what? Is that why you like Alabasta more? Complicated plot and overlapping twists? Oh please. For the record, the Alabasta arc doesn't compare in originality and complexity as an arc like TB and TB isn't even epic albeit really good. And there was plenty of that overlapping stuff like in Skypiea where we find out about Roger and how he can read the poneglyphs. We just haven't seen the result yet ;)
Has Oda lost his touch?
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I think that a lot of answers are going to depend on a person's opinion of specific arcs. I personally loved pre-Grandline and Water 7, so I would be more prone to say "I think that Oda started off great, went downhill for a while, and started to do a great job again more recently."
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I want to take the time to point out an interesting phenomenon that in my language is called a "cultural clash"
baisicly since the cultures differ people form those cultures see things differently.
I think Greg or someone once posted something about him visiting Japaneese boards and found that Japaneese in general were far more analytic then the general western fan.
but basically they splitting hairs. Its like aww man i knew sanji would save nami oda predictable op = bad. its like stupid generalizations like that piss me off. stating that the hero will defeat the bad guy w/o any mention of the plot and judging based off of that is a disservice to what the witter is putting out and if your willing to generalize so broadly then any manga should interest you or you shouldn't read them.
It has to come to a point where enough is enough and they need to stop. It becomes redundant and meaningless. It's kinda like when ppl was arquing if it was thriller bark or thriller barque or thriller park when oda had it written as thriller bark in the manga chapter.
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I haven't seen shuvy post in a while, nice.
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Let me begin by saying I'm not the OP fan I was one or two years ago. Enies Lobby's latter part, from Sanji v. Jabura on (though I think Nami v. Califa was the real turn) hasn't had the same impact as everything prior to that, save the introduction of Gear 3, which a lot of people seem to dislike on this forum anyway. In fact, I've stopped reading after Water 7 II and will not read Thriller Bark until it's completely finished.
e1n will probably disagree with the following paragraph, and has in the past, but one of OP's shining qualities is the ability to blend fantastical plot stories with semi-believable plot elements. In normal anime, we see backdrops during action scenes with stars and characters making exaggerated expressions - does this mean the cartoon is fake as a whole? No, those are just artistic touches to make the show more visual. So, one can discount some of the impossibilites in OP (for comedic effect), like the walking inside Sky King Rolar's eye.
But when Oda makes those impossibilities plot-centric, they don't live up to the standard of quality for the rest of the manga - I would say that most of these "impossibilites" were primarily predominant in East Blue, and they became fewer in number following Arabasta and Skypiea, but rose back again in Water 7.
I do not think Oda has lot his touch - at the same time, I don't think Masashi Kishimoto has lost his touch - since both manga-ka show signs they've still got ideas but aren't able to translate them into manga for various reasons, namely, the popularity of their own shows. With OP's thematic shift during Enies Lobby toward something more akin to DBZ, which Oda stated he doesn't like as much as the earlier DB, it becomes clear that he's not the only guy who has imput in OP, and that someone, most likely Shueisha, is pressuring him to push the manga in another direction. Much like Togashi, really - perhaps Togashi's loyalty to Shueisha for YYH is why he's still in Jump today?
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That said, Oda's humour never really impressed me too much - I mostly accepted it as a much-needed essential of shounen. But Gurren-Lagann showed me that someone can take Oda's style of humour, make it zanier, and thus more hillarious.
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The thing is - Oda needs to go 'downhill' for a while, he has to build up the plot. Arabasta was all about building up for later arcs. I belive that we'll see many twists coming from Skypea too. We can't have a pure fight after a pure fight aka dbz. TB seems to be all about dreams and character development.
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@MonkeyDMalcolm:
but basically they splitting hairs. Its like aww man i knew sanji would save nami oda predictable op = bad. its like stupid generalizations like that piss me off. stating that the hero will defeat the bad guy w/o any mention of the plot and judging based off of that is a disservice to what the witter is putting out and if your willing to generalize so broadly then any manga should interest you or you shouldn't read them.
It has to come to a point where enough is enough and they need to stop. It becomes redundant and meaningless. It's kinda like when ppl was arquing if it was thriller bark or thriller barque or thriller park when oda had it written as thriller bark in the manga chapter.
Now you are generalizing shuvy into a group im not sure he belongs to. If the Japaneese are so much more analytic then the westerners that someone (who i belive is Greg) said then there is imo quite a big chance that they dont mind "predictable" to the same extent as westeners as the predict far more then westeners. OK i did alot of assumptions there but so did you.
Im not entirely sure but shuvy could still have slight problems with the language barrier shich causes him not to be able to express himself to the full extent that he wants to. If that is the case you will have to let such generalizations pass. (I will apologize to shuvy if that is not the case)
And imo you are just takeing your irritation of such things out on Shuvy even though he has not made himself deserving of such treatment.
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Now you are generalizing shuvy into a group im not sure he belongs to. If the Japaneese are so much more analytic then the westerners that someone (who i belive is Greg) said then there is imo quite a big chance that they dont mind "predictable" to the same extent as westeners as the predict far more then westeners. OK i did alot of assumptions there but so did you.
There isn't a codified assumption for the Japanese and ELC readership, but I will say that the average OP fan falls into one of two categories:
1. Newbie, OP is one of the first titles read.
2. Experienced, OP is one of the more recent titles.Most of as at AP from '05 or earlier fall into the latter category, NarutoFan, GaiaOnline and various hives are swarming with the former.
AP in the past has expressed a love for Oda to "dare to be different". Cheeseburgers aren't the most unique food but Oda can cook them in a special way so that we don't get sick of eating them every week.
He did that with Arabasta, Skypiea, the DBF and Water 7. He wasn't experienced pre-Arlong and has got sloppy in late Enies Lobby/Water 7 II.
But the taste deal also comes from experience - if OP is the only manga one reads, of course one can rate it highly. But since I came here I've immigrated to the Other Anime/Manga forum and read a whole lot more series to compare OP to - so, my end belief is that OP is "better than average, good, but not great". Still an epic coming-of-age story, but not as well done as some other stuff and didn't meet the potential it could have.
What I'm saying is, the worst OP fans are the ones who fawn over it right after they've finished Inu-Yasha and Furuba.
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ok im not sure i get all that Malintex… in which of the two groups would you put me? or atleast assume me to be?
is it related to MDMs dislike for generalizqation?
