Maybe Oda decided to change the flag because the original design didn't evoke the same effect he desired. A good many people seem to be associating the flag design with Nazism, the embodiment racism, genocide, and just pure evil, thus the controversy. That's probably not what he had in mind for the White beard crew in first the place. Hey, even artists should be allowed to change their minds sometimes.
Whitebeard's Flag to Be Changed?! (Ch. 434 Tidbit)
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Him told that… so it says, that's what I get for skimming. Well, to hell with that, now I'm offended too. "Dame" my butt.
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Maybe Oda decided to change the flag because the original design didn't evoke the same effect he desired.
No…he didn't change his mind. The quote specifically says he was "told" not to.
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Oh so Oda was actually forced to change it against his wishes? Well that is lame then. Though still, I can't say I torn up over it. I got used to be being different from the anime version a long time ago.
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Look at it this way:
Would you rather have Oda spend all his time defending himself against all that controversy with little time to write One Piece?
OR would you rather have Oda change the symbol and continue to write One Piece without interruption?
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It really is annoying, the bad rep the swastika is getting. The Nazi swastika is not even the original design. The original swatika is a mirrored manji (or vice versa, whichever came out first). Heck, the word 'swastika' itself is a Sanskrit word, with 'swast' = health and 'tika' = symbol/sign/mark. So literally, 'swastika' means 'symbol of health' and is meant to impart prosperous health on a person(s). People back home in India have this mark on their doors, in their houses, and in various auspicious places. It has absolutely nothing to do with what the Nazis did or what they stood for.
I'm willing to let most of these things slide. Let's face it, the avergage anybody who's not Indian just can't care enough to learn about my culture, much the same way the average Indian can give a rat's about any other culture. But when it comes to cases like the swastika, these symbols/concepts are known worldwide and people should be educated on these things. Ignorance in these matters makes things worse, especially a symbol such as this is used by multiple cultures worldwide.
EDIT: In retorspect, my rant turned out to be rather useless, as when I sat back and thought things over for a second or two more, I realized that it makes no difference to Oda's story. But anyways, I'll leave it up, since there are a few people who wouldn't know about the Hindu connection to the swastika. I'm a teacher!!!
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Regarding Whitebeard:
People, Whitebeard's not a bad dude at all, which makes him the perfect final antagonist for One Piece. Do you lot know why Luffy v. Croc is considered the best battle in all of OP? It's because that battle was fought on multiple levels of understanding; Luffy wasn't just physically fighting Croc, their fight was a metaphorical manifestation of a conflict of ideologies. This is why I like Luffy v. Bellamy so much; what that fight didn't offer in terms of unique/interesting combat it made up for in being emotionally profound.
That being said, manji translate to the term "well being", which is likely what Oda was trying to convey about Whitebeard early on without telling much directly about him. Look at what Buggy comments; he said Whitebeard was truely devoted to his friends and would go to any length to protect them.
Basically put, all this illustrates to me that Whitebeard, like Roger, is ideologically simmilar to Luffy; in addition to Whitebeard's massive strength, that means both Luffy and Whitebeard will have an epic battle, since they are both competing for the same prize, One Piece.
Very true. Which is why among the dozens of high level potential opponents Luffy would have to overcome to become Pirate King, DoFlamingo and Akainu are the most likely to face him. DoFlamingo because he's Bellamy x 10 and Akainu… Well it's self explanatory. "Justice vs Freedom", or something corny like that.
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No…he didn't change his mind. The quote specifically says he was "told" not to.
Does this change apply to the SJ and the tankos, or just SJ?
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Yes he was told that the symbol had to go, but that doesn't mean he has to absolutely do what he's told. I mean what are they going to do, stop publishing their most popular manga because its mangaka is being disobedient? Either the flag design didn't matter enough to him to put up with the minor controversy it may have caused, or maybe he was just simply in agreement with those who wanted the flag design to go.
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Oda should jump from Jump and go to a manga magazine that doesn't restrict it's mangaka…..
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@Fat:
Yes he was told that the symbol had to go, but that doesn't mean he has to absolutely do what he's told. I mean what are they going to do, stop publishing their most popular manga because its mangaka is being disobedient?
