It's been so many years and I am still baffled by Oda's weird sexism

Saturnchild

No I am not talking about the ridiclous boobs and the other typical general pervy stuff in anime. I am talking about the fact that Oda only allows women to be physically strong if they are bizzarely deformed or look like monsters. It's been so long and I can't think of a single normal looking woman who has ever been purely physically strong or tough and can actually compete in the big league. They always need to have some gimmick that allows them to fight without actually fighting physically like a man. Even Boa Hancock was not allowed to really get down and dirty in physically fighting and had to use her powers and turn people into stone and instead. The only normal looking woman I could think off who actually really fought was Koala and they made sure that she only got to fight some low level nobodies and. Kalifa was supposed to be physically powerful as well but again she never got a chance to really use this and they did her dirty with the ridiclous soap thing. I thought now after so many years we might get at lest one or two but no. It's the same old stuff. Only monster looking women like Big Mom are allowed to physically get into it

And yes I remember very well the ridiclous Zoro childhood flashback where Oda practically preached about how women are physically weaker then men and thus they can never be their equals something which is absolutely ridiclous in One Piece universe but that was more then a decade ago. I thought the man would evolve since then, would learn to be better but if anything he gets worse and seems to have developed his fanatical devotion to never let conventional women be physically equal or god forbid superior to a man.Seriously is there nobody on his team or his environment who addressed this issue? Does Oda just live in an echo chamber?

All Fiction

Do you count zoans as gimmicks? Because Black Maria and Ulti are pretty brutal (brass knuckles and headbutts) without looking unattractive.

wolfwood

@All:

Do you count zoans as gimmicks? Because Black Maria and Ulti are pretty brutal (brass knuckles and headbutts) without looking unattractive.

They morph into their weird looking forms before they kick any ass tho

All Fiction

@wolfwood:

They morph into their weird looking forms before they kick any ass tho

Ulti can do it without morphing so as seen in her clash against Luffy.

wolfwood

@All:

Ulti can do it without morphing so as seen in her clash against Luffy.

Oh right Ulti has those weird horns in her baseform.

I dunno why i always sort of assumed that was some sort of beast transformation.

Chams

The fact that Sanji kicked Big Mom - a woman - and Oda probably didn't find it weird and badly justified it when answering reader's questions, was a particularly low point for me.

Zack

@wolfwood:

Oh right Ulti has those weird horns in her baseform.

I dunno why i always sort of assumed that was some sort of beast transformation.

It feels like Oda's gotten better about representation in the recent arcs even though he still has issues at times.
@Chams:

The fact that Sanji kicked Big Mom - a woman - and Oda probably didn't find it weird and badly justified it when answering reader's questions, was a particularly low point for me.

I looked it up, and it didn't look that badly justified to me. Against someone line Big Mom, Sanji kicking is pretty much the equivalent to blocking in his fight with Kalifa as far as Big Mom being an opponent he couldn't hurt even if he tried compared to his other opponents.

Saturnchild

@Zack:

It feels like Oda's gotten better about representation in the recent arcs even though he still has issues at times.

Really? I feel like he has gotten worse. Like way way way worse. And not just because his women used to look normal and now they look like a grotesque masturbation fantasy of a 14 year old. Before the girls had better fights as well. Both Nami vs Miss Doublefinger and Nico Robin vs Yama was far better then any of the nonsense in recent years. Sure it still left a lot to be desired but at least it was a tough fight where they pushed themselves. Nowadays they are treated as some afterhtought and never really given the chance to truly shine. And it's not like they don't have the time. Oda could easily remove a few of his gazzilion nonesense filler stories and dozens and dozens of random characters who are never seen again and give Nami and Nico robin proper long solo fights against worthy opponents where they push themselves and become stronger

I mean Oda is obviously too consumed by his weird sexist ideology on how women shouldn't have the same physical strength in his universe unless they are monsterlike and that is obviously never going to change because he is at a place where he lives in an echo chamber but at the very least he could give them some real solo fights

Cyan D. Funk

@wolfwood:

Oh right Ulti has those weird horns in her baseform.

I dunno why i always sort of assumed that was some sort of beast transformation.

