Chapter 452: "Jigoro of the Wind" Discussion

agmaster

That's still deeper than most other manga where the only way to beat someone stronger than you is to train real hard to get your power level up to 1.5 x 10^13 so that you can beat his power level at 1.3 x 10^13. Oh and you only have a month so you better start working cause you're only at 5.2 x 10^7. Or other manga where you just need to unleash the demon of your black dragon attack which is guaranteed to be more powerful than the bad guy's dark star whirlpool attack.

Most? Really? Besides DBZ and Ippo, start listing things where only power applies.

boiga

Actually, I had forgotten that peter pan reference dinty, but wow is it a good one. Good call.

@Leaf cable: Wow… an on topic post, how unexpected.

Now that things have hit bottom, I really do expect Brooke to show up and explain some as of yet unknown weakness to the zombie horde.

Are the zombie really willing servants to Moria? Or are they just working out of fear? I mean, the disco dancing zombies look happy... but others like Ryuma Captain John seem less enthusiastic about their predicament.

Brooke has to have a plan about how to get his own shadow back. He has after all had decades to think about it. Maybe he can convince some of the other shadowless to revolt or could he even convince John and Ryuma to mutiny and finally obtain eternal rest?

Most importantly, the strawhats have to find out who they are fighting and why. To this end they have been just flippantly exploring the island for no reason other than a sense of adventure. Sure, luffy wants to return the shadows to the old man and brooke, but generally he needs a more personal justification for battle in order to really bring out his strength.

He also reallllly needs to get out of that suit of armor.

*Meh*

Nah, the armor will create a reflective surface to either (a.) prevent Lufy from having his shadow stolen, or (b.) reflect Moria's power and leave the big galoot in the same boat as Brooke and the others.

dinty

@_Meh_:

Nah, the armor will create a reflective surface to either (a.) prevent Lufy from having his shadow stolen, or (b.) reflect Moria's power and leave the big galoot in the same boat as Brooke and the others.

Sweet!

Sounds good to me, Meh!

Aeque

@boiga:

Brooke has to have a plan about how to get his own shadow back. He has after all had decades to think about it. Maybe he can convince some of the other shadowless to revolt or could he even convince John and Ryuma to mutiny and finally obtain eternal rest?

Or get the lesser zombies dancing to distract the generals…

dinty

This post is deleted!

Taleran

@boiga:

That's still deeper than most other manga where the only way to beat someone stronger than you is to train real hard to get your power level up to 1.5 x 10^13 so that you can beat his power level at 1.3 x 10^13. Oh and you only have a month so you better start working cause you're only at 5.2 x 10^7. Or other manga where you just need to unleash the demon of your black dragon attack which is guaranteed to be more powerful than the bad guy's dark star whirlpool attack.

Oda uses scientific facts in interesting ways to help in character design. What's so bad about that? Sure he takes them to an unrealistic extreme, but a large number of the characters powers and abilities are based off of valid real world physics.

theres nothing wrong with that, lots of manga writers use it, just not Oda.

komikero008

i think most abilities are just based on common sense and real life experiences, with a little twist of course.
one doesn't need to know F=ma, to know the impact of speeding ten-wheeler.

as for measure of power, of course it would really help to use science for back up, as many mangaka had done, not just oda.

daniz

@boiga: windows theory is cool, better than the kage kage no mi, but there are so many things that do not fix. If I did understand right, windows prevent the body to be hit by the light rays right? So how is the body visible to other people then? I see you know physic, so if the body do not reflect light rays it is not visible. Moreover, you use light as energy. That's right, but you need to consider that actually there is no sun light in Triller Bark, so really the zombies would have no energy at all.

I still am unsure what Moria's power is about, but a good question that need to be answered is: why people burn once they lost the shadows? That freaks me out.

VL7

@boiga:

Are the zombie really willing servants to Moria? Or are they just working out of fear? I mean, the disco dancing zombies look happy… but others like Ryuma Captain John seem less enthusiastic about their predicament.

Brooke has to have a plan about how to get his own shadow back. He has after all had decades to think about it. Maybe he can convince some of the other shadowless to revolt or could he even convince John and Ryuma to mutiny and finally obtain eternal rest?

Can we be sure the zombies have "free will"? I mean, whats keeping Ryuma, John and the other uber zombies from simply kicking Moria's butt and getting the heck out of there. I doubt its fear, they are all warriors after all.