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ok im not sure i get all that Malintex… in which of the two groups would you put me? or atleast assume me to be?
I wouldn't pigeon-hole everyone into those two groups, I'm just saying the trends fall that way - OP fans are either older people with a lot of experience with Japanese media or really young folk with very little experience. Across the line older fans (for almost everything) crave something "fresh".
is it related to MDMs dislike for generalizqation?
MDMs…?
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What I'm saying is, the worst OP fans are the ones who fawn over it right after they've finished Inu-Yasha and Furuba.
That's the best thing you've ever said.
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While I don't necessarily agree with everything Terek said, the ability to compare with a variety of other manga is probably an interesting distinguishing factor. I personally have read very little (Hikaru No Go, Lupin III, One Piece. That's basically how it went), so I can't say that "One Piece is the best manga ever!" because I have very little else in its field to compare it to. Plus, OP is shonen. Lupin isn't. I'm not sure where Hikago is categorized.
I'm pretty much just judging based on how much I enjoy it, not how it compares to everything else.
Also, I believe that most of One Piece's humor comes from the absurdity of the character designs themselves. But that's another story.
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MDM = my shortened nick for MonkeyDMalcolm.
I still havent understood if you are agreeing with me, disagreeing or quoted me just because "while we are at it" or whatever.
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I still havent understood if you are agreeing with me, disagreeing or quoted me just because "while we are at it" or whatever.
You yourself should figure out where you fit - those categories are broad, or you might not fit into them at all. My own analysis of myself -
…
When I came to AP, I had Ranma 1/2, Love Hina, Naruto, Dragonball Z, Dragonball, Outlaw Star, Big O, Pokemon, Rurouni Kenshin, Inu-Yasha and Ghost in the Shell under my belt. OP blew me away when I first read it, and I marathoned from the first chapter all the way to the Sea Train arc.
Since those eleven, I've seen nearly two hundred different media, whether they be manga, anime, light novel or visual novel. OP still holds strong against all of that, but it's not as godly as I once thought.
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regardless of where i place myself i was trying to discern what you meant (and any relevance) by trying to figure out if and where you placed me in those two groups. Since you didnt try to place me nevermind.
im just confused with the paragraph you quoted but il drop it now since we are so far offtopic its silly…
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I agreed 100% percent with Terek's posts. OP is better than average, but not great. Even agree with the Kishi thing too.
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Funny, because I hold the opposite experience/opinion:
When I first started reading OP back in 2001, I thought it was just a good/above average Shonen, I actually dropped it during Skypia cuz life got busy and I didn't hold it that dear.
When I re-picked it up in 2006, I actually got a lot more impressed w/ it and current days almost consider it a godly title. I've read/watched more and here I am liking OP more. Why? For the simple reason that 80% of the other mangas/animes start just as great or even better, but "lost their touch" some where in the middle. OP, just for being so long and yet mean the while consistently entertaining, is godly.
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read my sig. It's totally sums up some people on this thread.
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Nope, I don't believe Oda has lost his touch. If anything, his art has been AMAZING lately. And the story takes on twists that you don't really expect, which to me, is what is really great about this series.
Alabasta was cool, but I honestly believe that the turning point for the series has to be Enis Lobby. It was just at a much larger scale
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so, my end belief is that OP is "better than average, good, but not great".
Even so, I believe, in Japan, it's the number one selling manga. When the shipment for new book arrives, it generally sells out within first few hours in big stores.
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I think it's impossible to gauge manga/anime on a universal scale that works for everyone. In fact, I know it is.
It's really all about personal preference. I don't pretend to know all of manga and anime, but I've seen quite a few. One Piece, for me, has always had the most longevity. I couldn't really explain it, I think it's got a certain kind of magic that's hard to describe. It feels like a true labor of love from Oda.
I only started reading/watching 2 years ago, and all this time I've never thought it was ''Godly'' or ''the best'', but it is the series I go back to the most. That's gotta count for something.
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Well, a lot of people just see him as degrading Oda.
And I have yet to see a second post by him, which doesn't bring the word "discuss" into play.Wouldn't bashing Alabasta just because the OP likes it (from reading some of the posts, that seemed to be the intention) also insulting to Oda?
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Wow, all these experienced members are starting to make me feel like a noob.
I only started reading the manga during the CP9 fights at Enies Lobby (cuz the anime was taking too long).
I've watched the anime on the 4Kids dubs from the beginning and only really gained intrest in it during the Arlong arc (Even with the stupid puns, I thought Luffy beating Arlong was probably the koolest thing ever at the time). I switched over to subs during the Alabasta fillers, and watching Krock finally lose to Luffy got me hooked instantly. All of those episodes since Zoro's fight with Hawkeye has built up to a fight against a Shichibukai, and finally one was beaten. That and all the other islands in between the island of sand and Whiskey Peak made it that much better. For every high point there has to be a low point, and for me, that was watching Whiskey Peak and the first half of Drum (I didn't see Little Garden until after…But I wasn't as impressed with Little Garden as I was with other parts).
Oda losing his touch? I don't really think that. Although I do see what he means as Enies Lobby (where I started reading the manga) never really entertained me as well as Alabasta did, even though they share some simliarlities (being epic arcs in which Luffy and gang has to help a nakama). However, EL/W7 is the first arc where the Strawhats find a new power in the Grand Line that stronger than they imagined: The World Government and the high levels of the Navy. I, myself, believe one of Oda's purposes for this arc was to give us a feel of just how strong the Navy is, and is building up for an epic battle with one of the Admirals (or some higher power than CP9 in the World Government). I think that Enies Lobby/Water 7 is to the Navy powers as the Hawkeye fight was to the Shichibukai.
And I'm THROUGH. Falls asleep
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So, is the rumor that SJ is known for making mangaka change their work true?
Cuz I seem to notice a trend with obligitory transformations, random powerups, excessive fanservice, Goku dopplegangers and quick, sudden declines in quality that totally contradict a mangaka's previous work.
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I been talking with my other Japanese friends and we all seem to agree …
All right! We have a chance to interact with our Japanese members and guests – I think it's always interesting to hear the Japanese P.O.V. of OP and of AP (and especially after the controversy raised in a recent thread, but we won't bring that here, since it's already resolved).
