Some of the best discussions in the past have been off-topic chapter discussions though ^_^
Chapter 502 "The Tenryuubito's Incident" Discussion
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So I'm with the Yonkou = Marines Headquarters = Shichibukai, Thats my views on this.
S
T
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You're the epitome of fucking ignorance. Three people already told you, dipstick.
3 Admirals, 7 Shichibukai, Vice admirals, Sengoku and his superiors…AGAINST FOUR.
Next time, read the freakin manga...no, next time gtfo the forums.
Ofcourse, thats too much for your miniscule, insignificant brain to comprehend, isn't it, OH GLORIOUS WORLD WONDER? Yep, it sure is a wonder how someone like you can even type.SHICHIBUKAI AND WG.
SHICHIBUKAI AND WG.
SHICHIBUKAI AND WG.Mister miracle of ignorance, if they have the same power, why would the WG need the Shichibukai?
Or any of Cypher Pol?
ALTOGETHER WITH THE MARINES, WG, CYPHER POL AND SHICHIBUKAI THEY ARE EQUAL TO THE YONKOU.
I'm done playing with retards for now.sighs
This time, I'm not apologizing for the profanity. -
World Government = SCBKs = Yonkou
Why the SCBKs work for WG ?- Because they will have a legal license to be a pirate, which mean they can do things without marine on their back.
Why the Government give pirate a SCBKs license? - Because the SCBKs bring them profit
Why the WG and the SCBKs not team up on Yonkou ? - Because if one of the three power gone, one of them will be in danger. If the Yonkou gone, there are only two power left. Government and SCBKs. The government will attack SCBKs because they hate pirate. They want to control the whole world. On the other hand, the SCBKs will attack the Government for the same reason. The reason that they not attack each other is because there is a third side. If the Government attacks the SCBKs, then the SCBKs might team up with the Yonkou.
Why the SCBKs and the Yonkou not team up on the WG ? After all, they have a common enemy.
If the WG gone, SCBKs and Yonkou will fight for power.7 SCBKs vs. 4 Yonkou. They might not agree to team up, that mean one Yonkou would easily take out one SCBKs. They do not want that. For the Yonkou, seven SCBKs would easily take one out.
=> WG = 4 Yonkou
=> WG >>> 1 Yonkou
=> There is no need to call 3 Admiral to deal with WhiteBerd.
=> There is an Admiral for LuffyOn the other hand, Luffy will not meet an admiral because Rooky < Yonkou, and deal with Yonkou is more important. The Government might go all out for Whiteberd and call 3 Admirals is because they want to make it quick and easy.
- Because they will have a legal license to be a pirate, which mean they can do things without marine on their back.
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Well in keeping with the off topicness, I do recall it being said that the 7,wg, and 4 BALANCE each other. I've always taken it to mean this and I didn't know ppl thought otherwise.
It all comes down to the 7. Since wg and 4 are enemies, the 7 provide most of the balance. The 7 would stop the wg if they tried to do something outrageous like nuke the gl. They would stop them by threating to allign with 4 or something similiar. The 7 balance with 4 by just being powerful enough to help the wg stop to 4 from trying to overthrow wg. This is the balance between the 3.
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It's nice, but completely off-topic
yeah iam also that opinion…
cmon don
t talk deep into OP...just say "hell yeah"...or "hell no" to that chapterConflicting groups doesn't mean that they are fighting each other. As a matter of fact both are to a degree on the WG's side. While the Marines work for them WG's as military force the Shichibukai do it as acknowledge pirates. The Shichibukai are supposed to take down other pirates and give a fix percentage of their plunder to the WG. Of course this conflicts with the military force's job as law enforcement branch since criminals are doing their job now. That two groups are in a conflict does not mean that they can't be working for the same guys.
the WG was clever in creating the "shichibukai" ….
instead of fighting some strong guys the WG just let them work for their own goals...minimalism the number of upcoming pirates, earning a lot of treasures and having strong "actually opponents" on their side....So yes, with Yonkoh against the WG and the Marine HQ + Shichibukai siding with the WG, you'd have three powers but just two sides.
"they believe in the Shichibukai". It's true that the Shichibukai follow their own goals, but they are still acknowledged by the WG, which means that on the surface they are on their side. It wouldn't make sense for the WG to form a group if they don't benefit from it. The entire balance of the three powers has to be considered from the WG's point of view since it is their baby. And from that point of view Shichibukai and Marine HQ are on the same side. That the Marines and Shichibukai don't like each other is out of question and I never argued that point.
agreed ,but i personally don
t see the shichibukai as a fighting force,"which could be used" against the yonkou… so actually you
re right with your comment but thats rly only "on the paper" in the OP-world....so the yonkou are the greatest power (also they have the important "new world" in their hand..says a lot) but the WG created the image that the yonkous don`t have the better cards cause they count the shichibukai as a fighting force for them..but like i said at the beginning they would never get all 7 shichibukai for a battle where each of the 3 powers clashes against each other..(WG vs pirates)As far as Moria is concerned, apparently he suffered a crushing defeat seeing how much his experience at the New World traumatized (sp?) him. Besides that they once were on the same level doesn't mean that they still are. It's not just the protagonists that grow.
Don`t rly think that moria was ever near the level kaidou will be in strength…(we will see him later in the series so he MUST be a lot more stronger than the so far conquered villains....)
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=> WG = 4 Yonkou
=> WG >>> 1 Yonkou
=> There is no need to call 3 Admiral to deal with WhiteBerd.
