory. Even Garps men said that this is the first time they´ve heard Dragons full name, leave alone that they nobody knew about his relation to Luffy.

smith

@Seven:

Sure he doesn't have any DF ability but still he was mention by Whitebeard along with Sengoku and he cornered the most powerful pirate of all time. Not powerful enough? I'll doubt so. He himself say his power is diminishing as he gets older.

You know what troubles me the most about this ?

Whitebeards line goes "Roger. Garp. Sengoku. There aren't very many people who know about the sea back then"

or by Sthepens

"…Roger... Garp... Sengoku...The men who knew how the seas used to be back then have certainly dropped in number."

Why throw in Rogers name in ? Too me it seems wierd.

Admiral Wolfpox

Urian I love your theory. Don't listen to these poopfaces who talk bad about it! Plus I'm sure your creation of this thread was inspired by my own Theory of Everything, which is flattering.

Seriously, I love this theory. I'll give it a lot of thought.

You're on my short list of People to Pay Attention To.

Also, a big LOL goes out to all these people who are so terribly confused about the Bible and Satan.

Emilio

I like your theory Urian, especially the part with Dragon as Sengokû's predecessor. It's probably true.
If he was the Chief Admiral (Hey, that would be a weird family, a Chief, Vice Admiral and a Pirate King), he was probably able to catch Roger.
I will think about that.

CongoJack

me likey idea.

not that i believe it´s all gonna come right down to this exact ending, but i can definetly see dragon having been a marine before he made his exit.

bad guy - good guy changy thingies seem to very popular nowadays.

according to your timeline it could be implied that dragon was capable of burning down ohara and some other really nasty stuff before he somehow realized that the regime he works for is all 1984. And maybe, just maybe, that change of heart might have something to do with the birth of another famous character in the OP world. Now if we just knew who that could have been…

bedrock

If Dragon would have been a marine at any point, the WG would know everything about him - but they didn´t.
So the theory at least in that point cannot be correct.

Emilio

Does White Beard know everything about Black Beard ? No.
How could the Marine ever thought Sauro would act against the Buster Call and desert the government ?
Dragon could have been totally different when he was part of the Marine. Preparing for his big come out. It's even possible that Roger's capture was part of his plan of revolution.

Urian

When Garp reveals that Luffy father is Dragon it seems that the reaction from the rest of marines is because they didn´t know that Garp, Luffy and Dragon were related in some form.

Perhaps I am wrong or perhaps I am right, this is something that just now we don´t know but Dragon should have done something big for getting his high bounty.

FireFistAce 0

I don't think Dragon defeated Roger, but you do bring up some valid points. However, you missed a key one. During the world summit meeting in Dalton's flashback, the man in charge states that Dragon WILL become a threat in a couple years, not that he already is a threat.

Here:

< <speaker: 5="" 6="" the="" revolutionary,="" "dragon"…="" his="" thoughts="" are="" dangerous...="" in="" or="" years,="" he="" will="" be="" a="" large="" thorn="" side="" of="" <br="">governments of the world.

That was 4 years ago, meaning that Dragon was not that big of a concern in recent past, much less 22 years ago.

Also, Dragon is modeled after Sir Francis Drake. In Spain, Drake was considered the world's worst criminal, and was priced at 20,000 ducats (about 100,000,000 Euros in today's money, which was a king's fortune), and was called El Dragon. To everyone but the English, he was a notorious pirate.</speaker:>

Gaiyae

@Captain:

Oh yeah, forgot to mention he wasn't a dragon either, he was and is a fallen angel!

In some versions of the bible Satan and Lucifer aren't the same being.
Satan is the ultimate evil the direct opposite of god, he is also revered to as "dragon" in some parts of the bible. And Lucifer was a angel of the highest rank. He wanted gods trone for himself, and with 1/3 of all angels he started a war. In some versions of the bible Lucifer seems to be the mightiest of angels, others state that there are angels more powerfull them him. Like the tetramorph (i think that was the name xD)

Kater

Okay, let me get you guys straight on Satan and the Bible and whatnot. NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE IS THE NAME LUCIFER MENTIONED. That's right, we get that name from tradition throughout the years. Satan is hebrew, devil is that word in greek. Lucifer is a roman word involving light. So there's the first place you guys were messing up. Another part, no where in the Bible does it say Satan was an angel, actually, it says against that, in the book of job which is the largest account of Satan in the Old Testament, Satan is always excluded from the archangels but still said to be in the court of God. Satan, throughout the old and new testament, was always the one that did God's dirty work and who God appointed to govern the earth. The idea of him being evil was caused by the church, no where in the Bible does it say he actually was evil and against God.