Though the Sanji penguin does seem to have free will to an extent, but why do the zombies follow orders in the first place.

Impel Down

What's keeping them? Maybe it's the fact that Moria is a fucking giant and he could murder them with one blow.

Lieju

@komikero008:

i think most abilities are just based on common sense and real life experiences, with a little twist of course.

Exactly. And physics explain how things in real life work.
I think the window thery is more common-sense then the Kage-theory. Maybe that's just me, then.
And while I like Boiga's theory, I think the real explanation will be less complicated. Maybe it will be somekind of mixture of these two theories. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

@komikero008:

one doesn't need to know F=ma, to know the impact of speeding ten-wheeler.

No, you don't need to know it, but the explanation exists.

EDIT:

@daniz:

@boiga: windows theory is cool, better than the kage kage no mi, but there are so many things that do not fix. If I did understand right, windows prevent the body to be hit by the light rays right? So how is the body visible to other people then? I see you know physic, so if the body do not reflect light rays it is not visible. Moreover, you use light as energy. That's right, but you need to consider that actually there is no sun light in Triller Bark, so really the zombies would have no energy at all.

There must be some light in Thriller Bark, or the characters would not be able to see at all. Eye needs the light to see.
Maybe the windows effect only some kind of light. This is the part of the theory I find weird too. I guess it could be part of Moria's ability to choose what kind of light his "windows" will let through.

VL7

@Impel:

What's keeping them? Maybe it's the fact that Moria is a fucking giant and he could murder them with one blow.

Technically their immortal and the general zombies aren't really what you'd call low tier fighters. Based on their numbers there are 800+ zombies. Giant or no giant, Moria needs some kind of guarantee that keeps the zombies from starting a rebellion. Ryuma doesn't seem like someone who'd want to stay enslaved just to stay alive, so something needs to keep him there.

Lieju

Maybe the zombies are afraid that Moria could just easily take the shadows away, and they would die.

Did we see the four-armed zombie in this chapter, by the way? I am not certain, but I think we didn't…

Gorlom

@VL7:

Technically their immortal and the general zombies aren't really what you'd call low tier fighters. Based on their numbers there are 800+ zombies. Giant or no giant, Moria needs some kind of guarantee that keeps the zombies from starting a rebellion. Ryuma doesn't seem like someone who'd want to stay enslaved just to stay alive, so something needs to keep him there.

think his guarantee is his power. if he reanimated the zombies im sure his power can be used to take back the life he gave. Probably a lot easier to kill a zombie for moria then it is to reanimate one.

Gamabounta

@boiga:

Sure, luffy wants to return the shadows to the old man and brooke, but generally he needs a more personal justification for battle in order to really bring out his strength.

He also reallllly needs to get out of that suit of armor.

Well, he wants to have a afro-skeleton-musician in his crew and the only way to get Brooke is to get Brooke's shadow back. It's worth at least the same that Arlong making Nami cry.

And I like your theory btw.

Lieju

I wonder if in the anime they will give the zombies same voice actors then the characters whose shadows they have? I think at least Ryuma and Brook will have the same voice, and I believe this will be true for others too. Didn't Luffy first think Jigorou was Zoro? It would be weird to hear that zombie talking with Zoro's voice.

AWB

Sanji's voice sounds oddly perfect coming out of the dog penguin.

And thanks to those who helped with the zombie list. But could someone tell me what the name of the Frankenstein creature was?

VL7

@Lieju:

Did we see the four-armed zombie in this chapter, by the way? I am not certain, but I think we didn't…

He wasn't there, which is kinnda weird since John, the big buffed up hippo guy and the long neck guy where there. Thats why I think John was the leader of the zombies that attacked them. I think he is also the only one who isn't seen in the fighting scenes.
I think the four armed guy is something of a loner, and therefore isn't seen with the other zombies. Isn't he also the only zombie we've seen until now that uses guns instead of meele weapons? Maybe he is a leader of his very own marksman group.

Den Den

Can we be sure the zombies have "free will"? I mean, whats keeping Ryuma, John and the other uber zombies from simply kicking Moria's butt and getting the heck out of there. I doubt its fear, they are all warriors after all.