=> There is an Admiral for LuffyOn the other hand, Luffy will not meet an admiral because Rooky < Yonkou, and deal with Yonkou is more important. The Government might go all out for Whiteberd and call 3 Admirals is because they want to make it quick and easy.
Actually, Luffy is most likely going to have to deal with 1 of the admirals, because he sorta punched a valuable Tenryubito. He has to fight him, otherwise I'll be disappointed.
And I doubt the WG could handle all 4 Yonkous, hence the Shichibukai.
WG+Shichibukai=Yonkou
WG=Whitebeard
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! http://img39.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/000029475/16.jpg
! http://img39.onemanga.com/mangas/00000002/00000319/04.jpg
Am I the only one seeing similarities between Kizaru and the bounty hunter? It'd make sense if the Admirals have different tasks, one of them is pirate hunting, one supports the Marine and the last one defends the Marine HQ.actually no, while the admirals shade indicates a hat, the mysterious guys shade indicates his hair and no hat…
I would look again...but thats just my opinion
Blue
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actually no, while the admirals shade indicates a hat, the mysterious guys shade indicates his hair and no hat…
I would look again...but thats just my opinion
Blue
There is a distinct similarity, but really Oda is rather free in his designs so some changes should be expected. And thinking logically seeing how Aokiji has appeared several times already and how he really isn't suited to act the villain atm, the chances of Kisaru being the admiral sent to squash those who offended the Tenryuubito are pretty much 50/50.
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@Don:
the WG was clever in creating the "shichibukai" ….
instead of fighting some strong guys the WG just let them work for their own goals...minimalism the number of upcoming pirates, earning a lot of treasures and having strong "actually opponents" on their side....I'm not arguing that point. That's component of the "it works to their advantage" point I was talking about. However seeing how much the WG cares about the balance of the three (which so far has been depicted as a far more important matter than any of the percentage the Shichibukai pay to them) I'd say the Gorosei consider the Shichibukai as a fighting force.
agreed ,but i personally don
t see the shichibukai as a fighting force,"which could be used" against the yonkou… so actually you
re right with your comment but thats rly only "on the paper" in the OP-world....so the yonkou are the greatest power (also they have the important "new world" in their hand..says a lot) but the WG created the image that the yonkous don`t have the better cards cause they count the shichibukai as a fighting force for them..but like i said at the beginning they would never get all 7 shichibukai for a battle where each of the 3 powers clashes against each other..(WG vs pirates)I understand your point and I think that we actually don't contradict each other. The Shichibukai are pirates, thus not a fighting force by military terms. They only fight if need be and not because they are members of a branch that serves exactly that purpose.
However the key component for my view is again, the WG's intention. They care about the balance, which maintains their world order. If for instance the Yonkoh move against the WG then they would need to protect. And if they don't want to be run down, they'd need to have the full strenght of arms that maintained the balance of the three powers which includes the Shichibukai.
You can use the Cold War scenario as an analogy for this. Two opposing sides neutralize each other with their military resources. Though a fight was never fought on the warfront, the sheer existance of the nuklear arsenal balanced the two superpowers out. The nukes were never used, but it doesn't mean that their purpose was meant to be used as weapons (= fighting force).
So from that point of view in the WG's eyes the Shichibukai are pretty much a fighting force in the worst case scenario. It's also in the Shichibukais interest because they can't be sure to not be treated as enemies because of their betrayal on pirate ideals. Also when they take down minor pirates for the WG they pretty much also work as a fighting force for them.
Don`t rly think that moria was ever near the level kaidou will be in strength…(we will see him later in the series so he MUST be a lot more stronger than the so far conquered villains....)
I don't think so either. I just tried to say that if they supposedly have been equal once, it doesn't mean that they still are.
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I'm not arguing that point. That's component of the "it works to their advantage" point I was talking about. However seeing how much the WG cares about the balance of the three (which so far has been depicted as a far more important matter than any of the percentage the Shichibukai pay to them) I'd say the Gorosei consider the Shichibukai as a fighting force.
ohh don
t misunderstand me …don
t want to argue about it ...we`re both right just wanted to add some points which i thought are importantI understand your point and I think that we actually don't contradict each other. The Shichibukai are pirates, thus not a fighting force by military terms. They only fight if need be and not because they are members of a branch that serves exactly that purpose.
However the key component for my view is again, the WG's intention. They care about the balance, which maintains their world order. If for instance the Yonkoh move against the WG then they would need to protect. And if they don't want to be run down, they'd need to have the full strenght of arms that maintained the balance of the three powers which includes the Shichibukai.
You can use the Cold War scenario as an analogy for this. Two opposing sides neutralize each other with their military resources. Though a fight was never fought on the warfront, the sheer existance of the nuklear arsenal balanced the two superpowers out. The nukes were never used, but it doesn't mean that their purpose was meant to be used as weapons (= fighting force).