Overon

I didnt read all your theories, but:
First of all it has yet been said that noone ever beat Roger in a fight. It's also been said that Roger was very satisfied with his life, cause he achieved all he ever dreamed of. Another thing thats been said in the manga is, that Garp is the one who "cornered" Roger.

Well, to me cornered means that the marine somehow surrounded the ship ROger was sailing with. So i guess its more likely, that Roger made a deal with the WG, that he goes with them without fighting, but his whole crew may escape. I mean Roger is a "D." as well, and they all seem to have big goals that they aim for. But Rogers achieved everything, so why wouldn't he surrender to the WG if he could save his crews life (or his son's/friends/whatever)? I guess he rather fears a boring life than death.

Kitsune9-TailedBeast

@Overon:

I didnt read all your theories, but:
First of all it has yet been said that noone ever beat Roger in a fight. It's also been said that Roger was very satisfied with his life, cause he achieved all he ever dreamed of. Another thing thats been said in the manga is, that Garp is the one who "cornered" Roger.

Well, to me cornered means that the marine somehow surrounded the ship ROger was sailing with. So i guess its more likely, that Roger made a deal with the WG, that he goes with them without fighting, but his whole crew may escape. I mean Roger is a "D." as well, and they all seem to have big goals that they aim for. But Rogers achieved everything, so why wouldn't he surrender to the WG if he could save his crews life (or his son's/friends/whatever)? I guess he rather fears a boring life than death.

They said Garp cornered him several times, didn't they?

Lobster Pot-Sticker

They said he was "cornered" by Carp

Corned between Carp… and what? The edge of the world? I giant wall? Another Admiral?

Kitsune9-TailedBeast

@Lobster:

They said he was "cornered" by Carp

They were talking about Garp at the time, that sentace wouldn't really fit I think….anybody got the page?

smurfx

@bedrock:

If Dragon would have been a marine at any point, the WG would know everything about him - but they didn´t.
So the theory at least in that point cannot be correct.

if dragon was a marine at some point and turned i think the world government would try to do everything they could to make it seem like they never had anything to do with him. including just calling him dragon as to not associate him with his father. if dragon was just some weak guy trying to start a revolution i don't think the world government would see him as that big of a threat. dragon probably did something huge that made the world government be very afraid of what he can do.

Coolnerd89

If you wanna get technical about satan, they say he was a serpant… Meaning it could be a snake, a lizard, a dragon or anything else.
I kinda like Dragons, so I'm going with that.
But this theory is good, I like it.
Maybe this is where Oda get's his idea's from...

Kater

@Coolnerd89:

If you wanna get technical about satan, they say he was a serpant… Meaning it could be a snake, a lizard, a dragon or anything else.
I kinda like Dragons, so I'm going with that.
But this theory is good, I like it.
Maybe this is where Oda get's his idea's from...

once again, the church associates the serpant with satan though in reality they have no connection. When anything before the Post-exilic period was written, none of it would have involved Satan, since he wasn't an idea. Regarding the larger theory at hand. Who says the Gol D. Roger is even dead. NEVER have we seen him actually die, just right before. Also, no one has ever said he was dead either. I'm going to take this one step further and say that Dragon saved him at Roguetown. Discuss.

Impel Down

He was executed. That means he's dead. They've made it VERY clear that he did in fact die. But of course they aren't going to actually show them killing him, it's a shonen.

If Roger was still alive, also, wouldn't he still be the Pirate King?

Lobster Pot-Sticker

@Impel:

But of course they aren't going to actually show them killing him, it's a shonen.

._.

What types of Shonen are you reading? They all show killing :x

every single one

Impel Down

Not a public execution.

skarlath

Roger is dead. Unless he pulled a Kuro and found a doubleganger they show him being killed every single episode

Lobster Pot-Sticker

They actually showed him being stabbed, and blood coming down in one episode. It may have been the Smoker flashback.

smurfx

@Lobster:

They actually showed him being stabbed, and blood coming down in one episode. It may have been the Smoker flashback.

i think that only happened in the anime.

skarlath

Still, whoever is in charge of the anime would probably ask Oda if they could do that…

They do strive to keep the anime as cannon as possible...

I think...

King Kobra

I doubt any of this will be actually "close" to what Oda is planning.

Nice theories and bases, but you can't think so hard when Oda's so damn flexible with his Story.

Lobster Pot-Sticker

Manga has a low frame rate

It still happened, it just wasn't in "motion" so you probably couldn't tell

Kempo

Dont play Garp out of this ridiculous strength and powers are somethi common among the D.'s.