Robin and Franky act all outraged because Spandam orders the Straw Hats captured/killed just because she made a deal ensuring their safety on Water 7.
How exactly is that reasonable? They're attacking the World Government's HQ! Whatever deal Robin made with CP9 flew out the window the second Luffy flew over the fence.
Spandam does a lot of terrible things, but that isn't one of them.
Teach me your ways of utter notice.
-Spandam is a good guy. Luffy is the "anti-hero". From the story's point of view, Luffy is the hero. But he is really not.
-Buuhan your avatar is very distracting.
@Lobster:
Spandam is a good guy. Luffy is the "anti-hero". From the story's point of view, Luffy is the hero. But he is really not.
WRONG.
Just because it is a government doesn't make it good. Just because he's a pirate doesn't make him bad. CP9 were, from any viewpoint, the antagonists.
@Lobster:
-Buuhan… your avatar is very distracting.
You like insulting yourself without you realizing it, don't you?
They were. From Luffy's point of view. The government may be corrupt, but they set the standards. Luffy is going against that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti_hero
^See.
Luffy is an anti-hero and
Spandam is an anti-villian
You like insulting yourself without you realizing it, don't you?
I would normally say yes.
However, I don't realize the situation. So probably not.
I doubt Luffy would see himself as a bad guy. The World Government is a corrupt, evil establishment. "Absolute" and "Dark" justice isn't what I would want to live under.
Don't worry, I didn't get it either. Honestly, it made no sense to me.
I doubt Luffy would see himself as a bad guy
That's the point…
_Wiki quote:
All anti-heroes are flawed in some way, either because they have bad purposes and good methods, or bad methods and good purposes. An anti-villain is an antagonist who engages in the opposite of whatever the anti-hero does in a given story. For example, the anti-hero V in V for Vendetta practices murder and terrorism to bring down a dictatorship, while the oppressive prime minister fights against him_ V from Vendetta is a terrorist. However he's fighting against a government that is "evil" in his opinion. However, he's still a terrorist. Just like Luffy. Infact, Luffy is more of a terrorist then a pirate. He just attacks world government sanctions, but doesn't plunder any townsfolk. Yep. Luffy is indeed the anti-hero, and the man who devides by zero.
@Lobster:
That's the point…
Wiki quote: V from Vendetta is a terrorist. However he's fighting against a government that is "evil" in his opinion. However, he's still a terrorist. Just like Luffy. Infact, Luffy is more of a terrorist then a pirate. He just attacks world government sanctions, but doesn't plunder any townsfolk. Yep. Luffy is indeed the anti-hero, and the man who devides by zero.
Luffy is not an anti-hero. Both his purposes and his methods are good. He does not do things that he knows are wrong, which is contrary to the anti-hero ideal of doing things you know are wrong for the greater good.
Aside from the fact that the World Government is seemingly an inherently corrupt organization, Luffy is not part of it at all. He is not a citizen. They hold no jurisdiction over him. He is not bound by their standards.
The World Government does him no service and he owes them nothing in return.
Luffy is not an anti-hero. Both his purposes and his methods are good. He does not do things that he knows are wrong, which is contrary to the anti-hero ideal of doing things you know are wrong for the greater good.
Um… he beats the heck out of Marine soldiers. He knows it's not nice. Yet he's doing it for the greater good. To save Robin, or whatever...
Face it. He's trying to be a PIRATE. Why do you think he "stole" the gold from Sky Piea? He was trying to be bad. Trying to be a pirate. (even though he failed at it, because the gold was free anyway)
Aside from the fact that the World Government is seemingly an inherently corrupt organization, Luffy is not part of it at all. He is not a citizen. They hold no jurisdiction over him. He is not bound by their standards.
Umm… just like terrorists going into another country they aren't citizens of and causing havock?
Robin and Franky act all outraged because Spandam orders the Straw Hats captured/killed just because she made a deal ensuring their safety on Water 7.
How exactly is that reasonable? They're attacking the World Government's HQ! Whatever deal Robin made with CP9 flew out the window the second Luffy flew over the fence.
Spandam does a lot of terrible things, but that isn't one of them.
Uh, she made the deal that the Strawhats would be safe in Water 7 if she chose to go with the government. The deal was broken the moment they left Water 7 to save her.
@Really:
Uh, she made the deal that the Strawhats would be safe in Water 7 if she chose to go with the government. The deal was broken the moment they left Water 7 to save her.
No wai! Really!
