If a character loses to a guy who has a logia in one piece does this means that the character that lost is weak?
Or does it mean he is weaker than the guy who has a logia ?
I'm asking this because Blackbeard said to his crewmate when they where going to fight ace that they cannot beat that man…..are they weaker than ace? Or is it that a logia can't be beat if u dont know their weakness ?
Logias don't enhance your physical stregnth. Just elemental stregnth. You don't see Crocodile or Enel breaking stones with their fists now do you?? Logia= 100% win or 100% loose. Or you can just train like Smoker…
im not saying they are not strong or that the logia makes then stronger what im saying is that lets say that just saying >.<
this is only an example that sanji is stronger than ace but he doesnt have a logia….do u think he could win? no because he cant hit fire...so what im trying to say is that maybe there is no why that a normal person can beat a logia...
thats why i think that none of blackbeard crew could beat ace but blackbeard.
in a fight logias are probably going to win against any non logias. logias are too strong with the ability to turn into their element to avoid any attacks imo.
although they probably will win in most fights against non logias(the rare chances of them losing is water luffy vs croc) it doesnt mean they are necesary stronger. It really depends on wut you consider more important.
Unless you know the logia's specific weakness or maybe you're just so badass that you can damage the elements, then I don't see you beating a logia no matter how strong your physical strength is.
You can't damage/beat what you can't touch.
In the BB example, those guys wouldn't have lasted against Ace because he can just turn into fire and nullify any of their attacks (bullets, punches, flying hotels). Also, he's no noob himself when it comes to fighting and pirating, so a logia in his hands increases his ability to win a lot more.
so we agreed that maybe blackbeard crewmates are not weaker than ace ?
Logia types in of themselves puts the user above the standard fighter. For example, Luffy can easily beat thousands of standard marines at once, but if one of them suddenly ate a logia type, that standard marine is now invulnerable to all of Luffy's attacks (though it certainly doesn't mean said Marine can beat Luffy).
The invulnerablility that a logia user gains is what makes them so dangerous. However, this does not necessarily mean that they are physically weak or unskilled fighters. Crocodile had plenty of backups and other uses of his powers in case his power to turn into sand failed him. Aokiji is clearly a skilled fighter as he was able to block Luffy's, Zoro's, and Sanji's attacks all at once. Even during Ace VS BB, Van Auger himself said that Ace was still an very strong and skilled fighter when his powers failed him.
What kind of strength are you exactly trying to get at?
If you are talking physical prowess (ie who would win an arm wrestling contest) then logia are only as strong as they have trained to be, just like anyone else in One Piece.
If you are talking about who would win in a fight, then that can only easily be determined by having them fight and seeing who would win. Some fighting styles could destroy certain logia while other logia be struggle uselessly against them.
There isn't any all encompassing power meter in one piece. The fact that nami beat calipha who beat sanji who beat jabura does not mean nami is stronger or could beat jabura. One on One match ups are only determined by each fighters' individual strengths and weaknesses.
Logias are seriously over-powered as far as normal condition battles go. They can't be hit by any physical attack unless you use their direct weakness(Croc-Water, Enel-Rubber). This way they get a nearly perfect defense, but to make them even stronger their elemental attacking power is awsome even at the most basic level.
No wonder some don't take it seriously to train their physical strength anymore and are totaly owned if they lose their ability.
Some are still strong without their fruits though, BB or Ace for example.
Logia fruits are kinnda the easy way out, eat one and you are ready for the Grand Line.