I'm like 90% certain that all the horns on the non-Kaidou/Yamato Beast Pirates are just weird hats that Kaidou makes them wear.

kevo_koma

What are you even talking about.
We literally have Yamato running around right now and she's fairly normal. No gimmick so far.

There are also plenty of competent women in the Charlotte family.

Most notably, the One with the sword. The one that was part of the ingredient gathering squad.

We have seen Boa Hancock fight people like Smoker.

We also have Ulti, who was just recently going toe to toe with the Fifth Emperor. She pushed to the point he considered using Gear 4 to deal with her.

wolfwood

@Cyan:

I'm like 90% certain that all the horns on the non-Kaidou/Yamato Beast Pirates are just weird hats that Kaidou makes them wear.

Welcome to the BP, horns are not optional.

Would you like your torture before or after i attempt suicide.

SirCaesar

physically strong if they are bizzarely deformed or look like monsters

I find this sentence a bit weird. Oda has consistently been having strong muscular women show up, e.g. Miss Monday. I don't quite think those body types count as "bizarrely deformed" or "monsters", they're just… what heavy-lifting muscular women look like? I get it, you want a woman that's the Shanks/Luffy-equivalent - a normal, slim body type that is insanely strong, but I'd say that's more your personal preference than an actual issue of representation in One Piece.

Kaido King of the Beasts

While there is undeniably a difference in the amount and types of fights female characters get compared to males, it's a little hard to take the OP argument seriously because Ulti pretty much checks every box for the claimed "missing" traits in "normal looking" female fighters.

@Cyan:

I'm like 90% certain that all the horns on the non-Kaidou/Yamato Beast Pirates are just weird hats that Kaidou makes them wear.

This is confirmed in SBS 98

Shiebs

Well Oda has definitely gotten better in his approach to the LGBTQ community at the least

also like Everyone said Ulti

I find Ulti to be similar to Boa Hancock in that they both got Devil Fruits that are absolutely perfect for them, Boa's whole shtick relies on being Beautiful, and Ulti is a person who uses super strong head butt's that can go toe to toe with Luffy, who ended up getting a df that's literally a dinosaur that specializes in headbutts

Nouryoku

E. Oda likes to grant abilities based on the characters personality or nature as well as based on IRL needs (i.e a power that would be usefull in mundane situations) so he frequentely grant his female chaacters powers that a female archetype would find useful IRL or that would satisfy a stereotypically feminine whim. Hence powers associated with vanity/beauty (Bonney, Alvida, Miss Valentine, Hancock) and powers acossiated with housewives (Robin, Kalifa, Tsuru)

Zik

I always thought Hina was a strong female character and she was introduced fairly early in the manga. Granted she's not prominent in the story and no she isn't super strong on the level of a Vice-Admiral yet or is she seen fighting schichibukai level or supernova type characters but she's physical in fighting style. I don't think her devil fruit power makes her monstrous or bizarrely deformed.

I wouldn't call it sexism on Oda's part. I do find it weird while it's pretty much a staple in anime and manga One Piece doesn't really have at least 3 super strong non-monstrous female characters among antagonists or protagonists. Cuz I can name 3 for most of Jump's popular manga past and present, especially the male led manga.

Kubo and Kishimoto were doing it while Oda didn't. Gotouge did it. Horikoshi basically has it built in to MHA.

Toriyama did it. I would assume Oda's view on this probably follows Watsuki's view given he didn't use a lot of super strong swordswomen or female fighters in Rurouni Kenshin.

electricmastro

Hmm.

FelRes

OP: Oda sexist, only monsters women can be strong
This arc: Nami getting bloodied up by a some cute headbutting dinogirl who chose violence, Sanji getting beat to death by a sexy punching lady

Oda definitely doesn't like it when girls get hurt by men, but I think you're being overly picky in your argument OP.

Nouryoku

@Zik:

Kubo and Kishimoto were doing it while Oda didn't. Gotouge did it. Horikoshi basically has it built in to MHA.

Toriyama did it. I would assume Oda's view on this probably follows Watsuki's view given he didn't use a lot of super strong swordswomen or female fighters in Rurouni Kenshin.