Something like that. Remember, Oda wanted to add a little bit in Loguetown showing Usopp getting his new goggles, and Shueisha prevented him from doing so; since they own the rights to One Piece, they can fire Oda and hire someone else to continue on the series.
Sucks, I know, but that's the sad truth of the matter.
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Wow that's messed up. An artist not having complete control over his vision is crime. I couldn't deal with being forced to change my creations. In essence, it's not your true vision. Sad
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Yes he was told that the symbol had to go, but that doesn't mean he has to absolutely do what he's told. I mean what are they going to do, stop publishing their most popular manga because its mangaka is being disobedient?
Japanese societal studies isn't your strong suit I see.
I'm sure he could refuse. But there are worse things they could do to him than just stop his work (which I imagine they could also do). Not going along with 'the norm' or orders from higher up doesn't work the same way in Japan as it does in many other places.
I'm sure people in many other countries are cool about bitching until they get things their way but that doesn't float over here. There's a way to conduct business and if you don't adhere to it, you're in for a very uncomfortable ride. Take Horiemon for example… ^_^; Not that he didn't bring that on himself.
The point of the matter is, Oda didn't change his mind on a fancy as you suggested in your post.
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When the fuck did Jump get so god damn picky?
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Wow that's messed up. An artist not having complete control over his vision is crime. I couldn't deal with being forced to change my creations. In essence, it's not your true vision. Sad
You realize that's almost universally the case, right? Where the creator of something doesn't always have complete control over his/her creation? The only exception I can think of in all of history where someone retains complete control of a "child project" would be J.K. Rowling, for obvious reasons. And, even at that, a lot of people, and I mean a heck of a lot of people, are upset with her control over Harry Potter, since she's free to "pervert the minds of today's youth" however she pleases.
That's one of the benefits of creating something in obscurity, though; there's more freedom in working with a little known title such that corporate and fan pressure are virtually non-existant to distort the course of the project.
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You realize that's almost universally the case, right? Where the creator of something doesn't always have complete control over his/her creation? The only exception I can think of in all of history where someone retains complete control of a "child project" would be J.K. Rowling, for obvious reasons. And, even at that, a lot of people, and I mean a heck of a lot of people, are upset with her control over Harry Potter, since she's free to "pervert the minds of today's youth" however she pleases.
That's one of the benefits of creating something in obscurity, though; there's more freedom in working with a little known title such that corporate and fan pressure are virtually non-existant to distort the course of the project.
Yep, I'm aware of how the system works & I Agree 100% with what you''re saying.
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Japanese societal studies isn't your strong suit I see.
I'm sure he could refuse. But there are worse things they could do to him than just stop his work (which I imagine they could also do). Not going along with 'the norm' or orders from higher up doesn't work the same way in Japan as it does in many other places.
I'm sure people in many other countries are cool about bitching until they get things their way but that doesn't float over here. There's a way to conduct business and if you don't adhere to it, you're in for a very uncomfortable ride. Take Horiemon for example… ^_^; Not that he didn't bring that on himself.
The point of the matter is, Oda didn't change his mind on a fancy as you suggested in your post.
With these comments, I'm really intrigued by how this came about now.
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So it's fine in Bleach, but not One Piece?
This just got even more stupid.
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Yeah that's really weird. Japanese don't have the same relation to WW2 than Euros and Americans when it comes to Nazism, I remember Toriyama drawing Dr Slump characters in Wehrmacht uniforms, I'm curious to know what provoked that change. I don't think Shueisha would really care about overseas complains as OP sells first and foremost in Japan.
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Wait till they make Kubo change it.
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So..One Piece can be ripped from Odas grasp and be given to someone else to continue how he pleases and he isn't able to do shit? ….fuck japan, and if the same thing happens here, fuck business period.
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So..One Piece can be ripped from Odas grasp and be given to someone else to continue how he pleases and he isn't able to do shit? ….fuck japan, and if the same thing happens here, fuck business period.
We're dead serious. Did you know Kodansha published a second Mahou Sensei Negima! manga to compliment Studio Shaft's new anime? It's called Negima?! and basically pools all of Ken Akamatsu's characters in an entirely new scenario; it's almost like an alternate world, and it's not being drawn by Akamatsu. The original manga and this new manga are being published alongside one another, though in different magazines.