We feel that certain elements, such as complexity, dept, and entrainment of stories is lacking in the current stories … Some claim that this is because we were middle schoolers during the Arabasta Ark, and now that we are college students, we don’t get as excited as we used to do with the current stories.
Hmm, interesting – and a good possibility. Many of us AP folk didn't discover One Piece until we were in high school, or in college, or (in my case at least) about to move into the second half of our post-school careers. So I wonder if this has had an effect on our feelings towards the story too: that because we were generally older when we first began reading the story, we don't associate it so strongly with our childhoods, and with a time that most people are eager to move out of. This may be why our enthusiasm hasn't waned as much over the years.
It could also be because we've had less exposure to OP than Japanese fans have. We didn't grow up with it as the omnipresent background of our childhoods. This may mean we don't associate it with that time as strongly as you do.
Regardless, I like how your group has considered more than one possibility for your current dissatisfaction before reaching a conclusion -- it's a rare trait that we don't often see on these boards (but I didn't have to point that out, did I? The evidence is all over this thread).
But about your question:
My guess is that most fans think highly of the arc that they "fell into" the deepest -- and that they'll use that arc as a standard for measuring all others. So if Alabasta was the arc that kept you and your friends up all night pondering the possibilities and marveling over the careful plotting, then this would be the standard in which you compare all other arcs. Does that make any sense?
For me, it's Jaya. I enjoyed each of the arcs up until then, but Jaya is what "converted me" from a casual reader to an OP fan. I think this is because I have always been more interested in exploring Oda's world than in conquering it. So it seems natural to me I'd fall most deeply for a transitional arc in which the biggest fights are the fights not fought, and where there are opportunities to explore shipwrecks in the ocean, critters in the jungle, and islands in the sky.
I'll be honest, the last two arcs (Thriller Bark and Enies Lobby) haven't been my favorite, but (just like you) I've been enjoying them in spite of a slight feeling of disappointment. The story-lines were impressive, but I felt that in some parts, the tragedy was amped up so high that it felt like a parody of tragedy – and elicited the wrong response from me (For example, I think it was enough that Robin's mother died and that Ohara was destroyed -- that would have made many of us as unhappy as poor Robin was then --but did we also need a wicked stepmother, neighborhood bullies, nothing but table scraps to eat and chores to do? To me those things pushed Robin's past away from honest "tragedy" into slightly campy "fairy tale" ...).
However, one thing Oda's shown us many times is that there are peaks for every valley, and that if you're patient, he'll eventually create something that will win you back again. And that was the case with the events that happened shortly after.
Now it seems like Oda is rushing through the story a little and there are some “moments” of nice stories but the comedy became the main part of the story.
I agree, the pace has felt somewhat "off" in Thriller Bark. Too fast in some parts, too slow in others. But on the whole, it's still an enjoyable and entertaining arc. So – like you and your friends -- I'm not about to abandon this story yet, or any time in the future. I have faith in Oda's ability to walk the tight wire. He's been doing it well for ten years now.
I think a lot of ppl here misunderstood me, so let me try to explain it again. In the all arks, story follows simple pattern: 1) The mugiwara pirates arrives to a new place, 2) discovers few new things, 3) identify the major enemy, and then 4) beat the crap out of the enemies.
But the unique thing about Arabasta Ark is the time span between event 3 and event 4 …
One of my first posts on this board was about this very thing, but I can't seem to find it, so I'll have to repeat myself here: we read stories with certain expectations in mind – certain plot and character developments that we want to see happen no matter what. If these expectations are not met, we become upset. Yet at the same time, we seek novelty -- so if there aren't enough unpredictable elements in a story as well, then we become bored and upset too.
Any story, when reduced to its barest frame, follows one of maybe six or seven possible plots – so it's not the plot that's different, it's the way the plot unfolds (the way the author deliberately decides what to reveal and when, and how much novelty to add along the way) So OP is essentially following the Shonen formula : arrive ... explore ... get into a jam ... kick booty ... move on -- and that's why we read it: anticipating the next island and the next fight, expecting at least one Mugiwara to win a battle, but hopefully all of them eventually. The novelty of OP is largely in the details: in the variety, richness and texture of each new land and each new situation. That's what distinguishes it from so many other manga which have the same essential plot.
I think what I am trying to get is that there are far more overlaps in Arabasta Ark, than any other arks. This is why I said that the ark was complex.
Yes, but to be fair, it may take us a few more arcs to realize what was overlapping in the later arcs. For instance, we didn't know until Alabasta about many things hinted in East Blue. So we may not know the true significance of Water Seven until after the Fishman Arc, etc. We have to give the story more time before we can make a comparison like this.
In real life, when anyone has a goal, he or she must face several challenges before reaching to the the final challenge. It takes time. But in recent ark, the time span is very short.
But there are also times in real life when goals blind-side you with their suddenness. For instance, I contemplated purchasing a home – a few days later, my landlord decided to sell the place immediately. I had exactly thirty days to either realize my dream, or else find myself and my belongings out on the curbside! Luckily, that story had a happy ending.
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All right! We have a chance to interact with our Japanese members and guests – I think it's always interesting to hear the Japanese P.O.V. of OP and of AP (and especially after the controversy raised in a recent thread, but we won't bring that here, since it's already resolved).
Hmm, interesting -- and a good possibility. Many of us AP folk didn't discover One Piece until we were in high school, or in college, or (in my case at least) about to move into the second half of our post-school careers. So I wonder if this has had an effect on our feelings towards the story too: that because we were generally older when we first began reading the story, we don't associate it so strongly with our childhoods, and with a time that most people are eager to move out of. This may be why our enthusiasm hasn't waned as much over the years.
It could also be because we've had less exposure to OP than Japanese fans have. We didn't grow up with it as the omnipresent background of our childhoods. This may mean we don't associate it with that time as strongly as you do.
Regardless, I like how your group has considered more than one possibility for your current dissatisfaction before reaching a conclusion -- it's a rare trait that we don't often see on these boards (but I didn't have to point that out, did I? The evidence is all over this thread).
But about your question:
My guess is that most fans think highly of the arc that they "fell into" the deepest -- and that they'll use that arc as a standard for measuring all others. So if Alabasta was the arc that kept you and your friends up all night pondering the possibilities and marveling over the careful plotting, then this would be the standard in which you compare all other arcs. Does that make any sense?