Toriyama

Toriyama is more like Oda in that regard no? Majority of Z fighters and strong villains are male. We got Android 18 but she's akin to Reiju (modified body). Bulma is like Nami, a normal woman that is helpfull due to her ingenuity.

Kishi suffers accusations similar to this thread from the Naruto fandom.

@electricmastro:

Hmm.

https://i.ibb.co/JF02Y0J/A21-EB5-A1-A4-F2-473-C-AC84-E4-A1-B2756-F52.jpg

The OP is whining about a lack of that "arm wrestling" type of strength. The majority of those women are more considered skilful, they don't have tremendous physical strength.

Robby

@Saturnchild:

I can't think of a single normal looking woman who has ever been purely physically strong or tough and can actually compete in the big league.

New world has been full of them. Heck, Perona took out the entire crew by by herself. Sugar took out an entire country. Ulti pushed Luffy. Carrot and Wanda are plenty physical. Lots of Big Mom's kids. Yamato is a bruiser with the best of them. Plenty of examples.

Even Boa Hancock was not allowed to really get down and dirty in physically fighting and had to use her powers and turn people into stone and instead.

The one time we actually saw her fight, in the war, she physically wrecked a lot of people, including Smoker and the Pacifistas that wrecked the entire Strawhat crew at the time. She can and does mass petrify fodder, yes, but she also does fine in actual combat.

Only monster looking women like Big Mom are allowed to physically get into it

No really, have you not been reading this arc?

And yes I remember very well the ridiclous Zoro childhood flashback where Oda practically preached about how women are physically weaker then men and thus they can never be their equals something which is absolutely ridiclous in One Piece universe but that was more then a decade ago.

That was closer to twenty four years ago. And that was what Kuina thought of the world from her little bubble. The world has expanded since then. Defensive forms and haki and fruits and whatnot.

Plus now we know that dojo was based out of Wano so it had super old timey dated views.

And Zoro never once beat Kuina. She was his goal and his dream. The whole point was Zoro telling her that her complaint and excuse was nonsense. That he might catch up due to sheer muscle, but he expected her to still be superior to him even when that time came. Zoro thought she could and would become one of, if not THE greatest in the world and that'd he'd never match her, no excuses allowed.

Otherwise his carrying on her will and her dreams, still carrying her sword, would be completely meaningless if he didn't believe she could have managed it if not for her tragedy..

Does Oda just live in an echo chamber?

Oda lives in Japan, and he's pretty progressive considering that.

@Saturnchild:

Before the girls had better fights as well. Both Nami vs Miss Doublefinger and Nico Robin vs Yama was far better then any of the nonsense in recent years. Sure it still left a lot to be desired but at least it was a tough fight where they pushed themselves. Nowadays they are treated as some afterhtought and never really given the chance to truly shine.

Since the timeskip Sanji hasn't won any actual fights, Usopp has had one major sniping feat during Dreserossa, Chopper hasn't had a single fight since that nothing fight on Fishman Island, and nothing since W7 prior to that, and Brook has had a proper 1 on 1 fight basically never except against mooks.

The characters not getting fights isn't limited to the girls. Luffy, Zoro, Franky and Law have gotten basically every fight in the last 10 years. Even mega power house Jinbe hasn't yet got any focused big fights, he's always been support.

Zack

@Robby:

That was closer to twenty four years ago. And that was what Kuina thought of the world from her little bubble. The world has expanded since then. Defensive forms and haki and fruits and whatnot.

I feel the funniest part of that now is Big Mom seems to be the biggest natural powerhouse of the series.

Since the timeskip Sanji hasn't won any actual fights, Usopp has had one major sniping feat during Dreserossa, Chopper hasn't had a single fight since that nothing fight on Fishman Island, and nothing since W7 prior to that, and Brook has had a proper 1 on 1 fight basically never except against mooks.

The characters not getting fights isn't limited to the girls. Luffy, Zoro, Franky and Law have gotten basically every fight in the last 10 years. Even mega power house Jinbe hasn't yet got any focused big fights, he's always been support.