Did he have a say in it? Akamatsu has never really talked about the series, almost like he doesn't acknowledge it exists; it's not his place to do so, though, since he's earning money with his original manga and it's official licensed through Kodansha.
Welcome to the world of business.
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With these comments, I'm really intrigued by how this came about now.
Well, I don't wanna sound like Mr. Conspiracy theorist but the only answer I can come up with is that OP's popularity around the world plays a part in it.
Removing the symbol makes literally no sense whatsoever in Japan. I'm dead-fucking-serious. If you walk around any given town that has a map you'll see…..you know what? Screw that.
Look at this. This is an Excite map of where I live:
Either I'm in Nazi Germany or a place with a fuckload of temples. You be the judge. Look how common the mark is dudes. Changing it makes NO SENSE in Japan.
I can only imagine it's for the international market or to avoid offending foreigners. Which brings up a great post from Media….
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One thing that a few people will probably ask as well: does this mean that Ace may show up sometime in the next chapter? I mean, unless the flag gets its own panel, I'm sure not a WHOLE LOT of people will notice. But seeing Ace's tattoo changed will certainly spark some attention, which probably is indicated by his information.
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This is really hitlers fault, for him being unoriginal
and a bad manAND UNORIGINAL people for the most part who are, aware of one piece, is by good chance aware of the symbol's true meaning
yet, i think oda wants to bring in alot more people, who are not familer in the culture (in a non-OMFG4kid-KHAAAAAN way)
and lets face it, people who aren't as familer with japanese culture, or symbols, will jump to conclusions
i think ODA is making the right choice with this, trying to appeal to everyone and send the general message to everyone, without making people spaz
but this is still Hitler's fault..
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This sucks darn ass that they have to pressure Oda like that. And Terek, they won't hire another person to countiue the series, that will mess up One Piece badly.
I'll wait and see what happens on friday.
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We're dead serious. Did you know Kodansha published a second Mahou Sensei Negima! manga to compliment Studio Shaft's new anime? It's called Negima?! and basically pools all of Ken Akamatsu's characters in an entirely new scenario; it's almost like an alternate world, and it's not being drawn by Akamatsu. The original manga and this new manga are being published alongside one another, though in different magazines.
Did he have a say in it? Akamatsu has never really talked about the series, almost like he doesn't acknowledge it exists; it's not his place to do so, though, since he's earning money with his original manga and it's official licensed through Kodansha.
Welcome to the world of business.
I wasn't talking about spinoffs, I meant literally the current One Piece manga being pulled away from Oda, sitting a new mangaka in front of it and continuing it from there.
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If, as Greg says, he was instructed to remove it, that of course completely changes things.
Boo on censorship.
I heard a debate on NPR recently where a couple of women were actually arguing that Buddhism world-wide should be forced to abandon the manji and swastika; that this was unfortunate and the fault of Nazis, but that the symbols just had too many bad associations and thus were offensive and should be dropped. This kind of reasoning is bizarre but pervasive.
So to get even, all we need to do is go commit genocide wearing a Shonen Jump logo, right? …duck
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Sorry to get off topic, but does this mean they can fire Kishie if they wanted and have somebody else finish Naruto? :wub:
That sucks that he was FORCED to change it, I thought he did it because he wanted to this changes everything.
And why dont authors have the rights to there own dang mangas? They have all the sexual and violence but they do this?
Another off topic question: I wonder how much they made Kishie change Naruto if any.
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I wasn't talking about spinoffs, I meant literally the current One Piece manga being pulled away from Oda, sitting a new mangaka in front of it and continuing it from there.
Which I can't see it happening, Oda started One Piece, he planned it, he created it and without Oda it won't exist. It's not like Shuiesha told him to write One Piece; Oda started One Piece from his mind.
If One Piece is pulled from Oda and givin to another people, that would be the most fuckest thing I ever saw, that is like taking my DNA away and givin to another person.
One Piece will screw up and fans will be mad as hell and Oda should not be a wimp. He would buy back the rigths, and find another studio where he can contiunes his work. Even after One Piece ends it will still be Oda's right and even after he dies One Piece still contiune.