For me, it's Jaya. I enjoyed each of the arcs up until then, but Jaya is what "converted me" from a casual reader to an OP fan. I think this is because I have always been more interested in exploring Oda's world than in conquering it. So it seems natural to me I'd fall most deeply for a transitional arc in which the biggest fights are the fights not fought, and where there are opportunities to explore shipwrecks in the ocean, critters in the jungle, and islands in the sky.
I'll be honest, the last two arcs (Thriller Bark and Enies Lobby) haven't been my favorite, but (just like you) I've been enjoying them in spite of a slight feeling of disappointment. The story-lines were impressive, but I felt that in some parts, the tragedy was amped up so high that it felt like a parody of tragedy – and elicited the wrong response from me (For example, I think it was enough that Robin's mother died and that Ohara was destroyed -- that would have made many of us as unhappy as poor Robin was then --but did we also need a wicked stepmother, neighborhood bullies, nothing but table scraps to eat and chores to do? To me those things pushed Robin's past away from honest "tragedy" into slightly campy "fairy tale" ...).
However, one thing Oda's shown us many times is that there are peaks for every valley, and that if you're patient, he'll eventually create something that will win you back again. And that was the case with the events that happened shortly after.
I agree, the pace has felt somewhat "off" in Thriller Bark. Too fast in some parts, too slow in others. But on the whole, it's still an enjoyable and entertaining arc. So -- like you and your friends -- I'm not about to abandon this story yet, or any time in the future. I have faith in Oda's ability to walk the tight wire. He's been doing it well for ten years now.
One of my first posts on this board was about this very thing, but I can't seem to find it, so I'll have to repeat myself here: we read stories with certain expectations in mind -- certain plot and character developments that we want to see happen no matter what. If these expectations are not met, we become upset. Yet at the same time, we seek novelty -- so if there aren't enough unpredictable elements in a story as well, then we become bored and upset too.
Any story, when reduced to its barest frame, follows one of maybe six or seven possible plots – so it's not the plot that's different, it's the way the plot unfolds (the way the author deliberately decides what to reveal and when, and how much novelty to add along the way) So OP is essentially following the Shonen formula : arrive ... explore ... get into a jam ... kick booty ... move on -- and that's why we read it: anticipating the next island and the next fight, expecting at least one Mugiwara to win a battle, but hopefully all of them eventually. The novelty of OP is largely in the details: in the variety, richness and texture of each new land and each new situation. That's what distinguishes it from so many other manga which have the same essential plot.
Yes, but to be fair, it may take us a few more arcs to realize what was overlapping in the later arcs. For instance, we didn't know until Alabasta about many things hinted in East Blue. So we may not know the true significance of Water Seven until after the Fishman Arc, etc. We have to give the story more time before we can make a comparison like this.
But there are also times in real life when goals blind-side you with their suddenness. For instance, I contemplated purchasing a home -- a few days later, my landlord decided to sell the place immediately. I had exactly thirty days to either realize my dream, or else find myself and my belongings out on the curbside! Luckily, that story had a happy ending.
Wow…. thanks for that long respond. I think you nailed the point. Everyone has their "best" ark and they standarize and compare other ones with the favorite one. And for me..., it was the Arabasta...
btw..., epi 1 was the story that hooked me in to the OP.
And if you have any question about how most japanese ppl think, or even need any translation help, just PM me.:happy:
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Yeah you're right Rai,
Do not flinch, Rai! I agree!
PEOPLE AGREE WITH ME!
:D
~Terek:
…You said something I'm not so sure I understood.But the taste deal also comes from experience - if OP is the only manga one reads, of course one can rate it highly. But since I came here I've immigrated to the Other Anime/Manga forum and read a whole lot more series to compare OP to - so, my end belief is that OP is "better than average, good, but not great". Still an epic coming-of-age story, but not as well done as some other stuff and didn't meet the potential it could have.
Basically, I can say my list was around 100 anime/manga series', but ironically OP made me realize 99% of them suck, and I ended up now following only 4-5 manga I like, and I feel no need at all to read anything more to base my love to OP. Something to note is, this whole post is ONLY my opinion [obviously]~
Maybe I want to love OP so much, and maybe I just don't feel like watching anything else, but why should I read anything else that will make me get away from it, even the most little? I realized this thing way before, and I read so many stuff before OP, but I still treat OP as a newbie would.
Though, with said 4-5 manga to be 100% shonen, I can't really say I'm one to decide huh.btw, like I said in the earlier post, as it's impossible [at least for me, dunno about you] to compare OP's different sagas, it's impossible to compare different genre manga, or even serious/humoric shonen like HxH and OP.
Obviously if you like GITS, even if you like OP more, you can't say you can look at it in the same way as someone who doesn't even like manga, but reads OP alone because he likes the story.I yawned like 10 times during writing this as I just woke up, so sorry if the English or other stuff are shaky~
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You yourself should figure out where you fit - those categories are broad, or you might not fit into them at all. My own analysis of myself -
…
When I came to AP, I had Ranma 1/2, Love Hina, Naruto, Dragonball Z, Dragonball, Outlaw Star, Big O, Pokemon, Rurouni Kenshin, Inu-Yasha and Ghost in the Shell under my belt. OP blew me away when I first read it, and I marathoned from the first chapter all the way to the Sea Train arc.
Since those eleven, I've seen nearly two hundred different media, whether they be manga, anime, light novel or visual novel. OP still holds strong against all of that, but it's not as godly as I once thought.
i understand what your saying i've seen a lot of different animes i don't read many mangas because i have to be really into the anime in order to read the manga. This is the only manga i read. But a lot of different animes i've watched and come across have been good. Right now i think im watching like 4 or 5 different animes along with OP where i get the time who knows… but anywayz when i was i watchin death note I couldn't watch OP after wards because deathnote was so intense and was at such a high level. OP was dragging along i think this was right when the fights were about to happen in EL. When i compare OP to different animes I think how long did the series last. Could it compare in length to OP how long does it hold my interest. A lot of animes last from the 12-60 episode range. They really can't compare to OP IMHO. Although some of the series i've seen thought that they were really good. I feel that an anime should be consistent. OP is the most consistent anime and stretches for a long period of time. If you can find an anime that runs as long as OP and you think its better than OP than thats cool. But what you have to do is compare an ARk to one of these 26 episodes animes. OP being as long as it is already puts it in a class of it own. The fact that it doesn't have a years worth of fillers like some other animes. Also a shorter series means you can have more action and stuff. I hope you get what Im saying. If OP stacks strong to alot of anime/mangas u watched/read how is it not Godly
I find it wierd that in the begining of TB ppl complained that it moved to slow now ppl complain its moving to fast wats the deal with that.