I feel when people talk about fights, it also seems they limit it to 1 vs 1 fights. Nami does a lot of fighting in Whole Cake Island between the forest, the subsequent army, and playing a pivotal role in slowing down Big Mom.

Robby

Yeah. The one on nes are the big showcases that show off all their moves and how far they've come, but the whole crew tears through small fry all the time.

Its entirely possible Cracker would have beaten Luffy without Nami's help.

electricmastro

@FelRes:

Oda definitely doesn't like it when girls get hurt by men, but I think you're being overly picky in your argument OP.

He likes giving character progression and expanding on pasts though, which overrule that.

Carnage

First of all, you know how physically strong women look in real life, right?
You also know, that Oda draws many characters who have a bad personality as ugly?
You also know how Big Mom looked when she was younger, right?
You also know Odas sketches of the strawhats as 40 and 60 years olds, where you could see, how they would look like if something went wrong in their life? This would explain Big Moms look.
Last but not least, you know characters like Carrot, Smoothie, Yamato, Khalifa, Stussy, Tashigi, Kuina, Ulti, Belo Betty…

Why are you bodyshaming Big Mom tho?
If being obese is something women celebrate, than Big Mom is superhot!

FelRes

@electricmastro:

He likes giving character progression and expanding on pasts though, which overrule that.

[qimg]https://i.ibb.co/WFmh3vN/AD07120-B-DE61-415-F-BF0-B-7686663-AA98-D.webp[/qimg]

Well yeah, ain't no one safe in a flashback. Brook has experience with that. Builds character.

Riddler

@Saturnchild:

And yes I remember very well the ridiclous Zoro childhood flashback where Oda practically preached about how women are physically weaker then men and thus they can never be their equals something which is absolutely ridiclous in One Piece universe but that was more then a decade ago.

Isn't that kind of the opposite of the flashbacks message, though? That's the way Kuina's father saw the world, who, as we now know, was born and raised in the very old-fashioned and unprogressive Wano country. But the big dramatic scene of the flashback is Zoro telling Kuina that that is bullshit, that she is the strongest fighter he ever met and he's traning every day so that he will be able to beat her one day, and that when this day comes, he doesn't want to hear that he just won because of her gender/sex.

Saying that Zoro's flashback preaches that women are naturally inferior to men is like saying that Nami's flashback preaches that adopted family aren't really your family and only blood relation counts because that's what Nami says at some point in a heated argument with Bellmere. It's just completely missing the point.

Also, while there are obviously messages Oda wants to get across and sometimes lets his characters say out loud, we should always keep in mind that a character voicing an opinion doesn't automatically mean that he is vocalizing and mirroring the author's own opinion. I often see that happening with Sanji's character, i. e. he has a very antiquated view on women and treats them like dainty, delicate flowers in need of protection, so that means that Oda views women the same way, right? But none of the other main characters in the series seem to share these feelings about women, so why is Sanji specifically regarded as Oda's mouthpiece in this case? Simply because he is the one most vocal about his opinion?

That doesn't mean that you can't make assumptions about an author's values and worldview from his overall work or that Oda hasn't shown signs of sexism in the past, but we should be careful not to oversimplify things or make assumptions about him based on the opinions of singular characters.

RevolutionaryOfThe6Paths

@Saturnchild:

Really? I feel like he has gotten worse. Like way way way worse. And not just because his women used to look normal and now they look like a grotesque masturbation fantasy of a 14 year old. Before the girls had better fights as well. Both Nami vs Miss Doublefinger and Nico Robin vs Yama was far better then any of the nonsense in recent years. Sure it still left a lot to be desired but at least it was a tough fight where they pushed themselves. Nowadays they are treated as some afterhtought and never really given the chance to truly shine. And it's not like they don't have the time. Oda could easily remove a few of his gazzilion nonesense filler stories and dozens and dozens of random characters who are never seen again and give Nami and Nico robin proper long solo fights against worthy opponents where they push themselves and become stronger

I mean Oda is obviously too consumed by his weird sexist ideology on how women shouldn't have the same physical strength in his universe unless they are monsterlike and that is obviously never going to change because he is at a place where he lives in an echo chamber but at the very least he could give them some real solo fights

