Still no spoilers?! Wheres Kiavik and BF when you need em 
Chapter 449 - "The Mysterious Four of Thriller Bark"
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This post is deleted!
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@Rai:
One thing I always wanted in One Piece is that some DFs will have limitations and requirments they have to fill. For example, Flamingo being able to manipulate only 2 people, but can manipulate them for stuff that Oda can choose. Like that, Perona's ability is to produce ghosts, or only one ghost, that duplicates while dancing. And the difference between getting a positive one or negative one is simply luck. That adds a little color to the opponent too, I think it's better than having a ultimate power like the rest of the opponents so far.
Isn't this what Oda has done with every enemy ever? They always appear outrageously strong, nearly unstoppable, and then Luffy or someone else in the crew figures out their weakness and/or limitations. I don't think I need to list examples. I also don't think I've ever seen one DF user that didn't have a major limitation (except for maybe Lucci)–but let's not forget the vulnerability to the ocean, as well.
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Even Calipha and Mr3 had control over soap and wax as they could give it whatever shape they wanted. I don't see where this "only Logias can manipulate things out of their own bodies" thing comes from.
Sorry, I didn't explain my self very well. Logia's have the ability to control the action of their element from a distance in a manner that paramecia lack. They can create their element at a distance and freely control its movement. Paramecia only excrete things from their body or act on their environment by directly touching it.
Examples of logia controlling their element without touching it:
-Smoker's smoke changes direction and chases luffy around.
-Ace can create fireballs and control their movement
-aokiji can create ice under his bicycle without coming into direct contact with the water.
-enel can create the electrical storms from miles away precisely direct the aim of their lightning bolts.
-crocodile had complete control of the movement of sand, allowing him to create sandstorms, sand spears, etc. without ever directly touching it.Examples of paramecia NOT being able to control things at a distance:
-Mr. 5 has to throw part of his body at someone in order to blow them up. He can't simply make an explosion in someone's heart (without touching it).
-Mr. 3's wax is excreted from his body and can only be controlled until it hardens. He could not, for example, make a candle attack someone just because it was made of wax.
-Blueno makes doors out of things he touches and the doors last for a while. He could not make a door underneath someone's feet that leads to an ocean floor while standing 10 feet away. He even had to create blueno shaped doors in walls because he had to be in direct contact with every part of the door being created.
-calipha could excrete bubbles from her body and shoot them at people or rub them onto people. She could not use the bubbles in the bath tub or on the floor to attack nami from other directions.Conclusions:
Logia have complete control over their element and can make it obey their will without ever necessarily touching it.
Paramecia can only excrete things and shoot them at people, or touch things and alter them. Once an object is out of bodily contact with the paramecia user, there is no evidence of any paramecia user still having any direct control over that object.
So, if Perona's powers are indeed devil fruit driven (which seems likely), then she must be a logia type.
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I don't think Logias can control their element without touching it, I'm afraid there's nothing in the manga backing this up. All the examples you give aren't really conclusive, Smoker's smoke is still a part of his body, Aokiji must touch the sea to freeze it, Crocodile creates spears and other weapons out of the sand he produces from his body and when it comes to the sandstorm he has no control over it once separated from him, and when Enel uses Mamaragan we can see bolts of lightning surrounding him, it's not much of a stretch to think he uses these to channel his lightning into the thunder cloud and then release it on his targets. As for Ace's fireballs, I must have missed it, when was he shown controlling them?
The one thing that separates Logia from Paramecia is the ability they have to turn their bodies into their element at will. From what we've seen from Perona until now, it seems her material body is unanimated until the ghosts come back. It hints at her being able to separate her astral body from her material one, nothing sounding like a Logia at all nor a Zoan and falling in that "everything else" category that are Paramecias.
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I'm sure Blackbeard manipulates his body.
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Lots of people said so. I am not agree.
First of all this theory makes Moria's DF completey useless: I mean, steeling shadows and reuse them to animate stuff is not what you would expect from a schichibukai's DF. (you can poit out that this can be just a side of his power… agree).
Secondly, this theory has a inner contraddiction. Why should Moria use Dr Hodgback to have bodies made from dead body corpes? Moria can simply look for dead bodies and put shadows on them, so what's the deal in creating zombies?
