Could Shadow Stealing Have a Physics Based Explanation

boiga

Call me excessively rational but I'm not satisfied with a magic based Peter Pan style interpretation of the stealing of shadows. Shadow's have no mass or inherent energy that can be stolen. Oda's other Devil Fruit powers at least have had some sort of pseudoscientific explanation as to their mechanics (think noro noro particles,) so what mechanism could possibly explain this effect in a manner coherent with Odaphysics?

The Dilemma: How can someone not have a shadow or a reflection in a mirror while still being visible to the naked eye? How could this condition cause the affected to combust in direct sunlight?

Reasoning: Having a shadow means that when light hits an object it is blocked by reflection or absorption leaving a darker area in the direction opposite the source of the light.

As far as I can imagine, there are only three ways for a solid object to lack a shadow:
1. Become transparent lake clear glass, and thus not absorb or reflect light.
2. Alter the path of light so that it curves around the object with out coming into contact with it.
3. Emit more light from the object than any alternate light source (not likely for this situation)

To be transparent or to refract light around the body would also explain the lack of a reflection in a mirror. The problem is how to explain the fact that those with their shadow stolen are not invisible. In order to see an object, it has to reflect light back towards your eyes.

One Hypothesis: "Stealing someone's shadow" consists of making their body selectively transparent, so that all light passes freely through the body EXCEPT any photons that after reflection would come into direct contact with the lens of someone's eyes.

When you think about it, 99.99999% of photons that reflect off an object would NOT come into contact with some one's eyes and thus be seen. If only the photons that bounce back towards someone's visiion are reflected at all, that person would be invisible to cameras or mirrors and have less than .0000001% of a regular person's shadow. However, because the narrow rays of light directed towards their eyes are reflected as usual, the shadowless would still be viewed as solid by the anyone looking at them.

Also, none of the inner organs of a shadowless body would be protected from radiation by the skin causing severe sunburn to the inner organs of the body and causing heatstroke, dessication, and potentially even combustion from the light radiation passing through the body. So, this would also explain the death of the shadowless if caught in harsh sunlight but not when they are protected by the fog. The irony is that Brooke has no inner organs and so might be not be affected the same way that his meaty companion had been.

One other result of this explanation is that Absalom could simply have been given 100% transparency by the person who "stole the shadows" and does not necessarily have any devil fruit power of his own. Also, the only DF I can imagine having this kind of power would unfortunately be a Light logia type fruit. I'm currently really really dreading the millions of vs threads about Gecko vs Blackbeard by people who misunderstand the mechanisms behind both fruits.

So, is an Odaphysics based explanation of this effect plausible? Can you think of any other solution to the dilemma stated above? Am I simply looking waaaay to deep into this (as usual) and should just accept Oda bringing magical elements into the series? Any takers?

murray24

next week, how buggy can cut his body without lost his blood…

Kma

plausible or not I really enjoyed reading it.

Great work!

Whats funny though is if Oda said this most of the majority would be OK and accepting but if someone else comes up with the idea its most likely going to be bashed.

GearSecond

Well think of it this way.

The universe would create a conudrum if someone should cast a shadow but doesn't. Thus the sunlight is forced to get the better of them and they are removed from the existence of the universe
and any physical representation is likely just combustion since the sun creates heat.

How shadows are stolen….who knows. Shadows are actually a lack of energy, as is ice, yet Aokiji wields ice, so he's actually just using a lack of energy. Darkness is pure dark matter, making the user a black hole. So Aokiji and Black Beard are both using negative energies, it's not totally inplausable that someone could mess with a something that is actually no energy at all, just a lack of large amounts of light energy in one spot.

So I come to the conclusion that the shadow itself is merely a somewhat-physical representation of the ability to cast a shadow, which is actually stolen, so while they are able to reflect light back to our eyes that are not able to block light, thus they fail to cast their reflection into a mirror(lacking the reflection of light) and fail to block the light.

Pants-eater

It's Oda logic!

