Politics in OP a….bad thing?

[Greg]

Recently I've seen some arguments praising OP over other series because of the fact that it covers real world political ideas/debacles in a comic book story.

I am Oda's bitch but I have to say, what little 'real' themes that actually exist in the comic with respect to politics is so black and white simplistic that not only is it stupid, it's insulting.

"But Greg! The Government wants power just like in real life!"

Roses are red, violets are generally purple.

I changed a word from a typical poem that everyone and their uncle knows. Does that mean I deserve to become Poet Laureate? Oda took the most basic stereotypical idea of a 'corrupt' government and moved a few things around to make it fit in his story. Is that being a genius or just simplifying things? Well, I basically see it this way, the WG at this point represents the fact that OP is a bigger story. The chapter where they made their first appearance changed what OP was. Literally. Before it was about Luffy getting OP and fighting strong guys. But THAT was the first glimpse of the 'bigger picture' so to speak. The real story Oda wants to tell. So in that respect, I totally appreciate their existence.

On the other hand, praising him for adding real-life political intrigue? Come on folks. It's a plot device and compared to what manga that deal specifically with that kind of story can do, it's child's play.

Now, that isn't to say I think he's played all his cards. Not in the least. In fact, if the WG's ultimate goal is to have 'supreme power' I'll eat my shoe. Not to mention the fact that we haven't heard their side of the story yet (like a certain TV show) and as bad as they may look, for all we know they may be working towards a means to a better end. Maybe, maybe not.

But as far as "Government wants power and is bad m'kay" pass. Not Oda's strong point.

[joekido the Second]

Okay. Sometimes political talk in One Piece drives me crazy and I normally stay away from these arguments.

[VL7]

I think he just took some stuff from history, I think he likes doing that. And yeah, he did simplify stuff, but it is a manga that kids should understand after all.

On the other hand, we see the story from a very slim perspective. We know nothing of the backstory that Oda doesn't want to show, so maybe things will get a little more colorful when we find out the reasons behind everything.

[Zulen]

Yeah, I could care less about the government in One Piece. I leave that shit to Zephos, "Fire Fist" Ace, Aldrich, and the like.

I plan to get out of the series what Luffy gets out of the series. That's all I need to do.

When I watch One Piece, I could care less about Shanks and Whitebeard. I would care less about Ace and Blackbeard. I could care less about Buggy and his adventures.

I watch Luffy on his quest and only Luffy, and if he never solves secrets himself, well, than I won't either.

[Ubiq]

The primary goal of the World Government isn't that they want power anyway, they already have that. Their primary goal is that they hang onto that power at any cost to their citizens.

The main thing that I think seperates One Piece from most other manga when it comes to the corruption of the primary government in that particular world is that, despite it's maliciousness and aforementioned corruption, the World Government is far and away the better than the most likely alternative: pirate dominated anarchy. Yeah, there's Dragon, but if he isn't capable of directly confronting the World Government, then there's no way in hell that he can take on the Golden Age of Piracy.

Sure, the World Government is evil, but it's also the only reason that anybody in the world can lead a relatively comfortable life that is free of piracy. Getting rid of it would have absolutely disastrous consequences for the average person unless the entire world is reformed.

[Greg]

The primary goal of the World Government isn't that they want power anyway, they already have that.

Do they? I mean they obviously are trying very hard to hold onto what they have and they've been aware of the threat to them for some time.

Are they looking for a way to gain absolute control?

Struggling to keep control?

We just don't know yet.

Sure, the World Government is evil

Is it?

I mean sure, fucks like Spandam are. But that's like saying there are no decent Marines. Until we know their goal/motivation we can't know.

"But Greg silly! They erased an island….twice!"

So they did. What exactly would drive them to do such a thing? To keep a secret? Yeah. Okay. Why? We don't know the extent of it but THIS is where I start to get pissed about real world stuff in OP.

As soon as it enters the "one life isn't equal to another" terrain of preaching to the choir (because no shit on that one) but then gets praise because of it. Come on. It's basically Middle School politics.

"Greg that makes sense. It's SHONEN Jump."

I agree. But that's why I feel a tiny whince of pain when OP gets praise for the, "amazing political representations and repurcussions Oda shares in his compelling comic."

Statements like that are the reason for the thread.

Ugh.

[dlo62282]

I agree with you somewhat Greg but it is not black and white like you think it is.

There are some good pirates. And there are bad pirates. There are some good marines. And there are some bad ones. We dont have 2 many grey characters but the marine or pirates as a whole doesnt mean good or bad.

[Greg]

@dlo62282:

I agree with you somewhat Greg but it is not black and white like you think it is.

There are some good pirates. And there are bad pirates. There are some good marines. And there are some bad ones. We dont have 2 many grey characters but the marine or pirates as a whole doesnt mean good or bad.

But um….that's exactly my point.

The problem is, a lot of people do see it that way and praise it for being so. And when I say people I don't mean any one person here, I mean in general.

[dlo62282]

I see what you mean now. I had to reread your first post again.

I agree. The jury is still out on the Wg. They have good things about them. They are not opressing anybody, most islands under them seem to be living happy.

What is the problem? They are just hiding something about the past. They dont want a weapon to come back because it could ruin things. They are fighting an army that is trying to take over the world.

I see mostly good from the WG. SOME of their methods are bad but for any goverment to be succesful it has to be cut throat at times. War is power.