After Oda dies, One Piece is still his creation and One Piece will be hold by Shuiesha or set his own studio.
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I don't think there's any great mystery here. To me, it just smacks entirely of a Shueisha suit, making a line call, basically not wanting to cause too many headaches for foreign partners and punblishers, to whom which the manji symbol may be (in most cases, definitely will be) misinterpreted or mistaken for the Nazi swastika, by their general reading market.
Following on from omae, obviously I wouldn't think any of the opposition stems from within' the Japanese public, family groups or whomever. As I would think, nay expect! them to naturally be able to identify and understand the meaning of the symbol, and easily differentiate between the appearance & the meaning of the manji & the swastika. Unlike in many western countries, where that symbol, be it tilted at a 45° or not, is, and always will be heavily intrenched in the minds of the western world, as a symbol of nazism. It's unfortunate, but it's also an inescapable reality.
So as a means to avoid red flags & from a business standpoint, this doesn't entirely shock me. But as a fan, and now knowing that Oda's hand was forced, it does sort of piss me off.
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Sorry to get off topic, but does this mean they can fire Kishie if they wanted and have somebody else finish Naruto? :wub:
That sucks that he was FORCED to change it, I thought he did it because he wanted to this changes everything.
And why dont authors have the rights to there own dang mangas? They have all the sexual and violence but they do this?
Another off topic question: I wonder how much they made Kishie change Naruto if any.
I reckon they can fire Kishi when they see fit.
Yes, being forced to do something against your will with your own creation is horrible.
To your last, question, I expect two reactions: "Kishi sucks, stop making excesses for him" Or "It's possible they made him change his manga." I expect the first one to be the general response from the people here.
Anyways, I hope Oda doesn't end up having to change his storyline to something else because of what Jump wants. We are lucky(for now) that it was just a symbol being changed.
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I dunno. I didn't really care much for the old version of Whitebeard's flag, for pretty obvious reasons. It made me feel uncomfortable, even if I knew that the author meant it for different reasons and not to promote a regime hellbent on racial war. I'm not going to lose sleep over this issue.
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Lame!
Its bad enough the animes change these things(oddly enough the Bleach anime left in the symbol on the various bankai though…), but now the manga is being censored.
That sucks.
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Another off topic question: I wonder how much they made Kishie change Naruto if any.
You bet they did. Even Toriyama openly said in interviews about things he made/changed due to his editor, that's common. But this censorship is lame, indeed.
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So in other words, japan companies just simply order this symbol to be changed cause they feel when the anime/manga does get spread around it wont leave any problems behind? Thats the only reason I could see it being edited in like the animes.
Hm, I think I'll be using the manji in art and character designs some more, its a very interesting symbol.
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I wonder if there will be an influx of black pirates now?
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I was reading the thread and maaaan, that's really sad and kinda bad. well life continues but how will be the tatoo on ace's back???? If I remember he had the flag of whitebeard draw there…... if oda can make something more badass why not? well, shueisha sucks!! sending a letter for den ¬~¬
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D: Noez.
Although this news hasn't even been confirmed yet, the new chapter may prove it wrong.
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Pople don't realize that the manji has shown up in Shonen Jump on multiple occasions. Heck, even volume 8 in the english version shows a manji on a merman's stomach. So don't go blaming America for this.
Blame the Davy Back Fight.
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It's worth a good bitching to get it outta the system but it isn't worth losing sleep over. I just hope we find out Oda had some purpose for it and that won't be lost. I wanted to know if it had some connection to Whitebeard's beliefs or strength.
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I'm not bothered by the change…
...But wow, my Whitebeard flag pictures I put on wikipedia have suddenly gotten around quickly, which suprises me. :O
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Even Japan's not safe from Political Correctness….
Figures......
In addition, Whitebeard's flag is cleary not meant to be Facist in anyway. Any one who's read or seen enough of One Piece knows that Oda is not a Fascist and does not condone Facism in any way.
Why is everyone so paranoid over these kinds of things? Shueisha and Oda are extremely overreacting to a problem that isn't there, imo. If anything, Buddhists and other peaceful groups who use the Manji as one of their symbols are the ones who ought to be offended that they're getting censored.