So from that point of view in the WG's eyes the Shichibukai are pretty much a fighting force in the worst case scenario. It's also in the Shichibukais interest because they can't be sure to not be treated as enemies because of their betrayal on pirate ideals. Also when they take down minor pirates for the WG they pretty much also work as a fighting force for them.
yeah exactly..but don
t see all the shichibukai risking their life
s in a war for the WG,even in the worst case…
sure the shichibukai work for the WG cause so they dont have any problem with them and could be "pirates" without having the marine as their greatest enemy... but still they just help them out with the number of pirates around like you said...when the WG says to them they should fight against the yonkou, i rly can
t see some1 like mihawk,BB or even DeFlamingo go again a yonkou ,cause the WG told so...here these charas are just to selfish and they dont rly stand behind the ideas of the WG anyways(kuma does but the others i haven
t seen a sign)
but sure having such a fighting force is still a huge advantage for the WG, even if they dont use it(rly good example.."cold war") it could be interesting....WG wants WAR!...they sure planning with the shichibukai in the end for a final strike orso...seeing than that they don
t go against the yonkous could crush the WG and their believes in many ways hehe
1.going in a war against a great power without their backround(shichibukai)-huge losts
2.can`t rly accept that from the shichibukai..(here i see that i could be wrong ,cause the shichibukai would have also a huge disadvantage in loosing their autonomy )
3.could lead to the end of the WG world order... (but isn`t that the point which will sure come in the end of OP...a new era...WG losing their power)
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Did Oda write the "Grand Line Times"? If it wasn't, who was? An editor?
Yes, it came from One Piece Yellow book.
There's really no debating this.
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@Don:
ohh don
t misunderstand me …don
t want to argue about it ...we`re both right just wanted to add some points which i thought are importantI see. Well then there's nothing really to add from my side here.^^
yeah exactly..but don
t see all the shichibukai risking their life
s in a war for the WG,even in the worst case…
sure the shichibukai work for the WG cause so they dont have any problem with them and could be "pirates" without having the marine as their greatest enemy... but still they just help them out with the number of pirates around like you said...when the WG says to them they should fight against the yonkou, i rly can
t see some1 like mihawk,BB or even DeFlamingo go again a yonkou ,cause the WG told so...here these charas are just to selfish and they dont rly stand behind the ideas of the WG anyways(kuma does but the others i haven
t seen a sign)
but sure having such a fighting force is still a huge advantage for the WG, even if they dont use it(rly good example.."cold war") it could be interesting....WG wants WAR!...they sure planning with the shichibukai in the end for a final strike orso...seeing than that they don
t go against the yonkous could crush the WG and their believes in many ways hehe
1.going in a war against a great power without their backround(shichibukai)-huge losts
2.can`t rly accept that from the shichibukai..(here i see that i could be wrong ,cause the shichibukai would have also a huge disadvantage in loosing their autonomy )
3.could lead to the end of the WG world order... (but isn`t that the point which will sure come in the end of OP...a new era...WG losing their power)
I don't see all of the Shichibukai risking their lives for the WG either. In fact they are really the spice in this entire mess. With the Yonkoh and the Marine HQ the sides are pretty much clear. But the Shichibukai strike me as opportunists. True, on the paper it looks like the WG can count on them but seeing how each of them follows his own ways I'd say that it's rather wishful thinking from the WG to count on the Shichibukai.
Ok, of course somebody like Blackbeard is a good guess to help in this war thing, since he plans to overcome Whitebeard. But doesn't have to count for the others.
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Yea pretty much the way I see Shichibukai. They are opportunist through and through. That is why they became in first place. They couldn't achieve what they wanted to as just a pirate. And all cases we have seen so far they have taken on people that are walk in parks for them. Only reason they fight Luffy to death is because Luffy was in way of some plan of theirs, not that the WG told them or anything. They could have cared less, and maybe not even gone after Luffy.
Croc might have just cause he thought Luffy was nothing. But Moria would probably just be like why should I. (not like WG could really get in contact with him anyway, besides Kuma.
This is why I can see DonFlamingo contributing in this arc. Normally who knows. Wether he would listen to WG or say he is busy ect. But if that is indeed his auction house and it gets messed up and thus his business as well. Then he has a reason to fight them.
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in my opinion the shichibukai lost a lot of their imposing first impression i had of this power…
after knowing the other two powers in the OP world the shichibukai seemed to come in the backround....also now the SH are heading to the new world...and their isn`t rly shichibukai territory ......than moria-fight unexpected and more like"yeah now quick reducing the number of shichibukai left"..but anyways moria was a really cool villain even i first didn`t like his body..but who is perfect hahaha
but after not finishing of kuma(no even showing him as an more interesting cyborg)oda gave me more than hope to the shichibukai and their future role as villains
i dont judge charas after their bounty but sure we should list them in a gross way how much they had and so how much stronger they
re than the previos villains..or bountys would be completely useless---(dont start arguing again what a bounty means or not...i know it:tongue: and i don
t want to discuss that)
so DeFlamingo still has the highest so far seen "old" bounty and jinbei still sitting around in the OP-world as the strongest called of these power..my guess is that oda can`t come up with all shichibukais as direct villains,but now look who we have left...
jinbei should be 1 (cause called the strongest)
mihawk(don`t have to say here a word)
DeFlamingo(don`t know ,but because he is introduced since vol. 25 he must have an importnat role later---also cause of the new era thing...could just be a direct villain)...
kuma(sure interesting but don`t know when to fight him..((in a vegapunk arc maybe))
BB--won`t be long a shichibukai i think..sure a villain ...discussing against is just plain ignoring haha
last unknown 1(can`t even say why he should be introduced to have an rly important role..)
so 3(4 with BB) of the last 6 could be\will be villains....still good i think cause at first i thought they will now have more side roles than such a role like croc had it...
but when should a arc around all these shichibukai take place?? dont see in the new world the time for these villains cause the SH will more likely go against a yonkou and admirals will appear(and the SH can
t first fight 3 shichibukai in a row orso..would be damn boring)...mhh normally in a manga the next villain will be way more stronger(or cause of his special attacks or powers) harder to fight than the previous 1 but after fighting a yonkou in the new world orso it would be like a step backwards to fight a shichibukai..........
so this WAR! is perfect to bring some shichibukais in the arena but like i discussed with Ivotas i can
t rly see much interests of a shichibukai to be a part of this WAR!iam rly interested how oda will solve this
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When was Jimbei ever called the Strongest Shichibukai?