[Rai]

It's hard to believe there are people who think OP is even political by the WG, to think the politics are bad.

From what you [or others] say, when Oda puts a force with their own justice and goal that currently reigns [sp?] over the world, he puts politics into the series? I don't get it. It's a force that's BOUND to be in every single series that actually wants a story to develop.
Hell, all they did was controlling what they control and the only political tactic that was made so far was putting that crappy wall between Shanks and WB.
First wait for them to actually do things that are political. For example, what Dragon is doing. That's a political rebellion, and we haven't seen the tiny shit of it yet. Overall, I don't think that OP is political, leave alone the WG. And even if it was, for that matter, it won't be bad or worsen the series. Oda's not the type to suddenly get political tactics, meetings or such and change the flow of the story.

If you understood what I wrote here, well, you need to learn English (<- didn't understand anything himself).

[FireFistAce 0]

Mmm…

I agree with you 100%, Greg. Quite frankly, One Piece IS in a significant state of unrealistic government. Oda doesn't understand politics and he would never make a good politician. But that's okay, that's not what One Piece is about.

The only thing that bothers me is his classification of the three great powers. From an outsider's standpoint, one would see the Shichibukai and the Marine HQ as the strongest two powers. The Yonkou have nowhere near the backing that the other two do simply from their affiliation with the World Government. If Oda actually made politics a big deal in the story, then he would understand that the Yonkou cannot hold a candle to the Marine HQ or even the Shichibukai, whose government support gives them a great edge over the so-called third world power.

Then again, this is a Shonen Manga. You can be dumb as a brick, but as long as you can cut giant ships in half and split the sky, you're considered powerful.

Needless to say, One Piece politics would NOT work in real life.

[o-chan]

You know Naruto also has a lot of politics involved with warring ninja countries and competing groups in power. It may not be as grand scale as it is in One Piece but it's there. I'm not trying to make this into a One Piece vs. Naruto debate because I like both shows but I'm showing it as an example that One Piece isn't the ONLY manga dealing with politics.

The difference is I think Kishimoto's writing always shifts focus away from the main characters almost to the point in Part 2 where I think the series gets bogged down in it's own take on dealing with it's own politics instead of focusing on the characters journey.

One Piece does shift it's focus too but it manages to not let the World Government politics overwhelm the series. It kinda does a "check in" with all the different characters and politics and gives us the information we need to know and moves on. The use of politics is pretty straightforward, and if there is any sensitivity it might come from people comparing and contrasting what goes on in the manga with current events in our world.
Truth is this type of stuff has always been in literature and comics (both Japanese and American) but we only become more sensitive to it when it seems to be reflected in society.

O-chan

[Ubiq]

@Greg:

Do they? I mean they obviously are trying very hard to hold onto what they have and they've been aware of the threat to them for some time.

On the whole, the World Government is the single strongest institution in the world. Sure, Piracy as a force is stronger, but its power is limited by internal strife and the fact that Piracy is not a united front.

After that, their next biggest challenger is the Revolutionary Army, whose members seem incredibly happy when they manage to overthrow a country located in the Blues. Based on that, it would seem that the Revolutionary Army is more of a potential threat to the World Government than an organization strong enough to defeat it just yet.

Are they looking for a way to gain absolute control?

Yes. The destruction of both Piracy and the Revolutionary Army would leave the World Government uncontested for control of the world.

Struggling to keep control?

Yes, but what government doesn't do that when they're in charge?

Is it?

I mean sure, fucks like Spandam are. But that's like saying there are no decent Marines. Until we know their goal/motivation we can't know.

Decent men can serve an evil cause. I doubt that it's general knowledge amongst the Marines what they're fighting for anyway. Look at how the Gorosei had Spandyne shoot Clover before he went too far to avoid Cipher Pol agents from merely hearing a name.

Besides, Spandam can be considered a better representation of the World Government than your average Marine. He was Administrator to one of the most important facilities in the world after all. The higher a person gets, the more likely they are to either be totally amoral in their service to the World Government or outright bastards. Sure, Aokiji is different from Sengoku or Akainu on that count, but he's also displayed a tendency to sit aside and let things happen that he knows are wrong without comment.

"But Greg silly! They erased an island….twice!"

So they did. What exactly would drive them to do such a thing? To keep a secret? Yeah. Okay. Why? We don't know the extent of it but THIS is where I start to get pissed about real world stuff in OP.

Well, apparently there's something about the formation of the World Government that the average citizen doesn't know. Further, it's something so completely adverse to the average citizen's concept of what the World Government is that many of them would completely and totally reject the World Government if they learned it.

At least some members of the World Government are aware of what this is; so it's a government founded in a lie that will kill to maintain their version of the story.

I agree. But that's why I feel a tiny whince of pain when OP gets praise for the, "amazing political representations and repurcussions Oda shares in his compelling comic."

Statements like that are the reason for the thread.

Ugh.

Where did that come from?

I don't know that it's 'amazing', but I do think that it's fairly realistic that a government in its position should act the way it does. Now, if somebody says that Oda is making a comment about the real world in his depiction of the World Government, I don't think that's the case.