Japan has nothing to do with the Nazis, so why should they censor it?
Oda has no obligation to censor his work. He has done nothing wrong to deserve such stupidity!
Shueisha Co., what are you smoking?
Oh, and Death to Political Correctness!
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@Master:
Japan has nothing to do with the Nazis, so why should they censor it?
Axis powers.
Study up on your WWII history.
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That sucks. I liked the original Manji.
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You know… when "Blade: The immortal's blade" (or something on these lines, I don't know the original title) was published in my country, the editors simply put a footnote on the manga stating that the manji was different from the swastika, that they had different-oriented arms, and that one had nothing to do with the other... And then there was zero bitching about political correctness. It would be much simpler to do that... But hey. Let's not fuss about something we don't even know it's the truth, aye?
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Damn, I so pissed right now…
But, if this true, I know that Oda will give good explanation why this happens. Maybe he will answer us in the future Shanks & Whitebeard conversation.
Oh yeah, and new flag doesn´t hast to be so lame what it is in anime.
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@Master:
Oh, and Death to Political Correctness!
What. The. Heck.
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Dude, the entire political correctness movement was started so that people who were sensitive to stuff that had a psychological impact on them would be striken from the media/television. The movement in principle, like a good many things, was well-meaning and good intention; just because it's gotten out of hand does not mean you should denounce the entire idea. We wouldn't want sterotypes to be running rampant in our society again, would we?
Political correctness in today's world is just a tool used my elites to manipulate, confuse, and harm other people; it was intended to protect people, not cause damage, and it was only meant to be temporary until people became neutral to the "offensive stimuli" that was the problem.
That is, political correctness was NEVER INTENDED to be carried on by the Baby Boomer Generation (who collectively are the anti-Christ of Biblical lore), because they have no basis in being offended by swastika.
It's just gotten out of hand, not unlike the polarization/overzealous state of religion in state and the private sector, as well as the class distinction between the haves and have-nots.
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@joekido:
Which I can't see it happening, Oda started One Piece, he planned it, he created it and without Oda it won't exist. It's not like Shuiesha told him to write One Piece; Oda started One Piece from his mind.
If One Piece is pulled from Oda and givin to another people, that would be the most fuckest thing I ever saw, that is like taking my DNA away and givin to another person.
One Piece will screw up and fans will be mad as hell and Oda should not be a wimp. He would buy back the rigths, and find another studio where he can contiunes his work. Even after One Piece ends it will still be Oda's right and even after he dies One Piece still contiune.
After Oda dies, One Piece is still his creation and One Piece will be hold by Shuiesha or set his own studio.
Not true.
Dragonball is a prime example. Toriyama isn't dead yet, but Dragonball is. Dragonball GT was not drawn, edited, or even approved by him in any way, shape or form. It was simply created for the money. SSJ4, Golden Oozaru, Bebe, Dr. Mu… All of that was completely created by Toei in an attempt to cash in on the popularity. And guess what? It actually worked.
As for the whole manji/swastika thing, don't be stupid. A swastika is diamond shaped, a manji is square shaped. Manji are seen all over Asia on the palms, feet, and belly of Buddha statues. In local towns, manji are used to mark Buddhist temples on maps. It's a symbol of power and good luck, a symbol that very well symbolizes Whitebeard, because he is the "Strongest Man" in the world, and despite his great illness, he hasn't died yet. So in my eyes, that makes him very lucky and very powerful.
Political correctness is fine, to a point. But not when it changes the artwork. Restricting it is a much viable alternative. Disclaimers, even. I mean, Viz put a disclaimer about the manji in volume 9, and that's just fine by me. But editing the artwork and thereby destroying the author/artist's original intent is pure bullshit. It's the Catholic Inquisition all over again. Do you want that? I don't think you do. Getting the shit beat out of you for not following the ways of corrupt men in pointy hats is not fun. (And I'm not reffering to now, so whoever's Catholic, please do not take offense). Nor is getting persecuted for being a witch for being different. Actually using your brain was a crime back then. You were expected to sit down, shut up, pray, and do the exact same shit that you did every other day. Independent thought was a crime, and that's what censorship will bring us back to.
It's all about freedom of expression. Any censorship is just wrong.