"Sleep brings no rest to me; The shadows of the death my wakening eyes may never see surround my bed"-Emily Bronte(The Horrors of Sleep)
what im trying to say is that if a character a non-logia lost against a logia it does not mean that he is weak. Again like when blackbeard told Auger and burguess that they can't beat Ace he didnt say it because he thougth they were weaker than ace but becauase ace was a logia and could not be harm.
when people saw this said that blackbeard crew was not that strong because they could no beat Ace when we all know that he is a logia and theres no way that u could beat him no matter how strong u are.
what im trying to say is that if a character a non-logia lost against a logia it does not mean that he is weak. Again like when blackbeard told Auger and burguess that they can't beat Ace he didnt say it because he thougth they were weaker than ace but becauase ace was a logia and could not be harm.
when people saw this said that blackbeard crew was not that strong because they could no beat Ace when we all know that he is a logia and theres no way that u could beat him no matter how strong u are.
You see, the thing is, it all depends on how you define stenght. If you can't be hit then thats some kind of strenght too.
On another note, as long as Oda doesn't show us a way of how a normal person can beat a Logia wothout any gimmicks(sea stone) it really seems that someone like Zoro could lose against a kid that just ate a Logia.
I don't think thats the way it is with Ace though. He'd be strong without his Logia too, I guess stronger than any of BBs crew since Van Auger mentioned how Ace can still fight without his abillity.
yeah Ace is strong but look at the other logia user like enelu and cocodrile they were not that strong even arlong in my opinion was tougher than both if they didnt have the fruit power.
@VL7:
No wonder some don't take it seriously to train their physical strength anymore and are totaly owned if they lose their ability.
From what we've seen, most of the people who wind up with a Logia tend to be physically strong from the start. They rely heavily on their ability for offensive and defensive purposes, but they're certainly not weaklings without it.
Teach is the best example as his Logia is designed less as a way of producing and controling darkness and more as a medium by which he can apply his own physical strength directly against opponents regardless of their own abilities. His Logia could not work to its full potential if Teach isn't tremendously strong in order to take advantage of it.
Ace was strong before he got his Logia and commentary during the fight suggests that he hasn't fallen off since then.
Crocodile had his ability nullified during his second fight with Luffy, absorbed as much damage as anybody this side of Arlong during that fight, and the major effect of all that was that he was really pissed off. Even in his third fight, he took what is still one of, if not the, most devastating attacks in the entire series and doesn't seem to bear any lasting injuries from it a few weeks later.
Ener took a Reject Dial and didn't seem to have much in the way of lasting damage after restarting his heart. Look at what that Reject Dial did to Giant Jack and did to Wiper's shoulder. A normal Impact Dial is often described as a bone breaking impact and a Reject Dial is far more powerful, but Ener seemed perfectly okay seconds after being hit with it. Ener suffers against an opponent that his abilities won't work on and is poster child for not totally relying on Devil Fruit abilities, but I don't think that he can be called physically weak.
Aokiji stopped Luffy's attack with his own brute strength rather than simply allowing the attack to pass through. That suggests that he's freakishly strong of his own accord.
Smoker's really the single biggest question mark on this issue, though I'm inclined to think that he's actually started training physically as well as focusing on controlling his powers. He has to know how strong Luffy is after Alabasta and I doubt he'd want to fall behind.
Considering the rarity of the Devil Fruits themselves and the even more rare nature of the Logias, it's likely that they can only be acquired by somebody fairly strong to begin with. There's bound to be fairly stiff competition for them, especially in pirating circles. So, unless shown otherwise, it's a fairly safe assumption that anybody with a Logia is going to be very strong even without it.
Ubiq likes to drop into topics now and then and totally destroy us with smart observations. Dunno if y'all noticed that or not…
Haha yeah sorta.. I quite agree with Ubiq too.
Though, I think the OP's intentions were: if Ace had not had his Logia powers, would he still have been able to beat Van Auger and Burgeioss? (however you spell his name)
My answer to that is: probably yes. Like somone else mentioned, Van Auger himself mentioned that Ace had impressive physical ability even though he was a Logia user, of whom usually train their powers more than their physical fitness. It is apparent that since the 2 attacked Ace despite knowing his fire-changing powers showed that they were quite confident of overcoming those powers. Ace, however, did not give them a chance to, and thus Blackbeard warned them not to go against him.