[bevin]

In a world as detailed as this one, and given that the main characters are wanted criminals, I'd say that dealing with "politics" is pretty much inevitable, unless you wanted a much more superficial story. And I agree with your point that we don't know the ultimate goal of the WG at this point, it could be that they have very good reasons for doing what they're doing. We don't know and it's a bit unfair to judge just yet, especially considering how very little screentime (as it were) that stuff gets. Do I think political statements make a better story? No. But I also don't think the minor ones in this story are anything to get worked up over, either, at least so far.

[blueblip]

One Piece politics is interesting…but ONLY for the shounen manga it is. As you say Greg, there isn't any real world type politiking going on in the manga at all eg. the WG doesn't implement sanctions on say, Wapol's country for his brutal tyranny etc etc. There is no real relation shown between islands such as we have heard nothing of trade between Drum and Alabasta. Both islands (all islands for that matter) seem completely idependent of each other. The WG seems to exist for the sole sake of being an anti-piracy body, and to allow 5 old sods to pop up at the end of an arc and say, "ZOMG Luffy is uber! INCREASE BOUNTY!!" (the Gorousei have never mentioned Dragon and his group even once). They are interesting in the sense that they are not wholly evil, which is different for a shounen manga because anyone aligned against the hero is usually billed as a villain.

With that said, there is the issue of good ol' Croc. He was probably the only person in the whole of OP to use politics as a weapon to any degree. And that's part of what makes him so interesting. He didn't just go around kicking people's ass with his mastered DF abilities. He used his DF to get people to love him and masterminded events so deliciously he sent the country into a brutal civil war. I have yet to see any other shounen character (OP ones included) do something like that. Compared to him, the WG is like a high school student government.

So, no, there is no 'amazing' politics being played in OP (minus Croc, but he was limited to his own ambitions so it doesn't really count). Good thread topic though.

[Angel emfrbl]

Bounties and things like that are pretty much real life. Some pirates in the old days DID get large bounties… But not many. They roamed around the oceans, pretty much things were like how they are in One Piece. They got aweay with it because of the setting of the day.

Even now you have pirates (in the past year a ocean liner got attacked by some off the coast of Africa I seem to recall).

The only difference in One Piece is the scale of the pirates. They are so many the Marines have their hands full. The New World is most likely full of various islands a ship (no matter what the size) can disappear into to escape capture. Pretty much simulair to real life at that point. Only difference in the case of the Yonkou is the sheer power they have at their command.

The shichibukai, they are based on real life privateers. Ago nothing much there, England + France hired privateers once to raid Spanish ships several centuries back. No problems there. Until the privateers got greedy and attacked their own ships causing the countries to ban them.

The WG is busy with Dragon and his group of revolutionaries, CP9 just got clobbered. With increasing pirate numbers (criminals to them) causing trouble in the world, they, they marines and everyone else has other things on their minds. Theres the Poneglyphs + that blank century + ancient weaps too. And we have yet to see what happens if a country is discovered harbouring/aiding pirates like Alabasta did with the SHs after Croc's defeat.

The politics are more complex the deeper your prepared to look into things. True its not close to real life, but in real life you don't have the WG. You have many who don't want to talk to each other... the closet thing to the WG is the UN, but they don't control the world, only bring the world together.

[Bounty1Berry]

I think the entire politics issue could throw wildly on what the void century is eventually deciphered as.

If it turns out the WG is legitimately trying to keep a secret which could lead to catastrophic loss of lives or stability, it's one thing.

If it's a matter of attempting to hide the crimes responsible in their creation, it's another.

And if it turns out to be a third, insignificant thing which has become sacred and feared through 800 years of ritual, it's a third thing.

I feel all three are plausible at this point. We're probably expecting No. 2. No. 1 would make them remarkably noble for villians. No. 3 would be an interesting social commentary (look at how our own history is distorted)

[Gizmo]

Well I think its #1 Bounty1Berry, but a lot of corrupted people like Spandam snuck into the World Government and made it into a horrible figure.

Pirates so far have been about living a fun adventure without abiding by the law, but the government doesn't want that. They want order and "justice".

I think that if the Void Century talks about pirates owning everything and them doing things there way was okay yadda yadda yadda, it would corrupt the world and make everyone turn into pirates, and thats also what they're trying to hide. That's what i believe.

But some people are trying to hide the corrupt people that ended the era a long time ago or something or other like that as well…so its all not black and white.

As to answer the question, I can't wait to hear the side of the story the WG and see what they have to say

[Ubiq]

@Bounty1Berry:

If it turns out the WG is legitimately trying to keep a secret which could lead to catastrophic loss of lives or stability, it's one thing.

If it's a matter of attempting to hide the crimes responsible in their creation, it's another.

The thing is that it could easily be both.

Anything that destablizes the World Government would have grim consequences for Joe Average in the Odaverse. On the other hand, the World Government is fairly corrupt and definitely paranoid, so their gaining absolute control wouldn't be desirable either.

It's largely up to what Dragon wants to accomplish by overthrowing the World Government. Even then, that really requires that Piracy put its house into order or at least have somebody capable of bashing enough heads to keep everybody in line. Namely, a Pirate King. Until then, the World Government being destroyed would only benefit pirates by removing their primary obstacle in the form of the Navy.

As it stands right now and as bleak as the prospect is, the best option for the average world citizen would probably have been for Crocodile to find Pluton and conquer the world with it. Sure, you've switched the World Government for King Crocodile the First, but everybody would have either had to accept his control or die.