Thirdly, this would made Dr. Hodgback compleatly useless. What? He studied for so many years becoming so famous and the only thing he came up with is just reassembling dead bodies for Moria? C'on.I think that Moria's DF has nothing to do with Dr. Hodgback's experiments.
Actually i said that Moria can animate stuff not just zombies. I think Dr.Hogback is just providing Moria with an army. Why an army you ask?
What does a shiki need with one?
Well he was sleeping for four days.Maybe he doesn't like to be disturbed.About Hodgback being useless i don't think so.
Perhaps he can animate bodies on his own but they lucked souls and that is what Moria provided.I really like the Oggy Buggy theory that he has the shadows in him.
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I don't think Logias can control their element without touching it, I'm afraid there's nothing in the manga backing this up. All the examples you give aren't really conclusive, Smoker's smoke is still a part of his body, Aokiji must touch the sea to freeze it, Crocodile creates spears and other weapons out of the sand he produces from his body and when it comes to the sandstorm he has no control over it once separated from him, and when Enel uses Mamaragan we can see bolts of lightning surrounding him, it's not much of a stretch to think he uses these to channel his lightning into the thunder cloud and then release it on his targets. As for Ace's fireballs, I must have missed it, when was he shown controlling them?
The one thing that separates Logia from Paramecia is the ability they have to turn their bodies into their element at will. From what we've seen from Perona until now, it seems her material body is unanimated until the ghosts come back. It hints at her being able to separate her astral body from her material one, nothing sounding like a Logia at all nor a Zoan and falling in that "everything else" category that are Paramecias.
I would argue that a logia's element is considered part of their body when considering the reach of their control over it.
For example, Enel can cause lightning to fall from the sky at large distances because of he can keep a current of electricity running between his body and the cloud that releases the lightning bolt. Thus, the entire sky can be considered part of his body in regards to his ability to send lightning from those directions. Aokiji, with his Ice Age attack can create an unlimited amount of Ice because the ice that he is touching creates more ice at a distance. Smoker as well can manipulate smoke as long as there is a line of contact between the smoke and his body.
This still differs from paramecia excreters whom can ONLY create something directly from their body, and then can not control it's movements from that point forward. Blackbeard is actually a prime example of what I'm talking about. He can control the movement of his darkness but can not transform. If controlling the movement of their element was not what made a logia a logia, blackbeard would just be an ordinary paramecia.
So, you were right that logia's do not have complete freedom in regards to the creation of the control of their element. However, they can use their element to control more of it at a distance than a paramecia user who only excretes their substance of choice. Oh, and I think I was accidentally working off of a filler anime example in regards to Ace's abilities. Compared to other Logia users, he really didn't have great control over his powers.
The difficulty with Perona is that we don't know the spiritual nature of Odaverse. How will devilfruits which have so far only effected the user's bodies effect someone having an out of body experience? I was overzealous earlier in declaring her a Logia. While she still could be an ectoplasm logia, there is also the possibility of her being a spirit paramecia whose ghosts are simply astral projections and have no physical basis. If she is paramecia, then her body was altered to be much better at having out of body experiences than would normally be possible.
@$abz: If you look closely, at the page before the example you give http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0UQAHD2wWfmRKBpmmSKl7T5hH4cGY7avaO9UhdmSz87RPybpW*1SWtbV1jmQtMpvbwlqH1AVYo4cl2PU1WPtWLR2iK!oyRQn05tIpiiX2iUzOFHzMOoBa3np1RVIVb7nQ/441 - 03.jpg?dc=4675606789524390010
You can see his hands and jewelry through the cloud of his darkness shroud. Blackbeard's body does not transform, he simply covers his hands, feet, jacket and bandana with the "darkness."
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@$abz: If you look closely, at the page before the example you give, You can see his hands and jewelry through the cloud of his darkness shroud. Blackbeard's body does not transform, he simply covers his hands, feet, jacket and bandana with the "darkness."
Ignore my above post. It's explained later that Blackbeard cannot let attacks pass through him, "like you guys" in Teach's exact words.
But how'd he get so huge?
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Perona's ghosts could simply be considered 'extensions of herself' if it is a Devil Fruit, much like how Robin's hands are no longer attatched to her body.