But honestly, we haven't seen it happen in the process. And what's wrong with magical, fun nonsense?

murray24

i think is power allow is shadow to move by itself. The first time you saw him, you don't know that so when you are fighting his physical body, you don't see his shadow capturing your. But you can beat his shadow with your shadow but it's diffucult to beat to "guys" in the same time because he still is a shichibukai so he is strong with his own power

Mugiwara Maximus

@boiga:

Could Shadow Stealing Have a Physics Based Explanation

No

@boiga:

Call me excessively rational

You're excessively (ir)rational

Rai

I always saw it that they AREN'T visible for the naked eye. Not when the light source is pure like the sun.
If the source of light is merely tiny light from holes in the fog or lightbulbs it's not pure, and therefore they can stand it, although they are invisible to the shadow and reflection world. Or something >_>

For the shadow stealing… dunno, it'd be pretty shallow for a DF but there's no other possibility. Shadows can't normally be stolen... Oda can do a wacky version though.

Takaho

Not sure about this but could it be a Devil Fruit ability maybe? I know there probably is a physics explanation but maybe a DF aswell? Totally off subject I've just realised lol

Aldrich

It is explained by the physics of crack smoke passing through Oda's respiratory system and fucking up his braincells.

Don Quichotte De Flamingo

Aldrich

It is explained by the physics of crack smoke passing through Oda's respiratory system and fucking up his braincells.

hehe so it is….so you can explain everything..

surly oda will find a explanation like he found it for foxy`s fruit.....their he also create a explanation

DemonX

It´s a devil fruit or somethin like that PERIOD

Impel Down

Or, Moria isn't the one stealing the shadows, Hogback is, and Moria is just using him.

boiga

@Don:

hehe so it is….so you can explain everything..

surly oda will find a explanation like he found it for foxy`s fruit.....their he also create a explanation

Agreed on both counts. My question is what kind of mechanism Oda will offer for a devil fruit that can make someone invisible to everything but the human/deer/cyborg eye? The fact that what is being altered here is the way light interacts with the victims bodies makes me think that we'll see a Logia type Light Fruit.

So, which would you rather see?

1. A pseudoscientific Oda-physics based Light Fruit?

2. A Peter Pan fantasy style magical Shadow Fruit that animates and steals shadows like Murray24 mentions above?

3. Some other option.

Kma

I think that the Shadow thing might just be a side effect really and the that it really goes beyond of stealing someone shadow.

I believe the reason why Brooke and the old man call it getting their shadow stole is because they dont know what really happened to them and they called it by how they see it.

Deblas

I bet Stephen Hawkings knows the answer…

seriously, that was hella boring to read. I don't read One Piece to analyze and look for logical explanations for how things work. That just makes you look more irrational than rational. Save that enthusiasm for reality.

Impel Down

I believe the reason why Brooke and the old man call it getting their shadow stole is because they dont know what really happened to them and they called it by how they see it.

Well, and Brook didn't have a shadow.
Anyway, I think Moria is to shadow stealing as Kakuzu is to heart stealing.

GearSecond

@Pants-eater:

It's Oda logic!

But honestly, we haven't seen it happen in the process. And what's wrong with magical, fun nonsense?

Because anyone who refuses to accept "because the author said" feel they are better than you and must have proof. Much like how a world wher everyone gave everyone what they had for free, money would be irrelevant. In this case it would makes facts irrelevant.

And in the modern day, authors are now beginning to apply more scientific fac tto their fictinoal stories, prodding more people to examine everything without a logical or physical explanation.

Monkey Spirit

It's just like Califa being able to wash away strength with her soap. Just go along with it.

"Whenever you try to apply real-life physics to a fantasy manga, God kills a catgirl."

Pants-eater

Or, Moria isn't the one stealing the shadows, Hogback is, and Moria is just using him.

Great place to put your theories in. A thread trying to apply the theft of shadows to Newton's Laws.

Because anyone who refuses to accept "because the author said" feel they are better than you and must have proof. Much like how a world wher everyone gave everyone what they had for free, money would be irrelevant. In this case it would makes facts irrelevant.

I was part serious with the "we haven't seen it happen in the process, we know jack shit about it" and was very serious about how it's Oda-logic.

And in the modern day, authors are now beginning to apply more scientific fac tto their fictinoal stories, prodding more people to examine everything without a logical or physical explanation.