Edit: sorry for the grammar and spelling errors its late and i don't feel like typin proper i hope yall can undersand it
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@MonkeyDMalcolm:
If OP stacks strong to alot of anime/mangas u watched/read how is it not Godly
I think the anime sucks. As an adaption it's OK, but everything reeks of poor production, from the sound effects to recycled movie music, nasty animation, really bad/variable artwork and cheap special effects.
The manga holds out against other stories only because it was my first manga, it's long, and I haven't read too many mangas. Anime-manga wise there are a lot of anime I've seen that are better than OP's manga, but not all of them overlap in the same types of genres OP does. The only one I can come up with is Gurren-Lagann, soundly beat OP in every category. Heck, there's even pirates. Space pirates. And Garlock is the boss
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This post is deleted!
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I think another thing that should be understood is it's human condition to be get bored of things that become very familiar to you. One Piece has been going on forever already. It's like an old spouse. For me, personally, new things show up and I become enticed and get that special high you get when you discover something new that excites you.
Like all things though, you only get one time to experience it fresh. This unintentional bias though can have severe influence on how a person views or ranks things. I think the only true way to gauge things is to try and remember how much fun you had with it when you first experienced it. It's easy to judge things later, but any person who's grown older here knows experience can be actually be a big detriment to enjoyment.
Just an example, I'm a session musician by trade and over the years my ear has naturally gotten much better. Now it's gotten to the point where any time I hear a piece of music I figure out what it's in it and compare it to other things, because I know the language. It's good and bad, I can understand things now but the magic you get from not understanding something or experiencing it for the first time is gone.
Well, you could say manga/anime is the same way. The more I see and experience the harder it is to just have fun with it, because I constantly compare it to other things and rank it.
Sorry, this was long winded and probably nonsensical. What I'm basically saying is, there's probably quite a few of us here who need to just relax a little and take One Piece for what it is:
A really fun, fantastic adventure. It never pretended to be more, and gave you exactly what you expected. It's creator has put his heart and soul into his creation, and I would feel sick bashing it in any way. I could only hope to create as something as special as One Piece in my life, so I won't pretend I know any better.
Thanks Oda!
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Oda-Sensei is a fuckin' Genius! He's the Mozart of manga. I mean he started One Piece when he was only 19 and as time passed, he kept getting better and better! Which is to be expected with experience. Enies Lobby, so far is my favorite arc followed by Skypiea. Alabasta is my third. I never really liked Vive and her country. I'm serious, sometimes I just wished Crocodile would win and take her country and chain her and make her watch him rule it as she cries her eyes out whilst getting raped by him and Ms Double finger. OK, maybe the previous sentence was a bit too much but seriously I never emphatized with why Luffy wanted to help her so much. In short, I don't think Oda-Sensei did enough for her character. Please don't hate me, it's only an opinion! Still though, Storm rocked ass^^ and the other fights were cool but I like the future fights even more. Conclusion, Oda-Sensei losing his touch? Are you mad?
I agree with you 150%,
My favorite arc is definitely Enies Lobby. The fights were amazing. All the finishers were great. Next is Alabasta. Though I think that is was not nearly as good as Enies Lobby. Oda Is a pure genius. I betchya that none of us at the age of 19 could come up with a story as good as him -
I think the anime sucks. As an adaption it's OK, but everything reeks of poor production, from the sound effects to recycled movie music, nasty animation, really bad/variable artwork and cheap special effects.
The manga holds out against other stories only because it was my first manga, it's long, and I haven't read too many mangas. Anime-manga wise there are a lot of anime I've seen that are better than OP's manga, but not all of them overlap in the same types of genres OP does. The only one I can come up with is Gurren-Lagann, soundly beat OP in every category. Heck, there's even pirates. Space pirates. And Garlock is the boss
Gurren-Lagann i've never heard of that before. I like the anime as long as its not the English version. Once again the only show that has better production and last as long is Naruto. It cost a lot of money to have the episodes be produced of extremely high quality ever single episode. The EL arc was two years in length do you really expect the production to be high in quality completely through out. But i guess the fans are going to watch the anime no matter the production.
Once again i ask you plz don't compare OP to a 26 episode anime its not the same. They can't have the story be as long as OP and they sure as hell don't have enough money to produce the episodes.
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@Gia:
I agree with you 150%,
My favorite arc is definitely Enies Lobby. The fights were amazing. All the finishers were great. Next is Alabasta. Though I think that is was not nearly as good as Enies Lobby. Oda Is a pure genius. I betchya that none of us at the age of 19 could come up with a story as good as himYup, instead of thinking up good stories, they just bitch and whine about this one.
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I don t think Oda has lost his touch. I mean the skypeia and and the EL arc were awesome, the only arcs I found boring were the ones in the beginning.
Acually you you can t really compare each arc with each other because they are so different like the arabasta one was to defeat cro and while the skypeia one was just exploring at the start.
The only thing that annoys me in one piece is that the villains waste sooooo much time in killing like the time luffy shrunk I mean why couldn t lucci just do 1 shigan on him instead slam me against the wall and jump back preparing the that shigan machine gun technique.
Besides that I am quite pleased with one piece as a whole. -
Oda lost his touch…?
Nah! He has been getting better! We waited and lived through the W7 arc, most people at the time said that was the best arc of the series. It began as a normal everyday arc then quickly spiraled into some greater. And what happened at the end of it???
We got a comical "Garp shows up". The way Garp was handled was genious. Luffy couldn't even say a causal good bye without getting slam. Garp is one of my fav. characters... Oda handles things quite well.
How many of you weren't excited by Dragon + Garp news?
The majority of you were.
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Wow…. thanks for that long respond. I think you nailed the point ...
Thanks! Sorry to have been so "wordy" –I was a literature major in college, so extended analysis is second-nature to me. I couldn't stop doing it, even if I tried...
And if you have any question about how most japanese ppl think, or even need any translation help, just PM me.:happy:
Oh, thanks! That's very generous!