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Regarding this big balance discussion, I think some people seem to be forgetting that the Shichibuikai don't actually work for the Government, but just have a partnership with them. A "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deal. The Government lets them do what they want, and in exchange the Shichibukai give the gov't a piece of their plunder, and help them keep the other "super-pirates" from getting uppity and trying to take down the government. If you recall, they weren't forced to go to the meeting at Mariejoie (or however you spell it), and don't appear to take any direct orders. Although it's possible they'll call in for a Shichibukai to help deal with Whitebeard, I dunno if that's what's going to happen. I could be wrong, though.
Also, I think people are taking the numbers a mite bit too literally. Yes, there are 4 Emperors, and 7 Shichibukai. But, that doesn't necissarily mean those numbers (plus the gov't) perfectly neutralize each other, otherwise the Emperors could've just blitzed the Holy Land when Crocodile was beaten. The Shichibukai are meant to be a presence that prevents the Emperors from making a move like that. The Emperors know that if they did, the Shichibukai could very well fuck them up. It's not a straight numbers game, but more of a political situation. To compare it to real life, think of how even when America has a shitload of nuclear weapons, we get concerned if a volitile nation makes even a small handful.
Besides, this is One Piece, not Dragonball; this series doesn't have a black-and-white vertical power scale. There are villains from years ago who would still be dangerous today. Hell, the Shichibukai that Luffy did beat were only beaten under extremely extraordinaty circumstances (hell, he got crushed by Crocodile twice before he finally beat him, barely, and was left dying from the experience until he was given that antidote).
I mean, hell, look at the Shichibukai's abilities we've seen so far; the world's strongest swordsman who cleaves entire pirate ships in seconds (Mihawk), a stronger-than-stell cyborg loaded with WMDs both Fruit-related and not (Kuma), a guy who pretty much can kill anyone and anything instantly if he wanted to and can't be hurt by anything unless wet (Crocodile), and a man who can take total control of people's bodies (Doflamingo). To say that an Emperor is going to be more than twice as strong as those guys is silly, and even a little impossible (case in point: the world's strongest swordsman).
To be honest, though, Moria seemed pretty weak for a Shichibukai, which is why I didn't include him as an example. His position seemed to be gained by his shadow-zombie hordes, and less so on the man himself.
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When was Jimbei ever called the Strongest Shichibukai?
from yosaku or johnny when he first introduced the shichibukai..(but could sure be the bad german translation..)whatever on FI he should be the main villain haha
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@Don:
from yosaku or johnny when he first introduced the shichibukai..(but could sure be the bad german translation..)whatever on FI he should be the main villain haha
ha quoting Yosaku and johnny. they may have said something like that but they are about as knowledgable as luffy so I woulnd't trust their word. I think they were just saying something like 10x stronger htan human and jimbei is strongest fishman. and arlong was his first mate or something to that extent.
don't ebelive they said he was the strongest shichibukai
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Honestly, I'm almost expecting Jimbei to possibly be an ally to the Straw Hats. The Warlords aren't specifically against the Emperors, as we know Mihawk and Shanks have a perfectly cordial relationship. Kuma seems to know Dragon, though I admit this doesn't necessarily mean they're friends or allies. Moria and Kaidou fought primarily because they were competing for the same thing.
Also of note in the Balance issue (I apologize if this got mentioned somewhere along the way) is that the Emperors are not necessarily allies with one another. Whitebeard clearly doesn't seem to play well with others, and Shanks is pretty independent. With half of them like that we can expect the other two are probably simliar.
The Warlords, on the other hand, might cooperate if needed. Moria refused Kuma's help mostly because he felt needing assistance to take on a rookie like Luffy was a shot to the Pride. Against a more big-name foe, he might have accepted.
The Navy meanwhile, are an almost fully united force against piracy. Their full forces could be enough to take one the likes of the Four Emperors. Though, as Garp points out, it'd be idiocy to take one more than one at a time if you could help it.
Like Shmeckie said, numbers alone do not a balance of power make. Even if one side takes a small blow or two, the others aren't guaranteed to act. But at the same time, to be sure of that the injured party has to repair the damage as quick as possible (hence the rush to replace Crocodile).
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Honestly, I'm almost expecting Jimbei to possibly be an ally to the Straw Hats. The Warlords aren't specifically against the Emperors, as we know Mihawk and Shanks have a perfectly cordial relationship. Kuma seems to know Dragon, though I admit this doesn't necessarily mean they're friends or allies. Moria and Kaidou fought primarily because they were competing for the same thing.
I also think Jimbei will help them or some sort of way maybe train them or something but thats just because I don't like the idea of them defeating every shickibauki
Also of note in the Balance issue (I apologize if this got mentioned somewhere along the way) is that the Emperors are not necessarily allies with one another. Whitebeard clearly doesn't seem to play well with others, and Shanks is pretty independent. With half of them like that we can expect the other two are probably simliar.
Yes we know this but it's kind of like they emperors have a cease fire since any fighting will be and is pointless.
The Warlords, on the other hand, might cooperate if needed. Moria refused Kuma's help mostly because he felt needing assistance to take on a rookie like Luffy was a shot to the Pride. Against a more big-name foe, he might have accepted.