1. A lot of those "explanations" and trying to apply the summoning of a great demon to the Laws of Thermodynamics suck.
2. Oda doesn't have to follow this, he doesn't follow this and he probably won't follow this. Oda's not an ordinary author.

Have you ever heard of plot devices?

Impel Down

Great place to put your theories in. A thread trying to apply the theft of shadows to Newton's Laws.

No, what I'm saying is: if Hogback is taking them, then he's probably using some sort of machine with lights and shit, which throws off all the equasions above.

Monkey Spirit

A machine wouldn't really need a physical explanation. The bionics involved in the creation of Franky were never explained. Just go along with it.

(God, your sig is awful.)

boiga

The only reason it makes sense to expect some kind of physical basis for powers in one piece is that Oda uses scientific theory to help him design devilfruit powers. He takes a common ability of an element and brings it to an extreme. There are relatively few examples of "magic" in one piece.

For example:
-Nami's weather controlling abilities are based on the creating high and low pressure zones through the heat/ cold bubbles. This is how weather systems form in nature. He could have just given her weapon the ability to spout out storm clouds but he chose to give it a scientific explanation.

-Enel's abilities were limited by rubber's properties as an insulator. Other Manga would simply have the main character have a "power" boost after another training session to explain how the main character could beat a superior fighter. Oda uses physics.

-Foxy's noro noro beam were based on made up noro noro particles that control the speed of time. A traditional manga never would have gone into mechanism because they have no need to explain why characters can shoot lasers out of their hands. Oda chooses to atleast make an attempt at a scientific mechanism.

-Blackbeards powers come from the manipulation gravity and blackholes, both of which are based on physical properties of the universe and not magic.

-etc.

Oda uses physics to help design his devil fruit powers. Because of this, the most reliable way to speculate on the abilities of currently unexplained powers is to use physics as a starting point and then use creativity to go from there.

Edit: I've found that impeldown is much easier to stand if you adblock his sig.

Impel Down

I'm sure Oda can just use Peter Pan logic to taking shadows. And Wendy (Nami) will sew Peter's (Brook's) shadow back on his feet.

GearSecond

@Pants-eater:

Great place to put your theories in. A thread trying to apply the theft of shadows to Newton's Laws.

I was part serious with the "we haven't seen it happen in the process, we know jack shit about it" and was very serious about how it's Oda-logic.

1. A lot of those "explanations" and trying to apply the summoning of a great demon to the Laws of Thermodynamics suck.
2. Oda doesn't have to follow this, he doesn't follow this and he probably won't follow this. Oda's not an ordinary author.

Have you ever heard of plot devices?

Were you not listening?

He DOES apply real science to tons of stuff, that doesn't neccesarily mean he does every time, but there's plenty of examples. Noro Noro beams use particles, Luffy's organs stretch, allowing him to do something normal people can't witohut their organs asploding. And Luffy's punches come back because rubber doesn't stay stretched out.

My point was that because he HAS used these examples, it just makes people look for real life references in everything, and people get upset when one thing out of a ton of other stuff DOESN'T have that explanation that applies to real world physics.

blacky

I do have an explanation:

The shadow is not stolen, it is covered up! Small photon-emitting particles of whatever nature coat the person who has "lost" the shadow and that person's direct surroundings in a small radius.

The particles which cover the floor where the shadow would have been, emit light into all directions of the same brightness and color of the "floor without shadow" - thus the shadow becomes invisible.

However, as soon as the particles are exposed in direct sunlight they emit large amounts of photons and thus create high temperatures that ignite the poor persons who have "lost" their shadow.

Admiral Wolfpox

This is why I believe stealing someone's shadow will affect whether or not Blackbeard can use the black hole powers on them! It affects how corporeal they are or something.

Pants-eater

Were you not listening?

He DOES apply real science

Bwuh?

to tons of stuff, that doesn't neccesarily mean he does every time, but there's plenty of examples. Noro Noro beams use particles, Luffy's organs stretch, allowing him to do something normal people can't witohut their organs asploding. And Luffy's punches come back because rubber doesn't stay stretched out.
My point was that because he HAS used these examples, it just makes people look for real life references in everything, and people get upset when one thing out of a ton of other stuff DOESN'T have that explanation that applies to real world physics.

That's not science. That's a mixture of common sense and plot devices.

Urian

I don´t know how to explain this but the word that came to my mind when the old man talked about his stolen shadow by Moria was "Voodoo".

GearSecond

Now you're just ignoring the rest of my post.

So Noro Noro particles are fictional?

Newton's 3rd law isn't used by Luffy every so often? coughlabooncough

And Electricity not being confucted by rubber is made up too I guess?

And rubber's stretching abnilities aren't common sense, it's common knowledge, only because scientists figure out what it can and can't do. Maybe if you addressed the ENTIRE post, instead of only the parts you think are wrong, you wouldn't sound like such an idiot.

Nauykuyr

It's impossible to steal a shadow in physics. Shadows are not tangible, they're an absence of something. This is like having a completely empty box, and saying you're gonna steal what's inside the box. Well whoopdeedoo, you've stolen nothing.

Any reflection, diffraction, or absorption of light causes a shadow or moves it to someplace else. Adding lights does not remove a shadow. You won't be able to see the shadow anymore if lights are added (a problem of perception precision), but it's still there.

Making something transparent would also make it possible to see lights through them. Simply reflecting lights off them to make them appear opaque wouldn't be possible if you wanted to remove shadows. If a transparent person walks up to a candle, you'd see the candle through them on top of their own image (like a ghost). Such light would need to be blocked, which would create a very perceptible shadow in your direction.

Also, there's the issue of a half-silvered mirror. If a "vampire" stands on the reflective side of the one-way mirror, and you stand on the absorbed side. You'd still see the vampire, so what would the vampire see? You can either have a physically reasonable answer, or a fantasy one.

As for Oda knowing physics, he doesn't. Trust me on this one. He has a hard time keeping Oda physics straight already.

Kalei

Most interesting post I've read in months.

There's always some sort of physics-based explaination of almost anything that can happen, comic or not. The argument is completely rational, however I highly doubt Oda would've put such a plot point through that kind of scientific scrutiny.

It's OP. What happens usually happens "because." Not to say I don't love this kind of observation, but I highly doubt it'll have any part in the actual OP plot. It's like with the 2nd gear discussions when people (myself included) thought that Luffy had vulcanized himself.

The theory was completely sound and explained everything in full that Luffy was able to do after the process, however Oda's explaination was decidedly less scientifically accurate so that the process could be reversable for future plot devices and writing. Same thing here.

*Meh*

Shadows are not tangible, they're an absence of something.

Adding lights does not remove a shadow. You won't be able to see the shadow anymore if lights are added (a problem of perception precision), but it's still there.

If the shadow is an absence of something(light being blocked by an object absorbing and reflecting), then wouldn't adding light eliminate the shadow? It's like saying "If I put two shoes in an empty shoebox, I'll have a box with two shoes and nothing in it."

It's true that the object casting the shadow won't disappear, even if it is engulfed by so much light that we can't see it without blocking some of the light out (planetary transits and eclipses, for instance). However if an object is illuminated equally from all angles, then there is no absence of light to be discerned. Of course, it would be really hard to see the object, too.

GearSecond

Actually a shadow is LESS light than the area surrounding it…..

It's not a lack of anything.

Nauykuyr

It's a misconception that the shadow is what you see. What you're seeing on a wall or ground is the projection of a shadow, not the shadow itself.

Even if a room is illuminated from all sides, if there's something in the middle of the room, a shadow will be formed. Opaque objects either absorb or reflect light. If light is absorbed, then the shadow will be projected upon all sides.

If light is reflected upon a mirrored object on all sides, then the shadow becomes undetectable (by measure light output in lumens), but still technically there. This is similar to a diffracted shadow, where no light is lost due to absorption, but projected from one direction to another.

A shadow is a LACK of something: it's a lack of light on a projected area due to the blocking or diffracting of the rays that would appear without the interference.

Regardless, a shadow is not something that can be captured, since it does not physically exist. A shadow is defined from light (tangible and perceptible). Lights are not defined from shadows.