[Impel Down]

Oda's WG IS kinda a super-pessimistic view of the American gov and maybe the Japanese gov too. But I don't think they're in any way related.

[Greg]

But that's okay, that's not what One Piece is about.

Prize to Fire Fist.

Yes. The destruction of both Piracy and the Revolutionary Army would leave the World Government uncontested for control of the world.

Would it? What if One Piece is somehow related to this kind of power? What if they control OP? If it's not something that can be controlled, do they at least possess it? Do they want to control/possess it? Does it even have any relation whatsoever? Are they even the real enemies?

There are just way too many questions at this point and trying to tie up ends that haven't even been introduced is outside my jurisdiction of sucking up the facts on paper.

Where did that come from?

Admitting that was paraphrased, somewhere close.

Oda's WG IS kinda a super-pessimistic view of the American gov and maybe the Japanese gov too.

Okay. This right here. TOTALLY do not mean to call you out/make an example but this is what I mean.

What facts back that opinion up? I'm asking seriously not sarcastically because every possible angle I come up with in my [very] limited imagination comes up as the same kind of crap you find anywhere and in any villain not to mention the same minor problems you'll find in any country/civilization on the map. It's like the Looney Toons version of government.

[FireFistAce 0]

The biggest thing I don't understand is the widespread incorporation of Den Den Mushi, or rather, lack thereof. As we saw in the Ohara flashback, Den Den Mushi have been around for a significant period of time. If this is said case, you'd think that every island would have one. When the telegraph was invented in the 1840's, within a mere 20 years, We had Telegraph wire EVERYWHERE, including an entire cable strung across the Atlantic. The World was revolutionized in a way that was not matched until the invention of the Radio.

So where are the Den Den Mushi? Why isn't the One Piece World in better communication? And what do the Yonkou have in terms of politics to put them on the level of the other two Great powers, which are backed by the WORLD Government?

[*Meh*]

Personally, I like the way 'politics' is handled currently in OP. The theme of man vs. world is established, but instead of 'Luffy, the innocent, wide-eyed manchild on a quest to become Pirate King and have fun must face the challenge of the puppy-killing, fun-hating, Hitler-worshipping World Gov't.!!!!!' we get 'Luffy, the potentially dangerous, wide-eyed manchild on a quest to become Pirate King and have fun must face the challenge of the mysterious, morally unclear, and above all underscripted World Gov't. yeah.'

If, as Robin's flashback implies, the 'True History' is a threat to the stability or integrity of the World Gov't., And If Robin still intends to discover the 'True History' And If she succeeds before the conclusion of One Piece, Then the 'True History' is probably of central importance to the story. But that's three 'Ifs' and only one of them has been (somewhat) confirmed. For all we know, the name of the Ancient Kingdom the Gorousei were so intent to keep unsaid was an obscenity, and they just have very delicate sensibilities. But this is terribly off-topic…

Anyway, the politics in OP are fairly non-existant, since talk is the antithesis of an action-oriented comic. Until we get a two page spread of Garp, Coby, and Helmeppo watching from the wings as representatives of all 170+ WG Member-States have a conference--complete with a DON!--'Politics in OP' will remain, to me, an oxymoron.

[Ubiq]

@Greg:

Would it?

Well, if they're gone, then who is left?

A third party? Like who?

Say that the World Government resurrects Pluton and sics it on the Yonkou. If Pluton is all that people say it is, then the Navy + Pluton should be capable of dealing with then. Once those four are out of the way, then they can start focusing on other pirates.

Sooner or later, the World Government is going to start eyeballing the Shichibukai; we know Sengoku hates their guts and I can't see the Navy tolerating their presence a minute past the time that they stop being useful.

What if One Piece is somehow related to this kind of power? What if they control OP? If it's not something that can be controlled, do they at least possess it?

Uh… if the pirates are wiped out along with Dragon's Revolutionary Army, then that really cuts down on the list of people who will be looking for the One Piece. The World Government can afford to spend resources hunting it that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Anyway, isn't this notion of One Piece's power operating on the assumption that One Piece isn't just the sum collection of Roger's voyages? Honestly, I don't see why it has to be anything more than ungodly amounts of wealth with a few knick-knacks thrown in that would be of interest to the various crew members like Robin. Of course, that's assuming that Roger's treasure wasn't the straw hat that he left on Shanks' head when the kid first came on board his ship.

Anyway, I'm guessing that they don't possess it; if it were money, then it's been spent decades ago. If it were something more, then they would have used it against piracy already.

Of course, there's always the chance that they did find One Piece and that's what led them to Ohara, but it'd be a bleak ending if the Straw Hats arrive at Raftel to find nothing there or that the World Government beat them to it more than twenty years ago.

Do they want to control/possess it?

Why wouldn't they? If nothing else, it's the Holy Grail of Piracy and the One Piece being under their control would take away the chance of some pirate finding it and proclaiming himself Pirate King.

Does it even have any relation whatsoever?

I can't imagine the World Government not having a dog in the race where One Piece is concerned. If nothing else, his wealth likely came at the expense of its citizens.

Are they even the real enemies?

My guess is that they're going to function as a deus ex machina to put Teach where he needs to be at the time he needs to be there. I doubt it as a result. Hard to tell with Oda though; for instance, for all we know, Lafitte might be a Rokushiki user and the only reason Oda introduced the concept in the last arc was so that we'd be familiar with it by the time he gets ready to build up Teach's people into threats.