I was considering answering to your post very seriously and at length and i certainly believe this topic is very good for discussion but you sound so entitled and spoiled its cringeworthy at best. Of course a lot of female characters are probably gonna get progressively more monstrous because as powers escalate characters become monstrous. Or perhaps it doesnt have so much to do with sex but with the fact that a lot of the characters you are talking about are villains? For one, physical deformity has been associated with villains in popular media for ages and its a very effective way of depicitng depravity, insanity and deterioration. Secondly villains usually get ridiculed when defeated, especially in comedic stories. Btw has it occured to you that maybe readers just dont enjoy seeing women getting severly injured and that might be a reason why Oda tones fights between women down or refrains from writing these types of fights as much as possible? Personally, i dont particularly enjoy seeing women get bloodied up and i've heard very few guys say they enjoy that in one piece or in general. Not to mention that a lot of readers are young boys and i doubt any of them would enjoy that either. In fact i would be worried and weirded out if a kid came up to me and said something like that. You can call that sexism or promoting sexist ideology or whatever but at the end of the day the dynamic majority of one piece readers are male and one piece is a product that caters to its prominent readers' desires (like most if not all fiction does). You call Oda a weird sexist ideologue but your opinions sound far more ideological and toxic to me. Oda didnt scratch your itch and you're out here accusing him of being sexist. Is there anyone left on this planet who still considers sexism a strong accusation that shouldnt be thrown around so casually? How about just calling him a bad writer? That doesnt cut it apparently

@Saturnchild:

And yes I remember very well the ridiclous Zoro childhood flashback where Oda practically preached about how women are physically weaker then men and thus they can never be their equals something which is absolutely ridiclous in One Piece universe but that was more then a decade ago. I thought the man would evolve since then, would learn to be better but if anything he gets worse and seems to have developed his fanatical devotion to never let conventional women be physically equal or god forbid superior to a man.Seriously is there nobody on his team or his environment who addressed this issue? Does Oda just live in an echo chamber?

Yeah lets ignore the whole context and setting of the flashback or what Oda was trying to do with Zoro's character and just call him sexist. Great job

smart-door-locks

This post is deleted!

wolfwood

I mean Oda is a 45 year old man from a quite conservative country, where the female ideal has historically been be quiet, delicate and submissive. Odds are pretty decent that Oda has been brought up on some by modern standards quite sexist beliefs, like for instance boys would worry if girls fought and it'd be a shame to injure a pretty face etc etc. But he can only work with what he's got and for a relative old-timer I'd say that he isn't doing too bad.

Nilitch

I thought Oda was some kind of marxist ? I mean, at least, he has a portrait of Ernesto Guevara in his studio… So not very conservative. Well I guess he can have some conservative opinions though

--- Update From New Post Merge ---

@wolfwood:

it'd be a shame to injure a pretty face

Not very sexist imo, but whatever

electricmastro

@FelRes:

Well yeah, ain't no one safe in a flashback. Brook has experience with that. Builds character.

Or what happened with Marineford, Pedro, and Yasuie as well.

King Cannon

A bit strange to mention the lack of solo fights as evidence for anything when Luffy is the only guy that consistently gets them lately.

wolfwood

@Nilitch:

I thought Oda was some kind of marxist ? I mean, at least, he has a portrait of Ernesto Guevara in his studio… So not very conservative. Well I guess he can have some conservative opinions though

Dunno how it is in Japan but in Sweden Che Guevara merch is more of a fashion statement than a political statement. But commie Oda sounds fun tbh.

Not very sexist imo, but whatever

It turns sexist when this mindset is only applied to one gender. Ace arguably has more of a pretty face than most women in OP but because he has a wang you don't have to go and think oh what a waste of a pretty face when he gets gutted like a fish or mutilated any which way. If Oda is fine with mangling and deforming his male bishies every which way but is squemish to do the same to the girls because of their delicate beauty or whatever then that is a clear double standard based on sex

uniaka ikuzakas

@Riddler:

Isn't that kind of the opposite of the flashbacks message, though? That's the way Kuina's father saw the world, who, as we now know, was born and raised in the very old-fashioned and unprogressive Wano country. But the big dramatic scene of the flashback is Zoro telling Kuina that that is bullshit, that she is the strongest fighter he ever met and he's traning every day so that he will be able to beat her one day, and that when this day comes, he doesn't want to hear that he just won because of her gender/sex.