If you read my post, my question was why Robin and Franky act like it's such a despicable action to not honor the agreement above and beyond the original terms.
becuz teh world gov. are asses.
Robin and Franky act all outraged because Spandam orders the Straw Hats captured/killed just because she made a deal ensuring their safety on Water 7.
How exactly is that reasonable? They're attacking the World Government's HQ! Whatever deal Robin made with CP9 flew out the window the second Luffy flew over the fence.
Spandam does a lot of terrible things, but that isn't one of them.
Yea, I have to agree with that…
If I ever meet Oda one day I'll ask him about this.
Blog last updated 01/31/2013:
[http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/
Nintendo Network ID: firekrouch](http://samueleihnorn.blogspot.com/)
Hmm.. I'd say Robin was just desperate, seeing as the one thing she wanted from the whole "work with us" deal was thrown out the window. Doesn't change that it was the strawhat's fault, though. I guess Franky was just caught up in the moment.
saying luffy is an anti-hero is the same as saying luke skywalker is an anti-hero. they both help people the both fight for what is right and look after their nakama, and are attacked by large and evil armies.
zoro is the closest to an anti hero cause he said that he wants to be the best even if it means becoming an infamous pirate.
an anti hero is someone like alex from a clockwork orange, where the protagonist does lots of fucked up shit that conflicts with the morals and ideals of the viewer and the society they live in.
luffy is a good old fashioned archetypal hero
just cause he's fighting a government doesn't mean he's an anti hero, look at all the heroes from mythology to pop culture and pretty much all of them are fighting against people (or armies) in positions of power.
saying luffy is an anti-hero is the same as saying luke skywalker is an anti-hero. they both help people the both fight for what is right and look after their nakama, and are attacked by large and evil armies.
I agree with you 100%
@Sogeking:
I doubt Luffy would see himself as a bad guy. The World Government is a corrupt, evil establishment. "Absolute" and "Dark" justice isn't what I would want to live under.
But Luffy admits himself as a villain in conversation with Aokiji.
"By the Hoary Hosts of Hoggoth!"
saying luffy is an anti-hero is the same as saying luke skywalker is an anti-hero. they both help people the both fight for what is right and look after their nakama, and are attacked by large and evil armies.
The "armies" aren't evil in OP's case, just the people who command them.
The "armies" aren't evil in OP's case, just the people who command them.
Anybody else find it strange that pretty much everybody in the Marines between the ranks of vice admiral and grunt are unquestionably corrupt?
Anybody else find it strange that pretty much everybody in the Marines between the ranks of vice admiral and grunt are unquestionably corrupt?
Not Smoker, Tashigi, Aokij, Garp, Sengekuu the Buddah, and the 5 Elder Stars…
@Lobster:
Not Smoker, Tashigi, Aokij, Garp, Sengekuu the Buddah, and the 5 Elder Stars…
You are right about Smoker and the others, but Sengoku and the Elders are actually corrupted. It was the Elders who ordered the Buster Call that destroyed Robin's home, for instance.
As for CP9 and most of the Marine officers, they are just doing their job.
spandam was using his position of power for his own ends ie: corrupt
and the rest of em were just using the job to satisfy their taste for blood ie: pretty much corrupt.
conclusion CP9 = corrupt
and the lower marine superiors are generally portrayed as being corrupt, eg: morgan ordering little girls to be executed and fullbody using his position to intimidate, maybe not quite corrupt as it were but the marines are portrayed through out the story as being a pack thugs pretty much, except the odd few like smoker who is infamous for going against the standard procedures thus becoming rarely honourable for a marine captain. i like it how it's not just black 'n' white with the marines though, they are a truly evil dictatorship that's badly organised and allows tyrants to thrive (like morgan) but then there are people like saulo and coby that have the very best intentions. but just look at what happened to saulo
How are the CP9 corrupt? They are just doing their job. And their job is to capture dangeous people terrorizing the government. Plus, they were just defending Enis Lobby. Luffy came to them and attacked them.
If anyone is evil, it's Enel.
and the rest of em were just using the job to satisfy their taste for blood ie: pretty much corrupt.
conclusion CP9 = corrupt
I disagree. Lucci could be a bloodluster, but how about Kumadori, or Blueno, or Kaku? Jyabura and Kalifa were the kind who liked to play with their victims, but they didn't seem to do that for "taste of blood and death".
yeah, tht's true, at least they don't enjoy killing to the point where they are corrupt, killing for fun like lucci did in the flashback.
spandam is most definitely corrupt as he is only working for the world government for his own ends using CP9's fighting power and the buster call try to get a weapon that will allow him to rule the world.
and enis lobby is corrupt to start with, nobody gets a fair trial there and it's guarded by giant pirates under a false contract and the juries are all ex crims.