Admitting that was paraphrased, somewhere close.

I was curious because the particular wording sounds like something that Terek would come out with.

I've said before that I like the depiction of it as I think that a government in its position with its resources, but I don't know if I'd call that a selling point of the series for people other than myself. I usually show people action sequences or something like Arlong's conversation with Bellemere if I want to show people what it's like.

@Fire Fist:

So where are the Den Den Mushi? Why isn't the One Piece World in better communication? And what do the Yonkou have in terms of politics to put them on the level of the other two Great powers, which are backed by the WORLD Government?

Well, we've seen Den Den Mushi in the hands of the following:

The World Government and its various institutions
Baroque Works
The Yonkou

Outside of that, we haven't seen many of them that I can recall.

Considering the list of the above, it's likely that the World Government clamps down on the supply and only the exceedingly wealthy and powerful have access to them outside of that organization. That lets the World Government control the easy flow of information throughout the world.

I suspect that the World Government has a similar policy towards national navies and that the only large maritime organization permitted by law in the Odaverse is the Navy. This would make the various members dependent on Mariejoa for protection and would hamper their ability to make war on each other.

[Taleran]

@Greg:

In fact, if the WG's ultimate goal is to have 'supreme power' I'll eat my shoe.

saved, just in case

[Captain Shmeckie]

I agree with alot of what folks have been saying here, so I'll avoid being redundant. However, I will say that I don't think there's any references to real politics in the WG. Oda himself has stated One Piece "isn't that deep". Frankly, I think all the comparisons started after the flag burning scene in Enies Lobby.

[Mumbo]

I'm not going to get deep into the political structure of One Piece or lack thereof and whatnot. I just find it interesting how the Gorousei seem to look like the permanent Security Council members of the UN:

http://groups.msn.com/OnePieceManga/onepiecechapter233.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=4507

From left to right: United States, China, Russia, Britain, France

[Greg]

Well, if they're gone, then who is left?

A third party? Like who?

Say that the World Government resurrects Pluton and sics it on the Yonkou. If Pluton is all that people say it is, then the Navy + Pluton should be capable of dealing with then. Once those four are out of the way, then they can start focusing on other pirates.

Sooner or later, the World Government is going to start eyeballing the Shichibukai; we know Sengoku hates their guts and I can't see the Navy tolerating their presence a minute past the time that they stop being useful.

I mean, are they really seeking that kind of control?

Uh… if the pirates are wiped out along with Dragon's Revolutionary Army, then that really cuts down on the list of people who will be looking for the One Piece. The World Government can afford to spend resources hunting it that they wouldn't have otherwise.

Anyway, isn't this notion of One Piece's power operating on the assumption that One Piece isn't just the sum collection of Roger's voyages? Honestly, I don't see why it has to be anything more than ungodly amounts of wealth with a few knick-knacks thrown in that would be of interest to the various crew members like Robin. Of course, that's assuming that Roger's treasure wasn't the straw hat that he left on Shanks' head when the kid first came on board his ship.

Anyway, I'm guessing that they don't possess it; if it were money, then it's been spent decades ago. If it were something more, then they would have used it against piracy already.

Of course, there's always the chance that they did find One Piece and that's what led them to Ohara, but it'd be a bleak ending if the Straw Hats arrive at Raftel to find nothing there or that the World Government beat them to it more than twenty years ago.

Since we don't know whether or not they have it or not, how can we know the proposed ending. I mean….we don't even know if it (if it is an "it") is physically at Raftel. It could well be below, above or any clever variation. Raftel may very well be the beginning of the end. Again, no evidence as to such, just offering ideas.

Why wouldn't they? If nothing else, it's the Holy Grail of Piracy and the One Piece being under their control would take away the chance of some pirate finding it and proclaiming himself Pirate King.

How do we know they don't already have it? I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. We can come up with theories but they're simply that.

I can't imagine the World Government not having a dog in the race where One Piece is concerned. If nothing else, his wealth likely came at the expense of its citizens.

Neither can I, but I'm not the author. Someone who's job is to exceed our 'imagination'.

[Bounty1Berry]

If the WG had One Piece, they'd immediately trumpet it so they could say "It's all over, no point looking, go home, nothing more to see here". It would remove ONE reason people are going into piracy.

[Greg]

If the WG had One Piece, they'd immediately trumpet it so they could say "It's all over, no point looking, go home, nothing more to see here".

They might. Or they might not. Consider that there are essentially two kinds of piracy. Piracy for piracy sake (ie. Bellamy etc.) and then there are people like the Four Emperors whose motivation we certainly aren't clear on but needless to say, people with that kind of power aren't likely to be swayed by any statement the government makes.

But, this isn't about discussing the story.

It's about whether or not Oda deserves praise for incorporating such 'deep' themes as a corrupt government.

[Le Lawliet]

Now, I don't think it's deep, per se. I mean I personally think it's pretty well thought out, but it also has this feeling that it's not the point of the story.

[Bounty1Berry]

It's about whether or not Oda deserves praise for incorporating such 'deep' themes as a corrupt government.

As for Oda's expression, I rather like the fact that the government can act seperately from its individuals and vice versa. That right there is a fairly sophisticated concept for a force that begs by its very nature (a military) to be rendered faceless.

[Ubiq]

@Greg:

I mean, are they really seeking that kind of control?