Which leads to my point that Logia's can probably actually be beaten via physical means, but we just haven't seen it yet. Which leads me to agree with Ubiq, and further add to his point. While we see that Logia users mostly have strong physical, I think that maybe Logia users are strong BECAUSE they have strong physical. I think that being more able to use your Logia isnt just about increasing those powers, but also having the physical means to keep up with that expanding power. It's sort of like increasing the maximum capacity that your body can contain your new power. In other words, if someone physically weak were to consume a Logia, then his Logia ability would probably not be too powerful either, since he would not be able to use that power to its fullest extent due to certain body limitations. This is, however, mostly speculation, but I hope that this might be true enough.
You don't have to be strong to eat a Logia fruit, thats a fact I think!
So basically your question is:"How strong would the Logia users be without a Logia?"
I think all the Logias we've seen so far (Smoker, Ace, Croc, Enel, Aokiji, Blackbeard <-did I miss one?) are or were quite strong physically.
Smoker: Was stronger than Luffy (in terms of speed i.e.) at the time of their last fight and doesn't seem to be the type to sit around idle.
Ace: Luffy couldn't even beat him once (pre Logia)
Croc: Yeah… ok... I don't think he could do much without his Logia
Enel: Hmmm... he could hold Zoro's swords but I'm not sure if this was only in the anime. He later is sent flying by Luffy and doesn't seem to stand a chance against him in closer combat. So..yeah...
Aokiji: Stopped Zoro+Sanji+Luffy within few seconds. Nothing more to say
Blackbeard: He got his fruit just recently and was a member of WB's before that. Plus he has to be physically strong to use his fruit to the extend
So apart from Enel and Croc, where I'm not really sure because you can't compete everyone to Luffy in close combat, all Logias are strong even without their fruits and become machines of power with them.
This reminds me, that the fights in the future will be even harder to win than Croc/Enel. Because although they both mastered their abilities very well, I think the others have mastered theirs even better (Blackbeard is the exeption, at least now) and have martial art skills, too.
Edit:Sorry I was too lazy to read the long post above and wrote nearly the same...
Hmmmhn… Luffy was incredibly weak in the beginning (ch1) and couldn't do anything but be stretched. He then trained his abilities over 10 years and afterwards constantly developed further, improving and even evolving his powers.
Crocodile did the same. He even explicitely said that a devil fruit ability needs to be trained and that he (also) trained 10 years to become this powerful so it is safe to assume, that he was also weak at first. It is also quite probable that the weaker ability-users, especially Mr.5, could have done a lot more damage than they did, if they trained their powers accordingly.
To see a direct correlation between physical strength and the power of the devil fruit ability is a bit far-fetched, but of course it's important.
Kalifa and Kaku have been rather strong ability-users from the start, even though they only had their powers for a very brief period of time. It is no wonder though, because both had a lot of battle-experience and were incredibly strong to begin with. Kaku's Zoan-powers basically amplified his physical strength and Kalifa on the other hand intelligently combined the newly-acquired devil abilities with her her initial strength and her CP9-techniques.
If they or other ability-users can be defeated is a totally different story, though:
Everyone in general has one or even several weak points. Normal people and most ability-users can be electrified, burned, drowned, blasted and defeated by brute force. And some can't. Electricity is dangerous to most people, for Luffy it wasn't. Luffy however cannot overcome smoke, while Ace can. Some people aren't vulnerable to Robin's attacks, while others are. And some of those who can defeated by Robin cannot be defeated by others again - For example the guy who can make swords rust.
It's like playing "Rock-Paper-Scissors": The question is not whether someone is physically stronger than someone else, but whether the way they attack is fitting to defeat that enemy. Defeating a logia user with mere force alone is "probably" completely impossible, but they - of course - have their own, special weakness. Whatever that might be.
From what we've seen, most of the people who wind up with a Logia tend to be physically strong from the start. They rely heavily on their ability for offensive and defensive purposes, but they're certainly not weaklings without it.