Saying that Zoro's flashback preaches that women are naturally inferior to men is like saying that Nami's flashback preaches that adopted family aren't really your family and only blood relation counts because that's what Nami says at some point in a heated argument with Bellmere. It's just completely missing the point.

Also, while there are obviously messages Oda wants to get across and sometimes lets his characters say out loud, we should always keep in mind that a character voicing an opinion doesn't automatically mean that he is vocalizing and mirroring the author's own opinion. I often see that happening with Sanji's character, i. e. he has a very antiquated view on women and treats them like dainty, delicate flowers in need of protection, so that means that Oda views women the same way, right? But none of the other main characters in the series seem to share these feelings about women, so why is Sanji specifically regarded as Oda's mouthpiece in this case? Simply because he is the one most vocal about his opinion?

That doesn't mean that you can't make assumptions about an author's values and worldview from his overall work or that Oda hasn't shown signs of sexism in the past, but we should be careful not to oversimplify things or make assumptions about him based on the opinions of singular characters.

I think with sanji it fells like oda doesn't have a problem with it, or else he would put sanji in scenarios where he would be forced to fight women or just suffer consequences of not fighting women, and not be like it's ok if you don't want to fight them, either they are good people down there(Viola) or you got nami and robin to save you.

With Kuina the problem is that male swordmen like zoro can tank absurd damage like back with kuma, or mihawk can cut mountains, but female swordman falls down the stairs and dies. Just imagine EoS, WSS mihawk dies falling down the stairs before zoro and shilliew get to him to challenge him for WSS title.

electricmastro

@King:

A bit strange to mention the lack of solo fights as evidence for anything when Luffy is the only guy that consistently gets them lately.

At least with female characters, even with a lack of fights and strong close quarter combat skills, he seems to emphasize on strong will more than anything else:

“It really bothers me to make designs of beautiful women since the amount of female faces I like are limited considering the long serialization of ONE PIECE. I can make designs of male characters as many as I want. I can draw various female characters' faces such as Amazon Lily women, but things are different when it comes to "beautiful woman".

I hyped up my audience that Hancock is incredibly beautiful although I didn't specify her detailed designs before she appeared. It means I had to convince my audience of Hancock's beauty once she actually appeared in manga. I managed to find a solution about what kind of face the most beautiful woman in the world would have. I was relieved to see Hancock became a popular character.

However, I hyped up my audience again thoughtlessly that Mermaid Princess is as beautiful as Hancock!! One more female character as beautiful as Hancock..!? Actually, I'm kind of a person who can expect my potential in the future. Then, I produced a beautiful character named Shirahoshi. She was the first woman during my more-than-10-years-serialization whose eyebrow was downward-sloping!! (the eyebrows which make her look like as if in trouble) I hadn't drawn a woman like Shirahoshi since I love strong-willed women, but I enjoyed the drawing process of Shirahoshi, thinking, "She looks nice than expected."

Now then, I should make a beautiful woman appear in "there" in the future…!!” - https://onepiece.fandom.com/wiki/One_Piece_Complete_Collection

Riddler

@uniaka:

I think with sanji it fells like oda doesn't have a problem with it, or else he would put sanji in scenarios where he would be forced to fight women or just suffer consequences of not fighting women, and not be like it's ok if you don't want to fight them, either they are good people down there(Viola) or you got nami and robin to save you.

With Kuina the problem is that male swordmen like zoro can tank absurd damage like back with kuma, or mihawk can cut mountains, but female swordman falls down the stairs and dies. Just imagine EoS, WSS mihawk dies falling down the stairs before zoro and shilliew get to him to challenge him for WSS title.

First of, regarding the point about Kuina dying by falling down the stairs, that is indeed a very lame end to her character, but I always attributed that to early Oda just not being that good of a writer yet. Kuina dying in general is no different to me than Bellmere or Tom dying, Oda just wasn't skilled enough to make it a really climactic death. But I personally never took away from her death that we were meant to think "Wow her dad was right, women are weak as shit, they can't even walk down a stairwell jeez", like is that truly what people think Oda was trying to convey with that?