Why wouldn't they be?

If they can pull off the trick of getting rid of piracy and revolutionaries, then the general standard of living for their citizens would increase drastically.

Sure, they're paranoid bastards, but they're not capriciously evil like your stereotypically evil government. So long as you obey their laws and don't ask too many questions, life wouldn't be so bad under them.

Strictly speaking, the World Government is probably made up mostly of people who are "evil" because they're antagonists rather than evil because of their actions. There are certainly many honorable Marines and there are bound to be plenty of honorable men in the World Government itself.

The problem is the lie that is at the center of the World Government. An entire organization based on a falsehood is eventually going to suffer from that falsehood regardless of any other qualities it may possess.

Since we don't know whether or not they have it or not, how can we know the proposed ending. I mean….we don't even know if it (if it is an "it") is physically at Raftel. It could well be below, above or any clever variation. Raftel may very well be the beginning of the end. Again, no evidence as to such, just offering ideas.

Considering that Raftel has long been established as the final island on the Grand Line, it would be a "what the hell?" moment of the highest order if it turned out that there was anything beyond it.

Say that they get there and it isn't there. That means one of two things:

• Luffy has to turn around and go back the way he came, retracing and likely rehashing the preceding storyline.
• That the treasure has long since been gone, which would seriously damage Luffy's dream of becoming Pirate King.

Does Oda really seem like the type of author to deliver such a devastating setback to his main character at the moment of triumph?

It would be one hell of a downer for Luffy to show up at Raftel and not have anything there to justify the various battles and tribulations he's suffered to get there even if it's just something that represents his voyage metaphorically.

I just don't think Oda has it in him to do that to Luffy.

How do we know they don't already have it? I'm just playing Devil's Advocate. We can come up with theories but they're simply that.

There's no real reason for them to not have announced it. The World Government finding the One Piece would be a much needed propaganda moment in an era where successes by the World Government seem to be sorely lacking.

If nothing else, it would have provided a perfect end to the legend of Gold Roger.

Neither can I, but I'm not the author. Someone who's job is to exceed our 'imagination'.

Is it his job to exceed our imagination or to deliver a good story? That's aren't mutally inclusive terms; they can coincide, but one does not require or guarantee the other.

[Greg]

Why wouldn't they be?

Not something I can answer for I am not Oda. All I know is, it isn't written in stone yet so it's fair game.

Say that they get there and it isn't there. That means one of two things:

Well, again, you're taking it literally. Maybe there's something physically connected to Raftel. Maybe something above or below. Again, I'm not willing to limit myself to possibilities only I could come up with.

If nothing else, it would have provided a perfect end to the legend of Gold Roger.

I believe I mentioned somewhere that that's great for the piss-ant pirates which Smoker or any other Marines could take out in a flash….but what good would it do for the real contenders who seem to know what's up.

Is it his job to exceed our imagination or to deliver a good story?

Most certainly both. But since we all have fantastic 'imaginations', I think it goes to say that exceeding them would generally be a good thing.

'Pulling shit out of his ass' would not.

But again, not a discussion on where he's headed with the story.

[Kuzan]

Here I'm hoping that the politics are not so simple and there is an economic plot to it driven by the gorousei via a central bank authority. 1 beri = 10,000 extol which suggest deflation in the blue seas, meaning someone is limiting the supply of money by amassing incredible quantities of it, and that would be what Dragon is reforming, he is giving every island the power to issue it's own money and regulate interest rates and new issuance of fiat money. But oh well the exchange rate was probably a device plot so that the inmigration tax would appear higher to the gullible strawhats so it won't happen. Note that this is a serious problem is Japan and they can do nothing because the Bank of Japan has independence from the government (it works as a private company), see this article if you are VERY interested:

Of course, in hopes of preventing such pressure, the Bank of Japan offers several incorrect arguments as to why they should not stop deflation, why they cannot stop deflation, or why they would cause harm by creating inflation. All of these are easily disproved, and their arguments should be challenged.

Btw, this article is partially bullshit but it doesn't matter, it could be what Oda is thinking… Probably not. My 200 extol.

[Impel Down]

That's a good point about the increase of the yen.

[Greg]

Yeah, although not likely, still somewhere in the realm of possbility.

But again…this is not about where the story is headed.

[Pipboy]

One thing that needs to be considered is that this is a world of superhumans and the standard rules of power correlating to technology and economic base are out the window. In a world of what basically amounts to demigods and one in which apotheosis is merely a snack away for any upwardly mobile and motivated man such a percarious balance of power and political situation isn't all that untenable.

In our world people don't strike out on their own as pirates because you A. incredibly unlikely to succede in any grand fashion but B. You are also no matter how successful only 9mm away from death and dethroning at the hands of a 4 year old whose daddy forgot to lock his gun safe.

In OP where each human being is quite literally a untapped weapon of mass destruction and there are individuals that can lay waste to large swaths of the land on a whim and whom have literally NO FEAR of conventional weapons and the tiny men that wield them you have a very different geopolitical landscape.

The Idea that 4 men and their crews are the single most dangerous entity on the planet comprising such a threat that the WG has to literally spend 99% of its power (see the difference between Prin Prin and Garp) holding them on the latter half of the grand line and requiring the aid of privateers to help control them is not so far fetched.

Overall I think that Oda's handling of the WG is well done, it shows a great deal of compassion for the basic unit and shows that good intentions are at the root of much of the command structure (hina, Aokiji, Garp, Coby/Helmeppo, the captain who replaces Axe hand morgan. etc.) as well as the ideological foundation of the marine organization. It also shows that the WG has systemic corruption and questionable leadership.

All in all I think the geopolitics of OP while no exceptionally demonstrative or allegorical are at least fair and well wrought. Many of the more somber speeches hold some weight(no idealist can accomplish their goals without bloodshed), and the underlying themes of individual right never being eclipsed by expidience of the situation (see CP9 and an ordinary man) have deep function the introduction of the WG as a major enemy is a relentless result of the decision to have pirates be the main focus of the manga.

One literally cannot be a pirate without causing friction with the government and from a storytellers perspective there was no real avoiding making the WG out to antagonist and eventually enemies. Howerver the manner in which Oda did it, namely avoiding calling them the evil empire with rampant criminality and brutality like so many villian organizations past rendered. THey contain good men and bad, good policies and bad, corruption and pettyness as well as nobility and honor.

As to politics? Oda is good at making OP, which has morals ethics, lessons and yes… politics. I think Oda should keep making OP which is great....which ....contains....politics.

[Greg]

All in all I think the geopolitics of OP while no exceptionally demonstrative or allegorical are at least fair and well wrought.

I agree! I think for a comic book system of 'government', it works! I'll buy it! But again, when people hail Oda as a master for incorporating real-world issues into his comic…yeah, I dunno if that's precisely what he's aiming for.

I mean, one of my favorite recent SBS questions was that one about Franky Family's Yagra Bulls and whether or not they represented the 'strife against blah blah blah'. And Oda basically said, 'look, yeah I got the names from the Bible, but OP isn't that deep a story'.

[Gizmo]

I didn't want to make a new thread, so here's the theory.

For my school I was reading the story Caucasian Mummies Mystify Chinese. It's about how China found caucasian mummies in Xinjiang. This caused a kink in their history because their whole life was revolved around the fact that China was self reliant. They didn't want to accept the fact that their could be a possibility that they had help.

It'd be like finding out undenyable proof that God didn't exist. The impact of there being no God would be disasterous, reguardless of what God/gods you believe in. Without that, there's a probability that more chaos would occur.

This goes to my point about the World Government. The World Government is trying to hide "true history". The reason may be unclear, but its probably has to do with chaos. Whatever was in the history they're trying to hide, it's for the greater good. Whatever was in the history probably goes directly against a common belief of justice which would cause the world to do unjust practices and create total chaos in the world. So, the WG is for the best for everybody, or at least the greater of two evils.

[Bounty1Berry]

@Kuzan:

Here I'm hoping that the politics are not so simple and there is an economic plot to it driven by the gorousei via a central bank authority. 1 beri = 10,000 extol which suggest deflation in the blue seas, meaning someone is limiting the supply of money by amassing incredible quantities of it,

Why does it suggest deflation?

The currencies could simply be pegged to be different sizes.

Consider that back in the days of gold-backed currencies, the US $5 gold coin was similar in dimensions to the English pound and the Russian 10 roubles.

Conversely, Skypeia could have a terrible INFLATION problem of its own. Ener seems the type who'd print paper money and hand it out to please his supporters.

and that would be what Dragon is reforming, he is giving every island the power to issue it's own money and regulate interest rates and new issuance of fiat money.

Letting small city-states issue currency would be a recipe for disaster. A currency would be useless if people didn't know what it was supposed to look like or be worth. It would return to a situation similar to the US prior to the Civil War, where they actually printed newspaper columns about what privately-issued banknotes were still good and how much of a mark-down they had to pass at.

Of course, in hopes of preventing such pressure, the Bank of Japan offers several incorrect arguments as to why they should not stop deflation, why they cannot stop deflation, or why they would cause harm by creating inflation. All of these are easily disproved, and their arguments should be challenged.

IMO, the poorer you are, the better off you are in an inflationary economy. You have more of your assets (relatively) in tangible forms which preserve their value regardless of the currency, and you have a higher debt load, which is rapidly being rendered insigificant by the declining value of the money. Maybe they hope to keep the economy stagnant to preserve their own wealth.

[Admiral Wolfpox]

@Greg:

Recently I've seen some arguments praising OP over other series because of the fact that it covers real world political ideas/debacles in a comic book story.

I am Oda's bitch but I have to say, what little 'real' themes that actually exist in the comic with respect to politics is so black and white simplistic that not only is it stupid, it's insulting.

"But Greg! The Government wants power just like in real life!"

Roses are red, violets are generally purple.

I changed a word from a typical poem that everyone and their uncle knows. Does that mean I deserve to become Poet Laureate? Oda took the most basic stereotypical idea of a 'corrupt' government and moved a few things around to make it fit in his story. Is that being a genius or just simplifying things? Well, I basically see it this way, the WG at this point represents the fact that OP is a bigger story. The chapter where they made their first appearance changed what OP was. Literally. Before it was about Luffy getting OP and fighting strong guys. But THAT was the first glimpse of the 'bigger picture' so to speak. The real story Oda wants to tell. So in that respect, I totally appreciate their existence.

On the other hand, praising him for adding real-life political intrigue? Come on folks. It's a plot device and compared to what manga that deal specifically with that kind of story can do, it's child's play.