RuNa

I'll give you a quick reason as to why Oda will mpst likely not use real-world physics to explain stealing shadows:
Chopper in Skypiea I believe that can answer your question.

Kma

@RuNa:

I'll give you a quick reason as to why Oda will mpst likely not use real-world physics to explain stealing shadows:
Chopper in Skypiea I believe that can answer your question.

Are you refering to the heavy point he used against Gedatsu?

I think that the loss of the shadow is a side effect of what really happens. What I mean is that I think Moria's powers arent directed at stealing your "shadow" but something else of your being that causes you to lose your shadow. Perhaps that just makes things more complcated but I think losing your shadow is just the surface and one of the many side effects of his true ability.

*Meh*

Ah, I see now. Thanks for clarifying that, Nauykuyr.

Nauykuyr

I think the whole arc is a slight tip of the hat to Hellsing. No, Hellsing didn't invent any of its lore, but I do think there's enough of a combination to be worth mentioning. Moria has the potential to be the most badass looking villain in one piece if he's similar to an Alucard Oda style.

We've seen the style and creatures of this arc before. I always found Alucards shadows (baskervilles/cerberus included) to be the most interesting scenes:

!

I wonder… could Blackbeard have stolen his shadow... his devilfruit power is quite... diffrent

G-Greato

Didn't you notice?

! Oda is taking a break this week to think of an explanation =)

Sven Volfied

@GearSecond:

So Noro Noro particles are fictional?

I hope you're drunk. Are you seriously trying to imply that Noro Noro particles exist?

Sanctum

@Sven:

I hope you're drunk. Are you seriously trying to imply that Noro Noro particles exist?

Perhaps they do in the OP world. But the fact that they're there in OP means that OP may have it's own physics system relative to our own, yet tweaked a bit to further Oda's logic for characters. It's not like he can't use fantasy elements as well, I find a hybrid of fantasy and scientific explanations good to have in a story. It gives the author more free reign in how he can move the story through.

On the issue of the shadow stealing having physical implications, I'd say, in reality, no. In OP, you have a walking, talking skeleton, who has no physical wayof movement, no muscle mass, no life supporting organs. There is no way that Brook can live without using the DF explanation. I'd say it's just as logical to use a shadow thief. Oda might believe that there is some sort of "mystical" relationship with shadows and souls. Maybe Hildon, being a vampire like creature might be without a shadow.

Let's just wait for the next chapter or two and hope that it's explained.

Kenechi

The is a work of fiction. Oda can make whatever he wants happen. It's pretty stupid and really quite sad to not accept what is written and look for a scientific explaination..

*Meh*

I think it is less so about looking for a scientific explanation, and more about trying to predict what the 'Oda-tific' explanation will be.

GearSecond

There us nothing that lacks a physical form, the Shadow has to be physical in some way to exist in our physical universe.

Wherever a shadow is, there is something causing LESS light to project it.

*Meh*

'Physical' yes, material no. A shadow is the area of an object partially or fully obscured by the presence of another object. In physical terms, it is an area which receives less energy from photons because the area of something else is blocking it. The area obscured is both physical and material; the darkness relative to it is caused by a lower level of energy, which is physical and non-material.

Impel Down

He buys your shadow from you. That's how.

*Meh*

@Impel:

He buys your shadow from you. That's how.

Well then, I guess Nami will be his next victim.

Pants-eater

Now you're just ignoring the rest of my post.

So Noro Noro particles are fictional?

Newton's 3rd law isn't used by Luffy every so often? coughlabooncough

And Electricity not being confucted by rubber is made up too I guess?

The particles is simply a plot device, not physics based. Newton's third law is also common sense but common sense must be sacrificed for the sake of fiction.

I didn't say anything about electricity not conducting rubber.

**> And rubber's stretching abnilities aren't common sense, it's common knowledge, only because scientists figure out what it can and can't do. Maybe if you addressed the ENTIRE post, instead of only the parts you think are wrong, you wouldn't sound like such an idiot.

I think it would be better summed up like this:

!

http://funnies.paco.to/cartoon.html**