To me, it always just felt like a general statement about the cruel randomness and pointlessness of death sometimes, like, someone you really care about who is really skilled and strong can just die such a meaningless death out of nowhere. It's tragic, but unlike pretty much all the other flashback character deaths, it was a very pointless and unneccessary death, which was the point. But again, Oda hadn't honed his skills yet at this point in his career as an author, so it seems kinda awkward and random, especially in retrospect and in comparison to later flashback characters.

On to the Sanji thing. I disagree. I don't think these moments where Sanji is forced to confront a female character and can't fight them tell us anything about how Oda views women. I think what they do tell us is that Oda finds it admirable when people stand by their convictions in dire situations, plain and simple. That has been a consistent theme throughout the series, most explicitly presented in the characters of Sanji and Bellamy. Even when Bellamy knew Doflamingo had played him like a puppet and didn't care about his life at all and even when Luffy had started calling him a friend, he still fought against Luffy for Doflamingos sake because his moral convictions forbid him to go against the man he admired, even if his admiration for the man had turned out be a big misjudgment. And from the way that whole situation was depicted, I always got the sense that we were at least supposed to find Bellamys actions foolish, yet respectable.

And it's the same for Sanji. Even though his moral code is antiquated and dumb and reckless and dangerous, he stands by it even if it would mean his death. And I think that is what Oda admires about his character, not his moral code about women itself, but his convictions that force him to go by his code no matter what. And thats why he will never have Sanji strike a woman - not because Oda agrees it would be vile and wrong to hit a woman (Luffy, for example has done so in the past several times), but because it would mean that Sanji had betrayed his convictions, and I think Oda would frown upon that.

I think Namis reaction when Sanji lost to Kalifa in Enies Lobby is exactly how Oda wants us to view Sanji in these situations: "You are a huge idiot Sanji, but I respect how committed you are to stand by your own personal moral code even when you are being beaten to a pulp" (paraphrased, of course, but that was the gist of it).

Do I personally agree with Oda's views in this case? Not really, especially in Bellamys case. But I certainly don't think it makes him sexist.

Zik

@Nouryoku:

Toriyama

Toriyama is more like Oda in that regard no? Majority of Z fighters and strong villains are male. We got Android 18 but she's akin to Reiju (modified body). Bulma is like Nami, a normal woman that is helpfull due to her ingenuity.

Kishi suffers accusations similar to this thread from the Naruto fandom.

Yes, Oda and Toriyama are more similar in that regard but even with her being a modified android he still gave us 18. Its why I bring up Watsuki next cuz Oda is even closer in that regard given the lack of strong swordswomen or strong female fighters in Kenshin.

Karou is basically Nami (and a lot like early versions of Nami and Kuina). Misao is Tama and Megumi is like Robin.

Toriyama at least had 18 beat the shit out of Vegeta and in an alt timeline at a part in the death of most of the Z fighters. She's also remained strong and hasn't back peddled in to motherhood and let Krillin become stronger than her.

It doesn't seem like Oda will ever have that type of physical female character that also retains some beauty.

I bring up Kishi if only to say he's done a far better job than Oda. He specifically made several young female characters and developed them personality wise and as accomplished ninjas. Yeah the core story basically came down to Naruto and Sasuke but Sakura was a vital part of team 7 but to focus more on other antagonist type female characters Kishi even did it there too.

wolfwood

I don't mind the Kuina flashback at all, but it is a bit jarring to have that sort of real life weakness in a manga where people survive magma fists in the chest and having their skulls smashed in with five ton metal bats. But i guess OP had a little more grounded feeling back in easto brue.

Nilitch

@wolfwood:

It turns sexist when this mindset is only applied to one gender. Ace arguably has more of a pretty face than most women in OP but because he has a wang you don't have to go and think oh what a waste of a pretty face when he gets gutted like a fish or mutilated any which way. If Oda is fine with mangling and deforming his male bishies every which way but is squemish to do the same to the girls because of their delicate beauty or whatever then that is a clear double standard based on sex

!

wolfwood

The link seems to be broken

Nilitch

yeah, don't know what happened. It should be fixed now.