Now, that isn't to say I think he's played all his cards. Not in the least. In fact, if the WG's ultimate goal is to have 'supreme power' I'll eat my shoe. Not to mention the fact that we haven't heard their side of the story yet (like a certain TV show) and as bad as they may look, for all we know they may be working towards a means to a better end. Maybe, maybe not.

You have just re-ignited my love for the politics in One Piece with your criticisms! The Gorousei… the 100 years blank history... the CP9 and the Buster Call... ahhh yes, I love you all.

When I read One Piece I share in Oda's idealism; I follow right along with it, not because it's accurate to real life, necessarily, but because it feels good. Secrecy, control and oppression all exist in real life, and they are justified with propaganda. The fact that the dreamy Ancient Kingdom was destroyed by a corrupt group may not be "realistic" historically speaking, but it is true to life in spirit. Any time that there is freedom and prosperity, it becomes a threat to the controlling powers.

And if you haven't noticed, One Piece is a very idealized and exaggerated world, with over-the-top characters and "pure" themes. I love the politics in One Piece, and especially the Gorousei. The way that the marines talk about "Justice", but really all they want is control; the way that the World Government must shroud itself and hide the blank history... it's all true to life.

Oda's usage of anti-government themes resonate with me, and I absolutely admire the fact that he is -- seemingly -- trying to send a message with his work. I don't give him credit for being "realistic" or just because he put politics in it, but because he is delivering a great message with it.

[Captain Shmeckie]

Again, I think you're giving him way too much credit. He's said it time and again; One Piece isn't that deep. He's not trying to send a message, he's just trying to make a fun story with fun characters.

Again, I think the vast majority of comparison to real governments and the World Government in One Piece was mostly sparked by the flag burning scene. Other factors, sure, but that was the clincher, I'll bet.

[nihilism]

as a conspiracy buff, the politics of OP made me a huge fan. i think oda is into this too. like how the illuminati want to turn the world into a 'new world order' and have the planet under there thumb. theyll promote propaganda and supress information [ie fox news] or burn books and intellectual movements like ohara… or start wars and engineer problems [theyll engineer a problem .. and engineer a reaction to get the solution they wanted in the first place]. in fact, i think it will be revealed that the WG in OP designed a catastrophe to engineer a world order where they could take over the planet in the ensuing chaos.. i think oda is aware of this.. and he is fighting back against it with his art. no wonder fox in america debuted on foxkids and they tried to run the show into the ground.. haha.. everything else on that line up it pure unadulterated bullshit propaganda. this might sound a little greek to you.. but how oda handles this topics is why i love him.
viva OP, be mugawara.. fight the new world order :D.. haha

[Admiral Wolfpox]

Sing it, nihilism!!

And Captain Shmeckie, do you really believe that One Piece isn't that deep? He obviously has done lots of research on history, pirates, different civilizations, and legends. The more I read One Piece the more convinced I am that the whole "it's just a fun ride" spiel is just a cover to prevent the non-politcal/philosophical from getting intimidated.

Arrrgh, me matey.

[gaara d. lucci]

@Captain:

Again, I think you're giving him way too much credit. He's said it time and again; One Piece isn't that deep. He's not trying to send a message, he's just trying to make a fun story with fun characters.

Again, I think the vast majority of comparison to real governments and the World Government in One Piece was mostly sparked by the flag burning scene. Other factors, sure, but that was the clincher, I'll bet.

I agree completely with this post. The fact that Oda said it himself, should make this non-negotionable.

[boiga]

Well, while I do agree that Oda avoided mimicking and real world institutions in his description of the WG, we should remember that the world governent isn't the only poilitical institution seen in the Odaverse.

We have:

Drum island: Cruel self serving king oppressing the people who has a well meaning subordinate that considers himself powerless to put in end to the tyranny.

Alubasta: Benevolent King and princess whose reign is being undermined by power hungry secret society planning for world conqest. This leads to a misguided revolutionary movement to put an end to the supposed injustices of the King.

These two are contradictory if generalized. One says that monarchy is bad because egomaniacal heirs can terrorize the country with out redress. The second says that monarchy is good when the ruler remembers that he is a servant of the people. Both are fairly standard manga images of royalty with only some minor intrigue around the power of outside forces (blackbeard, croc) on the future of nations.

The only place in one piece that is a blatantly bastardized newspaper headline is in skypiea.

In Skypiea we have a wealthy god fearing people keeping control of the "Holy Land" away from a dark skinned warrior race who use terrorism to further end and were the original inhabitants of the "Holy Land"

This is a fairly obvious take on the Isreal/Palestinian conflict. I'm not sure many would give Oda credit for his analysis of the situation or his proposed resolution :have the Isrealis invite the palestinians back to their old territory and have a party in renewed friendship after defeating a common foe. But it is and example of Oda taking a complex real world political situation and dumbing it down so that middle schoolers can relate to it.

In regards to the WG, I think Oda's take on it does show added maturity when compared to the great conflicts in other manga. There are shades of grey among every party involved OP world politics. Teaching kids about this kind of moral relativism early does prepare them to better understand real world conflicts as they get older. Having people like Smoker and Spandam be part of the same institution teaches that you can have both righteous and sadistic individuals or causes as part of the same political institution. This is a real world truth that Oda is teaching in a way that is easy to understand.

He should get some credit for that.