Ener took a Reject Dial and didn't seem to have much in the way of lasting damage after restarting his heart. Look at what that Reject Dial did to Giant Jack and did to Wiper's shoulder. A normal Impact Dial is often described as a bone breaking impact and a Reject Dial is far more powerful, but Ener seemed perfectly okay seconds after being hit with it. Ener suffers against an opponent that his abilities won't work on and is poster child for not totally relying on Devil Fruit abilities, but I don't think that he can be called physically weak.
Your post is great Ubig but Ener was physically weak without his Logia powers. As you can see it was very difficult for him to take damage from Luffy's attacks. Ener was a blow away from dying by Luffy and for all intents and purposes Ener was dead after the Reject Dial and just restarted his heart.
Haha yeah sorta.. I quite agree with Ubiq too.
Though, I think the OP's intentions were: if Ace had not had his Logia powers, would he still have been able to beat Van Auger and Burgeioss? (however you spell his name)
If the situation goes in the same manner it did, then the answer is decidely no. Sans Logia powers, Ace winds up with a bullet in his brain, heart, stomach, crotch, and kidneys before having a building dropped on him.
If Ace is a bit more cautious, then it's up in the air. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Burgess weren't quite a bit stronger than Ace physically. If nothing else, he's physically stronger than Arlong, who is himself no weakling, and incredibly tough as he shrugged off being hit by Hikan.
Augur… well, it depends on how fast Augur is. If he can put some distance between himself and Ace, then it's only a matter of time until he kills Ace with his sniping.
Crocodile did the same. He even explicitely said that a devil fruit ability needs to be trained and that he (also) trained 10 years to become this powerful so it is safe to assume, that he was also weak at first.
The training was in reference to honing his Devil Fruit. Most people are simply content to have a Fruit and don't put much real thought into how to use it. Again, Crocodile is remarkably resilient to physical attacks as shown by his second fight with Luffy; either he's kept up his physical training on top of everything else or he was fairly strong to begin with.
Again, considering the rarity of Devil Fruit to begin with and the rarity of Logias in particular, it seems likely that you have to be fairly powerful to begin with in order to acquire one. Otherwise, you're not likely to find it and claim it for your own. Look at what happened to Satch for instance: someone more powerful took it away from him.
Your post is great Ubig but Ener was physically weak without his Logia powers. As you can see it was very difficult for him to take damage from Luffy's attacks. Ener was a blow away from dying by Luffy and for all intents and purposes Ener was dead after the Reject Dial and just restarted his heart.
Again, look what Reject did to Giant Jack: it blew the beanstalk to bits. Yet it didn't have any lasting impact on Ener; same for Luffy's attacks. Ener was obviously caught off guard whenever he was hit, but Luffy still hit him several times without any lasting impact. Ener even managed to stop Gum Gum Gatling just by grabbing Luffy's arms; that doesn't suggest weak.
One more thing beyond all that: Seastone is supposed to be stronger than diamond is it not? Then how did he smash Wiper's Seastone jetskates so easily? His powers won't work it, so it has to be pure brute force does it not?
Complicating things since 2009.
Eneru hadn't experienced a lot of pain before, since he's relied on his Logia too much. The reject dial… I can't explain. If Luffy can cause Eneru a heap of pain, why can't a reject dial? But I still think Eneru is physically weak, compared to other characters.
Ace isn't... since he used to beat Luffy as a kid, without his logia. Of course, back then Luffy already possessed his DF... and Ace was still beating him. Ace is naturally very strong, as stated with his fight with Blackbeard.
Ace, in my opinion, is still stronger than Luffy. Luffy has a little way to go before he's up to Ace's level.
Again, look what Reject did to Giant Jack: it blew the beanstalk to bits. Yet it didn't have any lasting impact on Ener; same for Luffy's attacks. Ener was obviously caught off guard whenever he was hit, but Luffy still hit him several times without any lasting impact. Ener even managed to stop Gum Gum Gatling just by grabbing Luffy's arms; that doesn't suggest weak.