In general, Logia's seem to be elemental-esque in nature, composed of a straightforward material such as fire, ice, electricity, sand, etc. Blackbeard seems to have the 'exception' of Logia in many ways, though.
But if Blackbeard's Logia can be an exception, then surely Perona's Fruit could be considered the same, if it even is a Fruit. Ms. Goldenweek's abilities were never confirmed to be a Fruit or just some random shit she can do; Perona may very well fall into the same category.
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Absalom and Perona's powers come from the fact that they are already dead.
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Every translation of that Blackbear scene has it as "I can´t just let attacks pass like you guys" instead of "I can´t let attacks pass like you guys". The usage of just is actually very important here (at least if it is possible to adecuately translate the meaning with this word) because in that case it remains to be an option to take the damage, while without the term "just" it simply is not possible for Blackbeard to not do so.
And about the Logia compared to Kalifa and Mr. 3 thingie (I´m sorry if it has been said but I can´t read the larger replies fully) Logia users can fully become the element they use while Kalifa and Mr. 3 only can use them.
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Logias are either elemental or a force of nature, right?
Gravity can be considered as a natural force, no?
I think Perona has the Spirit fruit, which works kind of how Robins power works, except she can make corporeal forms for her emotions, and can selectively employ which emotions to portray.
I think Absalom has either the Ghost fruit, (which is iffy, given the presence of the spirit fruit), or he has the Glass fruit, which allows light to pass through him, giving him the appearance of invisibility. -
However, considering the black skin and the window pattern on his outfit, I'm fairly confident that Gecko Moria has a Window Paramecia that allows him to redirect the flow of light any way that he desires. What is a shadow other than a blockage in the path of light? Gecko's powers allow him to turn people into "windows" that allow light to pass freely through them (except for the angles of light that someone will see them.) This explains the burning up in sunlight by causing direct UV radiation to inner organs as the light pass through.
Oh, and CodedTech Gecko does have 5 fingers on his right hand. So while he has sharp fingers, they're not exactly crab claws.
that's the best theory that's been offered yet, imo. since the arc is definitely inspired by nightmare before christmas, i would find it really surprising if gecko moria just was filled with shadows, especially since he just showed us blackbeard's DF at work… and darkness is awfully similar to shadows. if he did eat tons of shadows, how does that give him strength other than being big? he would have to use the shadows, and once again that's a lot like BB. maybe i'm wrong, but i bet his powers will be something off-kilter, like what boiga is saying.
also, i just picked up this issue of shonen jump at my local kinokuniya, and being able to look at all the pics up close and do translation myself, i've come to the following conclusions:
-sanji is calling the old man "jijii" and not franky. zoro is the only one chastising franky... his and sanji's eyes are looking in different directions, not the same.
-if team usopp says the guardian looked like brooke with skin, how would they know, considering they've only seen him as a skeleton, what he would look like skin? the only clue would be the laugh and of course, the afro. so the guy must be at least brooke related if he laughs like him and has his hair. also the guardian has a distinctly japanese feel to him with the wooden sandals and the ratty kimono, which is very different from brooke's british gentleman/hair-metal look... interesting.
-both perona and absalom seem to have to tell the zombies what to do, considering they are "zombie generals". so if they have to stay on the island because of what moria or hogback did to them and are happy when luffy talks of kicking moria's ass, then it appears that moria doesn't "fill them with shadows and control them" as many people are theorizing. to some extent they have their own free will.
-perona is completely motionless until the ghosts return to her and some have smiles and some have frowns. hmmm... that weird teddy bear guy is actually bigger than she is when she finally stands up, which adds to the doll theory, and the ghosts seem to give off bubbles when coming out of her leg... like califa's soap paramecia type.
-moria doesn't have a crab claw... it's just a sharp pointed hand, like hogback. also, if that thing by moria's head is a pillow, why is half of his face invisible/hazy? it's more than just obscured by darkness... it just isn't there, similar to when absalom appears from being invisible. adds to the whole "window" idea.
some of this may have already been said... just a one piece nerd, making my own theories. what do you guys think?
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Haha since you have the magazine with you could you do me a favour?
Im pretty sure Im just thinking way too much but look at the pic in my avatar.
Its the pic where Ussop, Nami, Chopper, fly into the Lab, and its focused near Ussop's foot. I dont know how to upload images…I swear it looks like a skull but its most likely a piece of wood
Thanks in advance!