This is true pride will get you killed. Moria was foolish not to accept however the SHP would have been wiped out if he did.
The Navy meanwhile, are an almost fully united force against piracy. Their full forces could be enough to take one the likes of the Four Emperors. Though, as Garp points out, it'd be idiocy to take one more than one at a time if you could help it.
I disagree if you see Garp statement i take it as they really can't handle them unless they have 2 or 3 admirals + Sengoku fighthing and to focus so highly on one admiral will just leave them crippled and not be able to handle some one else. I think the WG is just trying to maintain the status quo. However i think WB will end up losing his life at the cost of rescuing Ace and even the WB pirates disband or someone takes over for him maybe Marco or Ace.
Like Shmeckie said, numbers alone do not a balance of power make. Even if one side takes a small blow or two, the others aren't guaranteed to act. But at the same time, to be sure of that the injured party has to repair the damage as quick as possible (hence the rush to replace Crocodile).
I agree with this the loss of crocodile proved that. The WG with out the CP9 is starting to crumble. If they lose the battle to WB they WG might fall.
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Conflicting groups doesn't mean that they are fighting each other. As a matter of fact both are to a degree on the WG's side. While the Marines work for them WG's as military force the Shichibukai do it as acknowledge pirates. The Shichibukai are supposed to take down other pirates and give a fix percentage of their plunder to the WG. Of course this conflicts with the military force's job as law enforcement branch since criminals are doing their job now. That two groups are in a conflict does not mean that they can't be working for the same guys.
I never said they didn't work for the same guys, my point was that the Shichibukai and the Marines won't be found working together, or backing each other up besides one guy from the Shichibukai.
The important factor here is that the whole balance of the three thing is the WG's idea. And from their point of view there's only those who are with them and those who are not. So yes, while it is three powers in terms of three groups there actually just two sides to chose. So yes, with Yonkoh against the WG and the Marine HQ + Shichibukai siding with the WG, you'd have three powers but just two sides.
Again, I didn't say that the Marines and the Shichibukai are friends like Spongebob and Patrick. I only said that they are on the same side, at least from the WG's point of view. Remember Crocodiles words "they believe in the Shichibukai". It's true that the Shichibukai follow their own goals, but they are still acknowledged by the WG, which means that on the surface they are on their side. It wouldn't make sense for the WG to form a group if they don't benefit from it. The entire balance of the three powers has to be considered from the WG's point of view since it is their baby. And from that point of view Shichibukai and Marine HQ are on the same side. That the Marines and Shichibukai don't like each other is out of question and I never argued that point.
I don't get how you can say Marine HQ + Shichibukai vs Yonkou when the Marine HQ and Shichibukai are Conflicting groups of equal power. I understand that the WG are the Shichibukai employer, but the Shichibukai don't even listen to the the WG, Only Kuma follows the WG orders.
Moria: And what of it? We're pirates. We sail where we please.And shut up… We have an unusual guest among us.Now then, "Despot" Kuma!!!As the single member of the Seven Armed Seas who actually follows the government's orders,no doubt they treasure your presence…But I don't! I don't know what the hell you're plotting.
http://www.mangascreener.com/stephen/onepiece/chapter474.txt
Going off of what has been said if the MHQ called for help do you really think the Shichibukai would help besides One? Since all six of them don't even listen to the WG?
The Point Im trying to make is that with what the story has presented us, on the subject of the Shichibukai and Marines them combing there powers together to fight against Yonkou seem a bit out there and bogus.
Edit:This has been posted a few pages back and I agree with it.
http://apforums.net/showpost.php?p=462117&postcount=391 -
@Kaimei-Karasuhebi:
what do you think SUICIDE means?
Not much in One Piece…
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Regarding this big balance discussion, I think some people seem to be forgetting that the Shichibuikai don't actually work for the Government, but just have a partnership with them. A "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" deal. The Government lets them do what they want, and in exchange the Shichibukai give the gov't a piece of their plunder, and help them keep the other "super-pirates" from getting uppity and trying to take down the government. If you recall, they weren't forced to go to the meeting at Mariejoie (or however you spell it), and don't appear to take any direct orders. Although it's possible they'll call in for a Shichibukai to help deal with Whitebeard, I dunno if that's what's going to happen. I could be wrong, though.
Also, I think people are taking the numbers a mite bit too literally. Yes, there are 4 Emperors, and 7 Shichibukai. But, that doesn't necissarily mean those numbers (plus the gov't) perfectly neutralize each other, otherwise the Emperors could've just blitzed the Holy Land when Crocodile was beaten. The Shichibukai are meant to be a presence that prevents the Emperors from making a move like that. The Emperors know that if they did, the Shichibukai could very well fuck them up. It's not a straight numbers game, but more of a political situation. To compare it to real life, think of how even when America has a shitload of nuclear weapons, we get concerned if a volitile nation makes even a small handful.
Besides, this is One Piece, not Dragonball; this series doesn't have a black-and-white vertical power scale. There are villains from years ago who would still be dangerous today. Hell, the Shichibukai that Luffy did beat were only beaten under extremely extraordinaty circumstances (hell, he got crushed by Crocodile twice before he finally beat him, barely, and was left dying from the experience until he was given that antidote).