I often need translations of artist / title / circle in the doujinshi thread (I'm a regular there) so I might take you up on your offer next time we have an unfamiliar doujin up for discussion there. I'll PM you if that happens. As for the other part, yes, any general information that you and your friends would like to share with me about doujinshi in general, or OP doujinshi in particular, would be much appreciated. Again, we'll discuss it further via PM.
:happy:I think another thing that should be understood is it's human condition to be get bored of things that become very familiar to you. One Piece has been going on forever already. It's like an old spouse. For me, personally, new things show up and I become enticed and get that special high you get when you discover something new that excites you.
A good comparison! And just like with any long-term relationship, the way to keep the love alive is to (1) constantly look for new things about this person to thrill you and (2) remind yourself of how it felt to discover those thrilling things for the first time. Most healthy relationships also shift at some point from passion to companionship. In the first phase you NEED the person like a drug, and in the second phase, the need is not as strong, but it is replaced by a decision to remain with them : yeah, you don't need them anymore, but you still enjoy their company more than anyone else's, so there's no reason not to stay.
The same with manga – you may not rush to the store three hours before release-time anymore, but if (when you do get around to reading the new chapter) you still get enjoyment from it, then there's no reason to abandon the story or to assume the quality has deteriorated.
Like all things though, you only get one time to experience it fresh. This unintentional bias though can have severe influence on how a person views or ranks things. I think the only true way to gauge things is to try and remember how much fun you had with it when you first experienced it. It's easy to judge things later, but any person who's grown older here knows experience can be actually be a big detriment to enjoyment.
Well said! Nothing I can add to that except that I agree whole-heartedly
It's good and bad, I can understand things now but the magic you get from not understanding something or experiencing it for the first time is gone.
I had a similar experience with literature – once I learned the "building blocks" of a story, and learned how to analyze each one, it became very difficult for me to "lose myself" in a book, thinking only of the story, and not of the mechanics of how that story was being told. And ironically, it was my ability to analyze fiction so well that soured me to reading fiction for a long time!
But I've found that with OP, I can satisfy both sides now -- I can read the chapter a first time and just sink into it, and enjoy the plot and the characters and the artwork ..., then, after that, I can read it again in a more analytical frame of mind and discuss it for hours on this forum.
So OP has renewed my passion --
for fiction.
Thanks Oda!
Indeed. Here's to another ten years. Thanks Oda!
Kanpai!
tips glass against laptop screen -
@MonkeyDMalcolm:
Gurren-Lagann i've never heard of that before.
It's a new title, not a lot of buzz because Gainax did it and people have a very negative view of Gainax right now. Geass is getting all the attention, but GL is light years ahead of it. I've been an advertising blimp for GL since I finished episode III in May. D:
@MonkeyDMalcolm:
I like the anime as long as its not the English version. Once again the only show that has better production and last as long is Naruto. It cost a lot of money to have the episodes be produced of extremely high quality ever single episode. The EL arc was two years in length do you really expect the production to be high in quality completely through out. But i guess the fans are going to watch the anime no matter the production.
Note: Don't do a line-article analysis of this section, read through if first.
Even the highest quality anime episodes in the Toei version are pretty poor by normal studio standards. Toei has never been known for being the best animation studio, just the "largest" since it's believed they are the training ground for new recruits into the animation business. Both Sunrise and Mushi Productions had much, much higher quality stuff than Toei.
Remember that Luffy v. Lucci fight everyone was so excited over? That's like a normal episode in a modern Sunrise or Kyoto Animation production, and those companies are juggling multiple series on their shoulders at the same time.
The reason OP's quality is below average, though, is because of how Toei generates income. In Japan, there's two ways to make money off of anime:
1. Make the show for a competitive, popular timeslot so the advertisers pay a premium for the show, since it attract an audience to that timeslot. For this option, ratings matter most.
2. Make the show for normal TV and hope to make money off of DVDs and related merchandise (also applies to number one). For this option, DVD sales matter most.Most anime companies are forced to do the latter because there's a limited number of channels and the big fish usually get the best timeslots. The latter is a good way of making a LOT of money but the former is pretty consistent with returns (but consistently high). Toei's income is based entirely on merchandise and advertising revenue, so they're not above putting out a piss-poor product since they're not expecting people to but the DVDs anyway.
I'm still going to complain, though, since some super-long shows in the past done by Toei looked a lot better than OP does today (Zatch Bell/Sailor Moon). I won't mention Bobobo since while Bobobo's artwork was great (as in, quality and well adapted) the animation was frequently suspect.
I also prefer the Studio Pierrot style of "long periods of good art, little animation with short bursts of high-intensity action with lower quality artwork buy good animation", as opposed to OP's "decent quality artwork/animation for all scenes".
@MonkeyDMalcolm:
They can't have the story be as long as OP and they sure as hell don't have enough money to produce the episodes.
They do, they just won't.
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So, is the rumor that SJ is known for making mangaka change their work true?
[…]
As for the topic, I think bits of the current arc has suffered from lame (subjective opinion mind you) characterization and pacing but whatever it's been a busy year and I can tolerate it. His touch is still there, it's just hard to feel it sometimes.
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Oh look another one of these posts… I think I'll jump in. For any anime, manga , tv show etc there will be a time when a current story line doesn't appeal to a particular fan. This results in people disliking a certain aspect of the story. If a chapter is slow there are those who complain about it. It is simply the nature of media. Over time if characters are introduced such as arc villains that a viewer doesn't like then posts like these are made. This is not a flame at the Original Poster or anything but this is to be pointed out.
We as readers (switching to only OP now) want to see the next best thing immediately. I read all the comments for each chapter thread every week and every time there is a setup chapter dear god is there complaining. Whining about how the chapter is bad because not much happened. If every single chapter was action packed then it would feel so rushed and there would be no chance for development. I can understand the frustration when a villian takes too long to attack the hero or what not but think about it this way: it adds serious drama. The final attack feels that much more epic at the KO.
So it brings us to the original question: Has Oda lost his touch? Lets look at the series as a whole: If anything Oda has worked and reworked and updated his series and gotten way better as he goes along. Can you guys HONESTLY say that with each consecutive arc Oda has gotten worse? Can you really say that the series is stale? Mangas such as Naruto have gotten so trite and boring that its not even worth it anymore and people notice. Oda has never let OP fall into a rut and its because of the brilliance of the story structure. Allow me to elaborate.