The World Government is led by the Gorosei. They ordered the destruction of Ohara, but seemed genuinely upset about having to do so. While undoubtedly a bad thing to do, they appear to have been working towards a greater good. Whatever happened during the void century, they're walking a fine line between Dark Justice and Moral Justice to keep it a secret.
The World Government controls three powers. The Marines, Shichibukai and Cipher Pol.
So far Shichibukai have proven to be pretty villainous. The exception so far being Mihawk.
The Marines appear to be a mixed bag of corruption and honor. At the top of the food chain we have Sengoku. Don't know much about him personally but we do know that in his front yard he has Enis Lobby, which sports a laughable excuse of a courthouse and has no problems with manipulating giants with lies. He's also the guy who gave the obviously incompetent Spandine a Golden Den Den Mushi.
Below him are the three Admarials. Ao Kiji seems to be a genuinely good person. On the other hand he gave the even more obviously incompetent Spandam a Golden Den Den Mushi.
The other of the three Admarials we've seen is Akainu, who order the destruction of the civilian ship escaping Ohara… just incase. Somehow murdering a ship full of people who's homes you've already unjustly destroyed seemes a bit excessive.
Of the Vice-Admirals there's Monkey D. Garp, who's obviously a cool guy and clearly doesn't belong in the rank of Vice-Admiral. Jaguar D. Saulo was a Vice-Admiral too.
On the flip side, it takes six Vice-Admirals to perform a Buster Call, so there are at least a dozen of them that are comfortable with blindly bombarding a target into nothingness without knowing the reason. We saw that one of the Vice-Admirals during Enis Lobby killed dozens of Marines to keep the Straw Hats from escaping and personally executed one of his own crewmen.
Down to Captains we've got guys like Smoker, who have to deal with craploads of red-tape to do their jobs, and guys like Morgan, who make statues of themselves and kill little girls.
Out of Cipher Pol, Spandam is clearly evil. He's a self serving, woman beating, ego-maniac with no regard for any human life other than his own. Under his orders, CP5 attacked a Judicial Ship using Franky's ships. That's all sorts of criminal there. Judging between his behavior between then and his time commanding CP9, odds are good that illegal/immoral activities that serve nobody but himself were common place.
As for the other members of CP9, Lucci and Jyabura were clearly evil. Both self-acknowledged sadists. The only member of CP9 who seemed to be a genuinely good person, in spite of his profession, was Kaku.
@Sogeking:
WRONG.
Just because it is a government doesn't make it good. Just because he's a pirate doesn't make him bad. CP9 were, from any viewpoint, the antagonists.
From my point of view, in the end not all CP9 members were atagonists (Kaku).
From my point of view, in the end not all CP9 members were atagonists (Kaku).
an·tag·o·nist
Kaku fits both descriptions.
Well, the World Government is almost like an Galatic Empire of Star Wars. One can say the GE is evil but if you look at everyday life, people seems to be happy and peacful with the Empire over their heads like people in One Piece are happy while the WG are over their heads. The WG of One Piece may be evil in many areas but it's not Black and White. Spandam and Spandine took the Government ranks to seriously and loves to abuse their powers and would shield themselves behind the WG, claiming to be good guys.
Just because an person is a WG agents does not make them good guys, if the agents thinks their guys are really taking the Government way too seriously. The 5 Edger Stars are courrpted, same goes to Sangoku, Morgan, the Buster Call, and Nezumi. I have seen the misdreeds of the WG but there are people in the WG that are digused with the policy such as Aokiji, Smoker, Garp and Saul.
So since the GE is not that evil but they did something really bad to spruce up the Rebellion so Luke is not an anti-hero just because he is an rebel, he saved many lives. An ant-hero would ignore them. Luffy is not an anti-hero just because he's a pirate, he saved many lives like Luke did. The WG ignored the problems in Morgan's base, they don't care about Drum whose stuffering under Wapol, nor do they care about the rebellion in Arabasta, they don't care if Lucci killed 500 guards(normally a person should be punished for that, Lucci was ranked instend) so if anyone who is an anti-hero is gonna be the Gorousei, Akainu, the CP9, Spandian and Spandam, Morgan and Nezumi.
But Luffy admits himself as a villain in conversation with Aokiji.
I loved that part,
"Oh wait, normally we're the bad guys!"
@joekido:
so if anyone who is an anti-hero is gonna be the Gorousei, Akainu, the CP9, Spandian and Spandam, Morgan and Nezumi.
not really, they're just straight up villains, an anti hero when the protagonist does all the bad stuff
You are right about Smoker and the others, but Sengoku and the Elders are actually corrupted. It was the Elders who ordered the Buster Call that destroyed Robin's home, for instance.
The Elders had a reason for destroying Robin's home: they didn't want those weapons to be made and fuck up people…I'm not sure how that's corrupt...Maybe misguided and somewhat crazy, but not corrupt. Sengoku COULD be the same way, but we really don't know anything about his intentions yet.
Brawl FC: 1848-1356-2850 
Indeed. What is this crap saying that Sengoku is corrupt when we have no proof for either side?
And when this manga closes out, and Luffy's arm stretches back to deliver that last punch, I wanna feel the crunch of the dream coming true.
The Elders had a reason for destroying Robin's home: they didn't want those weapons to be made and fuck up people…I'm not sure how that's corrupt...Maybe misguided and somewhat crazy, but not corrupt. Sengoku COULD be the same way, but we really don't know anything about his intentions yet.
no they destroyed robins island because they knew too much
Hmm.. I'd say Robin was just desperate, seeing as the one thing she wanted from the whole "work with us" deal was thrown out the window. Doesn't change that it was the strawhat's fault, though. I guess Franky was just caught up in the moment.
I agree. It's understandable that their pact to keep the Strawhats safe was now null and void mostly due to the persistence of the Strawhats to save her than anything. Robin was just clinging on the vain hope than Spandam would keep his work at this point.
The Elders had a reason for destroying Robin's home: they didn't want those weapons to be made and fuck up people…I'm not sure how that's corrupt...Maybe misguided and somewhat crazy, but not corrupt. Sengoku COULD be the same way, but we really don't know anything about his intentions yet.
The Elders knew Ohara wasn't trying to revive the ancient weapons. That was never more than an excuse to justify to the rest of the world their destruction. They aren't afraid of the ancient weapons. They're afraid of something about the origins/intentions of World Government being exposed. The information contained on the poneglyphs are much more dangerous to the World Government than any weapon.
They wiped out everybody on Ohara, researcher or not, as part of an 800 year cover-up.
@dirtmonkeyAL:
Indeed. What is this crap saying that Sengoku is corrupt when we have no proof for either side?
He gave a Golden Den Den Mushi to Spandine. He's either evil, apathetic, or really !@#$ing stupid.
I could go for really !@#$ing stupid.
And I could agree with that, seeing as most of the "underlings" (ie. Spandam & Spandine) wanted to control this weapon of sorts rather than stow it away, the WG would probably feel the same as them rather than being afraid of it.
It would make sense if the Poneglyphs proved something about their origins and intentions, but is that what it really says on the stones? Robin said something about the whole Void thing, which I kind of forgot about, but that's what they're trying to cover up, right?
You mean putting a bounty out for an eight year old girl who no longer had a home or family by claiming she destroyed a bunch of Navy ships just to have her captured so she could be killed is for the better of mankind and not being absolutely corrupt with power to attempt keeping the last person from Ohara alive from ever telling anyone the truth of what happened?
I dunno about you, but the moment Robin's bounty went up for a crime she didn't commit (which they lied about to make the whole world go after her to turn her in), that's the moment I realized the government isn't as good as some people made them out to be.
Let's look at Arlong Park. Nezumi was in cahoots with Arlong, accepting bribes to turn a blind eye in his direction and what not. He was fully aware that the treasure Nami had obtained through her ventures over the years were for the sake of Cocoyashi Village, who was suffering greatly while under Arlong's tyrany. Him taking the money because it was "stolen property" was merely an excuse, even if it was indeed true. In the end, he put out a bounty on Luffy because he got the crap knocked out of him for trying to take the treasure, arrest the Straw Hats and take advantage of Arlong being defeated.
Just because the Straw Hats are seen as villains in the eyes of the Government because of what title they've taken on doesn't mean that they ARE villains. Just like how the World Government should not be seen as heroes just because they hold the title that should be a symbol of true justice. Some pirates are bad. The Straw Hats clearly aren't. Some people in the World Government are good. A lot aren't.