I mean, hell, look at the Shichibukai's abilities we've seen so far; the world's strongest swordsman who cleaves entire pirate ships in seconds (Mihawk), a stronger-than-stell cyborg loaded with WMDs both Fruit-related and not (Kuma), a guy who pretty much can kill anyone and anything instantly if he wanted to and can't be hurt by anything unless wet (Crocodile), and a man who can take total control of people's bodies (Doflamingo). To say that an Emperor is going to be more than twice as strong as those guys is silly, and even a little impossible (case in point: the world's strongest swordsman).
To be honest, though, Moria seemed pretty weak for a Shichibukai, which is why I didn't include him as an example. His position seemed to be gained by his shadow-zombie hordes, and less so on the man himself.
Think our overestimating the power of all the Shickibukai tremendously. If you look over the Shickibukai roles in the series its been keeping the smaller pirates in line. Mihawk sinking ships he ran across, Crocodile taking down troublemakers in Alabasta, Moria pillaging any crew that flowed into the Florian triangle, Kuma is likely sent on assassintation/clean up missions all the time, even Jimbei's role is likely policing the underwater route to the New World since the marines can't do it.
Thats pretty much their role. WG&Marines police the vast majority of the world, Emperors run the show in the deepest part of the Grand Line, Shickibukai run things where the Government doesn't have a significant presence.
Its not really impossible to think their more than 2x stronger than the Shickibukai when you look at their top division captains. Ace, Marco, and probably the big guy are all Shickibukai level, lesser ranked captains probably Super Novas in their day. When the Fire Elemental(whose powerful even without the use of his fruit) is only the 3rd strongest member of a crew thats says a lot.
Ace's greatest attack engulfed half an Island, a simple clash of swords between two emperors split the atmosphere. Clearly Oda's trying to tell us theirs a reason so many super human people either serve the likes of WB or are left tramautized from their experiences in the Grand Line&New World. Just like a rookie vs. them it likely takes extrodinary circumstancs to stand up to an Emperor
WB or Shanks wouldn't need to be defeated by Crocodile to figure out wetting guy made out of sand or themselves and hes screwed. WB takes a sip from his jug and sprays it on his spear and Crocs finished in one move. Could even grab a torch instead of his blade and turn Croc into a glass statue. Croc sucessfully sucking Shanks dry? Have a hard time picturing that when Luffy resisted poison that melted a rock.
Abilities like Don Flamingo's and Moria's are likely ineffective against WB and Shanks or anyone on or above their level. Its possible Kaidou improved since his fight with Moria and its possible Moria got weaker since his defeat.
However its also possible Moria strategy vs. strong opponents was to use his crews or even civilian shadows to bolster his strength like Luffy did against Oz. Islands of people vanishing in the sunlight wherever you went seems an easy way to gain a 320 million bounty. In the end he met Kaidou who killed his crew to make their shadows disappear to send the shadow titan fleeing.
Don Flammingo taking control of Shanks or WB seems unlikely. Flammingo taking multiple hostages on lets say Sanji&Franky's level to use as meat shields or puppet fighters seems about right.
Mihawk seems like the exception to Shickibukai strength.
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Yea I think shickibukai basically just do whatever they want.
If they manage to see a pirate they feel like killing then they will. Like how Mihawk basically did it because either bored or they woke him up from a nap *as Zeff put it.
But all they are really obligated to do is to give part of their earnings to gov. They also beat on weaker pirates i'm sure for the sole reason of it keeps gov happy and not bother them about doing stuff. I mean its obvious that Kuma is considered a weird case for them because he tends to do things they tell him too.
But still did they really do anything when he let the SH's live. No they can't really, except take away his position and they don't want to do that. upsets their balance. Shichibukai are basically WG recognized Arlongs. Ha funny how he decided to leave Jimbei for becoming one, and yet Arlong basically becomes one as well.
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I don't get how you can say Marine HQ + Shichibukai vs Yonkou when the Marine HQ and Shichibukai are Conflicting groups of equal power. I understand that the WG are the Shichibukai employer, but the Shichibukai don't even listen to the the WG, Only Kuma follows the WG orders.
I never argued that the Shichibukai are self-centered I only said that for the WG, they are part of their fighting force. The WG wouldn't care that much to find a replacement for Crocodile if isn't to strenghten their side.
And yes, you can work together as conflicting groups. The enemy of my enemy is my friend is the perfect saying to discribe when two conflicting groups can work together, which is exactly how I see this entire Three Powers matter.
Besides, we've already seen them working together. The whole point of the Maryjoa meeting was so that Marine HQ and Shichibukai could together determine a successor for Crocodile. It is exactly as you said, they were conflicting each other, but at the same time it was exactly as I said, they didn't kill each other, sat down and worked things out. Conflicting each other and working together doesn't necessarily negate each other. That's my point.
@ doflamingo: That "Jinbei the strongest thing" was definitely one of the numerous Carlsen screw ups. You should never go with the German version if such questions are concerned. ;)
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Oda seems to bank the emotional aspect on the principle of what Charlos did to Hatchi than him actually killing Hatchi. Sure it loses some oompf but it works well enough. I seriously doubt an Admiral won't show up. WB may be the strongest man in the world but I doubt he has the power to keep all of the HQ Marine Admirals busy. Not to mention, Garp said that he didn't want the Marines to have to handle 2 Legends at the same time. As far as the Marines are concerned, Luffy is not a legend atm so that brings his threat level down some despite his high bounty.