OP is a pirate anime of course but note that it doesn't necessarily focus on that. Sure you have some evil pirate crews but have you noticed that each island has a different theme. Its sort of like Excel Saga anime (haven't read the manga) where the theme of the show changes from like sci-fi in one ep to an army drama in the next. The changes in scenery add alot to the story such as Alabasta's sandy deserts to Water 7's Venice like canals. Heck Skypeia feels like another world almost. Its not just Generic Island A to Generic Island B. This versatility allows for alot of uniqueness. I mean honestly who thought we would ever see pirates go to a heaven like place or to a zombie island like thing. This allows Oda to set the stage/genre for whatever he wants to explore next.
Now the next part is very important, OP has never claimed to be an Oscar Winning, super epic classic must be on every school list from 8 through 10th grade story. Its not Shakespeare its not a great Greek Tragedy or whatever. Its written as a fun adventure. OP is immeasurably creative and this never stops. What other series can come up such crazy ideas as an explosive baseball shooting dog-gun, a Giraffe CIA type swordsman, a clown who can split himself into lots of pieces , etc and still make these crazy sounding ideas believable and not just believable but reaaaaally cool. OP is all about creativity and fun. The more we want this to be a drop dead super serious uberly written show the more we will complain. Many of the members here on this forum are setting their expectations so high that they can never be met.
Switching gears now, those complaining about the anime, I honestly can't get this in my head. First, why does everyone complain about the animation? For the love of god just enjoy the story. Toei may not have the best production values but again if every episode was OMG amazing animation you would get even more spoiled. The animation really isn't that bad. Shinchan has bad animation but people still watch it for the comedy.
Another topic is power ups. STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THEM. Everyone compares them to DBZ powerups. Dear god the apparently psychological trauma that show caused on this generation of anime and manga viewers is insane enough to cause a new epidemic. People are going to get stronger. What is the point if you don't: would you like Luffy to Gum Gum Pistol everyone to death? Every battle would be trite and pointless. People are going to "level up" regardless because that is what experience is; its discovering new things and new ways to use your abilities.
I'm going to wrap things up for now with a few comments. Again if you set your expectations so high than nothing Oda does will ever be able to meet them and you will be disappointed. Instead of wanting it to be the best manga ever look back at all the good times you have had with the series. Oda doesn't have to do this he wants to. This is his passion and love. Look at OP as a grand adventure because lets face it the majority of anime and manga has really gone downhill as of late. Sure OP may be like an old spouse but its one that you can grow to love more and more each year. Thank you for reading another of my long freakin posts.
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It's a new title, not a lot of buzz because Gainax did it and people have a very negative view of Gainax right now. Geass is getting all the attention, but GL is light years ahead of it. I've been an advertising blimp for GL since I finished episode III in May. D:
Please enlighten me, since you are a fan of the show, what is so good about Gurren? I mean it looks like another average mecha anime to me, so why do I hear all this talk about it?
Granted I only watched one episode, but that was enough to make me regret wasting 25 min to watch it.
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I rather watch Gurren Lagann over Code Geass anyday.
Anyway, Oda never lost his touch. Not even now in this Thriller Bark arc. In fact, the storyline is getting more exciting as the story progress. Unlike Conan, where we get murder case one after another with the occasional kidnap and other crimes, we are no where near getting near the Black Organization (maybe now they can, as they have a spy in there now), but the storyline on that doesn't get to be progressing at all, and it's already 500++ chapters . Compare that to One Piece, I would say the storyline progressed at a better pace for readers.
Bleach on the other hand is another variation of the previous SS arc. This Hueco Mundo or Arrancar Arc or Save Orihime arc or whatever it is call, it just SS arc all over again. Get stronger, beat enemies or get beaten by enemies, heal up, fight, try to save the princess in distress…etc.
Naruto is getting more exciting though, looks like major fights all over with Naruto and gang , Sasuke and gang, and the other people involved in this current arc.
with that said, you have to factor in those anti-main cast fans opinions, because no matter what Oda does, as long as it's involved the main cast, they will downplay it till the end of time. However, lets say it involves that Vice Admiral with a lot of scars, then they will praise him to no godly end. So, it's never going to be accurate. Not only One Piece suffers from this, Bleach is another one with more anti-main cast fans than One Piece.
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@Natty:
Please enlighten me, since you are a fan of the show, what is so good about Gurren? I mean it looks like another average mecha anime to me, so why do I hear all this talk about it?
Granted I only watched one episode, but that was enough to make me regret wasting 25 min to watch it.
I've watched all but the latest episodes (which I may or may not watch), but I have the same opinion of it as you.
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I always think he loses his touch in the beginning of each new arc, but he does that thing where its so boring, but after building up all the characters and w/e,. the story gets SO ADDICTING, and the comedy for this manga actually makes me laugh, especially the anime..so as of now, I don't think hes lost his touch yet.
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@Natty:
Please enlighten me, since you are a fan of the show, what is so good about Gurren? I mean it looks like another average mecha anime to me, so why do I hear all this talk about it?
Gurren-Lagann doesn't deliver much from the department of originality. However, what it does do it does right - strong characterizations and noticeable development. It's one of those rare shows that isn't exclusively plot-drive or character-driven, it's BOTH, and somehow manages to accomplish both ends at the same time.
Geass on the other hand…
@Natty:
Granted I only watched one episode, but that was enough to make me regret wasting 25 min to watch it.
If you're not hooked by the third episode, yeah, it's not your kind of show.
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A lot of Japanese ppl rate OP in following ways: Arabasta > Skypiea/Jaya > Arlong & pre-grandline > DBF. I intentionally left out the w7/EL as lot of ppl are still figuring where to fit it.
So Japanese fans lump Arlong in with the rest of the earlier stories which were pretty disapointing?! Blasphemy!
I dun get this argument that ppl rave about OP because they havent seen alot of series. Like someone touched on OP was a breath of fresh air for me after being a manga and anime fand anime fan for almost ten years. Not to mention 90% of shounen series are dull, and insanely repetitive and lacking in original. OP almost makes it, it's mission statement to do the EXACT OPPOSITE of those series. When everyone raved about Naruto, I watched and enjoyed the series but was never overjoyed or felt it to be some materpiece.