I'd say Carue was a Lucky Ducky | YouTube Page
nuff said
luffy and the rest of the strawhats are not anti-heroes
nuff said
luffy and the rest of the strawhats are not anti-heroes
Nope… sorry, please try again~
Luffy is trying to be a pirate. Even though he doesn't pillage towns, he still beats up govenment officers on a regular basis, which is a federal offence.
@Lobster:
Nope… sorry, please try again~
Luffy is trying to be a pirate. Even though he doesn't pillage towns, he still beats up govenment officers on a regular basis, which is a federal offence.
So does Spider-Man. What's your point?
"Criminal" does not mean "Villain" any more than "Law Abiding" means "Hero".
So does Spider-Man. What's your point?
-Spiderman doesn't beat up poliece men
-That Luffy is an anti-hero
"Criminal" does not mean "Villain" any more than "Law Abiding" means "Hero".
What's your point?
I didn't say Luffy was a villian. I said he was an anti-hero.
Luffy's merely taken on the title of "pirate." He doesn't act like one except go against officials that stand in his way.
As I said, the World Government itself isn't all good just because they preach on about justice and what not. The Straw Hats are good people, with the only laws that have been broken involved taking on the titles as pirates, taking down Shichibukai members, storming Enies Lobby and burning the World Government's flag.
Crocodile needed to be taken out, as well as Baroque Works. Otherwise Alabasta would have been utterly destroyed. Crocodile, even though being an approved pirate by the World Government, was in enough trouble the moment he took in the HIGHGLY wanted Nico Robin, formed an underground criminal agency, started a war in Alabasta, kidnapped the King and attempted to wipe out the people of Alabasta.
The Straw Hats stormed Enies Lobby to retrieve their crewmate when they shouldn't have been there. Robin was being accused to the entire world of a crime she didn't commit merely for the sake of her capture and eventual murder simply because she was from Ohara, knew about the Poneglyphs and could read them, even when the World Government knew the people of Ohara merely wanted to read them for the sake of learning history. The Straw Hats were merely going against these corrupt people for not only taking their precious crewmate, but for making her life hell and trying to kill her.
And then we have the declaration of war on the World Government. War was declared against a government that would put a bounty on a child just to cover their own asses and be sure to remove every single last person that lived on Ohara from the entire earth. Spandam constantly reminded us that his intentions for getting Robin were to receive a promotion for capturing the "devil woman" and to make sure she absolutely suffers does the world a "favor" by killing her by bringing her to the point of no return. War was declared on the entire world because of people as corrupt as Spandam.
Luffy isn't exactly an "anti-hero" as he only fights government officials when they're absolutely known to be corrupt, endanger the lives of his crewmates or when being cornered. In that last case, it usually involves him and the crew fleeing. Spider-Man isn't an anti-hero as the only "crime" he seems to be doing is taking the law into his own hands by taking out villains that the cops couldn't or wouldn't take care of, or the small time crooks that take the police forever to handle. In the case of Spider-Man and Luffy, they're frowned upon by the law simply because they do not share the same titles as them and in the end make them look bad.
I'd say Carue was a Lucky Ducky | YouTube Page
@Lobster:
Nope… sorry, please try again~
what's the point, it's obvious there's nothing anyone can say to make you take back your claim that luffy is an anti-hero. but of course you are entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be 
( joke alert…. emphasis on the smiley).
@Lobster:
-Spiderman doesn't beat up poliece men
That's exactly what he's been doing for the last several months.
-That Luffy is an anti-hero
No. He isn't.
an·ti·he·ro
A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.
You're wrong. Get over it.
what's the point, it's obvious there's nothing anyone can say to make you take back your claim that luffy is an anti-hero. but of course you are entitled to your opinion, however wrong it may be
No. He isn't.
an·ti·he·ro
A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.You're wrong. Get over it.
that might do it actually
incidentally i got round to reading the wiki article that was used as to support the claim. the stuff he's referring to comes from a paragraph with "This section may contain original research or unverified claims" written above it.
the paragraph does make sense though, it talks about V being an anti-hero
and how he's a terrorist but that's not the only thing that makes V an anti-hero, things like locking your friend in a cell for weeks on end, playing mind games with them and making them think they're gonna die to prove a point makes him an anti-hero. Luffy would never do that to one of his nakama, and he'd beat the shit out of anyone that did whether they are in power or not.
Lobster, i bet they'd be a lot of people that would get really pissed off at you if you said the poeple hiding their loved ones from the nazi gas chambers were antiheroes for going against the government that "set the standards"
heroism isn't about THE LAW it's about morality, and often the two don't overlap as neatly as they should, both in fiction as well as reality.