As for the power balance arguement, I do infact think that Yonkou = Marines = Schicibukai. It's like a pie that has been split into 3 equal sections. The way I see it, the WG was overpowered by the Yonkou and the rest of multitude of pirate crews. The Schicibukai were most likely created to offset the up and coming pirates. Yonkou, Marines and Schicibukai all prey on the lesser pirates for loot, fame or justice. If you remember when Crocodile lost to Luffy, Shanks was able to send Rockstar to meet WB. The balance was shifted as the Marines had to focus on the gap created by the Shicibukai allowing the Yonkou some leverage. So just as people have said already, they keep each other in check as well as the other pirate crews.
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@ doflamingo: That "Jinbei the strongest thing" was definitely one of the numerous Carlsen screw ups. You should never go with the German version if such questions are concerned. ;)
thought learned that lesson long time ago but that was a relict which i had carried in my mind for 8yrs
wootever strongest fishman so far known is a absolutely "must be villain" which was my actually point…...... -
I didn't say that the Shichibukai and Marine HQ work together 24/7. They are conflicting groups, but they can join forces against the greater enemy. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. This is how I see the entire matter, thus two conflicting groups can work together for the time being.
I don't see that happing, only 1 out of the seven follow there employer orders. The rest do as they please. Greater enemy, that has yet to be shown in the Yonkou.
Besides, the whole meeting at Maryjoa showed that both can work together. Doflamingo and Kuma appeared to discuss Crocodiles successor with Sengoku, Tsuru and others. Yes, they were definitely acting as conflicting groups but in the end the worked together, which was the entire point of the meeting.
Doflamingo came because he was bored. Kuma is the only one of the Shichibukai who follows the WG as stated before, Mihawk came because of interest in the pirates on the agenda at that time. It was even stated There's no use waiting..No one else will come…Getting 2 out of 6 was better than I had expected by Sengoku. If they don't come out to any meetings most of the time, or Follow the WG Orders who hold more weight then the MHQ, you really think they will come to aid the MHQ in a battle?
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I think the term "privateer" suits the Shichibukai far more than the term "pirate". They are sometimes pretty famous and they like to see them amongst people (as we could see from crocodiles maskerade…), are allowed to harbor in marine ports etc and are to go against other pirates instead of another nation.
It is with most weight to what they said when Laffette (I am sure I spelled him wrong.... Blackbeards crew member, the policemen) tried to convince them to let Blackbeard join the Shichibukai. "No bounty.... he is no good for intimidation". They are counting on the intimidation value rather than the combative value. As you could see Lola's crew was crapping their pants when they became aware who Kuma was.
Regarding the bounty on the head of the Shichibukail.... I would say that Crocodile was getting a rather high estimated value due to being accepted into the Shichibukai at "only" 80 million (as in that his intimidating value was very high allthough his bounty was low compared to the others).
Anyways back to the next chapter. I think it will be a "roundup chapter" rather than a massive fighting one. I do think it will foreshadow who will fight who but I rather think that we are going to see how each one of the "supernova's" will act and how the setting will look like, because I am almost 100% sure that not everyone of the supernova's will have the guts of sticking around when they see Garp's ship sailing into the port + being scared of an HQ admiral, while others will gladly stay and stay true to their way of commanding their ship. -
I don't see that happing, only 1 out of the seven follow there employer orders. The rest do as they please. Greater enemy, that has yet to be shown in the Yonkou.
Lol, the both of us actually agree with each other, we just cling to one aspect of the whole picture. You say that you don't see all seven work together and I say that in the ideal vision of the WG they do. So we don't contradict each other.
Doflamingo came because he was bored. Kuma is the only one of the Shichibukai who follows the WG as stated before, Mihawk came because of interest in the pirates on the agenda at that time. It was even stated There's no use waiting..No one else will come…Getting 2 out of 6 was better than I had expected by Sengoku. If they don't come out to any meetings most of the time, or Follow the WG Orders who hold more weight then the MHQ, you really think they will come to aid the MHQ in a battle?
I think it's likely. The urgencies are different. Finding a successor for Crocodile is more of a boring politic topic, while standign up to an attacking Whitebeard is a fight for your own life. By no means I'm saying that all seven would be present in such a situation it should matter more to them then boring politics since their own well being might depend on that.
But again, we're not really arguing here. Same thing as above I say that in the WG's opinion they would come, while in reality only those would come that expect a personal gain of this situation, which is your take (which I never argued).
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This whole war with WB, is more the WG's concern and orders, not the marines. Also, marines and the WG are the same thing, admirals start off as marines and work their way up. Marines are simply the weaker footsoldiers.
Also, if Luffy finishes them off quickly, how will the WG ever find out?
Till then, they'd have escaped to Fishman island.
Which in a way supports the no help for those losers theory.
If a admiral does come, or more…when will they have the time to get their ship coated?!That made me think of another thing.
A admiral comes, sees how "unworthy" the Tenryuubuto are and kills them.
Why?
Because they are not only pathetic, but also know their dirty little secret, probably concerning the void century.Gah, so many possibilities, I want the next chapter rite NAO!
.<
The Tenryuubito jerks are definitely the type of ambassadors who abused power. It's quite obvious. There's no way they're going to sit back and let Luffy get away with that punch. We can expect a retaliation, and maybe they will try to bride Luffy. Of course, Luffy will refuse, and then something will happen. The mere mention of the possibility of an admiral showing up is excellent foreshadowing for this to happen. What i'm guessing is that after the Tenryuubito contact MHQ. We'll get an admiral, or Garp will say he'll deal with it.
Then, we have Rayleigh… he's been introduced for a reason. Quite possibly to allow the SHP to escape once the marines show up.