I honestly felt being a shounen series limited writing because you had to use so much of the story for fights instead of character development. And the story would become hackneed when it's necessary to keep fitting the fights in, and ofcourse eventually the writer runs out of ideas and hunkers down into tournament arc-mode. But when I saw OP, I was blown away that it fit in character development in every arc, every character was charming and different, the stories stay fresh and they're actually near impossible to predict. Everyone has atleats been surprised by SEVERAL plot twist throughout the series. I really do see how a person who consistanly suprises and entertains the reader for ten years, not to mention does so on a WEEKLY basis is losing their touch.
I dun think Shuieisha is forcing Oda-sensei to change things. They give him freedom,but they are probably forcing him to rush through things to keep on schedule or pick up the pace. Not to mention they obviously push for things like more fight scenes and Chopper screen time.
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@Ao:
So Japanese fans lump Arlong in with the rest of the earlier stories which were pretty disapointing?! Blasphemy!
Disappointing? No… not at all. Just because we rank them at third does not mean we don't like it. Pre-Grandline was good, and the story got better as it proceeded from Gunkan-zima to Arlong Park, but I think many agrees that Alabasta and Skypiea topped that.
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Oda… Lose... Touch...?
Hell no, I bet this whole thing was planned out at the beginning (With some add ons). Each Arc is slowly showing some stuff that will happen at the end. Each has a different style for different tastes as well, so the hated ones are the style most people don't like... Take Enies Lobby, which is obviously DBZ Style. Even though most people like DBZ, they think of it as old now, so they think of it as bad. The ones that like Enies Lobby probably still like DBZ, or think One Piece's DBZ Style is better.
Morgan Arc
Style: Defeating a Tyrant
Introduces Gold Roger, One Piece Luffy, Shanks, Nami and Zoro, shows the mean spirit of the marines, and Coby's Marine status builds here (It's obvious Coby is going to play a major role later).Buggy Arc
Style: Circus Fighting
Introduces Buggy, who was part of Gold Roger's crew... So he is going to know something...Kuro Arc
Style: Mind Battle
Introduces Usopp, who has become one of Luffy's closest friends, and son of one of Shanks' crew members... This also introduced Going Go Merry, Jango is introduced, and Kaya. (I don't know why, but I have a feeling she may be part of the final stuff...)Baratie
Style: Weapon Fighting
Introduces Sanji, and Mihawk. This is where Zoro's vow to never lose again starts. Don Krieg is also here, and that other guy that promised to meet them in the Grand Line. I bring this up because they did say they will meet at the Grand Line... Even though it seems minor then, look at Laboon...Arlong
Style: Different Species Fighting
Nami's history, Fishmen, and Luffy's bounty. I bring up Nami, because her parents are most likely going to be important later on... I mean look at the other Arcs, they have more things about them then the Straw Hats, yet this arc seems to not have anything but Luffy's bounty and a species known as Fishmen... Anyone else think there's more to the stuff here then we know of?Loguetown
Style: Chase
Luffy smiles before dying (D Personality Stuff), Captain Smoker is introduced (Wants to hunt down Luffy), Tashigi (Resembles Kuina well, a bit too well... Even the age... Something is up with her...), MONKEY D. DRAGON. This shows he does not want to kill Luffy, and has some sort of power (Weather Control?). Oh yeah, skinny Alvida who joins Buggy.Reverse Mountain
Style: Inside a Whale Kinda Stuff
Laboon, who was! waiting for Brooke's crew to return. This is probably where the importance reasonings decrease…
Whiskey Peak
Style: Few against All
Princess Vivi and Crocodile's mention... Crocodile is obvious, and Vivi seems to be one of the characters to make another appearance (The whole Pell's vague return thing)Little Garden
Style: Giants Fight and Fighting Against an Object Changer
Elbaf's mention, and Usopp's new dream, also Nami's sickness originates here.Drum Island
Style: Machine Fight
Ace, Chopper, Will of D, and Gol D Roger...Alabasta
Style: War and One against One (Two against Two with Chopper and Usopp)
Robin, Pynoglyph, Pluton, Zoro's bounty, Defeat of a Shichibukai, Ace's hunt for Blackbeard (I think it was mentioned here) and Hina with Marine Jango and Fullbody.Jaya
Style: As said by noobs... PWNAGE
BlackBeard, WhiteBeard, and part of Blackbeard's plan.Skypiea
Style: War and Strategy
Dials, Enel (Still alive and killin'), a new weapon revealed, and the money for the next ship's wood. Also we have the Shichibukai stuff.DBF
Style: Game
Foxy (He's like Buggy, so he may ned up appearing again), the Davy Back Fight itself, and Aokiji (I think it's here... Or would it count in the next thing?)Water 7
Style: Joke Fight (Not really a fight to take seriously... The SeaTrain stuff anyway)
Franky, Luffy VS Usopp (This fight told me that Usopp is going to have a major role later on. Only question, is it with or against Luffy?), and Gold Roger's Ship Maker is revealed.Enies Lobby
Style: Good ol' DBZ Style
Dark Justice of the World Government, SH Bounties, Usopp burns the Flag, Robin's History, Soru (Or whatever the speed wlaking thing is) and Gear Forms. Shanks VS WhiteBeard, Ace VS Blackbeard, Lost Century, and the World Government is hiding something.Thriller Bark
Style: Can't confirm til end! Brooke… If he's not a Nakama, then he will be someone important later on. Moria...
(Note, lost what I was thinking, so it may not make sense anymore)
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These colors don't run.
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yet this arc seems to not have anything but Luffy's bounty and a species known as Fishmen… Anyone else think there's more to the stuff here then we know of?
Shichibukai concept are brought into play.
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Personally… I think a lot of people have this thing where they instantly dislike anything new or different. All of Water 7 to Enies Lobby was the most intense arc of the series in every concrete way you can judge the series.
We got
- an awesome new crewmember
- insane plot twists that nobody saw coming
- incredible character stuff
- Luffy's grandpa
- the backstory we've been wanting for years
- the explanation we've been wanting for even longer (THAT'S who Dragon is!?)
- more Ds than you can handle, pansy
- bounties like crazy
- and, well, the whole declaring war on the entire world.
Alabaster had none of that. All we got was Vivi's backstory, and who the fuck cared?