One more thing beyond all that: Seastone is supposed to be stronger than diamond is it not? Then how did he smash Wiper's Seastone jetskates so easily? His powers won't work it, so it has to be pure brute force does it not?
The Reject dial Blew Giant jack to pieces which suggest that Giant jack died. The Reject Dial did the same to Ener, it killed him. Ener's durabilty and strength was not that impressive, he was knocked down by a flurry of normal punches then proceeded to get KO"d by a Bazooka. Ener after that was a blow away from defeat.
When did Ener smash Wipers jetskates?
In reference to Ubiq's rarity comment, Logia DFs are probably extremely difficult to obtain. For starters, we have…
Smoker, Aokiji - 2 marines
Crocodile, Ace, BB - 2 WB pirates + 1 shichibukai
Eneru - anomaly, but from his combat skills, he was probably originally a warrior of some form.
I agree that these DFs are probably hard to get, and you probably need to be in a certain position to attain them. For example, we have BB waiting on WB's ship for decades to obtain the DF he wanted, where he thought he'd have the best chances.
To the OP - Not sure what your question or debate issue was targeted, but it's hard to answer. The Logia DF establishes almost the ultimate defense in that the logia user can't be hit w/o said "device" to break their defense. So depending on your definition of strength, the answer could be "yes" or "no".
If you consider absolute "strength", then the answer is no. A person cannot be stronger than a logia user unless this person has the ability to beat said logia user.
If you consider physical "strengh", then the answer is relative to the physical strength of the individual fighters.
@Ubig - I don't think the entire jetskate was made of seastone, but only a part of it. Unless this is a mistake and though Oda has made several art mistakes, i've yet to see a storyline mistake.
The Reject dial Blew Giant jack to pieces which suggest that Giant jack died.
The fact that it blew it to bits suggests that Reject does massive internal injuries to the victim; which is back up by what we see happen to Shura and Ener both. The difference is that Ener didn't seem particularly put out by it, but was able to fix the damage just be restarting his heart.
The Reject Dial did the same to Ener, it killed him.
And that's all. Again, we have numerous statements that Impact is almost bone-shattering even to the person that is using it, while Reject is ten times as powerful. Reject actually damaged Wiper's shoulder and Wiper definitely isn't a weakling. Unless Dials actually do more damage to the person using it than the target, then Reject should do have direct physical damage to its target that is far and away what it does to Wiper. If nothing else, Ener should have suffered from at least fractured ribs just because of where he was hit by it. And yet, nothing.
Ener's durabilty and strength was not that impressive, he was knocked down by a flurry of normal punches then proceeded to get KO"d by a Bazooka. Ener after that was a blow away from defeat.
From what I see, it's as much shock from being hit in the first place as anything else. He actually recovers fairly quickly from most of the attacks; even Luffy's finishing move didn't have him out very long judging by the fact that he recovered quickly enough to keep Maxim from falling all of the way down to the Blue Sea.
For another example, Ener was driven through the deck of Maxim by Axe and was merely pissed off; he's a lot stronger than most people give him credit for. Again, we see him do things that don't make sense if he isn't extremely strong himself.
When did Ener smash Wipers jetskates?
Chapter 276; you can clearly see where part of the Seastone snaps in half as well.
The fact that it blew it to bits suggests that Reject does massive internal injuries to the victim; which is back up by what we see happen to Shura and Ener both. The difference is that Ener didn't seem particularly put out by it, but was able to fix the damage just be restarting his heart. And that's all. Again, we have numerous statements that Impact is almost bone-shattering even to the person that is using it, while Reject is ten times as powerful. Reject actually damaged Wiper's shoulder and Wiper definitely isn't a weakling. Unless Dials actually do more damage to the person using it than the target, then Reject should do have direct physical damage to its target that is far and away what it does to Wiper. If nothing else, Ener should have suffered from at least fractured ribs just because of where he was hit by it. And yet, nothing.