Though the Sanji penguin does seem to have free will to an extent, but why do the zombies follow orders in the first place.

assuming that "the song" or what's his name is zoro for real, then it is possible that moria can somehow erase the memories or dreams or ambitions of his zombies and replace them with some other memory. the characteristics and fighting abilities wouldn't change but the zombies woudn't know what keeps them there. and they follow the orderes or don't because they have free will in the end. this theory goes for the general zombies, the ones in that hall with that oink oink seem to fear moria.

Lieju

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Lieju

The four-armed zombie looks cool. I hope we will see him again.
Who is John?

There appears to be two kinds of zombies. Those that are dead humans brought back to life, and those that are made of different animals.
General zombies were people once, and they seem to have more memories then for example the Peguin-zombie-Sanji. Or maybe the memories it has are those of a dog, since it bropably has it's brain?

Gorlom

@Pass:

Sanji's voice sounds oddly perfect coming out of the dog penguin.

And thanks to those who helped with the zombie list. But could someone tell me what the name of the Frankenstein creature was?

Afaik, No we cant sorry. Hogback said that the "Mario" or "marionette" as in puppet was soon complete. As he is number 741 he isnt a ZG and could possibly not have a name. (his number would be his name then)

Think we call him mario at the moment

Gorlom

@Lieju:

The four-armed zombie looks cool. I hope we will see him again.
Who is John?

An alchoholic marine that looks like doctorine. hes called sluggish captain john when absolom raises the ZGs. he is also standing in the arena like hall.

Den Den the current theory is that zombies are reanimated by the victimes shadows. meaning sanji and zoro are not turned into zombies, only their shadows are.

Lieju

Ah, now I remember, who he is.
I like his character design too. The four armed zombie, John, And Tararan are my favourite zombies.

And of course Lola. She and Absalom make the cutest couple.

skarlath

@Taleran:

Its in your Heart!

YES! Absoultey correct, everything is in your heart, magic or islands.

But here is the question: is you heart in your shadow? or is your shadow in your heart?

That might matter

Den Den

Den Den the current theory is that zombies are reanimated by the victimes shadows. meaning sanji and zoro are not turned into zombies, only their shadows are.

ah, that sounds good(obviously i didn't go through the whole thread XD), it'd make more sense. still, something has to happen with their memories, too. don't tell me shadows don't have memories and wills.

Gorlom

@Den:

don't tell me shadows don't have memories and wills.

well if we look at zomji it is obvious that the shadows dont have any memories, if that is because or moria or not will be remained unsaid. but the zomji still seems to retain the original will of Sanji as he "wont kick a girl even if he dies, shitty zombies".

however i dont think Moria can do anything about the memory of the original bodies as brook and the old man in the forrest (2 people we know has lost their shadows) still seems to have their memories.

Impel Down

it's not memories, just morals and personality.

Afro D Luffy

Everyone get thier shadow stolen and place on a zombie, then Luffy zombie rember his dream about becoming pirate king, thus allowing the rest of straw hat zombies to remeber thier dreams. Then we get a big ole zombie VS zombie going on for about 3 chapters, then Moria rears his head.

VL7

I just noticed something. If the zombies need shadows to survive taking their shadows away would kill them. People rarely die in OP and here we have 800+ zombies that would techinically all have to die in real time if the SH beat Moria and force him to return all the shadows.

Monkey Spirit

Maybe they don't need shadows to survive, and just need them to be able to fight decently instead.

I still want Hogback and not Moria to be the one who's reviving the zombies. If he quit his medical career to study reanimation, it shouldn't rely solely on a DF power.

Gorlom

@VL7:

I just noticed something. If the zombies need shadows to survive taking their shadows away would kill them. People rarely die in OP and here we have 800+ zombies that would techinically all have to die in real time if the SH beat Moria and force him to return all the shadows.

you cant kill the undead! it would be more like… unkilling them.

It wouldn't be Oda's style, letting the arc end with an 800-Zombie-Monster-Kill …

That's what I think.

But we have to consider another thing:
I feel that most of the zombies are not willing to stay in their present "zombie-state" since they were forced into it.
Let's see it like this: We don't actually know what the OP afterlife looks like, but I'd say that it is for most people some sort of pardise.

Well, keeping that in mind many zombies may be very unconfident with their new given life, especially the strawhat-doubles.