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i hate to burst your bubble, but it looks to me like a plain, indistinguished piece of wood. the area in question is in the center of your avatar, and a little above usopp's foot, no?
yeah, it's just a piece of wood, as far as i can tell… and i looked long and hard. sorry.
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i hate to burst your bubble, but it looks to me like a plain, indistinguished piece of wood. the area in question is in the center of your avatar, and a little above usopp's foot, no?
yeah, it's just a piece of wood, as far as i can tell… and i looked long and hard. sorry.
Haha thanks!
I appreciate it. I just thought it was an odd piece of looking wood so I just wanted some clarification.
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I find it amusing how people imagine to see stuff like a skull on the bodyguard while it already was established through Choppers words that this guy is covered in flesh and skin.
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Absalom and Perona's powers come from the fact that they are already dead.
How is being dead give you superpowers?
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Just to let the mods know, i posted the complete 450 script + 7 spoiler pics
now i'm waiting for the mods
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Just to let the mods know, i posted the complete 450 script + 7 spoiler pics
now i'm waiting for the modsYou got it? Quick! PM me the pic!
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Oh, good call dinty on the door slice and dice. On first glance I had thought that a standard cartoonish door breaking event.
I think this settles it. The guardian is zoro's next opponent and the source for his new sword. Any one who can do that to a thick metal plated hardwood door is a swordsman of a caliber zoro would be obligated to face by his promise to kuina. I think that might also disqualify the guardian=brooke theory because I can't imagine the mugiwara crew having two strong swordsmen.
Thanks!
Yeah, I've looked at that scene again this morning, and one of the Guardian's cleanest cuts goes right through the hinge of the door – so it's safe to assume he can cut metal too. If this is Zoro's fight, it'll be a tough one, as their skills appear to be equal -- and since this fight's most likely occuring inside the mansion, they'll both have to find some way to control the power of their attacks so that they don't end up killing zombies and crewmates who are in this building, too.This mansion has a bigger population than the EL tower did. Even through the folks here are largely undead and largely hostile to the Mugiwara, there are some -- like Cindry -- who seem more like innocent bystanders and who shouldn't be killed in the crossfire.
Of course there's always the possibility that Brook won't be the new crewmate – that's very unlikely, I know, but I wouldn't put it past Oda to do that at least once in the story : to turn a potential friend into an enemy, since Oda's done the opposite several times (turned potential enemies into friends). I'm ready to accept Brook as a new crewmate except for one thing : I'm still suspicious about that "Bring me Bink's booze!!" episode. I hope we get an explanation of that eventually.
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If Moria is logia, I'll go on a rampage, seriously.
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I've been rereading the Thriller Bark chapters, and I must say, Franky has just been so boring this arc. I was finally starting to warm up to him, too. Every Strawhat except Franky have done something this arc that sticks in your mind; all Franky's done was kick Luffy out of the way of a flying sword. I don't think Oda knows what to do with him.
And why do I have the feeling of brainwashing going on in Hogback's lab?
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@Pass:
I've been rereading the Thriller Bark chapters, and I must say, Franky has just been so boring this arc. I was finally starting to warm up to him, too. Every Strawhat except Franky have done something this arc that sticks in your mind; all Franky's done was kick Luffy out of the way of a flying sword. I don't think Oda knows what to do with him.
What do you mean by doing "some thing"? I don't think Luffy's team has done much at all except wonder aimlessly, find out about Moria, and kick Zombie butt.
And why do I have the feeling of brainwashing going on in Hogback's lab?
In general yeah. I feel it with Cindry, her story and current condition seems very fishy.
! I feel it a lot with The Bouncer too, why would a Famous swordsman work for Moria and Co. on his own will. This on top of him being just like brook.
Proud supporter of Brook for Straw Hat Musician.
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Well, necromancers do generally have some degree of control over the corpses they re-animate. This doesn't mean that the corpse is always happy about it, though.
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What do you mean by doing "some thing"? I don't think Luffy's team has done much at all except wonder aimlessly, find out about Moria, and kick Zombie butt.
It doesn't have to be something important. It can be a joke, quote, general quirk, scenario, whatever.