Ener was dead after taking the Reject Dial, that is worst than ribs cracking.
From what I see, it's as much shock from being hit in the first place as anything else. He actually recovers fairly quickly from most of the attacks; even Luffy's finishing move didn't have him out very long judging by the fact that he recovered quickly enough to keep Maxim from falling all of the way down to the Blue Sea.For another example, Ener was driven through the deck of Maxim by Axe and was merely pissed off; he's a lot stronger than most people give him credit for. Again, we see him do things that don't make sense if he isn't extremely strong himself.
Ener was KNOCKED out by a Bazooka and struggled to get back on his feet.Crocodile took it and then proceeded to kill Luffy. I believe he even knew he had to evade the next attack or he would have died.
Phenomenol… he only died. His bones weren't crushed. Death is worse, and that shows his body function weakness... but the fact that his bones didn't break, shows that his physical body weakness isn't a lot.
But still, compare Eneru's strength to other logia types... he's a puppy.
I understand what Ubig is saying but Ener's bones did NOT shatter from taking Luffy's blows, yet Ener was KO'd when he came into contact from luffy's attacks.^^
But still, compare Eneru's strength to other logia types… he's a puppy.
I understand what Ubig is saying but Ener's bones did NOT shatter from taking Luffy's blows, yet Ener was KO'd when he came into contact from luffy's attacks.
Yeah… but Eneru's bones weren't shattered against Luffy either.
But again, it doesn't argue with the fact that Eneru is a weakling in general strength compared to other logias. It's because he relies too much on his ability... unlike Ace or BB.
EDIT: WTF at quoting XD.
No Logia opponent's bones were shattered by Luffy's attacks. Ener relying on his devil fruit made him physically weak.^^^
@$abZ:
Phenomenol… he only died.
Sabz don't take this as an insult, I laughed my head of when I read this hahahaha
What's worse than dying?
Sabz don't take this as an insult, I laughed my head of when I read this hahahaha
What's worse than dying?
I didn't mean it like you think. I didn't mean it as in "is that all" I meant it as in "He only died, nothing else".
What's worse than dying?
Lots of thing.
Do you want a list?
Am I really reading that Enel died??? by died, do you mean was knocked unconscious? b/c dying is dying, and the only person to return from the dead so far is Brooke to my knowledge…
WARNING (Explicit Dialog)!!
Am I really reading that Enel died??? by died, do you mean was knocked unconscious? b/c dying is dying, and the only person to return from the dead so far is Brooke to my knowledge…
People die for a few seconds and come to life. Eneru used his logia ability to restart his heart using electricity. Somehow… when he was dead. I don't remember that too well.
@AD-HD:
Lots of thing.
Do you want a list?
Yeah add reading your posts to the list.
Wasn't Enel from a warrior tribe in the first place? I seem to remember Blika being an island of strong people, but I could be mistaken. Either way, considering the guy's build, and fighting ability (we have seen him bust out some physical attacks without using his powers, remember?), I wouldn't call him weak. Spoiled rotten by his powers, sure, but not weak. Then, you gotta factor in all the resilience he's shown that Ubiq has mentioned.
What's worse than dying?
Not being able to die for starters: [http://www.antiquark.com/2005/07/quantum-immortality.html](http://www.antiquark.com/2005/07/quantum-immortality.html (don't) (don't follow this link if you don't wanna keep days thinking about something really scary that probably isn't true anyway)
@VL7:
Not being able to die for starters: [http://www.antiquark.com/2005/07/quantum-immortality.html](http://www.antiquark.com/2005/07/quantum-immortality.html (don't) (don't follow this link if you don't wanna keep days thinking about something really scary that probably isn't true anyway)
Well if we're going to start talking about crazy stuff how about HELL, that has to be the worst possible scenarios.