On the other hand there are lots zs who seem to be very happy (the mice, zombie army (I'm not that sure abouth them), most of the animals)...

VL7

@2cool2live:

It wouldn't be Oda's style, letting the arc end with an 800-Zombie-Monster-Kill …

That's what I think.

But we have to consider another thing:
I feel that most of the zombies are not willing to stay in their present "zombie-state" since they were forced into it.
Let's see it like this: We don't actually know what the OP afterlife looks like, but I'd say that it is for most people some sort of pardise.

Well, keeping that in mind many zombies may be very unconfident with their new given life, especially the strawhat-doubles.

On the other hand there are lots zs who seem to be very happy (the mice, zombie army (I'm not that sure abouth them), most of the animals)...

No one knows what afterlife looks like in the OP world, especially not the people who live in the world. OP hasn't really touched the subject, most we got is Brook's soul and the fact that dead people can be reanimated.
That said, we got no idea if the zombies really are the same person with the same soul as before. Zombies might be more like clones.

Anyway, I doubt any of the zombies knows what awaits them if they die. Heck, I doubt they even know they can die(considering they are able to)

Impel Down

They probably "die" by getting their shadows taken out of them and put back into the original body. Then the zombies are just bodies.

ITSALION

Exactly. Once the shadows are returned, I believe that all the zombies will turn back into corpses.
The real mystery now is, what the hell is Perona? Some kind of Ghost devil fruit, or… something else?

Impel Down

She doesn't have stitches, so he isn't a zombie. She could just be a necromancer or something.

ITSALION

Absalom has stitches, but last chapter he said he was human.

Lieju

Perona might wear make-up or something to cover her stiches. However, I believe she is human, like Absalom.

ITSALION

It would be interesting if there was a Rei Rei (Ghost Ghost) no Mi. I firmly believe that Absalom has the Mei Mei no Mi (meimei means dark/invisible/divine).

Impel Down

I don't see why zombisim can't just give you powers. Or maybe Absalom got the shadow of an invisable guy.

ITSALION

Absalom isn't a zombie, so he probably doesn't need a stolen shadow. But his invisibility could have something to do with Moria's strange ability.

Impel Down

Well, with the theories that Moria uses "reflections of light", that could be used to make Absalom invisable.

Nobodyman

@Impel:

I don't see why zombisim can't just give you powers. Or maybe Absalom got the shadow of an invisable guy.

Well, why should it? I mean they're already immortal, isn't that enough. And one of them has 4 arms.

King-Of-Fools

@Impel:

Well, with the theories that Moria uses "reflections of light", that could be used to make Absalom invisable.

If Moria has the power to turn Absalom invisible I don't see why he didn't do it to the Zombies or at least the generals.
I think its safe to say Absalom has the power separate of Moria.

SuperStar

Well now, not much progression. Chapter seemed average at best, I really don't like the wacky characters being thrown out of nowhere. I am not crazy about the armored warriors either.

Damn, I thought the night strike was suppose to begin…......

Lieju

@King-Of-Fools:

If Moria has the power to turn Absalom invisible I don't see why he didn't do it to the Zombies or at least the generals.
I think its safe to say Absalom has the power separate of Moria.

Or maybe he is a quinea pig, where Hogback has tested if Moria's power could be used like that. And he is apparently different from zombies, being alive and all.
It appears, that he was a normal human, who has been upgraded. Hogback might have made some other experiments with him too.
For some reason I think Absalom's power is not a DF…
Propably because Moria apparently has a DF power, so having two DF's that are kinda similar would be boring...

Pants-eater

It wouldn't be Oda's style, letting the arc end with an 800-Zombie-Monster-Kill …

I personally think the arc should end with an 800-Zombie-Monster-Kill, slain by the crew wearing mirrorball suits.

Angel emfrbl

Judging by the coffins and Luffy's scream when they "got him" after his coffin disappeared… I'm wondering if shadow stealing causes a form fo death. The old man was a zombie... So he is already dead. So is Brook. A guy who survives a shadow stealing "death" is more of a threat. Presuming after loosing shadows your body fluff for the next zombie but can be brought back fi your still around. The old man had "7" on his head so he is early in the numbering and doesn't appear to follow Moria but live in fear. On top of the knowledge he calls himself and old man and not a zombie...

Hmmm... I lost where I was going... XD