In general yeah. I feel it with Cindry, her story and current condition seems very fishy.
I think she's just quirky.
! I feel it a lot with The Bouncer too, why would a Famous swordsman work for Moria and Co. on his own will. This on top of him being just like brook.
I don't see why that was in a spoiler tag.
But I agree. I think it's a "specific" type of brainwashing that has a side-effect of messing up the victim's brain, making them screwy. I think both Brooke and the swordsman were brainwashed and now suffer from that side-effect.
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@Pass:
I've been rereading the Thriller Bark chapters, and I must say, Franky has just been so boring this arc. I was finally starting to warm up to him, too. Every Strawhat except Franky have done something this arc that sticks in your mind; all Franky's done was kick Luffy out of the way of a flying sword. I don't think Oda knows what to do with him.
You're being awfully short with Franky. None of the SHs in Luffy's have done much except joke and beat up zombies. Franky has interracted with Sanji and Zoro so far (Sanji: pervert; Franky: :wub: ). And he was part of the emo ghost gag.
So, get over it…none of "team Luffy" has done much of anything yet. But, they will. Especially Franky, that bazooka can't be just for show.
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Rootbeer here, under a new username.
onemoment, please read my second post.
It doesn't have to be something important. It can be a joke, quote, general quirk, scenario, whatever.
It just has to be something that stands out. (Franky being called a perv=doesn't stand out for me)
Also, note that he hasn't even said much this arc. He just stands there. I think Oda just doesn't know how to work with this character.
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@Cindry-chan:
Also, note that he hasn't even said much this arc. He just stands there. I think Oda just doesn't know how to work with this character.
Neither has Luffy or Zoro said much of anything this arc. Characters like Franky are more effective in combat situtations than anything. These wondering around adventure types are more of Nami and Ussopps cup of tea.
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Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about. I mean stuff like Luffy asking a tree to join the crew. Only Luffy could have done that. Usopp gets scared and dones a priest outfit. There's interesting like quirks that can be unique and gives fluidness to how they ineract with Oda's world. Franky….. he's done pretty much stuff anyone could have done. Oda hasn't give him, at the lack of a better word, a specific "style".
Characters like Franky are more effective in combat situtations than anything
I know. Pity, isn't it?
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@Cindry-chan:
Luffy asking a tree to join the crew. Franky….. he's done pretty much stuff anyone could have done. I know. Pity, isn't it?
Luffy asking a tree to join is not unique, it's stupidity. Really, that is something anyone could have done. So far, in this arc Franky really doesn't need to say much of anything. If it is not relevant than there is no need to speak.
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Rootbeer if thats how you think then Zoro, Sanji, Robin, and franky have done nothing.
And if you count it he did make his silly Sudo sad mood when the Zombie elder told his story. Which is more then the other have done.
I don't see why that was in a spoiler tag.
The info of who the Bouncer is still is a spoiler, they are really strickt about spoiler materail here and I didn't want to take a chance.
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I think Oda just needs time. I mean, he's dealing with a significant number of characters. Just give him time, we know he can do it!
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Really, that is something anyone could have done.
They could, but WOULD they?
That's our Monkey.
So far, in this arc Franky really doesn't need to say much of anything. If it is not relevant than there is no need to speak.
You have to make the characters interesting. Give them some moments where they shine.
Rootbeer if thats how you think then Zoro, Sanji, Robin, and franky have done nothing.
Reread the arc, please.
They each have their moments. It's those short, very short, one or more panels where they are the center of attention. Be it Chopper spazzing out, Robin not losing her cool, Sanji going gaga over a set of nice legs, Zoro's….. (you got me here, but he doesn't do much anyway).
And if you count it he did make his silly Sudo sad mood when the Zombie elder told his story. Which is more then the other have done.
You have a point there.
Okay, so Oda has some sort of idea of what Franky should do. But he still doesn't know where to take him. He's just….. there.
The info of who the Bouncer is still is a spoiler, they are really strickt about spoiler materail here and I didn't want to take a chance.
Nah, you didn't say anything that hasn't been revealed ahead of this chapter. You didn't say the character's name or background. Don't sweat it.
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@Cindry-chan:
You have a point there.
Okay, so Oda has some sort of idea of what Franky should do. But he still doesn't know where to take him. He's just….. there.