Yeah add reading your posts to the list.
Lets see.
1. To see someone in your family getting killed.
2. Torturing.
3. To see someone in you family getting tortured.
4. To be only human being in this planet.
Those for start.
@AD-HD:
Lets see.
1. To see someone in your family getting killed.
2. Torturing.
3. To see someone in you family getting tortured.
4. To be only human being in this planet.Those for start.
What!!
AD HD have you died before?
How would you know?
AD HD have you died before?
How would you know?
That is just my personal opinion, you dumbass.
Back to topic, please.
It might be fun to die, you won't know until you do, and suicide shows that alot of people prefer death to life anyway. This has gone off-topic though.
@AD-HD:
That is just my personal opinion, you dumbass.
Hey no need to flame, all I did was ask you a question, your making us all look bad you know, Next time say IMO.
Gain some composure.
Well back on topic, I think if you lose to a logia user your weaker then the user.
If you lose to someone, then of course they're stronger than you.
@Impel:
If you lose to someone, then of course they're stronger than you.
Not always, as it depends on weaknesses. Some characters are strong in certain ways that may have draw backs. That doesn't make them weaker overall, just susceptible to certain people.
Logia have core weaknesses, but in essence they'll always be one of the strongest characters in one piece no matter who beats them. If you pitted Enel agains Lucci, Enel would likely do quite well and maybe even win, despite getting his ass handed to him by Luffy.
Lucci would probably get some rubber on him halfway through and whoop his ass.
@Impel:
If you lose to someone, then of course they're stronger than you.
no it does not mean that when u are figthing a logia….do you really think that enelu was stronger than zoro when they met? Zoro and sanji could beat him pretty easily if it wasnt for his fruit.
@Impel:
Lucci would probably get some rubber on him halfway through and whoop his ass.
Lucci wouldnt need rubber to beat his ass. A logia can only turn into their elemnt when they see the attack coming. With luccis speed, I bet he would get a couple of good hits on Eneru since Eneru wouldnt be able to see when Luccis attacking ornot.
Also logias can be beaten by someone faster then them since they can only turn into their element when they see the attack coming. The only exception to this was Crocodile. The other logias such as Ace, Aokiji, Smoker, Eneru havent been able to do this.
Sure technically all the logias could train themselves to be like crocodile but considering that some of the strongest characters so far didnt, IMO achieving that ultimate dfense is harder than we think.
@ikillzu:
Lucci wouldnt need rubber to beat his ass. A logia can only turn into their elemnt when they see the attack coming. With luccis speed, I bet he would get a couple of good hits on Eneru since Eneru wouldnt be able to see when Luccis attacking ornot.
Also logias can be beaten by someone faster then them since they can only turn into their element when they see the attack coming. The only exception to this was Crocodile. The other logias such as Ace, Aokiji, Smoker, Eneru havent been able to do this.
Sure technically all the logias could train themselves to be like crocodile but considering that some of the strongest characters so far didnt, IMO achieving that ultimate dfense is harder than we think.
Actually, Ace and Smoker seem to be the only Logias thus far not trained to bypass damage like all the other Logias. Enel was only hurt physically by Luffy's rubber body, and when Wiper held him down with Seastone. Aokiji was never even damaged.
Lucci would be hopeless against Enel, as would anyone lacking a supply of Seastone or rubber. That's the way it is with trained logias (except Blackbeard). Hell, attacking Enel would not only be useless against him, but would probably hurt the attacker (i.e. what happened to Kamakiri).
.Lucci would be hopeless against Enel, as would anyone lacking a supply of Seastone or rubber. That's the way it is with trained logias (except Blackbeard). Hell, attacking Enel would not only be useless against him, but would probably hurt the attacker (i.e. what happened to Kamakiri).
Their are PLENTY of crazier guys in the seas…....Ener would get his @#$$& kicked.
vegetarian luffy