Anyways, it's Kiku being mutilated by Kaido. When she lost her arm that flew all over Onigashima

Cyber-Robin

I honestly opened this expecting it to be a thread about that SBS where Oda taught us how he draws women tbh.

wolfwood

@Nilitch:

yeah, don't know what happened. It should be fixed now.

Anyways, it's Kiku being mutilated by Kaido. When she lost her arm that flew all over Onigashima

Oh yeah now i can see it. Good example of gore, way more than a Nami character would ever experience, but i can't help but think that Oda is only okay with her getting the full Ace treatment because she is trans. But then again i can't peer into his mind so i shouldn't assume too much.

Tjfarmer

One example that has always bothered me: men are allowed to be scarred and show off their battle wounds as a form of character development, but women don't get that same treatment. Zoro still has all his scars - even the ones from one he tried cutting off his legs to prevent himself from being turned into wax. Which was basically a gag. Luffy still has his scar from childhood and Marineford. However, Nami, who has a dramatic scene where she stabs herself to get rid of a tattoo that's marking her as Arlong's hostage, doesn't keep her scarring and is unblemished. I know canonically she gets it covered up with a new tattoo in Loguetown, but it's always disappointed me we don't have any visual reminders of her backstory or history like we do the male characters.

electricmastro

@Tjfarmer:

One example that has always bothered me: men are allowed to be scarred and show off their battle wounds as a form of character development, but women don't get that same treatment. Zoro still has all his scars - even the ones from one he tried cutting off his legs to prevent himself from being turned into wax. Which was basically a gag. Luffy still has his scar from childhood and Marineford. However, Nami, who has a dramatic scene where she stabs herself to get rid of a tattoo that's marking her as Arlong's hostage, doesn't keep her scarring and is unblemished. I know canonically she gets it covered up with a new tattoo in Loguetown, but it's always disappointed me we don't have any visual reminders of her backstory or history like we do the male characters.

Interesting how some people have been led to think that the tattoo covered up the scar, even though the scar can be seen when Nami was at Reverse Mountain.

Zik

It really makes you wonder when you look at the early Nami design that has visible scars and is an amputee.

Guess all the amputee/robotic prosthetics went to Franky.

Zik

Thinking about how the OP really rings false cuz its not like Oda didn't create an entire island of female warriors who all know haki.

Captain M

@electricmastro:

Interesting how some people have been led to think that the tattoo covered up the scar, even though the scar can be seen when Nami was at Reverse Mountain.

https://i.ibb.co/YXc15qx/EA7-CADF3-6-A8-C-4226-85-BC-A60-D4-FCC9-A43.png

I can't blame the people that do, Oda stopped drawing the scar at all as early as Alabasta.

It's not in her wanted poster, which should display it prominently.

And she certainly doesn't have it in Wano.

In fact, I haven't reviewed every shirtless Nami scene to confirm it, but I'd be willing to hazard a guess that the Reverse Mountain scene is the last time the scar was ever drawn. So It might as well have been covered up by the tattoo.

kevo_koma

@wolfwood:

Oh yeah now i can see it. Good example of gore, way more than a Nami character would ever experience, but i can't help but think that Oda is only okay with her getting the full Ace treatment because she is trans. But then again i can't peer into his mind so i shouldn't assume too much.

Or maybe because her character was depicted as a hardcore Samurai warrior and could therefore take such a hit, while a Nami character is depicted as a pretty normal person with other important skills outside fighting.

I think its weird to ascribe gender politics into such a simple thing.

wolfwood

@kevo_koma:

Or maybe because her character was depicted as a hardcore Samurai warrior and could therefore take such a hit, while a Nami character is depicted as a pretty normal person with other important skills outside fighting.

I think its weird to ascribe gender politics into such a simple thing.

Replace Nami with Hancock, Robin, Hina, Stussy, Reiju, Kalifa or anyone other woman who also fits that should be tough enough criteria and i would still lean toward Oda applying his protective mindset toward non-gonk women