One, I think Oda if plotting up the arc for a moment, I think the characters will come out of their shell more when chit chat is over and action starts.
Two, I think you're just anxious about Franky because he's new and different. Just because he's new people want to see him in action more. But I remember the arc after Sanji joined (arlong park). He hardly got any spotlight outside his fight.
Nah, you didn't say anything that hasn't been revealed ahead of this chapter. You didn't say the character's name or background. Don't sweat it.
Who he was in the past is not shown till 450. I want to respect the fact that three people may want to wait two more days for the chapter.
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Geez, talk about being a little free and easy with your spoilers. Better to not mention it at all, I'd think - even those little remarks are kind of iffy, but who am I to judge?
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I think you're just anxious about Franky
No, I actually hate him.
Who he was in the past is not shown till 450. I want to respect the fact that three people may want to wait two more days for the chapter.
Only one day, I think.
And it isn't spoilering because whether or not he's related to Brooke in any way is still speculation at this point. You didn't say anything that didn't pop into our heads upon reading this chapter.
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@Cindry-chan:
No, I actually hate him.
Then why, pray-tell, do you care if he does anything?
And it isn't spoilering because whether or not he's related to Brooke in any way is still speculation at this point. You didn't say anything that didn't pop into our heads upon reading this chapter.
Not the relationship with brook. Who he WAS when he was living, not theory but fact brought upon from the new chapter.
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Then why, pray-tell, do you care if he does anything?
Because I want him to do something besides bore the hell out of me. Also, I want to give him a chance. I know he has some potential, but as of now, I hate the character. I'm hoping Oda can work his magic and actually make me him.
Not the relationship with brook. Who he WAS when he was living, not theory but fact brought upon from the new chapter.
Oh, that. Well, you didn't say anything new other than that he was famous. And about the free will, we still don't know if that's completely true or not. It could be a red-herring of some kind.
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Geez, talk about being a little free and easy with your spoilers. Better to not mention it at all, I'd think - even those little remarks are kind of iffy, but who am I to judge?
You´re right, even little remarks are kind of iffy. I´ll bring an example of a past spoiler so that everybody can read it.
A couple of weeks back before the chapter 448 raw came out somebody who obviously read the spoiler of that chapter made a post like (I´m roughly paraphrasing):
"We know if Crocodile, Mihawk, Jinbei, Doflamingo, SPOILER and Kuma. No idea about the last one"
I guess there´s no need to say that he/she was talking about the Shichibukai. You see the problem is, that the person actually didn´t want to spoil us with the name Gecko Moria, but the whole sentance contained the information that a new Shichibukai would be in that chapter (if whatsoever form). I feeled pissed off and spoiled. And that week spoilers about Moria were posted three times which was really a huge disappointment for me since I don´t read the spoilers.
So yeah, no matter how little the info is keep that crap to yourselves. It´s not like you are all so super cool because you know something we don´t know. Everybody of us could easily go to the spoiler thread and see whats going on there but we don´t want to do it. It´s most definitely not because we´re lacking the coolness.
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Judging Franky and saying that you hate him after a few chapters that don't revolve around him without much oppurtunities to shine is quite stupid in my opinion.
The Luffy team have done jack except enter Thriller Bark and fight some zombies. Robin did nothing except for commenting on the Cerberos and corss her arms in one panel.
Zoro and Sanji haven't done anything either. The main focus is on Team Usopp.
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Most of you should know by now that Nami and Luffy get all the main focus. The rest are just… there. Nami gets used waaay too much.
Hopefully characters like Robin and Sanji will have decent fights, and Chopper will be more involved with the ending of a plot, and not just there to fill time.
Zoro should be used more too. He seems to be there just to fight swordsmen, and is hardly put in different scenarios.
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Franky will have his time to shine (he did a lot during the enis lobby anyway)
And how could you possible hate him? his past is sad, is design is funny *(his hair/refrigorator belly lol) and besides he's…S U U U P E R !
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Yeah, Franky's great. Besides, he explained some functions of the new ship at the beginning of this arc, which is important, too. And I'm sure he'll also get his moment on (the) Thriller Bark.
This was just a statement, I'm not getting into arguments about Franky.Anyway, this chapter sounds really cool. We don't get to see Moria or Brook, well, there's always next week.