By the way, this chapter also illustrates why his lack of killing is a hinderance. When Hacchan was shot I literally felt nothing. Obviously it was not Charlos
intention to kill him. That aside, the second I saw a smoking gun, it just didn
t even matter. I think I even said thus in my head:So?
It
s just like, we know you
re not going to do anything, so why bother? It loses dramatic tension. Now if Charlosshot had actually put down some people or we saw the other pirate taken out by his father, I might have thought,
Woah….maybe Hacchan wont just be bandaged up and walking around like nothing happened in a few dozen chapters.
Not meant to be a rant, just a good opportunity to show one of the reasons Oda`s aversion to non-suicidal deaths for side characters hurts the story more than could ever help it.
I'm totally with you here Greg. There have been lots of cannon fodder that have survived that if they had died, I believe it would give one piece a much stronger impact on these scenes. I was exactly the same as you. I'm actually not even convinced the guy who bit his tongue off is dead. don't be surprised if 3 chapters from now, he's all bandaged up around the mouth.
Regarding the powers discussions. I personally like to view it from the MHQ + SCBK = Yonkou. However, the One Piece Yellow from Grand Times seems to say they're equal. However, from the stories perspective, the Gorousei were almost scared of a mere conversation between WB and RH. It's almost as if they feared a team up of these Mega powers. This is further backed up by Garp saying that the MHQ can't handle two legends at the same time.
To me, the story continues to point towards the Yonkou having the upperhand. -
hmm I just got a crazy idea Axe man for the SH crew.
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yes. that is crazy.
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….
Do you people seriously expect me to read all of those massive posts?
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Am I the only one seeing similarities between Kizaru and the bounty hunter? It'd make sense if the Admirals have different tasks, one of them is pirate hunting, one supports the Marine and the last one defends the Marine HQ.its neither a hat or hair !!
those are the jackets collars :O
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….
Do you people seriously expect me to read all of those massive posts?
:(lol thats what i'm saying people get wrapped up in these discussions
yes. that is crazy.
Yea he knew about the other Captain dude and he was just waiting in the shadows and shit. Maybe he is just waiting for a Pirate crew/captain that he feels is worthy of him serving under.
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Had an idea: What if Garp disguises himself as Akainu to get Luffy and crew safely out of town? He could "arrest" them and Raleigh, and take them back to Shakky's Bar while the rest take the heat.
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@Fire Fist:
Had an idea: What if Garp disguises himself as Akainu to get Luffy and crew safely out of town? He could "arrest" them and Raleigh, and take them back to Shakky's Bar while the rest take the heat.
I think Garp is 2 proud to hid like that. It's not as if him being a Vice Admiral isn't anything to be ashamed of either.
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@MonkeyDMalcolm:
I think Garp is 2 proud to hid like that. It's not as if him being a Vice Admiral isn't anything to be ashamed of either.
But the Tenryuubuto are entitled to Admirals and them being the way they are, they would just complain about it and try to contact a real admiral.
But yeah, Garp got away with helping Luffy once, I don't think he'd be able to pull that sort of stunt off.
Unless he answers that message/call before anyone else notices. -
But the Tenryuubuto are entitled to Admirals and them being the way they are, they would just complain about it and try to contact a real admiral.
But yeah, Garp got away with helping Luffy once, I don't think he'd be able to pull that sort of stunt off.
Unless he answers that message/call before anyone else notices.yea but there i think because of the lack of resource he will be able to because of the situation with WB so he will be able to suffice in this situation i believe.
I really want the axe-man to join the crew.
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Garp might do that since he still talks with his son Dragon and he is the leader of the group that is trying to destroy the World Government.
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I wanna see Buggy come back. Updated character design and all badass in shabondy. He can school some of these supernovae on what a pirate really is! He's had plenty of time to advance and improve off panel. Hell if Coby can learn Soru anything is possible
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Well in theory Buggy should be able to win against Mihawk in a fight.
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Well in theory Buggy should be able to win against Mihawk in a fight.
i would love to hear how that would happen
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@MonkeyDMalcolm:
i would love to hear how that would happen
I think he just means that Buggy can't die or be wounded by swords, where as Mihawk can.
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Lol, the both of us actually agree with each other, we just cling to one aspect of the whole picture. You say that you don't see all seven work together and I say that in the ideal vision of the WG they do. So we don't contradict each other.
I think it's likely. The urgencies are different. Finding a successor for Crocodile is more of a boring politic topic, while standign up to an attacking Whitebeard is a fight for your own life. By no means I'm saying that all seven would be present in such a situation it should matter more to them then boring politics since their own well being might depend on that.
But again, we're not really arguing here. Same thing as above I say that in the WG's opinion they would come, while in reality only those would come that expect a personal gain of this situation, which is your take (which I never argued).
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Well in theory Buggy should be able to win against Mihawk in a fight.
Also Buggy has learned to split at a subatomic level and is a living nuclear weapon.
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Well in theory Buggy should be able to win against Mihawk in a fight.
Mihawk would win easily
just cut his feet to shreads
thats likes buggys weakness isn't it -
@MonkeyDMalcolm:
i would love to hear how that would happen
It the same as what NANLIT posted about it.
I think he just means that Buggy can't die or be wounded by swords, where as Mihawk can.
That is what would happen in theory at least.
Also Buggy has learned to split at a subatomic level and is a living nuclear weapon.
But his power is surviving from being chopped up though and not turning nuclear right?
Mihawk would win easily
just cut his feet to shreads
thats likes buggys weakness isn't itIsn't the feet problem is that it can't float like the rest of him?
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Lol, that came unexpected. :happy: